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The Forum > Article Comments > Why the debate over energy storage utterly misses the point > Comments

Why the debate over energy storage utterly misses the point : Comments

By Chris Dalby, published 5/9/2014

Just last week, a report by Swiss bank UBS showed how the linked development of energy storage, solar power and electric vehicles is changing the economics of power generation.

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Well, GM are currently trialing a new battery, that is at least twice as good as Lithium phosphate.
And batteries only ever become a problem, when they go to land fill; and or, aren't recycled!
The new battery is said to be able to be recharged up to 80%, in the time it takes to take a coffee/comfort break!?
And given that's nearly 500 kilometres worth of endlessly replaceable stored energy, more than enough to conquer the tyranny of distance?
Even so, we have a locally invented option, with a far better range!
And that is seriously lighter, CNG powered, ceramic fuel cell driven, electric vehicles.
And given the energy conversion is a chemical rather than a combustion process! The exhaust product is mostly water vapor.
Back to batteries, who knows how much carbon they produce as endlessly recharged vehicles?
Inboard gas to energy conversion is far and away, more cost effective than burning it a thousand miles away, and then losing half of it as transmission line losses etc.
The gas/ceramic cell combination has an energy coefficient of 80%, the highest in the world, and around double the next best thing.
And a fuel cell is lighter than batteries or an engine; or both and, with far fewer moving parts to wear out!
Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Friday, 5 September 2014 12:18:39 PM
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I find the article odd because it makes the obvious point that there is no one power storage solution for all situations, but then concentrates on lithium batteries. Just to complete the picture here is a list of some of the possibilities and their applications.

Pumped water storage
Originally introduced to capture the power otherwise wasted by nuclear power plants.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinorwig_Power_Station

Compressed air storage.
Uses transport, air tools, and grid power storage.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_air_energy_storage

Flywheel energy storage
Electric power storage and regenerative braking electric vehicles
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/new-flywheel-design/

Gravitational potential energy storage
Electric power storage no losses over time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_storage#Gravitational_potential_energy_storage

Thermal storage
Heating and cooling and as a medium to store heat for later electric generation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_energy_storage

Rechargeable batteries
Mostly small electric devices, off grid homes, and a few large scale batteries for peek power.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_energy_storage#Batteries

Electrolysis.
Generate hydrogen for later use in fuel cells and as transport fuel.

For an overview of grid storage.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_energy_storage

A few of points
Tasmania is in a great position for renewable power it is slap bang in the middle of the roaring 40s and places like Cape Grim have average wind speeds over 35 Kph. Now on the few occasions when the windmills have to be shut down (mostly when the wind exceeds 80 Kph) the short fall is made up for by hydro power. Wind power (4 to 5 cents per kWh) when available, is cheaper than power from a new coal station.

http://reneweconomy.com.au/2013/renewables-now-cheaper-than-coal-and-gas-in-australia-62268

Lithium batteries of poor quality can be a fire risk but good batteries come with a 10 year guarantee and are very unlikely to pose a fire risk. Lead acid batteries are cheaper but you need more of them. The important point is they may produce hydrogen but with adequate ventilation this should not pose a serious problem.

The cost of spot power is quoted at $1 to $12.5 per kWh compared to the base wholesale rate of about 10 cents per kWh. This provides ample opportunity for renewables to be profitable even if they have to use inefficient storage systems.
Posted by warmair, Friday, 5 September 2014 4:58:55 PM
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Regarding charging electric cars in a short time.
A bit of maths shows that to do so means a mains connection of some
hundreds of amps. Also the heat generated in the battery is not
conducive to long life.

Regarding housing off grid, I have recently been reading of NIFE batteries.
I had previously forgotten about them, as they were something I learnt
about in my early electric education, but when considering the replacement
costs of batteries they come out well in front. You can even recondition failed cells yourself !
They last virtually forever.

Yuyutsu is worried about fire etc with the large amount of stored energy.
Good point, but for off grid, some isolation. Proper fusing or circuit
breakers should reduce risks there to manageable levels.

If off the grid was possible where I now live I would definitely work
towards it. I suspect my roof space is not enough to support such
a project, much the pity.
However there is a big difference in my off peak rate and max rate.
Now that raises a possibility of charging a bank of NIFE cells at off
peak rates and using the cells at peak times, hmmm where is the calculator ?
Posted by Bazz, Monday, 8 September 2014 1:18:18 PM
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Warmair, your list is interesting. I had previously wondered about one
of the suggestions in your list, ie gravity.
Rather than the railway suggestion, why not a large frame or a mine or
an unused open cut mine and build a very large weight to be hoisted by
electric motor(s) to a great height and then let down driving the
motors as generators.
Must be practical I think but the maths would tell us if it is worthwhile.
Posted by Bazz, Monday, 8 September 2014 1:26:22 PM
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I'd love to introduce some of you to my brother in law.

Having lived with solar & battery banks for his home, phone & internet connection for 12 years he reckons heaven on earth id connection to the mains grid. He says nothing on earth is worth having to supply your own power.

Incidentally those poor Germans will try anything with all that useless wind power they have when it blows. They can't feed it into their grid, without blowing it up, they hate giving it to Sweden, & it would be political suicide to admit it was about the worst decision/investment made by any countries government in 50 years.

Yes that even includes our NBN.
Posted by Hasbeen, Monday, 8 September 2014 3:40:08 PM
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It is perfectly possible to have all mod cons and not be connected to the power grid, but it needs to be planned and it does require you spend a fair amount of money to achieve it, a couple of old car batteries and 2 or 3 solar panels is just not going to cut it.

These days anyone living over a kilometre from the power line can install a really good solar system at less than the cost of bringing power to the property. To put this in perspective the last quote I saw to bring power from the nearest power line over a K away was about $50,000. To give some idea of the costs involved for $10,000 you should easily be able to install a system that will run a fridge, lighting,TV,computers, audio equipment, in fact anything that does not need much more than 600 watts.

The real problems occur when you want to heat something such as food or water. The water can be heated with a solar hot waters system but realistically the best option is have bottle gas or combustion stove as a back up.

As for heating the building itself if the house is really well designed, which the majority of Australian houses are not, insulation and passive solar heating will be adequate most of the time with the occasional resort to a combustion stove for particularly cold nights.

As a child the only electricity we had in the house came in the form of a dry cell 1.5volt battery. We used gas for lighting, cooking and the fridge. When we finally did get mains power the two things that were a real joy was being able to flick a switch to get light and being able to vacuum the carpets. For heating we used peat or wood in an open fireplace and very warm pullovers.
Posted by warmair, Monday, 8 September 2014 10:22:12 PM
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