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The Forum > Article Comments > If war is not the answer, what is? > Comments

If war is not the answer, what is? : Comments

By Richard Heggie, published 19/9/2014

A six step plan concentrating on understanding, discussion and humanitarian engagement is the only durable solution to ISIS.

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Quite correct - war is not the answer.

Discrediting the naïve ideology of Islamist extremists (ie their notion that basing a state on the enforcement of Islamic law can be a real solution to the historic problem that Muslim societies have endured). How this might be achieved is suggested in 'Challenging the Ideology of Islamic State').
http://cpds.apana.org.au/Teams/Articles/discouraging_extremism.htm#6_9_14

As the latter points out a primary focus on 'war' is likely to be just as counter-productive in dealing with the (so called) 'Islamic State' as it has proven to be in the past in dealing with other ignorant / alienated 'outsiders' who have resorted to violence
Posted by CPDS, Friday, 19 September 2014 9:04:09 AM
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Why do we try and keep the jihadists in Australia we should fly them to ISIS free of charge and hope they never return. If they attempt to return they should be denied entry to Australia.
Posted by SILLER, Friday, 19 September 2014 9:41:22 AM
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More "Ivory Tower" dreaming I'm afraid, fine principles and lots of words, I suggest the authors go try arranging all that with ISIS, see how far they get!
Rational solutions rarely work with the irrational, especially once religion enters the equation, there's apparently little room for rationality in the human head once "god" arrives, especially since "belief" requires the suspension of all logic and common-sense.
It's historically held that it's difficult to kill an Idea, but in this case I'll quite happily support killing all the brains that contain it, that works for me!
Posted by G'dayBruce, Friday, 19 September 2014 10:14:45 AM
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Onya, Bruce. It's great to see another 'thinker' on OLO!

P.S. My latest post is entitled, 'Should All Gods Be Beheaded'.
Posted by David G, Friday, 19 September 2014 10:37:01 AM
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Oh god! Ever heard of Bosnia Richard? This sounds like a rerun of the UN policy there, which proved as useful as tits on a bull.

Ever heard of Chamberlain, & his peace in our time bulldust? Yep, you sound just like him.

Anyone who refers anything to the UN for consideration is a total idiot, or is getting a quid out of it somehow. Which shoe fits mate?

It's not much good surrendering to these people Richard, they are just as happy beheading those who surrender as those who resist. It is the way they prove they are tough, cutting the heads of people kneeling in front of them.

How secure does your neck feel Richard? Sticking your head in the sand doesn't actually protect your neck you know.
Posted by Hasbeen, Friday, 19 September 2014 11:49:42 AM
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We keep coming back to beheadings as the core reason ISIS must be defeated, and if that means bombs away over Iraq and Syria, so be it.
Interesting that one of our true "allies" in the Middle East, Saudi Arabia, has lopped off the top of 46 people so far in 2014 (according to Human Rights Watch). It seems on of the non-violent offences eliciting decapitation was sorcery, believe it or not.
And "boots on the ground" has about as much meaning as the words used in any breakfast food jingle.
If we were really serious about stopping the spread of ISIS, then an alignment with Syria would be a good place to start. But as that would mean going against the perceived wisdom of Washington and Tel Aviv, and Jiddah where beheading for sorcery is all the go, then we probably won't be doing anything so sensible. Get ready for a long campaign.
Posted by halduell, Friday, 19 September 2014 12:13:28 PM
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Yes halduell, I think some of us might be becoming a little precious about beheadings. After all it is not that long since the French were beheading their noblemen & women with the guillotine, & the Poms were using an axe for the same job on those the king didn't like. To claim any superiority there requires a pretty short memory.

I am more upset by seeing hundreds lined up kneeling with their hands tied behind their back to be shot in the back of the head. Of course some Europeans were doing the same thing quite recently, but I didn't see that.

These people are vicious thugs, who want to kill us, & will do so any chance they get. Those here are going to kill, it is just a matter of when. We might as well bring it on now, rather than wait until there are more of them, & they are better organised.

The question is how many of us are going to suffer, & how many can they kill before we treat them as we should? My guess is many will be hurt before we act, & the result will not be nice.
Posted by Hasbeen, Friday, 19 September 2014 1:00:54 PM
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Phyllis Bennis's 6 Point Plan to weaken the influence of ISIS is simply pie in the sky. The first three points completely undermine any chance to stop ISIS from carrying on as they please.

Point one: Stop the airstrikes.

Point two: Make real the commitment to "No boots on the ground". No Advisers, trainers, CIA personnel and special forces.

Point three: Organize a real diplomatic partnership to deal with ISIS.

Hardy-har-har... who's side is she on? What a twit.

How is that people like Phyllis Bennis, Christine Milne, Poirot and several others on OLO don't understand that as soon as they arrived in Iraq to negotiate their 'Group Hug and Forgiveness Diplomacy' they would all be captured and held for ransom.

If the Greens truly they believe they know better, maybe they should organise a plane load of their executive committee and fly over for direct talks with ISIS and put their actions where their mouths are.
Posted by ConservativeHippie, Friday, 19 September 2014 1:13:18 PM
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This disaster seems to come about because the State allows all religions to proselytize their individual causes. I believe I am correct in saying that the majority in Australia do not believe that "God" exists other than inside individual brains.
The State should even things up by taxing religious organizations and using the proceeds to employ ethics teachers in every school. All that should be required of all citizens is broadly speaking, behaviour along the lines of "Do as you would be done by". All religions seem to excuse this cardinal rule if it suits them whether it is misbehaving with little boys, with the excuse that the Organization is more important than the individual or murdering people of other religious persuasions in the name of Allah.
Posted by Dickybird, Friday, 19 September 2014 2:27:32 PM
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War is the only answer these servants of Satan understand.
And the only thing that will stop them murdering millions of entirely innocent people, by the most barbarous means available.
Stopping the air strikes is not an option, particularly when they have been the one thing, that has stopped this trail of mass murder, dead in its tracks; and the only/real reason the Author wants them stopped!?
It's purely a defensive measure!
And not revenge as mendaciously contended.
Self evidently, the diabolically deliberately disingenuous/pro Isil Author is, I believe, applying his own fundamentally flawed standards on to all others/seriously twisting the actual truth.
And the air strikes has handed back the advantage to the sovereign Government, who is doing nothing more than defending its own territory and nationals, against insane medieval miscreants; that have absolutely nothing in common with Islam!
Satanism, and human sacrifice however/spilling innocent blood?
Perhaps?
And given like attracts like; and birds of a feather tend to flock together, more reason to use all means possible, to put an end to their (live by the sword die by the sword) murderous, intensely evil activities, permanently!
And just to serve survival/self defense, rather than the mendaciously mounted, ridiculously risible revenge theory!
Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Friday, 19 September 2014 2:29:44 PM
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The Government should make a start by cancelling the firearms licences of all known Jihardists.

John Howard would do it.
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 19 September 2014 4:23:39 PM
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I take it Richard H that you are only putting forward Phyllis Bennis point of view. I would hate to think that you endorse this view. If you do then your name certainly suits you, Richard H.

Heracles' killing of the Hydra. (a Seven headed serpent) (Parts taken from the Townsville Bulletin)

"The mythical hydra was eventually slain by Heracles, which he did by driving the monster from its cave lair with fire, before severing its heads with a golden sword and cauterizing the stumps to prevent regrowth.

A ripping yarn, but is an advisory tale as Australia prepares to do battle with the multi-headed Islamic terrorists who seem so intent to exterminate those who disagree with them.

Currently they are the only ones specializing in beheading but since Australia has deployed C130 Hercules transports as part of its Middle East contribution, perhaps change is literally in the air.

The RAAF FA18 Hornets will no doubt target the heads of the various murderous Islamic groups in an attempt to destroy them by fire rained down from above, but unless there is concurrent, supporting ground action replacement heads will rapidly appear.

To do task will require immense political courage. The Hercules’ symbolism might just be an appropriate emblem for the long task ahead."

But within the myth lies the answer.

A word of caution. As in Heracles death. Heracles wife was persuaded by Nessus to give Heracles a love Potion he had made, but, it was in fact a poison. So we need to be careful about who we take on as a partner, in faith, because it maybe the cause of our own downfall.

Heracles burnt himself to death due to the pain poisons caused.

Allow all those who want to go to the Middle East go, & take their families with them. Once they are all there in one place, eliminate with extreme prejudice.

Allowing those who wish to leave, rids Australia of the Radicals that would cause harm here. They MUST never be allowed to return even if they are Australian Citizens.
Posted by Jayb, Friday, 19 September 2014 8:20:00 PM
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the French were beheading their noblemen & women with the guillotine, & the Poms were using an axe for the same job
Hasbeen,
In today's Australia they use permits & fees !
Posted by individual, Saturday, 20 September 2014 8:41:10 AM
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Allow all those who want to go to the Middle East go, & take their families with them. Once they are all there in one place, eliminate with extreme prejudice.

Allowing those who wish to leave, rids Australia of the Radicals that would cause harm here. They MUST never be allowed to return even if they are Australian Citizens.
Jayb,
You got my vote ! It would probably do a world of good to send a few Lefties as well.
Posted by individual, Saturday, 20 September 2014 8:44:50 AM
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What pitiful creatures humans are. What intelligence they have is eventually strangled by their primitive, greedy, brutal, lustful nature.

That the Earth might be consumed by a nuclear fireball is not such a bad thing. The new creatures that replace humans might find a way to conquer human nature, turn us into peace-loving bipeds who will create a true Garden of Eden where love and sharing and rational thought prevail!

A romantic idea perhaps, but it sure beats the status quo!
Posted by David G, Saturday, 20 September 2014 9:02:03 AM
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David G:
We are territorial primates, for heavens sake, not flamin angels.
Look, if you see a malevolent cancer, that will surely kill the patient, unless removed with urgent alacrity. You flamin remove it, without wasting time on such imponderables.
Love may well be the most powerful force in the universe David!
But it's water off a ducks back, a sign of weakness, and a licence to kill, on the part of pure dark evil like Isil. Who surely take a madman's mouth-frothing/hard on/erectile pleasure, in such intensely extreme evil.
Beheading, and shots pumped into the back of the head, supplemented for pure pleasures sake, by pedophilia/buggery/rape, crucifixions and the living being buried alive!
Love that all you like mate, but there's only one possible cure!
Eliminate with extreme prejudice!
It is a malignant cancer, that absolutely must be eliminated; and before it can spread anywhere else/everywhere, and kill off the rest of humanity.
And just because some of us, have enough love to make/have offered the ultimate sacrifice for friends and family/perfect strangers?
Doesn't give you the right to somehow belittle that sacrifice/offer; with your patently warped world view, or a miserable mean coward's lament!?
No greater love hath a man than he would lay down his life for another!
And throughout the coarse of human history, these were indeed our finest hours and most magnificent examples.
Never have so many owed so much to so few!
You think maybe the six million Jews butchered by the also ran, evil personified Nazi's; could have prevented that outcome; by singing as they entered the gas chambers, cold shivering and terrified, "oh Lord cume by year," or, love is all you need; and or, Love is in the air, everywhere I look around! What a gas, eh?
Save the BS for those who are swayed by it, the moribund, the weak-minded, fatuous fools and the vulnerable!
Nuclear weapons?
Sure, but only as a last resort, and to save people; not the population reduction tool, your very own words tell us, you so clearly see it as!
Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Saturday, 20 September 2014 10:09:44 AM
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it sure beats the status quo!
David G,
Yes, this status quo is purely & solely due to people who expect everyone else to do the work. Like our Labor voting Public Service bureaucrats those religious morons too fleece off the producers but statrt whining when the the producers take a stand. Rather hypocritical wouldn't you say ?
Posted by individual, Saturday, 20 September 2014 10:16:32 AM
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Rusty, you are an impediment to human evolution. Your thinking is rusted on and is incapable of being freed!

Your narrow, black and white mindset, which you cling to like a paralytic drunk to a light pole, stops you from seeing the world as it is or could be.

You eulogize war, see goodies and baddies everywhere. You have no comprehension that some who claim they are goodies are in fact the most evil of all as they fill our world with lies, military bases and war.

Why don't you question your iron-clad programming for once in your life and become a thinker rather than an endlessly boring mouthpiece for Western propaganda?
Posted by David G, Saturday, 20 September 2014 10:30:15 AM
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David G: Why don't you question your iron-clad programming for once in your life and become a thinker rather than an endlessly boring mouthpiece for Western propaganda?

I think we did do a lot of thinking. Veni, Vidi, Vici, my feelings & came to the conclusion that the West is more "right" than the alternative. David if you wish to go to Syria/Iraq with a daisy in your hand saying, "Cum bye arh", I wish you luck. What do you want us to do with the body?

Do you want us to do what that Greenie piece of crap want's us to do & all convert so no-one will get hurt? Trouble is, convert to what, Sunni or Shia? Then the problem starts all over again.

You want to give up that stuff it's affecting you thinking.
Posted by Jayb, Saturday, 20 September 2014 1:28:35 PM
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David G.,

Accusing Rhosty,

"You eulogize war, see goodies and baddies everywhere."

And then advocating nuclear war to rid the world of humanity - can you see a slight inconsistency there ?

Okay, go ahead: take you own medicine. Or maybe it's easier to talk about it, endlessly, al fresco, over your soy latte, with your Utopian friends.

Actually, I'm sure that Rhosty - like me - doesn't see too many 'goodies' in the current crisis/war/'misunderstanding about Islam', but a multitude of baddies, some a shade worse than others. But please enlighten us - who do you see as the 'goodies' there ?

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Saturday, 20 September 2014 2:27:15 PM
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The David G's, Christine Milne's, the whole loony Green Party and anyone else who believe the USA is a bigger threat than Islamic terrorists should charter a plane to Iraq, negotiate a peace deal with ISIL and prove us all wrong. Show us how powerful a group hug can be.

Either put up or shut.
Posted by ConservativeHippie, Saturday, 20 September 2014 3:09:39 PM
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Hey! Who wants me to post links to pictures and video of ISIS fighters beheading a little boy who looks to be about four years old...yeah, nobody right?
Anyone who thinks they can negotiate or ingratiate themselves with such people has rocks in their head, if the peaceniks set foot in Syria with their White flags and peace treaties they'd be scooped up by bandits or the FSA and sold to ISIS, like the "journalists" Foley and Sotloff.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Saturday, 20 September 2014 3:56:20 PM
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Hi ConservativeHippie,

Simple test for the little kiddies' Green-tea-party:

1. Would you rather fly to/have already flown through or visited

(a) the US; or
(b) the ISIS -held areas of Syria and Iraq ?

2. Would you feel safer amongst the locals in:

(a) Newark or New Jersey, or
(b) Raqqa ?

Take your time, it's important to get it right :)
Posted by Loudmouth, Saturday, 20 September 2014 4:03:26 PM
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Loudmouth: Would you feel safer amongst the locals in:

(a) Newark or New Jersey, or
(b) Raqqa ?

USA

Newark or New Jersey, or Raqqa?

70:30

Boston or Raqqa?

60:40

Australia

Townsville/Mackay, or Raqqa?

95:5

Sydney/Melbourne/Canberra/Brisbane or Raqqa?

85:15

CH: Christine Milne's

I wasn't going to mention names. (Do you want us to do what that Greenie piece of crap want's us to do.) You know... Graham.
Posted by Jayb, Saturday, 20 September 2014 5:26:02 PM
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I certainly would never feel safe in the U.S.! Gun crime there is at an all time high and the police shoot you first then, if you're still alive, they ask you questions. They also have armored vehicles.

Of course, many americans live in cardboard boxes and under bridges. Many U.S. kids go to school and to bed hungry.

Most of the American-apologists on OLO know nothing about America, its unemployment, its murder rate, its poor health system, its racist, elitist social system, its imperial mission, etc.

If you think the U.S. is so great well phiss-off , begone!
Posted by David G, Saturday, 20 September 2014 6:41:11 PM
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Hi David G,

Nobody is suggesting that the US is perfect, although one could question who is 'responsible', and why it is, that some kids go to school and to bed hungry in the US. As quite a few kids might be doing tonight in Iraq and Syria, if they can find a place to lay their heads.

Move on: there are worse than the Yanks out there, but as soon as the Yanks start beheading and enslaving people, just let us know :)

One thing that really disgusts me is the self-pitying and breast-beating of apologists - like it or not, I keep re-playing in my mind that ghastly film clip of Hitler beating his chest and weeping (or making out) about how terribly Germany had been treated, therefore exterminate the Jews. So when I see a handful of people out on the streets with pre-prepared signs and rehearsed slogans, protesting against possible beheadings or bombings by 'their own', I realise with dread that people learn nothing, fascism springs spontaneously from reactionaries.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Saturday, 20 September 2014 6:59:32 PM
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David G, there you go, diverting the conversation and still blabbering on even though you don't have a leg to stand on.
The only areas where there is that sort of gross violence in the U.S are the Black ghettos and you know it as well as any of us, the crime rates in the areas where few Blacks live are the same as any other European dominated societies.
Missouri, last time I looked had a murder rate not far off that of Johannesburg while Vermont and Connecticut had the same murder rate as Melbourne or Sydney.
The fact is that black males at about 6% of the population commit over 50% of the homicides,96% of the interracial murders are black on White and near 100% of the blacks killed die at the hands of other blacks, but of course fanatics like you don't care about facts do you?
You won't listen to me, I doubt you'll listen to any sensible American Negro analysts who have the facts on their side but here goes anyway:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqQc9nEzA1k
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Saturday, 20 September 2014 7:18:36 PM
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Joe
You're being dramatic, Hitler made no such speech, you're talking about the speech from Triumph Of The Will?
Here's the whole thing with English subtitles, you'll notice him smiling to himself and shaking his head at the reaction of the crowd and hamming it up for the camera, he's enjoying himself:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0OtwfYahyg

Joe that's just how ideologically committed people sound when they're on a roll and among friends, it's confronting to people from a society like Australia which has no political culture but it's not irrational behaviour:
Observe:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gm_EnPLTyVo
You must have been to many a protest rally and political meeting so you'd know that all facilitators of such events use much the same techniques, It's been my experience that even if I disagree with the speakers it's impossible to remain unmoved by the electricity in the air during a passionate speech, it's easy to understand how uncommitted people go to these events and come away converted to the point of view on offer.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Saturday, 20 September 2014 8:16:00 PM
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Reggie Heggis has written an interesting article which really gives insight into the minds of pacifist people who come up with the most incredible "solutions" to avoid world conflict, because they just will not accept that military action can ever produce the best outcome. Reggie has consulted the fairies down the back of his garden and one of them, a little fairy named Ms. Bennis, has come up with a plan to make everybody happy.

First the west must take no military action against ISIS. Oh yeah. That will do a lot of good. Perhaps we should tell the Shiites and Kurds to stop shooting back at ISIS because it makes them mad?

Then we should send exchange diplomats with ISIS. Only if Ms. Bennis agrees to become Australia's Ambassador to ISIS.

Then we must "initiate a new search for broader diplomatic solutions in the United Nations" and have the UN start "real" negotiations with ending the war in Syria. Since when has the UN ever solved anything, Reggie? UN soldiers (under UN orders) stood by and watched millions of Rwandans being hacked to death with machetes should they do the same in northern Iraq? The UN pleaded with the yanks to use military force save them from the debacle in Somalia when Somali gunmen were laughing at people like you while they gunned them down.

Then we must (surprise, surprise) give trillions of dollars to the UN to aid the poor refugees. Money is the Answer to Everything for the true Socialist fairy. Once again they ask the mercantile class who they hate, to stump up with wads of cash to finance the programs which never work, but which employs lots of fairies. And when they don't work, say it is because there is not enough money and they need to hire more fairies. Add infinitum.

continued
Posted by LEGO, Sunday, 21 September 2014 5:11:26 AM
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continued

The major flaw in Reggie's thinking (there are so many) is that he considers the ISIS boys tom be just really nice guys who are simply angry over something or other. And all we have to do to stop them mass murdering, beheading, crucifying, gang raping, sex slaving, and ethnically cleansing the people they don't like, is to show them how much we love them and care for them. Reggie is worried about what makes the ISIS unhappy.

What makes them unhappy Reggie, is that you do not bow down to their stupid and non existent God. You live in a free society where you can pursue your own happiness instead of having every single aspect of your life conforming to God's law. And because of that, they feel they have the right to kill you in every unpleasant way that amuses them, take all your property, and take your female family members as war booty.

Could I submit, that the best response to that way of thinking, is a mass of cluster bombs delivered by A-10 Warthogs, followed by an all out assault by the US Marines?
Posted by LEGO, Sunday, 21 September 2014 5:15:09 AM
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"Could I submit, that the best response to that way of thinking, is a mass of cluster bombs delivered by A-10 Warthogs, followed by an all out assault by the US Marines?" says LEGO!

While people like Lego exist in their millions, people perfectly programmed by Western Propaganda to think that war and killing is the answer to everything, peace will never be found on Earth.

Such robotic, brain-dead people existed in Germany and Hitler manipulated them relentlessly. Currently, the regime in Washington is doing the same thing and the LEGOs of this world respond and applaud.

Of course, even a moron could see where all this is going to end: nuclear war and human extinction.

Kiss your children each night! Please!
Posted by David G, Sunday, 21 September 2014 7:58:54 AM
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While people like Lego exist in their millions, people perfectly programmed by Western Propaganda to think that war and killing is the answer to everything, peace will never be found on Earth.
David G,
Correction ! While people like you exist in their millions programmed by religious idiocy to think that killing all others is the answer , peace will never be found on Earth.
Posted by individual, Sunday, 21 September 2014 12:44:19 PM
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Thanks, Individual :) Spot-on.

Cheers,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Sunday, 21 September 2014 3:00:20 PM
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David G, I've asked you before but never got a reply, what do you propose the world does about ISIL?

If you seriously believe the USA is every bit as bad as ISIL then you live in a paranoid delusional world and require professional psychiatric help.

Please give us a break, you don't need to bring the death of OLO poster's kids 'at the hands of the evil west' into this discussion. It makes you look like a twit that deserves a session on the water board.
Posted by ConservativeHippie, Sunday, 21 September 2014 3:22:44 PM
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You know David? there is not a person here that doesn't wish your World could not be realized. The terrible fact that it never will.

There will always be evil people doing evil things. Saying we should just talk to them & they will see reason has never worked. They have an agenda & that's the end of it. For them to see reason we must conform to what ever system they want us to live by.

If you think that you would be allowed to live your life as you do now you are delusional. Do you want to live by the system that ISIS is putting up? Would you like that system to be implemented in Australia? You would have to convert, if you haven't already, of course

I know our system, the Yank system, even the Russian system have their problems, but living under a Caliphate. Not same ting.

It's no use saying, We'll use diplomacy & negotiate. Diplomacy in dealing with ISIS would mean complete capitulation of all the freedoms you now enjoy that is their ides of negotiation. Do you really want that?
Posted by Jayb, Sunday, 21 September 2014 3:56:34 PM
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To expect diplomacy to mean anything to ISIL is like expecting a rattlesnake to show you compassion.
Posted by individual, Sunday, 21 September 2014 8:00:27 PM
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So sixty thousand Syrian Kurds are now trying to flee over the Turkish border, but copping tear-gas from the border guards.

I suppose they can count their lucky stars that Islam is a religion of peace and brotherhood.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Sunday, 21 September 2014 8:06:15 PM
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Hi David G.

There are so many people needing to be deprogrammed on OLO that I can't remember your position from past posts. But scrutinising this topic, you seem to hate the USA, love peace and the environment, and hate war.

But you are openly claiming that I have been conditioned by "western propaganda" to believe that "war and killing is the answer to everything." I take exception to that.

The northern European Protestant religions stress that war is wrong unless it is just. This is because the Christian religion is essentially pacifist and the concept of a just war is the way in which we reconcile the need for military action where we feel it is necessary. Although I am not a Christian, my thinking is heavily influenced by the Christian message.

Every single person on earth has a point where he or she feels that violence is necessary. You yourself may be entirely pacifist but you may react violently if your child, mother, or wife were assaulted by a stranger.

Now, there is a new organisation which is called ISIS which has carved out a new nation from the remnants of Syria and Iraq. The people who run this organisation are religious nutcases (and you don't like them, do you?) who quite seriously believe that they are on a mission to world conquest. They have begun this mission by mass murdering minorities who live in their areas and they have captured a couple of oilfields and a lot of dangerous weaponry to aid them in their jihad.

They have no hope of matching the rest of the world militarily, but they do have a lot of potential to cause serious trouble among Muslims in the west. And they are just one of a dozen self styled groups around the world making life miserable for the local people who are not Muslims. Whereas I am even more pacifist than you, I have reached the point where I think that military action is the most appropriate action.

Got it now?
Posted by LEGO, Monday, 22 September 2014 5:57:09 AM
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The white chooks are running around the hen house crying out, 'The terrible black chooks are coming to take our perches and our food and mount our females! They are godless and must be killed!'

In another place the black chooks are shrieking, 'The white chooks are taking over. They want to enslave us, steal and plunder what we have, do obscene things to our hens! They are godless and must be killed!'

If there was a god, he would look down from on high and say, 'Such profound stupidity. I'll send a flood and drown all those silly, foolish chooks, then I'll create something with brains who will create a paradise on Earth!'
Posted by David G, Monday, 22 September 2014 7:22:35 AM
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Hi David,

Is that the best you can do by way of analysis ?

Research the issues, don't rely on your mates for 'knowledge', don't rely on just one news-source, look and read from as many as you can, the Fairfax press, News Limited, the Guardian (my preference, up to a point) and al-Jazeera. Try to be sceptical of Conspiracy Theory, although they are fun, and Isolationism, which usually degenerates into extreme right-wing politics, and I'm sure you wouldn't want that.

Weigh all of it up and just try to think for yourself, it would make a nice change.

Just trying to help :)

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Monday, 22 September 2014 9:02:18 AM
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Miserable sneery response, David G. Is that the best you can do? No wonder us right wingers wipe the floor with you lefties. Try thinking up a reasoned argument if you can manage it.
Posted by LEGO, Tuesday, 23 September 2014 7:10:16 AM
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Try thinking up a reasoned argument if you can manage it.
LEGO,
You nasty little bugger, you know full well he can't do that. fancy cornering him like that, he's got no chance.
Posted by individual, Tuesday, 23 September 2014 7:24:28 AM
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You are very good a criticizing us David G, but what is your alternative? How should the West deal with the IS? Detail some sort of plan that "you" would use to stop the carnage in the Middle East?
Posted by Jayb, Tuesday, 23 September 2014 8:06:46 AM
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LEGO, Individual & JayB,

Sit back and watch how the pseudo-left will now duck and dive, and drop their guts, to buckle under the threat of terrorism.

Watch how they will try to persuade/cajole/bully people into capitulating to the threat because, 'after all', by doing anything against ISIS, we're only provoking them to carry out attacks in Australia, so it's all the fault of the US. They'll say that we shouldn't be involved because ISIS will then be justified in carrying out those attacks.

Come on, David, give it a go :)

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Tuesday, 23 September 2014 9:01:04 AM
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by doing anything against ISIS, we're only provoking them to carry out attacks in Australia,
Loudmouth,
What the David G's of this world have to learn to comprehend that an organisation that openly anounces that it wants to rid this planet of all who are not like they are, does not need any rovocation in the first place. It just goes to show how stupid some people are. IS will do these things unprovoked, they even say so themselves. What the West has to do is to curb its stupidity within & then curb the stupidity of others especially those who want to do us harm.
How can Australia ever hope to fight outside stupidity when we have tens of thousands of David G's on our electoral roll ? Take-over merchants always look for the weakness in a society. Australia's dangerous weakness is its Left.
Posted by individual, Tuesday, 23 September 2014 10:49:39 AM
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Hi Joe.

Your analysis is the point of this whole topic. Richard Heggie wants to blame the USA for any rise in terrorism in Australia. Message? Australia must distance itself from the USA.

Richard Heggie is another Internationalist who think we can avoid war by being neutral and being nice to everybody. Although, being neutral in WW2 did not help the Dutch, Danes, Belgians, Norwegians, Greeks or Yugoslavs. Many of those countries are now part of NATO.

The election of Obama was indicative of the way in which the American people are becoming more isolationaist. They are sick of being the world's policeman and getting no thanks. For years, the euros have stood by and let the yanks do their dirty work while they acted like Richard Heggie and played the moral superiors.

This began to change during the Yugoslav war. When multicultural Yugoslavia fell apart with the usual massacres of innocents, the Euros told the yanks to butt out, the more sophisticated euros would now show the war mongering USA how to do it. So, they had a meeting followed by a conference, followed by "joint statements" from the primary political leaders denouncing the violence. When the killing continued, they held another meeting and another conference. Followed by more meetings and more conferences. Nothing got done until the yanks led the way again.

The euros are now getting terrified that the yanks are going isolationist again. That is why they are falling all over each other offering military support for the yanks this time. Richard Heggie's thinking is completely out of date with the "sophisticated" euros who are starting to realise just how much they need the USA. Their own armed forces are now so run down that Europe could not fight off an invasion from Botswana.
Posted by LEGO, Wednesday, 24 September 2014 6:16:58 AM
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Gee, as a peacemaker, I'm really on my own. Looking through the comments in the main they divide into two parts: the warmongers, which make up the majority, and the fence-sitters who half-think that war is our duty as human beings, patriotic even.

It's a shame that Western programming has been so successful because it means that war will never end which will keep the capitalists and the Western imperialists happy.

Anyway, I will keep on with my mission to convince the mindless rabble that peace is the only option to avoid nuclear war and human extinction.

Of course, I'm fighting against programming AND human nature! Boy, what a challenge that is.

I sometimes wonder why I bother.
Posted by David G, Wednesday, 24 September 2014 7:15:39 AM
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Gee, as a peacemaker, I'm really on my own
David G,
You are exactly the opposite of a peacemaker, you are a facilitator for the bad, you just can't think ahead far enough.
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 24 September 2014 7:59:07 AM
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So yers really can't see what Abbott has fashioned for himself politically out of the diabolical IS situation?

I mean...really....

He's marshalled all the relevant agencies to back his "panic" and all the relevant media outlets to toot the govt's horn.

Not a peep about domestic policy lately on any subject but "protecting us from terrorism".

And none of you who are cringing under your beds and whirling your clackers in support of Tony's convenient concern for Iraqis (you know the ones he chopped off all aid to in the budget...before he realised that deploying the "terror threat" was perhaps political salvation)

That man is a con artist.

That man and his govt have "done nothing but" con the Australian electorate since way before the election.

He is a shyster of the highest order...who is apparently quite happy to cause division in our society to pour salve on his disreputable record since achieving govt...all in the service of hauling his re-election chances from the bottom of the cesspit.
Posted by Poirot, Wednesday, 24 September 2014 8:17:10 AM
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Poirot,

For all that and all that, ISIS has just sent 130,000 Kurds fleeing over the Turkish border, and reports suggest that they are massacring people left behind, and presumably enslaving their women. Not that that worries you, of course, since the US is on the side of the Kurdish people in this one.

Most Arab states in the region also seem to be on the side of the Kurds, against the brutality of ISIS and its 'religion of peace'.

So whose side are you on ?

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Wednesday, 24 September 2014 8:23:18 AM
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Poirot, I endorse your comments about 'the little Hitler'. When I hear him saying, "They hate us for our values," I cringe.

Howard, Bush, etc, myriads of liars have used this statement to justify their warmongering and fearmongering.

The Yanks are into the bombing and droning yet again. They relish it. The television is filled with images of missiles striking buildings in Arab lands. What they need to show are the body fragments and the screams of the badly injured among whom must be civilians and kids.

Humans are little better than beasts, brutal and cruel!
Posted by David G, Wednesday, 24 September 2014 8:28:03 AM
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Welcome to the debate poirot, just back from the ME again I see, "They'll be watching you" as the song goes. Supporting IS? I guess so.

David G: Gee, as a peacemaker, I'm really on my own.

You didn't answer the question. How would you approach IS & get them to stop their killing & make peace? This will back your claim as "the peacemaker."

I look forward to you answer with excitement as YOU could may have the answer to the whole ME problem.
Posted by Jayb, Wednesday, 24 September 2014 8:30:09 AM
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Loudmouth,

Are you telling me that Oz can't assist without slathering on the domestic "terrorism threat" so thickly?

What about the "raids"...for all appearances staged for media/public consumption?

What happened to "operational matters"?

Now he's got the "agencies" supplying material to the media.

(It reminds me of the US intervention in Somalia some years back when the media contingent was preemptively dug into the dunes ready to film the troop landings on the beaches.)

No one is supporting the brutality of ISIS (although I realise just how convenient it is for the likes of you to accuse anyone who criticises this govt's deployment of a major "terror threat" to be on the "baddies'" side)

You know in your waters why Abbott and his cronies are gung-ho on this one. Shorten is along for the ride.

It's for domestic kudos.

Any leader of integrity and honour would have gone quietly about the business of assisting forces against ISIS - they wouldn't have gorged themselves on an opportunistically prepared banquet ostensibly regurgitated and served up for domestic political consumption.
Posted by Poirot, Wednesday, 24 September 2014 8:43:01 AM
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Poirot,

I think you picked the wrong morning to defend the 'religion of peace'. Two coppers stabbed ? 130,000 fleeing over the Turkish border ?

What have we had now - three incidents in a week in Australia ?

Mahmud Abbas in Palestine has come out strongly against ISIS. Arab countries are joining the struggle to defeat fascism (what else would you call it, Poirot ?)

I'll probably never vote liberal. But on this issue, which I believe is very, very real, Abbott and Bishop are on the money.

And it is really cheeky of you to write of 'integrity and honour'. Do you know what those words even mean ?

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Wednesday, 24 September 2014 8:58:03 AM
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"I'll probably never vote liberal. But on this issue, which I believe is very, very real, Abbott and Bishop are on the money."

I would have been disappointed if you hadn't swallowed the "domestic" spiel hook, line and sinker.

"And it is really cheeky of you to write of 'integrity and honour'. Do you know what those words even mean ?"

Yeah, thanks for the scummy reply.

Of course, I realise how difficult it is for you to debate without maligning your opponent.

It's a weakness of yours (in tandem with your sarcasm)...but I know you're working on it.

(Good luck with that:)
Posted by Poirot, Wednesday, 24 September 2014 9:12:24 AM
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Any chance of sticking to the topic, Poirot, instead of these silly nyah-nyah remarks ? is that your best ?

Whose side are you on, Abbott's or ISIS ? That's what it comes down to. We can pick up the placards later.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Wednesday, 24 September 2014 9:44:22 AM
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Jayb, probably the best answer for settling down the Middle East would be to get the U.S. out of there lock, stock and barrel, send them back where they belong!

They've had a negative influence on the world since their inception and the slaughter of the Native Indians and the establishment of slavery. They've killed millions and that is why they're hated by most of the world's people.

Their attempt to gain control of Middle Eastern oil has had a catastrophic impact on all the nations in the region. Their support for Israel has not helped at all.

Yeah, send the Yanks packing from all nations and ensure they stay behind their own borders. That would solves most of the world's current problems including the alienation of most Arabs!

Is that too difficult for you to get your mind around?
Posted by David G, Wednesday, 24 September 2014 9:54:17 AM
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I think Poirot & David G are one & the same moron.
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 24 September 2014 10:13:44 AM
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"Any chance of sticking to the topic, Poirot, instead of these silly nyah-nyah remarks ?"

Yup...here's Joe debating at his best.

Joe loves to go gallivanting about off topic when it suits him...but always holds in reserve BTT for when he's run out of derision and sarcasm....and sometimes he even inserts it when he's till flinging the other floss about.

Ho hum...

"Whose side are you on, Abbott's or ISIS ?..."

http://broelman.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/what-to-do-in-a-budget-emergency/

Whose side are you on?

Integrity in govt...or hysterical "terror alerts" to tickle up the populace for electoral advantage?
Posted by Poirot, Wednesday, 24 September 2014 10:17:39 AM
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"I think Poirot & David G are one & the same moron," says individual!

Did this event of thinking take place this year or was it long ago, perhaps even decades?
Posted by David G, Wednesday, 24 September 2014 10:19:33 AM
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A quite understandable assumption, David :)

Poirot,

I'll risk my integrity by supporting Abbott on this one, the other pissy issues can come later.

Meanwhile, back to topic (sorry, Poirot): In the witches' brew of the Middle East, it appears that Turkey may cautiously be moving towards growing a pair and being useful in the fight against Islamo-fascism (so what else would you call it ?) by patrolling its border crossings. In its defence, it has fought a thirty-year war across its south-east third against PKK freedom-fighters (I think that's the proper term, Poirot: no beheadings, no enslavements, just defence of the people: freedom-fighters), so any move which strengthens the Kurdish resistance to fascism may strengthen the PKK in Turkey itself.

But of course, any /Turkish inaction also strengthens ISIS. Whether the Turkish government means this or not is open to question, given its Islamist determination.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Wednesday, 24 September 2014 11:07:52 AM
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DG: Jayb, probably the best answer for settling down the Middle East would be to get the U.S. out of there lock, stock and barrel, send them back where they belong!

OK. Actually I agree. It's the Middle Easts problem let the Arab Nations sort it out. But, that only answer what the Yanks should do. The question was, "What solution do "YOU" propose in dealing with IS, to stop the carnage?

Please answer the question & don't deflect the answer by talking about Yanks, French, British or Australians.

MY Solution: Seal the Borders. Let no one out even the so called innocent civilians. Let anyone in who wants to get in. When the situation has sorted itself out, destroy what's left & start again with people who really want peace.

David. G. Solution:....
Posted by Jayb, Wednesday, 24 September 2014 1:41:01 PM
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Did this event of thinking take place this year or was it long ago, perhaps even decades?
David G,
you'd be surprised how many David G's & Poirots there are just in this country alone. So, no reason to feel odd. But it sure would be good if you could escape that dreadful mentality.
Not only are you cornering yourself but you're also dragging others down with you. Stupidity is no crime but ignorance in the face of so much evidence should be punishable.
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 24 September 2014 6:35:34 PM
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Loudmouth,

"Poirot,

I'll risk my integrity by supporting Abbott on this one, the other pissy issues can come later."

I expect when the "pissy issues" of Australia's domestic freedom and democracy have been trashed in the service of this govt's faux agenda, the likes of you will be the first to run around like a chook with its head cut off.

"The welfare of the people in particular has always been the alibi of tyrants."

Albert Camus
Posted by Poirot, Thursday, 25 September 2014 10:10:43 AM
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poirot: I expect when the "pissy issues" of Australia's domestic freedom and democracy have been trashed in the service of this govt's faux agenda.

I can see your motive here. You don't want the Security Agents to know your who your "friends" are going to attack, do you? All ready we have seen the Islamic Council claiming they are being attacked. & When Islam is attacked by being outed they claim they have the right to defend themselves, by beheadings & suicide bombers.

It hasn't happened yet, but it will happen. Got anything planned for the weekend, poirot?
Posted by Jayb, Thursday, 25 September 2014 10:24:51 AM
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Jayb,

"It hasn't happened yet, but it will happen. Got anything planned for the weekend, poirot?"

What sort of dipsy dingaling comment is that?

I suppose it's the price you pay for discussing things like this on public forums.

Any old prattler can come along espousing his bonkers paranoia.
Posted by Poirot, Thursday, 25 September 2014 1:16:25 PM
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poirot: Got anything planned for the weekend, poirot?"

I'd a thought you'd da been out waving ya black Flag in protest at this poor innocent young moslem civilian brutally murdered by the terrible Australian Security Police.

1/nil, so far, going by yesterday. ;-)
Posted by Jayb, Thursday, 25 September 2014 2:30:13 PM
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Jayb,
Poirot will be crying it's eyes out right now at that poor innocent fruitcake being nailed.
Posted by individual, Thursday, 25 September 2014 5:42:18 PM
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Back to topic:

Obama has a huge dilemma here: he must keep the Sunni and Shia heartlands - Saudi Arabia and Iran - apart for as long as possible, otherwise it will be on for young and old, civil wars across the entire Middle East and Pakistan. So he has to keep Iran - officially - out of the current struggle and involve the Sunni only against ISIS. Brilliant !

In that sense, he is trying to limit the war, to prevent it becoming far bigger. While he concentrates on kicking ISIS' @rse, I wish him well.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Thursday, 25 September 2014 6:53:20 PM
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David G,

You really ought to study a little history; slavery was around long before Columbus set sail for China (or wherever) and re-discovered America by accident.
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 25 September 2014 10:53:14 PM
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This was a marvelous thread, one again near its end spoiled by the Resident Loonies like Jayb, Bigmouth, individual, etc who make up the resident peanut gallery.

Thanks to Peter for providing the article.
Posted by David G, Monday, 29 September 2014 7:29:03 PM
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P.S. Sorry, I meant Richard!
Posted by David G, Monday, 29 September 2014 7:30:43 PM
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Hi David,

How do you mean, the peanut gallery ? What I wrote was in total seriousness, and as far as I can tell, I didn't insult you or say anything which was ad hominem: Obama has a hell of a job to do, to keep the Saudis and Iran apart, and therefore to keep Iran out of the current conflict, officially. What is 'peanut' about that ?

Or is it simply that you can't understand a simple proposition ? Get your mum to explain it to you.

Oops, sorry, will you interpret that to mean I want to have relations with your mum ? She should be so lucky. Don't kid yourself.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Tuesday, 30 September 2014 12:35:48 AM
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Says it all

https://www.youtube.com/embed/VmffgIqlAYA
Posted by Jayb, Wednesday, 1 October 2014 1:01:10 PM
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