A great article Bruce and the final point is well conceived. Abbott has lied about the budget crises and the media seem content to allow the lie to perpetuate. Going to war is something that will affect every Australia in ways not imagined. ISIS in particular will bring rebuttal from home-grown terrorism on soft targets and taking on Putin could see a return to the cold-war scenario of the fifties and sixties. Democracy must prevail here and serious discussion needs to take place. Abbott did not get a mandate for war.

Abbott is the last man in Australia who should be allowed to make decisions about Australia involving itself in America's endless Imperial Wars.

His chequered history shows his inability to think clearly about anything, let alone sending people's sons and daughters off to war to be killed.

The leadership of our country is in the hands of an erratic fool who played too many Cowboys and Indians games as a child to say nothing about being punch drunk from his boxing exploits.

Contact your local member and make your thoughts known!

Australia must become independent of America's hegemony!

Abbott, along with his Foreign Minister and his Attorney-General, are doing more than just following the US into an ill-conceived and unnecessary hot war in the Middle East and a self-destructive economic one in Europe. They are conspiring together, and I suspect this at the bidding of their US mentors, to bring a fledgling police state to light here within the borders of Australia.
Tho proffered justification for this new state will be that it is a considered response to a soon-to-be announced heightened terror alert. The reasons for a heightened alert will be that this is an unsought but unavoidable precaution now necessary due to the two mentioned wars-of-choice (Abbot's, Bishop's and Brandis' choice) into which we have been volunteered. It's a self-fulfilling circular argument, and as bogus as it is hard to counter.
For openers expect more police and more security checks in the coming month of footy finals and more, and heightened checks at airports. A "no-fly" list may soon follow. These, we will be told, will insure we do not suffer any terrorist attacks while the real reason for them will be to acclimatise us all to having more, and more intrusive, eyes all over us. The police will be given heightened and unaccountable powers to protect, get ready for it, the "homeland".

Hear hear. Rather than supplying arms (pouring fuel onto the fire) surely a more intelligent response would be an arms embargo; stop all munitions entering the country.
It's not as if we went in there to steal another country's natural resources, is it?
Morally and ethically, if we believe in the sovereign right of all nations to self determination then clearly all the international community can do is sequester the entire area. We need to break the cycle of violence and retribution.
Fanatics have very long memories.

Bruce; you'd likely be first in the cliff jumping queue, clamoring for US assistance/justice, were we ever attacked!
And given the military build ups in our area of influence, not inconceivable!
And given our volume or raw wealth and energy resources, not inconceivable!
And as envisaged, any M.E. assistance would not include very many Australian boots on the ground; ever, save some special purpose special forces, military trainers, advisers and humanitarian assistance/Anzac medical units?
The majority of military boots on the ground will be Egyptian, Lebanese, Qatari, Turkish and a few others; Muslim, and all entitled to place their boots on so called hallowed ground!
And more than enough raw numbers, to more than adequately deal with any regional problem, with a mostly regional solution!
And in long overdue, regional unity!
For evil to prosper, good men need only stand and do nothing.
And of all the evils visited upon planet earth in recent years; Isil is far and away, the most intensively evil!
Simply put, when facing something as inherently evil, doing nothing is never ever an option!
Moreover, those at greatest risk and with the most to lose at the murderous whim and caprice of Isil, are moderate Muslims!
And the Lamb will lay down with the Lion!
Rhrosty.

I've yet to see any rational explanation as to why we need to get involved in this or any other military action in the Middle East.
The Canetoad may love having a chance to try and distract us from his failures and dishonesty here but to my mind that is no excuse to get Australians killed, which is the inevitable outcome of his mindless adventurism.
ISIS is an Islamic problem, funded largely by Saudi Arabia and other Muslim supporters, and is no present threat to Australia, unless we make ourselves a target by attacking them.
Let those nations directly threatened by these nightmare maniacs deal with them, if they really need help with that let them ask for it via that HALL OF LUCRATIVE IDIOCY, otherwise known as the UN, and then let other Muslim nations be first providers for that, long before we consider assisitance, let alone actual involvement.
The canetoad is yet again proving the Peter Principle.
He has clearly risen to his "level of incompetence"!
Unfortunately he's dragging us into the mire with him, and he's going to get some of us killed in the process, and all because he can't think beyond his own immediate advantage!
The Canetoad is to Australia's foreign affairs what a drunken rhinocerous is to the proverbial China shop.

"In the face of domestic difficulties centred on a failed budget, a foreign policy performance based on war time parameters has played well for Abbott. His initial spontaneous pugnacious response to a threat or challenge has on balance stood him in good stead – in the short term. But for Abbott his challenge will be to plan or follow through in the longer term and to date he has shown little aptitude for that. He apparently has given no thought to the prospect that what he is proposing might go awry. He would be better advised to cover himself with parliamentary approval before going it alone. The Abbott Doctrine could sink in a sea of hubris.

It is not in Abbott’s nature to consider diplomacy as an aspect of war...."

Ain't that the truth.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/columnists/leader-for-a-more-dangerous-world/story-e6frg74x-1227022252877

Paul Kelly:

"Abbott’s every instinct is to deploy Australian military and police assets and he needs to be persuaded by his advisers from such options."

"In the early days of the crisis several weeks ago Abbott wanted to put 1000 Australian troops onto the crash site in conjunction with 1000 Dutch troops. Nothing better testifies to his outrage at the event and his keenness to deploy Australian assets in a cause that affected Australians. This option remained on the table for a few days.

It was never going to be viable. Yet debate around this idea continued before the Prime Minister was talked around and decided it was too dangerous and inappropriate an option. Putting Australian troops into that highly charged situation would have been far too risky.

Yet it offers insights into Abbott’s approach to military issues: he is impatient with limitations relating to logistics and deployment...."

Send Abbott, Bishop and the rest of the war mongers off to battle in the front line of fire, as they are so happy to follow the biggest war machine in the world, the USA, guarantee there would be no talk of war then, so we will have more crocodile tears at the laying of wreaths at memorials for the glorious war dead, that they have sent off to battle their war
Where is Abbott getting this money for his war crusade? has he consulted the taxpayer public for his dictatorship attitude with war and everything else.
The sooner this idiot is out of office the better off we will all be.

Poirot, the problem is that the opposition are just as stupid as Abbot is and they will also give parliamentary approval for another excursion into the Middle East. This just gives more ammunition for the jihadists when they return home to Oz.

David

The weirdness of War is that murder is illegal -unless the gumment sanctions it.
Since the individuals leaving Australia are fighting in other people's wars that have NOT been sanctioned, they have committed murder.
If they try to return to this country they should face immediate incarceration and life sentences.

Peder-Pedo Quim Rimmer Grim Fat Low, you’re talking about an “elected government” remember? Your holy of holies, remember? Which automatically and necessarily represents society more and better than society does? Than which no question of mere liberty can be higher or more important? Merely to question Abbott’s clownish bumbling aggressiveness means you support the “ideological support for corporatisation of the planet”, remember? Even to suggest a right for liberty against unlimited government power means “irrational profound hatred of freely elected governments”.

Remember?

How can you have forgotten? It was only yesterday you were sticking this absurd jumble up of self-contradictions my nose. The only difference is that in your case, you believe them and you’re constantly contradicting everything you yourself post, and in my case, they’re only your primitive misrepresentations, I’m consistent in preferring freedom from aggression which you only partially and inconsistently support now.

Okay let’s cut to the chase. Enlighten us. Is aggressive violence okay if it’s done by an elected government, or not.

You can bet your left teste that Abbott's sprogs won't be anywhere near the frontline if the manure hits the fan. I am waiting only for the jingoistic babble to gush forth, urging the Crusader's onwards and upwards for the cause of the Cross and the almighty dollar. About time someone took a 'pot shot' at one of these clowns to put their cocky heads down !

Bruce; you'd likely be first in the cliff jumping queue, clamoring for US assistance/justice, were we ever attacked!
Rhrosty,
Bruce Haigh was apparently in foreign affairs so he's bound to have some fellow federal Public service Superannuation mongers in Immigration. All he has to do is to get his immigration mates to refuse Visas for any wannabe attackers to come here. Problem solved, we won't need the US.
The lefties got it right, if we don't stop the brutalities over there then the brutes will give them special consideration when they get here.

as Bruce is a denialist when it comes to Islam I would have no confidence in his judgement. He is probably to naive to see that the reasons we have so many terrorist here in Australia is because of the blind ignorance of those sprouting all religions and cultures are equal. Bruce seemed in favour of opening up the country to illegals. In doing so they have put many Australians at risk. When are the 'progressives' going to come out of denial and realise that their appeasement is simply laughed at and seen as weakness by those serving Allah. Poor old Obama now having to swallow his pride and admit that Bush was right about his premature withdrawal from Iraq to make himself look like the good guy. Progressives need to take the blinkers off in order to look at facts not just bias to suite their hopelessly flawed narrative.

Thank you Bruce for raising some important points. I would just add some brief comments.

You refer to American outrage over the beheadings of two of their citizens. Their treatment is of course an affront on many bases. But where is the outrage over the many more beheadings of their close ally Saudi Arabia: 75 in 2012 and 2013 and more than a dozen last month alone, including for the crime of "sorcery".

I agree that a proper debate should be held, although given the attitude of the Labor Party it would probably not change the result. A fear of an adverse result (as Cameron got in the UK over Syria) would be one reason, but far from the only one. It speaks volumes about the fundamentally non-democratic instincts of Abbott and his motley crew that we have no debate, just as we have never had an inquiry into the Iraq War, much less held those responsible for that illegal travesty accountable.

You describe Obama as "reluctant". I suggest that is a facade, as is evident from his last major speech earlier this week which is a classic illustration of imperial hubris and hypocrisy.

You are correct to be wary of Abbott's bull in a china shop approach to foreign affairs. His attitude and conduct over Ukraine is cause for much worry. Left to his own devices he would probably take us to war against Russia! His misrepresentation of the Dutch non-report into the MH17 crash in the context of a secret non-disclosure agreement with Ukraine, Belgium and the Netherlands (yet to be reported in the msm) betrays the fundamental dishonesty of his policies.

Finally, you suggest Saudi Arabia might be enlisted to help. They are not part of the solution: they are a major part of the problem.

Wow, the usefuls are out in force today.

Can I respectfully augment Rhosty's quote, that "For evil to prosper, good men need only stand and do nothing.... while useful idiots prattle about terribly dreadful irrelevancies."

Joe

Power plays are changing dramatically. Both James Rickards author of 'The Death of Money' and Dr Jim Willie are saying that Germany will soon join the BRICS alliance. This means the end of the EU and the power of the Rothschild Banking Dynasty. This is why both Russia and China have been demonised. They no longer want to be slaves to Central Bankers debt money creation via counterfeiting of our currencies.

After raising Australia's terrorism alert level from medium to high today, the following quote was found in the Guardian and is attributed to our PM.
“What people will probably notice though is more security at airports, more security at ports, more security at military bases, more security at government buildings, and more security at large public events.”
For security read more police, more intrusive monitoring, and it is THIS that is the evil that will prosper while good men do nothing.
Obama is not now, nor has he ever been, reluctant to do the bidding of the neo-cons left inside the Beltway when W departed. He is one of them, root and branch, and has been from the get-go. Look at who he has appointed. Look at what he has done. Look at what he has not done.
Among much else, he created ISIL, and now he says he wants to uncreate it. Will that include creating another force just like it? And will this new force eventually also need to be uncreated?
Tony, dear Tony! Are you really so dumb? Is it that important to you to sit at the high table with the warmongers?

Is it that important to you to sit at the high table with the warmongers?
halduell,
I wonder if there are actually people who delight in war ? I imagine there are bad sadists, greedy idots, power mongers ect.who create conflict by giving others a hard time until those others reach boiling point. Then the baddies can call those who reached boiling point, baddies. All this is allowed to happen under the umbrella we refer to as Law & Civil Liberties. People can do as they please & when the recipients of those who do retalliate cop crap they bleat aggression.
Big wars are actually very similar to domestic violence. One does something wrong to another but the other has no right to retalliate. That's how trouble starts. We are not allowed to defend ourselves by those who turn to us to defend them when things go wonky.
For example if you were to catch a burglar & you belted him you are the one whom the Ploice will chase , not him, he'll get all the attention & help.
Wars between countries are no different because as it has been said here Bad things happen when good people do nothing. Why, you yourself suggest we should not get involved in preventing the evil from the middle east to spread. So if that's not what you want, what do you suggest we should do to protect ourselves ?

@ individual, Posted Saturday, 13 September 2014 5:35:58 AM
You ask what I would do to protect ourselves. That's fairly easy. Cease to be a spear carrier for the Empire of Chaos. Admittedly this will not be easy as we have voluntarily become an occupied nation, but the journey back to an honest position in our relations to and in the would has to start somewhere.
Consider that before being bombed back into pre-industrial rubble Libya, Iraq and Syria were all wealthy, stable nations. Not perfect, no, but then who is? But wealthy and stable with schools and hospitals and most of the infrastructure of modern life. Now? Nothing.
Cease being a part of what has brought that to be, and we will go a long way to protecting ourselves. This will mean, first and foremost, rethinking our uncritical support of Zionism.
ISIL is an example of insanity and terror let loose on the world. No question. But who created them? And why? Was it the US working with Saudi Arabia and Israel arming 'good' jihadists to fight 'bad' jihadists and in the process bringing down Bashar al-Assad? And whose brilliant idea was that?
Libya? The wealthiest and strongest African nation north of South Africa not so long ago. Now? Open slather for the Empire of Chaos's Africa Command.
Iraq? Not much working there these days other than the oil wells. Do you ever wonder why that is?
Syria? Could this exercise be a long term plan to build another gas pipeline to bring gas to Europe from the Gulf States that does not go through Russia?
And that brings us to the Ukraine. Are we really backing Nazis? Seems so. We feature in some news stories that speak of the US, some Nato/Eu member states and Australia. And we wonder why our terror alert has gone from amber to red.

We've gone to "red" alert because the Canetoad can't con us with his budget, it's got very little to do with any security considerations.
The only thing that's changed recently there is that the Canetoad and his pet woman mouthpiece have been making fools of themselves on the international stage with their Mutt n Jeff aggressive barking!
They themselves may well have made themselves more tempting targets but one is forced to suspect that, like the rest of the worlds leaders, the terrorists just don't, can't, take them seriously.
Let us hope so anyway, for all our sakes.

G'dayBruce,

Right you are.

This cartoon by Broelman sums it up perfectly.

http://broelman.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/what-to-do-in-a-budget-emergency/

Backing the Nazis Haduwell?
No certainly not!
Not now not ever!
Have absolutely no tolerance for sabre rattling/rocket launching/mendacious, land grabbing, doubly disingenuous dictators and their expansion plans, or when they foment unrest/annex the sovereign territory/physical resources/wealth of other nations!
Our best response?
Open up the flood gates of oil development, to drive the price of oil well below 87 dollars, to force the looting confiscating Nazi hordes, to run their hydrocarbon industries at a real and ruinous loss!
And in so doing, make their completely illegal, patently purloined prizes, not worth a plugged nickle, let alone countless innocent lives.
Let him rant and rave like the lunatic he so clearly looks like?
All that will achieve, is his major markets will look for and find other hydrocarbon/energy suppliers, and for far less than they're paying this land grabbing warmonger now.
Don't judge others on what they say, but particularly when their oral promises aren't worth the paper they written on, But rather, unmistakable actions and done deeds!
Actions which clearly include arming a stage managed rebellion, and massing against another's border, with an invasion sized expeditionary force!
A very wise man once said, you can fool all the people some of the time, some of the people all the time, but never all the people all the time.
Dare one suggest, you fall into the some able to be fooled all of the time category; and then only by the weasel words and denials dictator, rather than his unmistakable actions!
Action the speak so much louder and vastly more eloquently, than all the patent propaganda in the world, or even the risible rubbish that fools only manifestly moribund morons, Haduwell! Da?
Or should that be, duh?
Rhrosty.

Spot on Poirot.
Seen that one, loved it,the guys a dead-set genius!

Seriously, Rhrosty (Posted Saturday, 13 September 2014 12:33:12 PM.)
You really do want to take a Bex and have a good lie down. Or maybe just get your hand off it.

Hi Halduell,

Nazis ? Zhirinovsky. Vlasov. The Ribentropp-Molotov Pact. Look them up on Wikipedia.

Cheers,

Joe

G'dayBruce, your post is correct, let's hope that when all these leaders like Abbott, and Julie Bishop , warmongering parasites, that they will be the first on the hit list and not the innocent people going about their ordinary lives, that is where unfortunately they seem to get it all wrong and hit the innocent when it should be the clowns in Parliament.
One does get tired with penis cranium old men who have never been to war sending young guys to their death on their behalf.
Perhaps it is time for more demonstrations like the Vietnam war era, that war, is not on the ordinary persons mind only politicians.
One understands that the US supplies arms to its ally Saudie Arabia and others, who then pass them on to the Jihads, so where does it all start from?
I agree, the budget must have got lost somewhere and money for the war machine is growing on trees somewhere, me thinks

@ Loudmouth, Posted Saturday, 13 September 2014 2:08:34 PM
Yes, Nazis! Right Sector, Azov Battalion. Look them up on Wikipedia.
Cheers
Hal

Poirot
So there's a 'budget emergency' is there? Has it ever occurred to you this has something to do with your voting patterns?

Besides, how can you criticise the government? You believe it automatically represents you better than you represent you, remember?

But if not, then on what principle should government power be limited?

Just wondering... all of you who are so opposed to Australia helping the US contain and destroy ISIS... what is the alternative? Do nothing or sticking our heads in the ground isn't going to magically stop that medieval barbaric hoard from slaughtering 1000s of people. And that won't stop them from eventually turning their sights on Australia.

Please provide a detailed, link free, description of your solution to this global problem.

JKJ,

No - there is not a budget emergency.

If you had interpreted that cartoon correctly you would realise that Hockey's "budget emergency" (the fake one) has proven to be a dud. It's represented by the stunned cat which he is thumping against the glass to release the next "emergency"...the one based on a terrorist threat.

When all is said and done, the budget emergency was introduced to facilitate an agenda - and the latest spin is to take the population for a further walk up the garden path in order to make Abbott look like a statesman and to address his woeful polls.

Simple really.

Please provide a detailed, link free, description of your solution to this global problem.
ConservativeHippie,
Instead of giving money in foregn aid send free contraception & sterilising food to the Middle east & wherever people breed too much & expect us to keep them.
The Australian Tax Office should have boxes to tick in the Tax forms which ask which organisation you want to give your aid dollar too.
Do not provide residency Visa for people who do not want to denounce religion of any flavour.
We need to cut back on the number of religious morons if we want God to take us serious.

Poirot

Your evasion = intellectual dishonesty.

JKJ,

Your raising of other issues in my direction = attempting to post off topic.

Hi Hal,

The Azov Platoon ? Piss ants. Vlasov ? A division. Mind you, I feel great sympathy for him, he was caught in a terrible dilemma, and was hanged for his choices, the last 'pro-Nazi' to be hanged by the Soviets.

Seruously, ALL Eastern European countries had their share of supposedly Nazi-sympathisers during the Second World War much of it 'understandable' in response to Stalin's bullying: and after all, Russia DID invade all of eastern Poland in 1939 (hence Katyn).

And I can understand why Ukrainians - the few who actually did - would side with the Nazis, after the dreadful famine inflicted on them by Stalin, after whom I was named, a famine that even Gorbachev wrote of in condemning words, witnessing as a child bodies in the streets of his village.

In other words, there wasn't much to choose between Stalin's fascism, dressed up as 'socialism', and Hitler's.

What is quite amazing is not only the paucity of fascist support for the Ukrainian government but the strong Russian support for fascisms of all sorts, the Pan-Eurasian League or whatever it's called, Zhirinovsky's influence over Putin, etc. Putin's Russia is, after all, imperialist as well as proto-fascist, isn't that so ?

Keep your eye on Kazakhstan, after Putin's veiled threat against its President, Hal.

Also watch how China deals with Russia's invasion and dismemberment of Ukraine.

No love between imperialists, that's for sure :) 'Fascism means war', as Dimitrov wrote, before Stalin had him killed off.

Joe

sending young guys to their death on their behalf.
Ojnab,
Wrong,
These young guys are literally wasting their life for the likes of you. You're not worth it judging by your posts.

The truth hurts doesn't it Individual

Poirot
The fact you assume the government is justified in doing what you criticise it for is not off-topic, it's directly on topic, so stop trying to squirm out of it.

Do you think everyone can't see your evasion? You're only demonstrating you know full well and don't care that what you're saying is self-contradictory and untrue.

Joe,
Putin's current court philosopher is Alexsandr Dugin, over the last five years a lot of his work has being translated into English and your characterisation of the Eurasian project is not inaccurate.
Fascism isn't usually overly concerned with biological race, the NSDAP did have scientific Racism as a gimmick but in general Fascism is based on identity so the new movements are identitarian and futuristic, not racist and traditionalist.
What has to be said though is that people who wave Swastika flags or adopt what we call the "Hollywood Nazi" image are not the real thing, there's always something off about their leaders and the way they conduct themselves and in almost 100% of cases they're either working for the security services or for clandestine Jewish activist groups.

JKJ,

You are deliberately attempting to "skew" the topic of this thread which is ostensibly concerned with Abbott and his enthusiastic and premature chest beating.

Why, in that case, would I wish to become involved with another of your generic rants on the subject of govt?

If you wait a couple of threads, I'm sure you'll get a chance to deploy your ACME auto government rant button and spill your bile over successive posts.

(Nice try, Peter. Go and find someone else to insult, while cleverly wrapping in up in your fish paper spiel)

The truth hurts doesn't it Individual
Ojnab,
Yes & you feel it far more than most who are not as hypocirical.

Kiddies, can we get back to topic ?

The fascist Islamic State [how else would you describe it ?] represents a very clear danger for nation-states across a very wide area, from Afghanistan across to Mauretania (make that: from India to Mauretania).

Many or most of those states have limited means of keeping themselves together, with poor infrastructure, especially in their peripheral areas, so breaking off bits under various fundamentalist-terrorist groups doesn't seem to be difficult.

There are now more than a dozen Islamist groups controlling vast areas, with tens of millions of people under their brutal sway, and Boko Haram ('Education is filth') has already put itself under the Islamic State; others will follow, including (betcha) Hamas.

This fascist movement is exterminating men, enslaving women and beheading children across Syria and Iraq, its current heartland. Anybody who does not fit into their notion of a 'good Muslim' faces death. By their own definition, they will never 'negotiate' or agree to a truce, given their declaration to spread Shari'a across the world, and to carry out jihad against the world until they succeed.

Currently, it's Iraq and Syria facing dismemberment. The US is building a coalition of forces to confront and ultimately defeat it. I'm glad that Australia is part of that coalition.

Get your priorities right: there will never be a place for the pseudo-left amongst those fascists, so get over your anti-Americanism.

Joe

Joe,
ISIS have just released a new video of the beheading of another White social justice warrior in Syria, all three of the western men beheaded so far have been first and formost social justice activists and the obvious point is that Jihadists don't care if these people are on their side, they're not impressed by a commitment to social justice.
The "Left" obviously do fear their own deaths at the hands of Muslims, all this posturing is just an attempt to ward off the reality of their situation. I'm reminded of a story from 1945 about a group of German women who had been communists before 1933 and who rushed to greet the Soviet soldiers entering Berlin, their old Communist Party cards in hand. Of course they and their daughters were swiftly gang raped by the Soviet "Frontoviks" then repeatedly savaged by the rear echelon troops to whom they again appealed for shelter on the basis of their credentials as loyal socialists.
I doesn't matter to the Jihadist what you say and do, whether you support them or not, they will attack the weak points of a society first and the people who try to suck up to them or beg for mercy quickly find themselves enslaved or doing their bidding.
When fighting between Muslims and Europeans breaks out in Paris or Brussels or London the SJW's and "bleeding hearts", the Leftists and the Anarchists are going to be exterminated if they get in the middle, this is their real fear and at present they think that the Muslims will show them mercy in spite of all indications to the contrary, their fate will be that of those wretched Communist women in Berlin.

Have to agree with loudmouth, and can only add a quote from Scots poet Robbie burns; Facts are cheils tha dinna whing!
Or put another more modern way, it's impossible to refute the irrefutable truth! N.B. Haduwell.
Rhrosty

J,O.M. Exactly Jay, and never a truer post posted!
Facts are cheils tha dinna whing! Och aye the noo!
Rhrosty.

Abbott, Australia's National Security PM, announced an hour ago the following Australian forces going to the Middle East to fight in Iraq:

- 600 personnel (just the beginning?)

- up to 8 Super Hornets

- a Wedgetail early warning and control aircraft http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_AEW%26C

- an Airbus aerial refuelling aircraft http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A330_MRTT

- the C17s and Hercules airlifters already there

and a contingent of Special Forces troops. see http://www.news.com.au/national/prime-minister-tony-abbott-promises-to-send-military-to-gulf-in-response-for-help-to-fight-islamic-state/story-fncynjr2-1227058063000 .

War for peace.

Thank Christ for that.

What's your alternative, Pete ? Apart from being 'a good man doing nothing' ?

Joe

Hi Loudmouth

As a fellow surfer in Team Australia I'm all for it mate. The more troops and weapons and bombing from a great height in Iraq the more IS can see the moral error of its ways.

Also all this Australian warring on the Muslims of IS in Iraq will convince Muslim youth in Australia of? To? No connection of course - Tony said so.

Ah, the warmongers and their psychotic supporters are beating their drums, licking their lips at the thought of women and kids being blown into small pieces and whole apartment blocks demolished.

Yeah, the world is full of genetically sick and deeply programmed aberrant humans who enjoy this kind of thing, that is killing and destroying.

Soon the armchair generals and would-be flight commanders and salty navy types will engage in 'Mine's bigger than Yours' comparisons on OLO and tell us that dead kids don't matter.

Humans are sick from birth onwards. We have yet to see the full extent of their depravities!

David G as per usual you are correct, if we are not a target now by IS we soon will be, the war game is getting very messy, please Plantagenet don your uniform and off you go to Iraq, perhaps you are also an armchair general, I have donned a uniform in the past and learnt to kill, war proves nothing in the end, Japan an enemy a few years ago and now we are licking their rectum, perhaps in seventy years time we will be licking the rectum of IS and saying how wonderful they are.

Hi Pete,

And if Abbott, like yourself, a 'good man' 'did nothing' ? Would that discourage Muslim youth from ...... what ? I.e., if Abbott did nothing, would psychotics suddenly find their sanity and realise the evil of beheadings and enslavings and massacres, and the value of people with different values, living in relative co-existence: live and let live ?

If you believe that, you have too much faith in human goodness, Pete, you really are too good a person :) After all, 'live and let live' is hardly the slogan of ISIS. Or have I been brainwashed by the Guardian and the Murdoch press ?

David,

Your description of ISIS is most apt:

'Ah, the warmongers and their psychotic supporters are beating their drums, licking their lips at the thought of women and kids being blown into small pieces and whole apartment blocks demolished.

'Yeah, the world is full of genetically sick and deeply programmed aberrant humans who enjoy this kind of thing, that is killing and destroying.'

And what's the basis of that 'deep programming' ? Dick and Jane ? Fluff and Nip ? Or another book, which they've never read ?

Fifty Shades of Grey, maybe. No, they've only seen the videos.

Thanks for your support, mate :)

Cheers,

Joe

Hi Ojnab

If you can't sense that my latest post above in this thread is:

- sarcastically anti-war, and

- I'm concerned that our doings in Iraq will result in revenge terrorism in Australia

Then your knuckles draggeth while you gibber.
--

Hi Loudmouth

With Ojnab accusing me of being too warlike while you accuse me of being too pacifist, what can a stout stud like me do?

Pete

The chance to bomb some Islamic barbarians will no doubt temporarily sate the bloodlust of several of the posters on this site. Facts however have an unpleasant way of intruding.

ISIS is very much a creation of western policy as Trevor Timms (Guardian 10/9/14) Robert Fisk (Independent 12/9/14) and Nafeez Ahmed (Counterpunch 12/9/14) have made abundantly clear.

Not just "policy" but also actively created, financed, armed and trained by the US, Saudi Arabia, Qatar and others. The origins koi this policy were set out by Seymour Hershey in the New Yorker in 1997 and even earlier in Israel's Yinon Plan (1982). Only the terminally naive believe this is to establish truth, justice and the (American) way of democracy.

A similar pattern existed with the US, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia creation of al Queda in the 1890s, ostensibly to oppose the Russian presence in Afghanistan but in reality to foment unrest in the Muslim regions of the then USSR and China.

That the beast transmutes is not really a concern because they are useful for the endless justification of the GWOT with its unlimited budgets and endless war.

It never seems to occur to the armchair generals on OLO and elsewhere that there are actual geo-political forces at work, largely designed to maintain US full spectrum dominance, economically and militarily.

We are now apparently going back to Iraq in military mode. After all, why not? Iraq 2003-2013 and Afghanistan 2001 to the present have been such brilliant successes in defeating Muslim extremists, along with our ventures in Libya, Sudan, and no doubt others to follow.

Plantagenet at least you made me smile, a stout stud what can I do, just become a stouter stud rather than a stout one

James O'neil agree with you, it is not all black or all white there is always more behind these conflicts than the ordinary public are led to believe by politicians and the media, 23 beheadings in Saudi Arabia in August, is this not worthy of reporting by the Murdoch press, the US supplying arms to Saudi Arabia and others, then onto Isis I want to hear about these things by the Murdoch press rather than some obscure site, let's have the truth Tony and not your one sided version of everything, how many boat people have arrived in Australian waters, we do not know, a fighter jet with a machine gun in the vicinity MH 17 went down, reported by Malaysian newspapers but hushed up by the west, I want to know whether these things are true or false, report it, let us make up our mind, the more you hush things up, the more cynical we become of what you are telling us. A percentage of OLO people do not realise that what one tries to say is what the general public are saying about the warmongering US which creates problems all over the world in the first place, like Iraq now

I'll show you what a croc of BS this whole deception is via this short clip from youtube. Christine Lagarde is head of the IMF and this rendition you will see how our elites hold us in absolute contempt via their deceptions. Christine talks about the magic number 7 and the meaning for the future of our humanity. This is occultism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYmViPTndxw&feature=youtu.be There seems to be a block on this link,so google "Occult message in speech by Christine Lagarde of IMF" Graham would not let me post this on a discussion topic.

After viewing this short clip, note two important dates 9/11/2001 and the London Bombings of 7/7/2005. Using Christine Lagarde's logic of the "magic number 7" see this. 9+1+1+2+1 = 14 or 2X7. 7+7+2+5= 21 or 3X7. Note Christine sees the IMF playing an important role. They are going the print the US $ into oblivion and bring in their New World Order via special drawing rights of the IMF. This will be their new global currency of debt oppression.

Night Night Arjay.

But check teddy first.

When you pull teddy apart and find no camera - its not because teddy has no camera.

Its because teddy's camera was just:

REMOVED 7 minutes ago :-)

Poirot

You are deliberately attempting to "skew" the topic of this thread which is about whether Abbott's aggression is justified.

Why, in that case, would I wish to become involved with another of your generic rants on the subject of govt?

If you wait a couple of threads, I'm sure you'll get a chance to deploy your ACME auto double-standards partisan worship of big government with hypocritical self-contradictory followed by dishonest evasion button and spill your bile over successive posts.

You were saying Abbott's aggressive violence is not okay, remember?

So, come on, stop squirming and floundering. Is aggressive violence okay if it's done by government, or not? You support it in every single disagreement you've had with me, remember? You stand for the principle of open-ended unlimited aggressive violence by government, remember?

But if not then on what principle should government power be limited?

Peter-Pedo-Quim-Rimmer-Dim-BrainGram

Oh wise one who has no ideology and uses no theory to understand or explain political economy, but just receives 'pragmatic' inspiration - the government should control everything - direct from God.

I say you're contradicting yourself and when challenged hiding behind your usual ad hominem and circularity.

Prove me wrong:
Is aggressive violence okay if it's done by government, or not?
On what principle should government power be limited?

I don't know if Australia getting involved in another one of the middle east's endless wars is the correct position to take, or not.

This is a very interesting and important question that really does need careful consideration. But as usual, all we get from the America haters is their reflexive "America is always wrong" crap and "Australia is always wrong if we follow America."

From what I understand, this is now a NATO problem. Even the wimpy Germans are coming to the realisation that having an oil rich terrorist state stacked with arms and money is a serious threat to all of Europe, since the stupid Euros were dumb enough to import millions of ISIL, Al Shabbab,Al Nusra Front, HAMAS, Al Qaida and PLO supporters into their countries.

Could I remind the America haters that President Obama is a pacifist president elected on the peace vote and a stated commitment to end US involvement in middle eastern wars? If even he is getting alarmed enough to send US forces back to Iraq then the situation must be grim indeed.

We can't ask the Muslims to do the fighting because every single Muslim nation is backing one or another terrorist organisation which is presently fighting each other. This is primarily a Sunni/Shiite fight and all we are interested in doing is trying to keep the oil flowing and to help protect the Christians and Kurds who are in danger of being exterminated by one crazy faction or another.

It is probably a good thing that the RAAF is getting bombing practice dropping real live bombs on real live Muslim terrorists. It should help us a lot when the Muslims do to us in Australia what they are doing everywhere else in the world.

Here's an article worth reading for us to glean a little understanding of the tangled web of enmities and allegiances that exist in the Middle-East.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/14/opinion/sunday/thomas-l-friedman-obamas-strategy-for-fighting-isis-isnt-all-about-us.html

"THERE are three things in life that you should never do ambivalently: get married, buy a house or go to war. Alas, we’re about to do No. 3. Should we?

President Obama clearly took this decision to lead the coalition to degrade and destroy the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria, or ISIS, with deep ambivalence. How could he not? Our staying power is ambiguous, our enemy is barbarous, our regional allies are duplicitous, our European allies are feckless and the Iraqis and Syrians we’re trying to help are fractious. There is not a straight shooter in the bunch."

"Before we step up the bombing campaign on ISIS, it needs to be absolutely clear on whose behalf we are fighting. ISIS did not emerge by accident and from nowhere. It is the hate-child of two civil wars in which the Sunni Muslims have been crushed. One is the vicious civil war in Syria in which the Iranian-backed Alawite-Shiite regime has killed roughly 200,000 people, many of them Sunni Muslims, with chemical weapons and barrel bombs. And the other is the Iraqi civil war in which the Iranian-backed Shiite government of Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki systematically stripped the Sunnis of Iraq of their power and resources.

There will be no self-sustained stability unless those civil wars are ended and a foundation is laid for decent governance and citizenship. Only Arabs and Muslims can do that by ending their sectarian wars and tribal feuds. We keep telling ourselves that the problem is “training,” when the real problem is governance. We spent billions of dollars training Iraqi soldiers who ran away from ISIS’s path — not because they didn’t have proper training, but because they knew that their officers were corrupt hacks who were not appointed on merit and that the filthy Maliki government was unworthy of fighting for. We so underestimate how starved Arabs are, in all these awakenings, for clean, decent governance."

Hi Poirot,

Yes, and for all that, ISIS can't be allowed to invade more cities and territory, to massacre more 'non-believers' or to gain more military and financial power. What next - to allow them to overrun air bases and capture and use fighters and bombers ? They already control territory the size of England. If we add together what affiliated and related groups control, from Mauretania and Nigeria across to Afghanistan, it probably amounts to territory as big as Queensland, and with twenty million people. They're not chicken feed.

Yes, no doubt Obama and the West, and their 'allies' in the Middle east, face a multitude of difficulties, with a vast tangle of competing interests, but they have to find ways through all that, to defeat one of the most brutal and anti-human forces the world has seen for centuries. Or should we continue to carp and snipe ?

I hope that's not too over-the-top for you :)

Cheers,

Joe

"...but they have to find ways through all that, to defeat one of the most brutal and anti-human forces the world has seen for centuries."

You must surely be talking about the U.S. Joe, and its use of cluster bombs, white phosphorous munitions, torture unto death, depleted uranium, Agent Orange, drone fired missiles which take out whole wedding parties, keeping people in cages, sanctions which starve millions of innocent kids and civilians, etc,.

Yeah, beheading a few Americans can't compare with the atrocities carried out by the Americans!

The headline in this mornings newspapers were to the effect that Abbott had declared war on a "death cult". My first reaction was incredulity: had he really declared war on the Washington neocons? Sadly, the reality was that we were embarking on yet another war, the seeds of which we had no small part in creating in the first place, as the citations I provided in my earlier post amply make clear.

No-one will disagree with you Joe that something should be done. The issue has always been whether what we have done and what we propose to do is a rational set of policies or are we simply going to make a bad situation worse. History would suggest that we make bad policy choices for all the wrong reasons and will undoubtedly act aggrieved when the inevitable blowback occurs.

It is not by chance that most Middle East nations have not clamoured to join the latest Obama/Kerry "coalition". After all they are part of the problem more than they are part of the solution. Conspicuously silent is Turkey, erstwhile NATO ally of the Americans. It just so happens that the Islamic State so called is deriving a significant measure of its income from oil transported across the Turkey Iraq border, in trucks amazingly free from bombing by the Americans, and sold on the Turkish black market.

Given Turkey's long antipathy to an independent Kurdish state, how do you think Ankara will respond to Iraqi Kurdistan welcoming 100 percent Australia,s support. In his haste to go to war Abbott has as usual totally failed to think through the geo-political implications of his policies. Perhaps because he does not have the freedom to do so, but let's not go there unless one is accused yet again of "anti Americanism". Slogans are so much easier than actual thought.

David and James,

Ah, would that the world was simple ! I'm sure Abbott has taken all of that into account, James, and still has to push on. What's the alternative ? Allow ISIS to continue its massacres and invasions ?

I'm sure even Lenin would say "Jesus, Mary and Me, I never thought my concept of 'useful idiots' could be taken so far."

It's a wicked world, David.

Joe

Abbott is a dictator, think he has forgotten what democracy is all about, the people who voted him in do not count at all in any decision he makes.

Hi Bonejab,

Well, he was elected, and it's within his powers as PM. If he brought it before Parliament, i.e. the lower House, how do you think he would go ?

I really wish you children would get over your pissy-fits. There's a very powerful and very nasty enemy out there, and since it's an ideology rather than just an army that has to be defeated, it will be around for a long, long time.

Or do you think that's not the issue ? Then what is ?

Joe

Joe I really do not think any one of us is saying that what they are doing, beheading people, is worthy of a medal, but as David G pointed out that the US is as cruel as the beheaders in what they do in war and even on their own soil, one only hopes now that the innocent people in Iraq are not once again caught up in a "war" where they will suffer the most, being blown to bits is little different to a beheading.
We also must remember hatred creates desparate hatred, we in Australia are now also entrenched in just that.

Hi Ojnab,

Somewhere, the UZS may be beheading children and enslaving women, perhaps you're right. But until there is some evidence of that, surely we should turn our attention to the people we know for sure who are doing just that ?

And what Iraqis are going to be blown to bits by fighting back against the ISIS ? Shouldn't we be fighting back against ISIS and helping the Iraqis to do just that ? You really do talk rubbish, Onjab.

When you and David get over your childish nyah-nyahs, you might have to face the question: so what do we do ? What do we support ? What do we oppose ?

Once ISIS is defeated - and that could take some time, given that it's an ideology driving them, not some puppet-master as Arjay may think - then we can get back to worrying about how terribly evil the US is. But there's a hell of a lot of bridges to cross before then.

Yes, it really is a nasty world.

Joe

"Yes, it really is a nasty world."

Joe.

I was heartened by your admission, Joe. You are making some progress. Now, all you have to do is to join the dots between 'nasty' and 'America'.

Joe, the simple truth is that America is trying to conquer the world so it can exploit and control every nation on earth, make its oligarchs obscenely wealthy, turn its psychotic politicians into Kings.

Have a look at a world map, Joe, and see where its military bases are. Doesn't that strike you a funny, Joe, needing so many bases in so many places?

And its army, Joe. It's an army that is far bigger than is necessary to protect its mainland. Doesn't this strike you as passing strange, Joe?

And it's got nukes, Joe. Thousands of them. And many of them are in silos which point at Russia, Joe. And many of them are in high-flying warplanes which encircle our world or in nuclear submarines that infest the world's oceans.

Yeah, any thinking person, knowing these facts, could probably come to the conclusion that America is a danger to the world, that its attempt to stop Russia and China from rivaling it is going to end up in a nuclear war and the end of our Earth, Joe.

And who will you blame, Joe? As you bury your family members, who will you blame, Joe?

The Muslims of course!

Joe I may talk rubbish, but unfortunately Joe, you talk out of your bom.

Bonejob,

Gosh, so clever.

David, when the Yanks start beheading children and enslaving women, let me know :)

Yes, it's not only a wicked world but a very complicated one too. You may emblazon your flag with

'THE U.S. IS THE ONLY EVIL POWER IN THE WORLD

ALL ELSE IS PERMITTED'

but there are far more 'wicked' powers in the world at the moment, my friend. I hope you don't learn that lesson too late.

Joe

Joe, there is more than one way to "enslave" or "cut off heads" than via the crude publicity stunts of ISIS or any of their clones. Killing large number of people through drone strikes (or"bug splatter" as one drone operator charmingly called it) is but one way in which Americans have contributed to the millions of victims of their version of "democracy".

Propping up sundry Middle East despots who enslave their women is an indirect form of oppression by the US, but very real nonetheless to the millions of women suffering second class citizenship or worse in Bahrein, Saudi Arabia and elsewhere.

Why is it that decapitating three westerners is a cause for immediate outrage (largely confected in my view) but the deaths of 200,000 Syrians as a result of western sponsored "regime change", or 500,000 Iraqi women and children and old people through sanctions and no-fly zones 1991-2003 (a price "worth it" according to the US Secretary of State Albright); or the regular wholesale slaughter of Palestinians by the Zionists to name but three examples (there are literally millions more dead as examples) produces not a squeak of outrage from Abbott and his sundry ilk throughout so-called western civilised nations.?

Like too many commentators on this site you tend to confuse criticism of a country's policies with being "anti" this or that country. Frankly, that is a juvenile view which someone of your age and experience should have long since outgrown.

Hi James,

You're partly right, the US has to work with some ver4y unsavoury regi9mes, in order to combat even more unsavoury regimes. And so much can go wrong when you work with totally untrustworthy despots, to use your word, most accurate if I may say so.

So what's your remedy ? We all keep out of it, and let ISIS run rampant over nation after nation ? Because, with their ideology of world domination (or is that just US propaganda ?), sooner or later, it will be us. Don't think you can somehow make a deal, because if you are on the Left (it's so hard to tell these days) you will amongst the first up against a wall, with some psychotic punk holding up your head. Still, you might be on Youtube :)

Assuming you are on the Left, we, you and I, have to confront the reality of an extremely reactionary ideology being fought for across perhaps a few million square kilometres now, from the Atlantic to Afghanistan, soon to be extended into India. This ideology is the most anti-progressive force in the world today, deliberately anti-human (in order to mark the difference between humanity and the divine will of Allah), an ideology that no genuine Leftist in his right mind would ever associate with.

We have to make very hard choices: soon enough, we will have to choose between ISIS and the US and its coalition. The time to carp and bitch about how evil the US is will come again later. There's a far more serious issue to be dealt with first.

Joe

Would James O'Neill, David G and Ojnab please be so kind as to tell us how the West should handle the current problem in Iraq. Please tell us what ISIS will be doing next year if the West in collaboration with a few Muslim countries doesn't confront them.

I'm getting sick of people comparing the USA to some evil dark force intent on taking over the world and enslaving everyone. The US is far from perfect, but if you were forced to choose between living in the USA or Australia or living in Iraq, Iran, Syria, or Russia, there's no question where you would go you pack of hypocrites... and if there is then why don't you get on your bikes and go there if its so great.

How about showing some support for a change.

Joe, you ask "what's your remedy"? In order to produce a solution one must first correctly identify the problem. IS is not THE problem, it is the result of a more fundamental problem. Its origins and characteristics were well explained in the three articles I cited in an earlier post. None of the are "left" commentators for what such labels are worth.

The fundamental problem is that for at least the past 70 years the US has been the main source of instability and war throughout the world. See William Blum's September anti-Empire Report post for an update. Facts you never see discussed in the Oz media. The reality is amply documented.

It is accompanied by an immense propaganda barrage that seeks to persuade us that however muddled or disastrous those US interventions have been they have always been done with the best of intentions.

If one cannot get past that propaganda and see it for what it is, then dialogue is as useless as talking to the proverbial brick wall. You will recognise the main culprits on this website with comparative ease.

It follows in my view (neither left, right nor any other unhelpful labelling) that in order to prevent the problems from arising in the first place one must cease the activities that give rise to the problems. As you are no doubt aware, one definition of insanity is to repeat the same process and expect a different result.

I have no confidence that the US will change in my lifetime, although radical changes are nearer than many think. I do however, care enough about Australia to be dismayed by what Bruce Haigh correctly identified as Abbott's rush to the cliff.

continued

continued:

If we do not formulate a more intelligent foreign policy (a huge ask I know) that genuinely reflects Australia's interests, then we are doomed to involvement in and endless series of other people's wars. In the Middle East we hear the same arguments that were used to justify the Vietnam War. That was lie then, designed to hide an imperialist agenda. It is equally a lie today, whether it is in the Middle east, Ukraine, or elsewhere.

There are those who believe that aligning ourselves with endless American lawlessness ( and I use the word advisedly - see Phillipe Sands for example) we are making an ongoing series of down payments on some form of US guaranteed insurance policy. That is dangerously naive as well as self-evidently against our real interests.

The unipolar world of 1945-2000 is changing rapidly, much more so than the msm either recognises or acknowledges. How much coverage for example, has been given to this month's SCO conference?

We have a choice in Australia, notwithstanding Abbott's bumble headed approach fully supported by the deplorable Shorten. Do we continue with the old world or do we seek a range of policies that reflect our real interests, ones that recognise our geographical location and the overwhelming importance of our traded relationships.

Ask yourself a simple question. Of the world's 190 or so countries, how many have raised their security level to "high" as a result of the latest rounds in the Middle East? I think that thou will find it is a very small number. What do they have in common those that have raised their security levels? They have all joined in the latest burst of war-mongering in the Middle East. That should tell you something.

Hi James,

Just working my way through your article:
WHY AUSTRALIA’S PRESENCE IN AFGHANISTAN IS UNTENABLE
on http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/2010/AustraliasUntenable.pdf

I think it's a little paranoid, with a blanket disavowal that al Qa'ida was involved in 9/11, and a shortage of alternative strategies, but I'll keep at it :)

I think you are bit hard on Abbott, I suspect he's a lot more hard-headed about any relationship with the US than you suggest, I don't go much on the 'puppet' stuff. I'd leave that to Arjay on the right and others on the left.

Joe

Thank you James for an excellent answer to Joe, perhaps Joe doesn't know that Credo says : Stop the rush to another disastrous war in the Middle East and asking for the ordinary people to sign the petition. Abbott unfortunately opens his big smirky mouth and rushes into anything the US may want, Julia Gillard was no better.
ConservationHippie you wonder why we question the USA in war games, one example being the dropping of cluster bombs in Laos, these bombs have crippled many Laos people with legs, arms, blindness or death
being the result of stepping on these bombs, they possibly will be there for one hundred years or more, the USA should be in that country cleaning up its dirty deeds, of course as David G pointed out there are many other cruel acts by the US.
The US is circling China with its war games in Australia ,India ,Japan, has China indicated to us that we are on the hit list, why don't we have Chinese troops in the areas mentioned for war games with the US
Ordinary people do not want wars, it is warmongering Governments that are the problem, unfortunately those in power never ever join the front ranks of the killing fields, perhaps if we returned to the days of old where they led the battle there would be no wars, somebody else can get killed but not me, likewise Joe and CH you fit that role as well.

Regardless of how you want to point the finger at the USA and bring up nasty deeds committed over 40 years ago, the world moves on. We are in the here and now which includes a very nasty group terrorising Iraq.

Its fine to say ISIS is not the problem, the problem is that US policies created ISIS. But what next? Please James, tell us what to do about ISIS now that it has manifested and is brutally killing people, lots of people. ISIS isn't going to go away on its own. So please James, enlighten us as how to best address ISIS and to get them to stop the slaughter. No woofy talk, give us a real workable solution to consider. If you don't have a good alternative to offer up, your comments really are nothing more than verbal diarrhea.

@CH. I generally do not respond to people who hide behind a non de plume and that is especially the case when the comments are personalised and offensive.

If you think that the US's "bad deeds" were confined to 40 years ago you clearly have not been paying attention, either to the real world or the comments posted on this forum.

You want instant answers to complex issues. Read my last post and actually think about what I said. If you cannot do that then you might like to refrain from taking up time and space on this forum.

Joe I most certainly hope that you read letters to the editor in the Advertiser this morning, presuming you live in Adelaide, perhaps James O'neil, David G and myself are not the only ones who are worried about the consequences of the invasion in Iraq again. by the coalition of the willing.
Brian Paterson

Hi Onjab,

Do you mean, in response to the invasion by the most reactionary forces in the world today, the 'Caliphate" ?

And what happens if the US and its coalition doesn't get involved ? How long would the Iraqi government last ?

The US is in a terrible dilemma (which may gladden your heart): how to keep the 'Caliphate' and the Iranians apart. Because, if ISIS invades into the Shia heartland of Iraq, Iran will have to intervene (they already are, behind the scenes). And if that intervention becomes open, whether in defence of Iraq or of Assad in Syria, then the various reactionary Sunni powers, the Saudis and perhaps Turkey, will intervene as well, and then it will be on for young and old, from India to the Atlantic, and from Oman to central Asia.

If the US fails in this attempt, we WILL be drawn into a huge war. If they succeed - and that will take years, I suspect - then hopefully, the ISIS and al Qa'ida and Taliban and Al-shabaab etc. forces will be pushed back for a time.

But if ISIS and al-Qa'ida come to an agreement, then the combined reactionary forces of a 'Caliphate' will roll over the reactionary Assad forces in Syria and the Iraqi government as well. Then the Iranians will move in, in part quite legitimately to prevent huge massacres of Shia in both countries. If they do, the other Sunni powers, the Saudis, etc., will increase their funding of the ISIS-al Qa'ida forces, and we really will be in trouble.

So the US has to somehow prevent so much of that from happening, as early in the process as possible. It certainly is a 'witches brew of complexity'.

And what might be the flow-on in Indonesia of an ISIS-al Qa'ida victory, if the US doesn't get involved any further ? Do you really think your head is securely on your shoulders, not just for a year or two, or five years, but in ten years' time ?

Ultimately this is a struggle within Islam. But don't kid yourself.

Joe

Dear James I appreciate your generous exception and response to my comments.

I have gone back through both your previous posts and I still do not see one iota of a suggestion how the world can or should deal with the immediate crisis ISIS presents.

I agree if Australia had a different foreign policy the Government might take a different approach. But it doesn't. Same for the USA.

ISIS is more than a western propaganda stunt. I see a lot of talk but no real time practical alternatives being offered from you or Ojnab. I do see the beginnings of a self admiration society starting to form between all those who are paranoid enough to believe the USA is more dangerous to our way of life than letting ISIS go unchecked. That is my opinion is plain crazy.

I think we feel exactly the same about each other.