The 1500 kg of LiFePO4 batteries in the Newington Grid Battery commissioned at Ausgrid last May, contain the same stored energy amount when fully charged, as 12 litres of unleaded petrol. Which does not quite weigh 12 kg.

Of course we judge the cost-effectiveness of power storage on the basis of current technologies. What else are we supposed to do? If technology improves then we get a bonus, but to try and plan on the assumption that a particular technology will materialise is simply madness.

"That there windfarm is too far away to be any use, Jarge!"
"Ah, but wait till we get our Stargate, Henry!"

Further to my previous comment, the energy density of nuclear fuel is 20,000 times higher than petrol when used in the current generation of light water reactor (LWR) and up to 2,000,000 times higher when used in a breeder reactor.

Since unleaded petrol is 100 times more energy dense than the new Newington Grid Battery installation, it follows that nuclear fuel is 2,000,000 to 200,000,000 times more energy dense than those batteries.

Forget renewables. Move to the future. It's nuclear for many more reasons than just the energy density and all the important benefits that advantage alone delivers: e.g. four to six orders of magnitude small storage volume than fossil fuels, can store many years or decades of a country's fuel for electricity generation in one or more warehouses, 4-6 orders of magnitude less shipping and transport, 4-6 orders of magnitude less oil used for transporting fuel for electricity generation and 4-6 orders of magnitude less CO2 from burning oil for transport; much greater energy security for countries as a result of the ability to store years and decades of nuclear fuel.

Battery enthusiasts are merrily predicting large improvements in cost and performance. It seems not counting chickens before they are hatched doesn't apply. The round trip efficiency of wind-to-gas is under 40% ie it wastes 60-70% of the original energy. In Germany this is done by splitting water with wind powered electricity to get hydrogen, combining it with CO2 scrubbed from biogas to get artificial methane then storing it in the natural gas grid. In theory this has far greater capacity than batteries except it is grossly inefficient and the source of cheap CO2 is limited.

Unless there is a radical improvement in cheap storage it will be cheaper to generate most power in real time. We'll need affordable low carbon power on demand.

"We'll need affordable low carbon power on demand."

Yes, Taswegian, and how would you suggest we achieve that?

What could actually be done that has a high probability of success?

What is your success measure, what is your estimate of the probability of achieving it, and what is the basis for your estimate of the probability of achieving it?

The debate over energy storage utterly misses the point:

We already have plenty of efficient ways to store energy - and we can expect these to improve even further.

However, wherever there is a high concentration of energy, there is a greater risk of accidents, whereby this energy will come loose and cause enormous damage.

I would have invested myself in photo-electric equipment on my roof with a battery-farm that would suffice to make me independent of the electric grid or any other external source of energy. The only reason I didn't do so, is the risk of fire that those batteries would pose, which I was advised of.

This is a problem of a general nature, not about this the ability to improve this or that device, but about a physical principle.

Well, GM are currently trialing a new battery, that is at least twice as good as Lithium phosphate.
And batteries only ever become a problem, when they go to land fill; and or, aren't recycled!
The new battery is said to be able to be recharged up to 80%, in the time it takes to take a coffee/comfort break!?
And given that's nearly 500 kilometres worth of endlessly replaceable stored energy, more than enough to conquer the tyranny of distance?
Even so, we have a locally invented option, with a far better range!
And that is seriously lighter, CNG powered, ceramic fuel cell driven, electric vehicles.
And given the energy conversion is a chemical rather than a combustion process! The exhaust product is mostly water vapor.
Back to batteries, who knows how much carbon they produce as endlessly recharged vehicles?
Inboard gas to energy conversion is far and away, more cost effective than burning it a thousand miles away, and then losing half of it as transmission line losses etc.
The gas/ceramic cell combination has an energy coefficient of 80%, the highest in the world, and around double the next best thing.
And a fuel cell is lighter than batteries or an engine; or both and, with far fewer moving parts to wear out!
Rhrosty.

I find the article odd because it makes the obvious point that there is no one power storage solution for all situations, but then concentrates on lithium batteries. Just to complete the picture here is a list of some of the possibilities and their applications.

Pumped water storage
Originally introduced to capture the power otherwise wasted by nuclear power plants.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinorwig_Power_Station

Compressed air storage.
Uses transport, air tools, and grid power storage.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_air_energy_storage

Flywheel energy storage
Electric power storage and regenerative braking electric vehicles
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/new-flywheel-design/

Gravitational potential energy storage
Electric power storage no losses over time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_storage#Gravitational_potential_energy_storage

Thermal storage
Heating and cooling and as a medium to store heat for later electric generation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_energy_storage

Rechargeable batteries
Mostly small electric devices, off grid homes, and a few large scale batteries for peek power.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_energy_storage#Batteries

Electrolysis.
Generate hydrogen for later use in fuel cells and as transport fuel.

For an overview of grid storage.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_energy_storage

A few of points
Tasmania is in a great position for renewable power it is slap bang in the middle of the roaring 40s and places like Cape Grim have average wind speeds over 35 Kph. Now on the few occasions when the windmills have to be shut down (mostly when the wind exceeds 80 Kph) the short fall is made up for by hydro power. Wind power (4 to 5 cents per kWh) when available, is cheaper than power from a new coal station.

http://reneweconomy.com.au/2013/renewables-now-cheaper-than-coal-and-gas-in-australia-62268

Lithium batteries of poor quality can be a fire risk but good batteries come with a 10 year guarantee and are very unlikely to pose a fire risk. Lead acid batteries are cheaper but you need more of them. The important point is they may produce hydrogen but with adequate ventilation this should not pose a serious problem.

The cost of spot power is quoted at $1 to $12.5 per kWh compared to the base wholesale rate of about 10 cents per kWh. This provides ample opportunity for renewables to be profitable even if they have to use inefficient storage systems.

Regarding charging electric cars in a short time.
A bit of maths shows that to do so means a mains connection of some
hundreds of amps. Also the heat generated in the battery is not
conducive to long life.

Regarding housing off grid, I have recently been reading of NIFE batteries.
I had previously forgotten about them, as they were something I learnt
about in my early electric education, but when considering the replacement
costs of batteries they come out well in front. You can even recondition failed cells yourself !
They last virtually forever.

Yuyutsu is worried about fire etc with the large amount of stored energy.
Good point, but for off grid, some isolation. Proper fusing or circuit
breakers should reduce risks there to manageable levels.

If off the grid was possible where I now live I would definitely work
towards it. I suspect my roof space is not enough to support such
a project, much the pity.
However there is a big difference in my off peak rate and max rate.
Now that raises a possibility of charging a bank of NIFE cells at off
peak rates and using the cells at peak times, hmmm where is the calculator ?

Warmair, your list is interesting. I had previously wondered about one
of the suggestions in your list, ie gravity.
Rather than the railway suggestion, why not a large frame or a mine or
an unused open cut mine and build a very large weight to be hoisted by
electric motor(s) to a great height and then let down driving the
motors as generators.
Must be practical I think but the maths would tell us if it is worthwhile.

I'd love to introduce some of you to my brother in law.

Having lived with solar & battery banks for his home, phone & internet connection for 12 years he reckons heaven on earth id connection to the mains grid. He says nothing on earth is worth having to supply your own power.

Incidentally those poor Germans will try anything with all that useless wind power they have when it blows. They can't feed it into their grid, without blowing it up, they hate giving it to Sweden, & it would be political suicide to admit it was about the worst decision/investment made by any countries government in 50 years.

Yes that even includes our NBN.

It is perfectly possible to have all mod cons and not be connected to the power grid, but it needs to be planned and it does require you spend a fair amount of money to achieve it, a couple of old car batteries and 2 or 3 solar panels is just not going to cut it.

These days anyone living over a kilometre from the power line can install a really good solar system at less than the cost of bringing power to the property. To put this in perspective the last quote I saw to bring power from the nearest power line over a K away was about $50,000. To give some idea of the costs involved for $10,000 you should easily be able to install a system that will run a fridge, lighting,TV,computers, audio equipment, in fact anything that does not need much more than 600 watts.

The real problems occur when you want to heat something such as food or water. The water can be heated with a solar hot waters system but realistically the best option is have bottle gas or combustion stove as a back up.

As for heating the building itself if the house is really well designed, which the majority of Australian houses are not, insulation and passive solar heating will be adequate most of the time with the occasional resort to a combustion stove for particularly cold nights.

As a child the only electricity we had in the house came in the form of a dry cell 1.5volt battery. We used gas for lighting, cooking and the fridge. When we finally did get mains power the two things that were a real joy was being able to flick a switch to get light and being able to vacuum the carpets. For heating we used peat or wood in an open fireplace and very warm pullovers.

Ah yes Hasbeen, I am well aware of the problems associated with off
the grid systems. Approaching as a hobby of course makes it a bit
different.I think batteries would be the biggest maintenance problem.

That is why I brought up the idea of NIFE batteries.
They are available and have suggested lifetimes of 35 plus years.
I think they are larger than lithium or lead acid batteries, but not a
great problem for a backyard shed.
They appear to be very robust and cells can be rebuilt and put back in service easily.
They can be left uncharged or unused for years and then just switch
them on and away they go.
The cost I thought was reasonable for that sort of service.

"FRAUD, BIAS AND PUBLIC RELATIONS: The 97% ‘consensus’ and its critics"
http://www.thegwpf.org/content/uploads/2014/09/Warming-consensus-and-it-critics.pdf

If what this paper says is basically correct, it demonstrates the sort of cr@p the climate cultists have been swallowing for over two decades – including President Obama, his chief adviser John Holdren, and Labor and Green cultists like Bob Brown, Christine Milne, Rudd, Gillard, Wong, Combet and the rest of the loony left.

I reckon it’s all over bar the shouting, the moaning and winging about “Deniers and Skeptics” and then moving on to whatever is to become the next loony Leftist’s cult.

What say you?

Bazz I wish you luck. I used to supply the plastic raw materials for Telecom batteries. They were huge 2 volt units for solar charged instillations, used in multiples. May be they had a long life, but they never stopped buying replacements.

I ran my boat on 4 large very heavy plate deep cycle 6 volt led acid batteries, made for me by the bloke building the Telecom batteries. When used permanently for lighting, connected to a trickle charger, connected to mains power they lasted for 6 years. When cruising, charged by a mixture of solar cell, wind generator, & the only reliable power, & Honda S800 generator, & kept up near fully charged, they lasted a little over 3. They were rebuildable, but only by top battery makers.

Warmair where do you get this stuff? During our last flood, 5 days without power, my near new 2.5 KVA gen set could not start my fridge freezer. It tripped out or stalled every time I tried. It could just manage the little beer fridge. It also tripped out every time a water pressure pump started, if we didn't turn everything else off first.

I now have a new 10 KVA diesel gen set. It will run the fridge freezer, but can't handle water & a washing machine, unless the fridge is disconnected.

Yes you can buy "special" very expensive gear, but to run a normal suburban home, it would have no chance.

Hasbeen, I was surprised that your 2.5kva generator could not start
the frig. What was the size of the frig ?
Was the engine throttle speed control acting fast enough ?
Normally the flywheel should keep it going long enough until the
frig motor got up some speed and the control opened the throttle.
It did have one did it ?

Bazz, it was a fridge freezer, with 2 separate compressors. To start with I did not realise it had 2 compressors. Together they drew more than the safety cut out on the 2.5 with both starting together.

To me it was just the fridge, & of no interest, until it wouldn't start. When I looked & found the 2 compressors, one for each function. I disconnected the fridge, & got the freezer going, trying to use it, & the bar fridge,

Of course murphy's law meant both of them would try to start at once, or a pressure pump of some other thing would require starting power. I suppose there are more frustrating things than trying to run a house on chicken power, but not many. I lost about 40 kilo of beef in the chest freezer too.

The 10 KVA is 3 phase, as I can't get 3 phase here from mains, & this helped justify buying the thing. This makes it frustrating as it has only 3 point something on each 240 phase, & can't be plugged into the house without some expensive stuff. My son reckons he'll make me something to do the job when he's home next.

Providing your own power has hair on it as far as I am concerned.

Yes understand Hasbeen, a simple timer wired between the two compressors would have ensured they never both start at the same time.
It could even be wired so no matter which one was turned on the time would delay the other.

There is web site, which I did not keep, of an Australian company that
makes NIFE batteries and they make them up to 50 amp hr if I remember.
I am looking into using them for a radio site.

BTW, on a web site of a club that Belly belongs to I have seen a
reference to him, so he is still around.