Thank you, Bruce Haigh. This is a timely and well argued reminder that we are being swept up into another highly suspicious and manufactured 'war of choice' with little or no debate, with both majors in Canberra singing from the same song sheet and with a tame MSM doing what it can to make us all willing accomplices.
It was with a sense of astonishment that I watched the opening footage in the latest round of missile launches followed by the usual shots of buildings exploding. Have we learned nothing is the last decade? This approach didn't work last time, it didn't work the time before that, and it's dollars to doughnuts it won't work this time either.
Wake up, Tony. You're being played like a piano. You are being walked into another never ending war with a guaranteed outcome of more, and more determined, enemies for us all.
This is not our fight. It is not our military's fight, just as it is not our disaffected citizens' fight. The contribution of neither will come to any good.

Tony is playing the Pied Piper role so he can further ingratiate himself with the imperial Yanks in Tanks.

Like all members of the U.S. organized and led Coalition, Tony leaves himself open to a sucker punch. For example, why are our planes and troops already over there? Doesn't it suggest indecent, thoughtless haste?

Bruce, you have done well to remind us of past failed policies and failures. Phoney Abbott, a consummate liar, is our latest leader without a brain. He joins a Conga Line of fools who don't understand what American Imperialism means or heralds!

Australia is aiding and abetting America, the duplicitous enemy of the free world.

A world controlled by the U.S. will be engaged in constant war for profit and for the benefit of the 1% of the world's Oligarchs and the Capitalists.

Big Brother is here! Support him at your peril!

Yes, Tony has gleefully followed the U.S. Into another useless, expensive war, all the while bleating about not having enough money for our aged and disabled people.

There is nothing a PM likes better than a war with the Middle East.
He can play on the minds of all the racist bigots in our country, and whip them all into a fervent Liberal-loving nation because they think Tony is going to protect us all from Islam.

More votes for Tony will follow from the unintelligent among us,

This approach has never worked before, and won't work this time.
We will lose Aussie soldiers, and have the usual mental health problems for life in many soldiers who do return home.
And still, the terrorists will remain with us...

Bruce you need to go see a chiropractor. Perhaps if you had your neck straightened you would be able to see the world as it is, rather than only being able to see/think left.

Your ridiculous statement, "Abbott imbued with the history and heraldry of mother England and steeped in the tradition and atmosphere, if not the scholarship, of Oxford", tells us more about your enduring sole membership of the Bruce Haigh admiration society, & your greatly inflated opinion of that particular persons ability, than it does about your subject.

As with most lefties, your ability to understand anything is greatly restricted by having only one eye available to see it with.

Just why you keep producing this garbage, & showing yourself to be so limited in your understanding, is a bit of a mystery. Perhaps it brings you admiration of the other dills, & that is enough for you

Maybe not Bruce.
Maybe he's inspired by thousands forced into sexual slavery, or the mass rape of entirely innocent women and CHILDREN; or maybe by the barbarously hacked or bullet riddled bodies of people, who just didn't/weren't bother(ing) anybody!
Maybe you personally could walk among that "inspiring" carnage booming, Romeo, Romeo, wherefore art thou?
Or "You shall have your pound of flesh Shylock, but not a single drop of blood!"
But no normal human, with normal human empathy could actually do so.
The real surprise here, Bruce, is the fact that this stone age brutality; not only just doesn't seem to bother you, but (judged by your very own words) you wouldn't lift a tiny pinkie, to help end it!?
I mean it's not like the victims of this stone age brutality were firing thousands of rockets into Isil territory, just to provoke an over the top response!
In your (getting a little touch personal their mate) arguments Bruce, you reveal much about yourself, rather than Mr Abbott.
I'm no Abbott fan, but believe we have reached a point, where standing and doing nothing about this medieval butchery, is simply not an option, nor is silence, which is considered consent!
If it were up to me Bruce, I'd put a couple of dozen drones aloft, flying around the clock in 24 hour shifts; and any time Isil raised its ungodly head, rain down on its parade with a metal storm, from all sides.
Bruce, if you don't yet understand, that this is a pernicious entirely evil cancer, that has to be completely excised, if only to save the rest of the body of humanity, then thank the lord and pass the biscuits, you're not in charge of anything; or indeed, have advice anybody important still listens to!
You'll have a nice day now, y'hear.
Rhrosty.

Yes, Suse...are you aware that the Abbott govt completely cut off Iraqi aid in the budget.

That was before the masterminds came up with the ISIS trump card.....(which can be deployed domestically too!)

"To top off Abbott's silly and alarming sabre rattling, we have heard little from the immature government he leads regarding the far greater threat to the world posed by the Ebola plague."

Regarding Ebola, the Abbott govt also cut funding to Australian scientists researching this virus.

Murdoch's News Limited and some other media corporations do indeed love the free (for them) theatre of War. All that action footage and drama.

If it bleeds it leads.
Preferably overseas.

Yet with Obama and Action Man Abbott at the helm might bombing the good fight in Iraq and Syria have the desired results?

It makes good sense to fight IS in the Middle East rather than in Melbourne and Sydney.

Suseonline, "And still, the terrorists will remain with us..."

That is a very timely reminder that there is no word yet on what action has been taken if any, to correct the reported bungling and corruption in the Immigration Department (Dept of Immigration and Border Protection).

Immigration policy and multicultural policies need to be reviewed.

Suse,
The reason "Racist Bigots" aren't flying into a frenzy is because they're a figment of the SJW's fevered imagination, just like the "Viagra rape squads" in Libya and the babies left to die on the cold concrete floor in Kuwait in 1990.
Notice how, once again all these Feminist tropes such as "rape as a weapon of war" are being co-opted by the warmongers and regurgitated by the faux progressive, clickbait media? Why don't you worry about the criminal misuse of your narrative and stop worrying your little heads over the "Racist Bigots"?

In case we were wondering how this would play out in the short-term, with all the foreseeable and inevitable long-term consequences, the following is the lead in a current article in the Guardian: "National security laws allow whistleblowers to be jailed and give Asio sweeping powers to gather online data."
It looks like we too are headed for police state status. Admittedly, as an occupied country our range of activity is limited, but I would still have hoped for a bit more back bone from our Federal pollies

Don't worry halduell, they won't be much of a problem here.

We've all seen them play at war among themselves, & kill lots of civilians in cold blood, when they can catch them. However we have also seen what happens when these middle eastern Muslims run into real men.

John Howard was a man of vision. He saw this coming, & tried to remove our guns before we could deal with this garbage. Fortunately you don't need weapons to clean out a rat infestation, A this one will be no harder.

Bruce, I generally agree with the trust of your argument, but you say this: "No doubt the United States feels compelled to contain the damage from past mistakes." Here I respectfully disagree. The US does not make "mistakes". Its long history of invasions, occupations, bombings, assassinations and attempted assassinations all serve various goals perfectly well. Those goals are the generally the further enrichment and power of the 1% whom Eisenhower presciently warned against in 1961.

In the Middle East there are specific goals that are being pursued. You can read about them in Hersh's 1997 article in the New Yorker, and by reading about the Yinon Plan. The fact that whole societies are laid to waste in the process I suspect worries them not at all.

The analogy with Vietnam is a valuable one. Many of us are old enough to remember the "fight them there or we will have to fight them here" BS when it was never about fighting "communism" or any other bogey man du jour, as has been amply documented in a number of excellent books. Unfortunately there are some (including some of the above commenters) who remain captive to this nonsense.

Just a small correction. The Americans sabotaged the 1954 (not 1964) Geneva negotiations that ended the France - Vietnam war because they knew that if genuine free elections were held, as provided for in the peace treaty, Ho Chi Minh would have won. Can't let democracy prevail when there are wider (oil, drugs, "containing" China etc) issues in play.

Giday James O'Neill

Your incessant, bloody-minded, Putin foreign policy outlook hereby qualifies you for Pilger's Svakom Alice award http://youtu.be/CTAzu4rq360 .

Enjoy

Six weeks ago I looked up ISIS on the CIA website. Said there were about 3000-4000 fighters; a loose coalition, disaggregated. Last week the same website stated there were 40,000 well trained ISIS fighters. Next week?

Pete, as I regard Putin as head and shoulders above most so-called western leaders I suppose I should take your reference as a compliment. However, to actually focus on the issues Bruce raise and the points I made, where exactly can you point to error on my part (as opposed to having a different view from you.)

As for your link, you are sinking to ever lower depths of juvenile conduct. Pathetic in a grown man really.

[Deleted for abuse.]

Au contraire, individual,

Most of the "decent folk on OLO" make allowances for the fact that you are so utterly bereft of articulate debating skills that you can rarely ever post anything more sophisticated than calling fellow OLOers "morons".

Pathetic!

Im with Bruce and James O'Neil. It seems like a well reasoned assessment of the situation to me and I liked the reference to Shakespeare too. Shakespeare was/is perhaps the most astute observer/analyst of the perennial follies of the human condition. Remember too that there was no "God" on Shakespeare's stage - just human beings dramatizing their naked malevolence on to the world stage.

The comparison to Vietnam has some use but we now live in a completely different world wherein, via the internet etc everyone and everything is instantaneously inter-connected. Furthermore the entire world is now saturated with deadly weapons (conventional, chemical, biological and even potentially nuclear) and they are in the hands of every group that has a real of imagined grievance, some/many of which have murderously "reasonable" intentions - the psychotic thugs in Iraq for instance.
But then the Bush/Blair/Howard coalition of the killing had shock and awe murderously "reasonable" intentions too - the lying rodent was awarded the USA "freedom" medal by the village idiot from Texas for services rendered. The mission to completely destroy the culture and infrastructure of Iraq was well and truly accomplished.

Anyone for Blow Back!

Nobody has the remotest clue as to how things will fan out. We can be sure that whatever is done (or not done) there will be all sorts of unintended consequences for the millions of human beings in the various countries of the Middle East, and for humankind altogether.
The possibility of a global conflagration (WWIII) is very much on the cards.

we have heard little from the immature government.
Bruce Haigh,
Isn't the situation now the legacy of your time in the diplomatic Superannuation circus ? What can you point at as a positive in our society that came from your taxpayer funded years ? Is what we have now all you people could produce ? If you were so good at your job why is it we have so many problems now ? Ah I see, it's Abbott's fault.

Individual, as usual you go in for negative, personal insults rather than discussing the issue at hand.

Typical righties.
Are you and Runner bosom pals?

This approach to dealing with terrorists didn't work last time we went to war with Afghanistan, leading to the West allies pulling out after several years there, with nothing but dead and mentally ill soldiers to show for it.

I am disgusted our defence forces are forced into this again.

Suse,
They're not "our" soldiers, the ADF is now a politicised organisation, like the Police.
I was appalled by the sight of Commissioner Ken Lay holding a press conference with senior Imams this morning, surely the premier should have been the one leading the appeal for calm and cross cultural solidarity? I guess he was off at the grand final parade.
This is a serious problem, a young man is dead by the hand of the political Police and we're left with the suspicions that he was being pressured to become an informant, or being blackmailed and bullied by the security services until he finally snapped and attacked them.

'In all from 1962 – 1972, 60,000 Australians served in Vietnam, 521 died and 3,000 were injured. Nothing was achieved.'

I beg to differ. A great deal was achieved.

Combined with the 1950s Malayan Emergency and the 1966 Indonesian massacre of 1-3 million left-wingers (which destroyed the world's third largest socialist entity), the American War (which the Vietnamese call what we call the 'Vietnam War') effectively destroyed any possibility of any form of socialist government from forming anywhere in South-east Asia.

It's comforting to know that our lads (including the older brother of my primary-school best friend, killed in the American War) kept the world safe from the threat of a political system that put national independence before colonial exploitation and people before profit.

Apologies to Lord Laurence Olivier and all those ardent youngbloods who go into ideological meltdown at Shakespeare's rousing Band of Brothers speech.

I'm sorry to have to break it to you, but Henry V was a meglomaniacal mass murderer.

He invaded France purely and simply to consolidate his rule over England, because his friendly family heritage consultant told him he was entitled to much of northern France (which included the medieval equivalent of oil - wine production).

Agincourt propaganda dictates that HV defeated the French against overwhelming odds - 5,000 French against a few hundred English. However, his victory at Agincourt was entirely due to the superior technology of the newly invented long-bow, which he obsessively perfected before his French campaign.

That same propaganda dictates that at least 3,000 French died at Agincourt, but fails to include the fact that most of them died AFTER the surrender - not before. Yes, Lawrence Olivier was astonishingly handsome and looked cute with his funny medieval haircut, but Henry V was a total asshole and a narcissistic mass murderer.

No wonder the West loves him so much!

Bruce the lefty goose, provides another rallying point at which the anti-Abbot group can contribute their baseless vilification of an effective and successful PM. Abbot has his deficiencies, and he is only about a thousand times better than any PM provided by Labor, so he has not reached the standard of an ideal PM.

However, the rabid comments give us a reminder of the vacuous shallowness of the Abbot haters, like DavidG, for example:” Australia is aiding and abetting America, the duplicitous enemy of the free world”. He sounds like a terrorist promotion.

Disgraceful, but typical of the pathetic mentality of Bruce's toxic group.

Jay,

"This is a serious problem, a young man is dead by the hand of the political Police and we're left with the suspicions that he was being pressured to become an informant, or being blackmailed and bullied by the security services until he finally snapped and attacked them."

Not a serious problem at all, the problem was solved with one well placed shot, although there was probably a bit of luck involved as the shooter had just been stabbed.

Bruce Haigh's article is one where he apparently considers that nothing is worth fighting for. Everything is the fault of the Americans. And Iraq is the new Vietnam.

I totally reject Bruce's mindset.

The comparison between ISIS and Nazi Germany is so clear that it amazes me that any person like Bruce could call themselves a liberal and oppose meeting force with force. it is still "peace at any price", for you Appeasers eh Bruce?

The problem is not the USA it is Islam. ISIS is doing exactly what the Prophet ordered and did himself.

Vietnam was essentially an anti colonial war "where most of the people were yellow and the rest were red." This war in Iraq is essentially a civil war between the Sunnis and the Shiites with Christians, Kurds and Yazidis the main vicitms. The Sunnis probably now wish they had never heard of ISIS may even now prefer the Shiite government. They are probably sick and tired of being ruled by the village idiots with their Sharia Law because like most fanatics ISIS have no idea how to build anything, only destroy, destroy, and destroy. The Sunnis probably hope that the yanks came cove and save them from these religious morons.

The sensible thing to do would be for the Allied armies to drive ISIS back into Syria which should be very easy to do. These charactes are alright shooting unarmed civilians but they can not stand up to marines or an M1A1 tank. A political settlement can then be reached with the allies demanding that the Shiites stop persecuting the Sunnis and rule on behalf of all Iraqis. If the Shiite government in Baghdad blow it this time, then they are on their own.

"The comparison between ISIS and Nazi Germany is so clear ...."

Lol!

"....A political settlement can then be reached with the allies demanding that the Shiites stop persecuting the Sunnis and rule on behalf of all Iraqis....."

Double Lol!

Lego,
I can't think of a single point on which to make the comparison between the NSDAP and ISIL, probably because I know quite a lot about both movements.
ISIL is more like a gang such as the L.A Crips or MS13, they take over a small patch of turf and control the population through fear while creating no go zones for the authorities.
ISIL is actually a confederation of such gangs who contract out work to still smaller gangs, for example they allegedly bought the hostage Sotloff from Syrian bandits for $25,000.
If the allies manage to knock off a few of their "Original Gangsters" ISIL will be bogged down in a series of turf wars between the up and coming bosses, that's what the strategy of fragmentation and degradation is all about.
Google the words "fourth generation warfare", this is what the allied commanders are taught these days, they know what they're doing.

What do you think would happen if we just all turned our backs, and let those nice people at Isil, have their way.
After all, someone has to pay a price for what Longshanks did to Wallace in Scotland, what the English did in Ireland, what the Romans did to the Greeks, and what the Greeks did in Egypt and Persia. Not to mention the Indian wars!
Or the bloody civil war in America.
You know, the one that put an end to slavery, and made the Arab nations virtually destitute, when this lucrative trade collapsed.
All of which justifies what Isil does now, and without any "civilized" limit!
Which is exactly how Henry the IV behaved, when invading France during the Napoleonic wars, and therefore perfectly justified?
And lets not forget what Richard the Lionhearted got away with, during the crusades, which took the lives of 6 million Muslims!
All these Mass Murdering WHITE CHRISTIANS must be made to pay!
Fortunately Isil has seen this and has reinstated Slavery, and legal ownership of all lessor races; disbelievers one and all, and therefore, can be legitimately used as and when the "need" arises!
For any purpose, and the younger the better!
Someone just has to carry the can for these historical outrages!
Little wonder Killarny loves these shining example Isil people so much, and along with Suse, defends them and their absolute right to do anything to anyone; particularly innocent women and children, with an indefatigable passion that is inimitable; and has to be seen to be believed!
What an incredible example for our young people to follow or be inspired by!
Perhaps even to the point, where they set off to join Isil, to help them with their wonderful civilizing and charitable endeavors!
Well done Killarny and Sues!
Your parents would be so proud and Isil is so well served by your strenuous recruitment efforts here!
Rhrosty.

Look here, between LEGO and RUSTY I'm not sure that I can continue to participate on OLO. Then if you add in RUNNER and INDIVIDUAL and JOE as well, the forces of blind ignorance and intellectual poverty are truly awe-inspiring!

Thing is, on nearly every forum, there are people exactly like the aforementioned. You can't escape them no matter how hard you try. They thrive in damp corners and dark places and spread like malignant cancer.

Thing is, Bruce, you can't argue with such people. They have all the answers and they ram them down our throats with unabashed zeal. They are never wrong and, with a passion, they hate people who put forward different views. They cling to their programming like poop to a baby blanket.

All I can say is: please, please give us a break from your mindless, endless, black and white dissertations. Take a long holiday or join a Buddhist retreat.

You won't be missed!

@ David G, Saturday, 27 September 2014 9:55:13 AM

With respect, from your post you are a zealot too.

Should you be entertaining the possibility that you could be wrong, or at least that the people you malign might be as different to one another as you imagine yourself to be to them? Bundling your critics into one basket and dismissing them could be black and white thinking, splitting.

see the feminist/regressives are getting very desperate indeed. At least 2 more years of Abbottphobia although more than likely 5. Little dummy spits from very immature brigade. They ignore that Mr Shorten has the same foreign policy as Abbott. Can't use any logic so they have resorted to name calling.

To think David G could write

'then if you add in RUNNER and INDIVIDUAL and JOE as well, the forces of blind ignorance and intellectual poverty are truly awe-inspiring!'

u are a laugh David G

DG. As always, when presented with inarguable facts, you are reduced, to the common for you, practice of quivering personal invective or childish name calling.
If you can't debate the facts, with the actual rebuttal facts!?
Then better you keep your mouth closed and have others only suspect you are a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt!
You'll have a very nice day now, y'hear.
Rhrosty.

Rhosty "Little wonder Killarny loves these shining example Isil people so much, and along with Suse, defends them and their absolute right to do anything to anyone; particularly innocent women and children, with an indefatigable passion that is inimitable; and has to be seen to be believed!"

Really?
Show me one post of mine that shows my defence of any terrorists Rhosty, and if not then you need to apologise To me for such a nasty lie.

I have never defended any terrorist because I abhor violence of any sort.
All I am saying is that I believe the U.S. and its allies, really do not give a damn about the people of Syria, or surrounding countries at all.
They want to protect the oil of course.

If they gave a damn about protecting people from warmongering hordes then surely they would be there in the African countries where thousands have been dying due to war.

This sort of "war against terror" did not work in Afghanistan, where troubles continue unabated since the defeated Allies left, and we are still battling terrorism.
Why is Abbott allowing Australian defence forces to get involved again?

He sends in 800 police to round up the 'terrorists' in Sydney last week.
How many did they end up actually charging?
It was awful what that dead guy did, knifing the police, but I think worse has been done to the police here in Australia by criminal bikie gang members!

'More votes for Tony will follow from the unintelligent among us, '

wow I did not know you were going to vote for Tony Susie. What a surprise.

"I have never defended any terrorist because I abhor violence of any sort."

I'm with you, Suse! Only primitive barbarians applaud and condone violence and killing.

Blessed are the peacemakers! Well, once they were but not in a world run by 'Christian' Americans and Capitalists Thugs.

Here we go again. The UK has now voted to join the fray, promising weeks and months and possibly years of war, ever more war. But no shock and awe this time. It will be surgical strikes with smart bombs and targeted kills only. And like us here in Oz, the overwhelming vote in favour was guaranteed after an agreement with the Labour leader Ed Miliband. Here is was Shorten who signed on.
None of them, neither those in Government nor those in Opposition, can see any other way to combat a group of killer thugs, and what does that tell you about their level of intelligence and imagination?

Abject apologies Suse, sorry if I just lumped you in with the mob that enjoys the comfort of opinion, without the discomfort of thought!
Yes, and as someone bearing the scars of shrapnel and bullet wounds, I too abhor war.
It our soldiers who are always asked to fight them!
Never disapproving stay at home pacifists Suse!
It be great if we could just wag a disapproving finger, at the likes of Idi Amin, Pol Pot, Herr Hitler, Stalin and his modern day Nemesis, a sabre rattling Putin, to end the atrocities that appear on the nightly news.
Unfortunately, and throughout the entire length and breadth of human history, no amount of appeasement or pleading has ever once deterred the warmongering dictator, just emboldened them to even worse excesses!
And nowhere is this been more obvious that in the M.E., and the Arab tin pot potentates.
Our common silence has only been seen as permission for more of the same, or even worse excesses!
And nowhere more obvious or pertinent, than in the battered wife syndrome!
Isil in my humble view, are far worse in their criminal activities, and in lack of respect for innocent women and children!
And therefore standing Idly by, merely wagging a disapproving control freak/professional pacifist finger, is simply not an option.
But a time for men to step up, and stop this cancer here and now, least it affects the rest of humanity.
One wonders, how many millions of lives could have been spared or saved, if the world just had the testicular fortitude to take on Mr Hitler, when he first annexed Austria, instead of waiting until he tried to do the same with Poland, and in so doing, started WW11!
Rhrosty.

Hi David,

ISIL.

"Only primitive barbarians applaud and condone violence and killing."

Is that who you meant ? ISIL/ISIS, enslaving women and beheading children ? Shooting thousands of men and dumping their bodies in ditches ? Driving [this week] 140,000 Kurds out of their homes ?

Is that what you mean by 'barbarians' ?

Then it appears that we agree :)

Thank you.

Joe

Rhrosty,
I guarantee that as in all wars 99% of the victims of ISIS are men and boys, Chivalry is the biggest sucker deal going around and everyone from the consevative Muftis to the Huffington post is beating up the women and children angle.
This morning I received by email yet another slew of atrocity photos taken in Syria in recent days and in these, as with all the hundreds of gross images I've seen over the last three years not one featured a woman or a girl.
We've seen these lies about rape and sexual servitude before and the tired old "rape as a weapon of war" and "femicide" nonsense yet in a few months or years we know that such claims will be disproven and no longer spoken of.
Rape and the abuse of women is not normally a feature of warfighting and insurgency except in sub Saharan Africa where it's endemic even in times of peace, you'll notice Boko Haram publicise and boast of their capture and conversion of women yet there's not a shred of evidence of ISIL bothering the women in the areas they control save for executing their menfolk?
The aircraft and special forces are being sent to assist the men of Iraq and Syria in defending themselves against a violent transnational gang, the allied commanders have been very clear on that point. Asking the Iraqi and Kurdish forces to fight an effective, well armed and entrenched fighting group like ISIL without air support is asking too much, the Iraqis and Peshmerga are brave but they're not suicidal.
As for your other comments, they're nonsense, there's no relation between the events of 1938-39 and today, most people who talk about National Socialism and WW2 in this context typically know nothing about either. Germany didn't start WW2, Britain, France and Poland did and the Hitler regime was both lawful and wildly popular both at home and abroad, there's no comparison to the collection of Arab bandits and deluded Liberal educated adventurers who make up the core of ISIS.

Jay of M,

Wow. I think you have displaced Arjay in the Conspiracy Stakes. That post was amazingly lunatic. I don't think Arjay can beat that :(

Joe

Joe,
How so?
Chivalry is a stupid justification for military intervention, we all now know the lies told about the atrocities in Belgium in 1914.
http://www.bl.uk/world-war-one/articles/historiography-atrocities-the-long-shadow
It's immoral to justify war in such a way,men and boys are overwhelmingly the victims in Iraq and Syria, they see their women, children and old people to a place of safety then return to fight for their villages and shrines.
The Generals are being honest about their role, the media and politicians are not, it's right to support the men who are taking a stand but as all of us know Western society doesn't value men and boys so they have to shame us all into supporting the intervention by over hyping the impact of ISIS upon the weaker sex.

Then there's the other stupid, unnecessary justification for war which is used every single time, "Because Hitler".
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2408405/Assad-joined-Hitler-Hussein-John-Kerry-says-Syrian-president-used-deadly-sarin-nerve-gas-Damascus-attack.html
Saddam=Hitler
Ghadaffi=Hitler
Assad=Hitler.
Putin=Hitler
Muslim Brotherhood=Nazis
Taliban=Nazis
ISIS=Nazis
Islamism=Islamofascism

I'm OK with the idea of Australia's fighting men going to support Iraqi and Kurdish fighting men simply because to render aid to those brave enough to take a stand is the honourable, manly thing to do, if you guys have to come up with all these bogus justifications for action it hints at an insecurity within yourselves.

https://www.facebook.com/AskDrBrown/photos/a.190367064322237.55437.109430102415934/988166697875599/?type=1&theater

Isis is not Islamic

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/09/27/woman-beheaded-at-oklahoma-food-distribution-center-police-say/?cmpid=cmty_twitter_fn

54 year old woman gets beheaded in US by muslim. CNM are not sure whether the man's religion played a part in it? Soon you will be able to earn a degree at uni in denial or can u already?

Dear Rhosty,
I never said that Australian men with iron-clad testes, or without, should ignore the plight of women and children being terrorised by the men of ISIL did I?

All I am suggesting is that running in like a bull at a gate like last time Australia raced in to 'save' the people of Afghanistan, and failed, is a bad idea.

I am also asking why we failed to race in and save the millions who have been displaced or dying at present from the conflicts in Africa or other war torn countries? Aren't their women and children just as worth saving as those in Iraq and Syria?

Runner,
It's a "workplace incident", like the Fort Hood shootings.
Black on White crime doesn't fit the narrative so there won't be anything but the most muted response by the media but can you imagine the hysteria if a White man had beheaded a Black woman?

More excuses from John Elder:
http://www.theage.com.au/national/mad-and-sad-the-falling-into-jihad-20140927-10mz7y.html
Runner it's all our fault, these poor little "special snowflakes" are only turning to crime because we White, patriarchal, cisgendered males oppress them and drive them to "hyper masculine" forms of self expression....and he's not talking about playing league and chasing skirt at the pub afterwards.
Elder's point about Negroe males is valid but it doesn't transfer across to other races, Muslim males are supposedly "Hyper Masculine" yet they appear so effeminate, that's why they're laughed at, they're like pitbulls in floral dresses.

It is not unexpected that the same ultra left whinger that warned us of a possibility of "War with Indonesia" if we turned back the boats, is the same prophet of doom warning of apocalypse in Iraq.

Firstly, this is not a new technique, the same air power destroyed Qaddafi's army in weeks, and unlike Afghanistan the landscape is flat and devoid of cover. The point of the air strikes is to cut off their sources of revenue, destroy their transportation which severely limits their ability to attack or defend positions, and finally to take out their heavy weapons so that they are constricted to close quarter conflict in which mobility is essential.

Bruce, the answer to your queries about what the coalition will do if any of your wildly improbable scenarios evolves, is that they will deal with them then.

SM,
Air power also destroyed the infrastructure of National Socialist Germany and Japan and it was every bit as scientific and intelligence dependant as it is today.
As I said earlier, when faced with enemies armed who carry modern weapons it's too much to ask of the Iraqis and Peshmerga that they go into battle without close air support, we wouldn't expect Australian troops to do it.
Yes it's up to the Arabs to sort out their own mess but there won't be too many of them left if they're thrown at ISIL in some grotesque re-run of the "kindermord" in Flanders 100 years ago.

It is all very depressing isn't it.
These wars, or just one long war, has been going on for 1400 years.
As I see it, aside from nuclear weapons, there is no way to stop it all except to just keep
on fighting generation after generation.

One possibility might be to isolate the Middle East.
We put up a permanent ban on travel into or out of the moslem countries.
Some really big problems with it, but the continuing wars might well be a bigger problem.

By the ban I mean no airline traffic, no shipping, no internet or phone connections.
No diplomatic contacts, nothing. If their armies cross the borders then they are destroyed
by any available means, no holds barred.
We would have to deport all moslems to there otherwise we would have a fifth column.
They can fight each other as much as they like and they are told we will not intervene.

Oil would be a big problem, but it is going to be a problem anyway. So whats new ?

It all sounds way out to me also. So don't tell me I am mad, I know it !
"I am as mad as hell and I am not going to take it any more !"

Bazz,
That's the dilemma National Socialist Germany faced, they largely solved it but at horrific cost not only to their enemies but to their own nation.
The problem is where do you send third and fourth generation Muslims who are less Western/Liberal in outlook than their grandparents?

'One possibility might be to isolate the Middle East.'

My God!!

'We put up a permanent ban on travel into or out of the moslem countries. / Some really big problems with it, but the continuing wars might well be a bigger problem. / 'By the ban I mean no airline traffic, no shipping, no internet or phone connections./ No diplomatic contacts, nothing. If their armies cross the borders then they are destroyed by any available means, no holds barred./ We would have to deport all moslems to there otherwise we would have a fifth column. / They can fight each other as much as they like and they are told we will not intervene.'

Graham, for God's sake! Do something about this! What has OLO sunk to?

This is 'free speech' gone completely out of control! This is not scraping the bottom of the barrel. This is tearing up the floor and slipping all the way through.

As I said ... Graham, for God's sake, do something!

Jay, not sure I understand the connection to Nazi Germany.

Killarney, don't get your knickers in a twist.
It will not happen, I know that, but people all round the world
are looking for answers to this problem.
The only solution so far is to have a war with the moslems every hundred years or so.
The Islamists know this and they are now adopting the migration and
the policy of large families to achieve victory and convert the west to Islam.

What is your solution ?

Bazz

'Killarney, don't get your knickers in a twist.
It will not happen'

There's nothing wrong with my knickers, Mr Muslim-Concentration-Camp-Man. Check out your own knickers. I'd hate to think what's lurking there.

Your views are insane and dangerous.

Well Killarny, a concentration camp might do for a temporary solution,
but I note that you have no solution.
I guess your solution might be put it off and it might all go away,
until after the election anyway.
Alternatively you think there is no problem anyway.

Don't let me put ideas into your head, think up one for yourself.

Bazz,
What I meant was that ethnic cleansing doesn't work, it can never work because it means burning down your own society in the process, perhaps you're not fully aware of the appalling price the Germans paid for the NSDAP's racial programs?
Not to mention the Serbs and the Iraqis to give two recent examples, any attempt to remove any one particular group from Australian society, no matter how benign or non violent would result in a bloodbath and the destruction of the way of life we enjoy, that's why nobody is seriously advocating such a program.

Jay, >Australian society, no matter how benign or non violent

Well that is the point isn't it.
Resign yourself to more wars ? Look at India, it is still going on all these years later.
Pakistan & India armed themselves with nuclear weapons to keep each other at bay.

I have a feeling as the Islamists have adopted the tactic of conquering by birth rate
it will result in civil war in different European countries as the moslems try to enforce Sharia Law.
The question then becomes would we be able to avoid either civil war or partition as did India ?

What is your solution ?

Bazz,
Islam has no hope of taking over the West, for that to happen they'd need unanimous support from Europeans Christianity and enlightenment values couldn't unify Europeans and Islam is a far less sophisticated creed than that.
What you'll see more and more are alliances between Islamic and European political tendencies along the left-right divide, so called "moderates" on the left and the Salafists and such on the right.
It's already happening in Hungary with nominally "right wing" party Jobbik and Dugin's Eurasian school in Russia.
http://www.ibtimes.com/strange-bedfellows-hungarian-far-right-jobbik-party-embraces-muslim-nations-seeks-eurasian-ideal
“Islam is the last hope for humanity in the darkness of globalism and liberalism.” - Gábor Vona.
I agree with that sentiment in that if Islam loses then we're all done for, I'm for these types of alliances as long as people go into it "eyes open" and understand exactly what Islam is and what it is not.

Bazz

'Well Killarny, ... I note that you have no solution.'

Yes I do. The solution has been there for well over 100 years. We (the West) have to get out of the Middle East and stay out of the Middle East. In short, leave the Middle East alone.

There is NO other solution.

And once the West finally stops being so thick-headed (if that's at all possible) and gets itself out of the Middle East once and for all, THEN building a wall around the Middle East might be a good idea - not to keep THEM in, but to keep the West OUT!

Killarney,

You're an idiot: what do you think Iran and the Saudis will do if all those obstacles in between them are removed, like Iraq ?

Obama has a massive task, a historic task really, to keep the two main Muslim rivals apart: to keep the Saudis and Jordan and perhaps Turkey busy confronting ISIL, while Iran is persuaded to keep a distance, as long as its client, Assad, is reasonably secure.

If anything, and to sort of second guess the Yanks, they need to degrade but not to destroy ISIL, because if it is totally defeated, then there is not much between Assad and the Saudis. And if the Saudis get involved, trying to put their people in charge of Syria, then Iran will hop in, boots and all, to protect Assad.

Yes, it's sort of a bit more complicated than you might think. Or were you just trying to be provocative, with your seemingly witless comment ?

Very clever !

Cheers,

Joe

Jay, Allah has commanded that the rest of the world is to be converted to Islam.
They are commanded to convert or kill.
Now this no airy fairy ancient concept, it is being enforced NOW!
The moslems right from the beginning in the 7th century have been making war
against their neighbours in the Arabian Peninsular.
There have been many wars initiated by the moslems and many have been into Europe.

They make no secret about it, as their percentage in the population increases they press
for more Islamic compliant rules.
They do not wait for a majority, take their activity in Tower Hamlets in London;
The Islamic patrols harras English women about their dress telling them they are prostitutes
the way they are dressed and that it is a Sharia Law area which they must obey.
They are erecting signs warning that you are entering a Sharia Law area.

There are plenty of videos showing examples.
It is worse in France where police have lost control and French law does not apply in
those suburbs and in some cases large parts of some cities.

Joe

‘what do you think Iran and the Saudis will do if all those obstacles in between them are removed’

Go on living, loving, being with their families, working, pursuing hobbies and interests … the usual stuff. Or hasn’t it ever occurred to you that these people are actually human beings?

In fact, if the West butts out of the entire Middle Ease, all these countries may finally get a chance to peacefully co-exist, instead of having to snuggle up to the Great Superpower Protection Racket and sell one another out in order to avoid being bombed back to the Stone Age.

‘Obama has a massive task, a historic task really, to keep the two main Muslim rivals apart’

No. He has a massive task to butt out of the Middle East and stop bombing everything and everyone that his uber-paranoid, psychopathic minders tell him to. The ‘Muslim rivals’, if left alone, will sort themselves out. Or … again, hasn’t it ever occurred to you that these people are actually human beings?

‘If anything, and to sort of second guess the Yanks, they need to degrade but not to destroy ISIL …’

No. They just need to stop funding, training and supplying weapons (and machine-gun equipped Toyota Humvees) to them. Then ISIL will lose interest in making beheading videos for propaganda purposes and go and get a proper job.

Killarney,

My God, you really are an idiot ! Do you understand anything at all about the complexities of the Middle East ? That, for example, BOTH the Saudis AND Iran are contending for control over BOTH Iraq and Syria, each on spurious but similar grounds - that their particular brand of Islam is dominant in one (but not in the other) and 'therefore' their brand should rule in both countries.

And of course, even within each of those powers, it is much more comlicated than that. After all, in almost all of the countries in the Middle East, there are large minority populations - Sunni in Shi'ite countries, Shi'ite in Sunni countries. And all manner of other groups in between, Christians, Yazidis, Turkmens, Azaris, Nuris, Druse, etc., etc. And Kurds, of course.

So Obama's job is to keep a lid on much of it, and if possible, without bringing the US army back in. If he can manage that, he deserves another Nobel Peace Prize.

Joe

Killarney, to not be in Arabia was the centre point of my "wayout" suggestion !

I have no problem with that, but the real problem is to keep them in Arabia !
When they immigrate they don't do it for a new life but to bring their old life with them.

It is crazy of course, but that makes no difference.
I must make up a list of countries invaded by moslems, it would be an eye opener for many people.

It is a fundamental of the religion that they takeover the rest of the world for Allah.

Joe

'So Obama's job is to keep a lid on much of it ...'

Duh! You must be right, Joe. I AM an idiot. And here was I thinking his job was to run the US.

As the Declaration of Independence says: 'We hold these truths to be self-evident ... Life, Liberty, the Pursuit of Happiness and Stopping Muslims from Killing Each Other.'

Bazz

'I must make up a list of countries invaded by moslems, it would be an eye opener for many people.'

Really? I think most people would find it a bit of a yawn. After all, it's the Christians who hold the all-time record for invaders par excellence. In fact, I can't really think of a single country anywhere in the world that the Christians HAVEN'T invaded.

Anybody know of one ...?

Killarney,

Oh dear.

Okay. How to start ? In faraway countries, some countries have what they call nuclear weapons. Others may not but may also have nuclear weapons. A major ally of a country called Saudi Arabia is another country called Pakistan. It has nuclear weapons. Those countries are ruled by people who are Muslim, but are mainly what are called 'Sunni' Muslims.

Another powerful country is called Iran. It also has nuclear weapons, and it is also Muslim, but it is what is called 'Shia' Muslim.

Sunni and Shia often don't like each other. They have fought nasty wars for 1400 years - that's before even your grand-dad was born !

In that part of the world called the 'Middle East', there are many countries. Almost all have a mixture of Sunni and Shia Muslims. One country where most people are Sunni has Shia rulers, it's called 'Syria'. One country which is mostly Shia used to have Sunni rulers, but now has Shia rulers, it's called 'Iraq'. But everywhere, Sunnis want Sunni rulers, and Shias want Shia rulers.

But in all of those countries, there are many other different sorts of people, loosely called 'minorities'. Usually, they don't care who rules them, as long as they aren't getting beheaded. 'Beheading' is a common practice in Muslim countries, especially Sunni ones, where a man with a sword or a butcher's knife, cuts someone's head off. At the moment, it's a very common practice in parts of those two countries called 'Iraq' and 'Syria', even of children. Children's heads, I mean.

Many of those countries are friends with some of those countries, but some are real enemies.

That might be enough for tonight. I'm sorry it's so complicated already, but we'll work through that tomorrow.

Uncle Joe

Give up Loudmouth, he is one of those who will get us destroyed while he
argues that there is nothing to worry about.
It just will not happen here as the moslems here are so different.

Yes, I agree with Bazz. Give up on me, Loudmouth.

I've only stayed in the exchange this long because I like heckling people who believe the West has a sacred and profound duty to save the world one humanitarian bombing at a time.

The West has lots and lots and lots of bombs. So I guess we may as well keep using them.

Well Killarny, you still have not explained how we defend ourselves from the Islamists !
Sure we can stand aside and watch them slaughter thousands but when they return their
attention to us, what do we do then ?
I am sure the Serbs and the Greeks, to say nothing of the Spaniards don't want them back.
Meanwhile we have our own fifth column.

"Well Killarny, you still have not explained how we defend ourselves from the Islamists !
Sure we can stand aside and watch them slaughter thousands but when they return their
attention to us, what do we do then ?"

(Thanks Bazz:)

Killarney,

The question is - how do we defend ourselves on OLO from hysterical chappies who bleat ad nauseam the govt's confected "terror hysteria" ?

Hi Wounded Goose,

I guess, if you don't want to boost hysteria about the government's policy against terrorists, then don't confect it :) I'm assured, relaxed and comfortable, insouciant even, about their competence to handle wannabe terrorists.

Killarney, I never give up on anyone, no matter how simple and uncomprehending they may be. So let's continue:

Read my earlier post first, to refresh your memory. I'm sorry it's so complicated.

Some people who believe very, very strongly in aspects of their religion, which permit - no, Killarney, which require - them to kill anybody who disagrees with them, by shooting or beheading, or by kidnapping their women and turning them into sex slaves (ask your mother), have taken over huge areas in two different countries, one mostly with Sunni Muslims, and the other with mostly Shi'a Muslims, and have driven out and murdered tens of thousands of Christians, Yazidis, Turkmens, Kurds and many other groups from that territory.

They captured huge amounts of weapons, equipment and money when they captured Iraq's second biggest city, called Mosul (it used to be called Nineveh). Now they are using those weapons against a weak Iraqi army, and more specially against the Kurds. The Kurds occupy land in Iraq, Iran, Turkey and Syria, and want their own country (there are thirty million Kurds, so why not, you might ask), but none of those governments want to give it to them. That's one Very Big Problem.

In Syria, a dictator named Assad has been fighting against his own people for nearly four years now: he belongs to one Muslim group, but most people in Syria belong to the other main one. As well, some people there just want a democratic government and they don't care so much which Muslim group people belong to. But they are very weak, because everybody is attacking them. That's another Big Problem.

[to be continued below]

Killarney,

Are you still paying attention ? Good, let's continue.

They are all fighting now against each other, and all against some nasty people, called terrorists, and the most powerful group of terrorists call themselves 'Islamic state', and have appointed their own 'caliph': a 'caliph' is looked on as the religious head of a movement to eventually make all the people in the world Muslims - if they don't agree, they will be beheaded or shot. Sooner or later, that will mean us. That's going to be a Very Big Problem for a long time.

But there's no reason to worry just yet, our government is watching the various situations closely, and we can relax, knowing that we'll be protected from harm.

More next time, Killarney: that's enough to take in for now.

Uncle Joe

Killarney,

Never mind Loudmouth's deprecating style...he finds it impossible to debate without employing it - usually in tandem with great dollops of sarcasm.

Here's a commentary sans Loudmouth's patronising blather.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/14/opinion/sunday/thomas-l-friedman-obamas-strategy-for-fighting-isis-isnt-all-about-us.html?_r=0

".....our enemy is barbarous, our regional allies are duplicitous, our European allies are feckless and the Iraqis and Syrians we’re trying to help are fractious. There is not a straight shooter in the bunch.

Consider Saudi Arabia. It’s going to help train Free Syrian Army soldiers, but, at the same time, is one of the biggest sources of volunteer jihadists in Syria. And, according to a secret 2009 U.S. study signed by then-Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and divulged by WikiLeaks, private “donors in Saudi Arabia constitute the most significant source of funding to Sunni terrorist groups worldwide.”

"Turkey allowed foreign jihadists to pass into and out of Syria and has been an important market for oil that ISIS is smuggling out of Iraq for cash. Iran built the E.F.P.’s — explosively formed penetrators — that Iraqi Shiite militias used to help drive America out of Iraq and encouraged Iraq’s Shiite leaders to strip Iraqi Sunnis of as much power and money as possible, which helped create the ISIS Sunni counterrevolt..."

"Before we step up the bombing campaign on ISIS, it needs to be absolutely clear on whose behalf we are fighting. ISIS did not emerge by accident and from nowhere. It is the hate-child of two civil wars in which the Sunni Muslims have been crushed. One is the vicious civil war in Syria in which the Iranian-backed Alawite-Shiite regime has killed roughly 200,000 people, many of them Sunni Muslims, with chemical weapons and barrel bombs. And the other is the Iraqi civil war in which the Iranian-backed Shiite government of Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki systematically stripped the Sunnis of Iraq of their power and resources."

"There will be no self-sustained stability unless those civil wars are ended and a foundation is laid for decent governance and citizenship..."

Wounded Goose,

Thanks so much for that - if Killarney reads it properly, then it saves me a couple of posts.

Yes indeed, it is a complicated set of situations, but something that no country - certainly not the US - can ignore. Whether it actually has solutions, is very difficult to say. I suspect not, at least not with the present configuration of competing forces.

The US has a very delicate task of calibration ahead, and for a very long time - to degrade ISIS, yes; but not to destroy it, because that, among many other factors, would open up all of Syria to Assad's forces against the very weak 'democratic' forces of the FSA. That and the defeat of ISIS would be likely to encourage the Saudis (and the Turks) to intervene directly, and that in turn would encourage the Iranians to get even more involved, and then it could be on. The Saudis would call on their Pakistani allies, with nuclear weapons, and Iran would call on their Indian allies, with nuclear weapons, and away we go.

Meanwhile, the Kurds would go all-out for a separate Kurdistan, against all four countries in the region, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Turkey.

So Obama has to keep a lid on it as much as he is able, but not to push the situation to a denouement, for a long time yet.

Unless you have a better idea ?

Cheers :)

Joe