Correction: In my previous comment, I meant to say 'that AFGHAN women need more of a place at the negotiating table'.

Jardine,

As you say, " .... a man in Australia, a man in Afghanistan, a man anywhere, should have similar rights before the law as women in Australia, Afghanistan or anywhere."

Of course. And vice versa. And don't put words where I didn't write them: I wrote, "People are absolute, not relative. They are not theoretical concepts, they exist in real life, not just in anthropological texts, and they are entitled to similar rights to anyone else who exists 'in real life'."

Nothing much relative there, mate :)

And yes, gender IS a social - and cultural, and political - construct, a reality of societies. It's a reality that has to critiqued continually. I thought that was a principle of feminism ?

But I suppose you know better.

KIllarney,

As you write: " .... I meant to say 'that AFGHAN women need more of a place at the negotiating table'."

Yes, indeed. And what place do you think they could take under your mates, the Taliban ?

Joe

Nobody should have any rights.

Rather, our freedom should not be robbed to begin with.

If that was the case, then we wouldn't need to receive back any rights as small change.

I did support the war in Afghanistan for the sake of freeing the women there and the musicians too. I may have been naive, but at least some of those freedoms were restored as a result. Not enough, but some at least.

Joe

'And what place do you think they could take under your mates, the Taliban ?'

None, whatsoever. That was the underlying point of my previous comment.

Because of the 'failed-state' mess made of Afghanistan by superpower meddling, the best that Afghan women could possibly hope for now is for the occupation to continue ad infinitum - a sad and sorry state of affairs. Even then, it's only a tiny minority of women, and only in Kabul, who are free to live lives not confined to the purdah and burqa.

The occupation is merely playing the role of the Little Dutch Boy. Because of all kinds of global financial and political reasons, the US can't keep it up for too much longer.

Possibly, after many post-occupation decades, the Taliban might evolve to a more moderate position on most things - but only if the superpowers stay out of their domestic affairs, and the likelihood of that happening is just about zero. The warlords, however, will never capitulate on anything, unless bribed.

The whole picture is very bleak. The only lesson to be learned is for the West - especially the Left - to stop being hoodwinked by Western lies and propaganda into invading, occupying and sanctioning countries in the name of human rights and women's rights and all this stupid R2P business.

The propagandists have gotten away with it on Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and now Syria - only to send women's rights in those countries plummeting back to the middle ages.

Killarney,

"Possibly, after many post-occupation decades, the Taliban might evolve to a more moderate position on most things" ....

Are you half-witted or what ? Are you serious or are you having a lend of us ? The Taliban - moderate ?

And after ...... how many decades ? Women will have to wait .... how long ?

Bugger it, let the Yanks stay as long as they like, if it means that some women can go to school, or can work, or can just lift their heads up, like they used to do under the old monarchy, BEFORE the Taliban. Shove your 'moderate Taliban'. What the hell planet are you on ?

Joe

Joe

Oh, dear! So many insults … and only 250 words to reply.

Well, here goes …

Remember the Mujahadeen, the Taliban’s pre-incarnation? Those plucky little anti-Soviet darlings smiling at us from the back of their Toyota pickups, with their AK47s (or whatever) and cute little hats?

The fact that the US was funding, arming and training a bunch of theocratic dudely fanatics who didn’t believe women should go to school was of no consequence. All that mattered was that Afghanistan must never become socialist.

And it was the left-wing government of the 70s (not the medieval monarchy) that instituted the many reforms which, among other major social advances, gave women equal status to men and allowed the national literacy rate to climb above 2%.

And as for continuing the war/occupation to keep women out of burqas (hypothetically speaking of course) look at it this way … The cost of the war and occupation so far has been $1.6 trillion – approximately $120 billion per year (plus ongoing interest on loans to finance the war).

If the US were to withdraw from Afghanistan and save the US Treasury $120 billion per year, why not repatriate to the US those women and their families who do not wish to live under the Taliban? Even if hundreds of thousands of women took up the offer, this would still represent only a tiny fraction of the cost of continuing the war/occupation for another 10, 20 or 50 years.