I think you have highlighted a relevant issue Brian - that chaplains should be trained on Psychology and gay issues so that they can help gay students who are having a hard time and are at risk of suicide.

However, as a Christian believer myself, I think that at least one person with this knowledge/ awareness of the spiritual needs of humanity is also very valuable to have in schools.

Non- Christians such as yourself focus on the 'non-sense' in literal terms of the Christ story. I am a scientist and and a Christian and I have no trouble reconciling Christianity with science because the former is about mystery and the language is metaphorical. But spiritual Christian faith has brought comfort to billions over the ages.

I agree with you that the 'Christian religious right' who interpret 'God's will' to be homo- phobic (on the grounds of a few ancient pre-Christian 'Jewish background' texts from the Old Testament such as Leviticus), are wrong.

You may be comforted to know that worldwide, many church parishes - notably Anglican, United and Presbyterian are now 'progressive' and are inclusive of LGBT people and as you say recognize the science on the issue.

Another point raised against chaplains is 'why Christian - why not say Buddhist or Muslim?. Well my answer to that is that chaplains should have some knowledge of all of these faiths and be accepting of them. But I think that many of the positive aspects of our national culture stemmed from Christianity and can see no need to change that in schools; rather keep up that tradition that is unfortunately on the wane in our society.

' Some 30 per cent of all youth suicides are from LGBTI kids who didn’t or couldn’t get the care and support they really needed. '

really? and how do you come to that conclusion or is this just another bit of propaganda to suite the narrative.

If anything, if these dubious stats are anywhere near true the homosexual lifestyle should not be promoted as the gay lobby seems so bent on doing. Leave the kids alone.

You say you oppose the chaplaincy program outright so why not tell us why you oppose it outright? To oppose something outright means that there are fundamental arguments which mean that it should not exist. Drawing up a list of reasons why you do not like the school chaplaincy program does not add up to an outright argument. Outright means that the program should not exist no matter what elements it contains such as the ones you have outlined.

You say you want to leave aside the fact that the program undermines the separation between church and state. This is the fundamental reason why the program should be abolished outright. Why would you want to leave aside the fundamental argument unless you are not really concerned with abolishing the program but rather more concerned with detailing the victim status of one particular group.

There are many particular groups who are victims of the school chaplaincy program and who have their natural instincts questioned and distorted by the personal agendas of religious chaplains. These groups do not call for better awareness of their own particular issues but call for an abolition of the program altogether so that everyone is free of such interference in their own personal development. If every school chaplain had the attitudes to homosexuality that you would like them to have would that then make the program acceptable to you? Calling for the program to be abolished outright would simply make you a hypocrite.

It seems you are not concerned about the welfare of students but more concerned with telling us all how much homosexual people suffer and how much you have suffered. We all know this – people like you take all sorts of opportunities such as this debate on school chaplaincy programs to tell us. Perhaps you are really trying to convince yourself of your suffering because you are not entirely sure it is true.

It is notable that Brian makes no attempt to provide evidence that chaplains have discriminated against LGBTI kids. His argument is one of guilt by association: some Christian groups are homophobic, and most chaplains are Christians, so some chaplains most be homophobic. This is rubbish, and judging people according to the categories they belong to is one of the coarsest though commonest forms of prejudice. Happily, society is less and less inclined to discriminate against LGBTI in this way. Christians, apparently, are fair game, however.

Any form of bigotry or discrimination directed at kids for any reason (race, sexuality, religion) by professionals working with them is completely unacceptable. Teachers, chaplains, counsellors, medical staff etc. should be disciplined if they act in this way. But Brian’s presumption of guilt is as much prejudice as the homophobia he rightly deplores.

Sorry Rhian, but unless these Chaplains have more qualifications under their belt than bible studies with their respective churches, then they are not 'professionals' like teachers and psychologists.

We need trained counselors in our public schools, not Chaplains.
The parents can send their kids for religious 'counseling' after school hours...

Suseonline
I completely agree that theology or bible school does not qualify a person for chaplaincy. Chaplains should undertake whatever training is necessary to perform their functions professionally.

However, Brian’s argument seems to be that theology or bible school automatically renders someone UNqualified to be a chaplain, and that’s another proposition entirely.

We just don't need bigots of any flavor or description peddling their beliefs, inside a school and at kids, when they are at their most impressionable and vulnerable.
The real reason for wanting them there, at that critical time.
It simply stinks of a new age crusade!
It's just not good enough to claim,you only respond to questions about belief! Normal kids are chock full of inquisitorial questions!
Let the kids grow up and first learn critical thinking, before being exposed to myth, dressed up as irrefutable truth, when no such proof exists.
If these folk where able to heal the sick, restore sight, get the wheelchair bound up and walking, they may have claims that support a faith based belief system.
The fact that they refer to a seriously serially revised book, as their licence to preach, only makes their position more untenable.
If we have to have them, then let them be accepted by a popular vote of all parents, and an overwhelming 80% majority!
My kids were exposed to many religions and faith based belief systems, one of which happens to be faith based theory of evolution?
And then allowed to make their own educated decisions, as discriminating young adults!
Just believing that the world is flat, doesn't make it flat or that homosexuality, is against Gods will!
If that were actually true, homosexuality, wouldn't exist, as it does in many aspects of nature.
We stopped burning witches at the stake, because it was a faith based belief that had no foundation in fact!
We need to extend that pragmatism to every other aspect of life!
How many of these people and their flawed beliefs have caused to very confused young folk, to take their own lives, as the only way out, given nobody extant on the planet, is actually change their basic nature!?
If the Chaps need counselling, to stop them spreading dangerous or destructive beliefs, then perhaps it really is time we replaced them, with far more professional councilors, not on a covert recruitment drive!
Rhrosty.

There is in every village a torch - the teacher;
And an extinguisher - the clergyman.

Victor Hugo.

I cry "Red Herring"

While suicide of any young person is tragic, risk implied in this article is way overstated. Check out ABS suicide stats.

All examples are the sum of 4 years from 2008 - 2012.

Total deaths 5 - 14yr olds Australia wide = 57 Average 14 per year.
Over 26% identified as Aboriginal or Torres Strait Island descent. Knowing levels of, particularly sexual, abuse in some communities it is fair conclusion circumstances other than sexual orientation were key drivers in most events. Likewise in remaining 74% identified as non-indigenous or no racial background recorded, likely very few who suicided over sexual confusion.

Next the 15-24 age range where the figure jumps to 1529. Only interested in the 15 - 18 demographic so let's say that represents absolute maximum of 40% which is approx 612 in 4 years, average 153 per year.

In 2008 there were 9562 schools in Australia. The number of High Schools >3,000. It doesn't take a mathematician to deduce a student suicide is an uncommon event statistically for any school.

Statistically highest rates of suicide were in the 35-44 and 45-54 age groups respectively and exceeded the 15-24 rate by well over 50%. In fact after the very low 5-14 rate, the 15-24s had the lowest rate of suicide.

I know 2 families in my community who lost High school age kids to suicide. One, after his beloved grandad who'd been his father figure, died. Another female who had been molested by a relative - started out self harming eventually overdosed.

I'd venture an educated guess that the depressed state preceding suicide in majority of High School student cases is not triggered by sexual confusion but a range of other more common factors like bullying, family and relationship problems, sexual abuse, emerging mental illness (bi-polar and schizophrenia often start developing in mid - late teens - sometimes earlier).

School Chaplains are to my best knowledge trained counsellors and religious views are not pushed - at least not in secular schools. Brian Greig has more "spin" than Shane Warne

Divine_msn "School Chaplains are to my best knowledge trained counsellors and religious views are not pushed - at least not in secular schools."

If this is true, then why call them Chaplains?
If they don't push religious views, then why have bible-trained people doing this job in secular schools?
Why not just counsellors?

I am hoping no one will suggest that Christian "counsellors" are more qualified than anyone else....

Susie, I think the spiritual side of counselling is not a matter of being qualified or passing exams (although in a previous post I've said I agree with the need for at least basic psychology qualifications in addition to spiritual faith).

Christian spiritual faith is an 'affective' (feeling) thing as well as having knowledge of the teachings of Jesus Christ. As Christians we know that it's not WHAT you are (how popular, successful etc) it's WHO you are (loving, caring, considerate etc). Helping troubled students to be aware of this can be very healing.

Hope this helps

On the aspect on school chaplains supposedly not being involved in outreach activities. Here is one I prepared earlier http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12461#215263

I'm a former financial supporter of school chaplaincy, I used to know quite a few of those engaged as school chaplains and I've yet to see any evidence that my own knowledge or experience of the chaplaincy goals was out of the ordinary. The chaplains I knew were there first and formost to try and use that access to evangelise kids or use the access as a feeder to other programs were kids would be evangelised, holiday camps, youth groups etc.

For those with doubts have a look at the current home page of Scripture Union, one of the big players in the field.

R0bert

I'll stress my original point: Incidence of suicide amongst High School students is uncommon.

Approximately 150 per year over 3000 plus high schools - assuming the majority of people in that age demographic were actually at school. Some would not.

Even accepting Brian Greigs assertion that "Some 30 per cent of all youth suicides are from LGBTI kids who didn’t or couldn’t get the care and support they really needed." that equates to 45 unfortunate young people Australia wide over some 3000+ High Schools. I would like to know how Greig collated his figures though.

I don't have numbers to support or disprove suggestion rates of student suicide have fallen since introduction of the chaplaincy program. I do know, despite National campaigns in Suicide Awareness and much money invested in "Prevention" - there is still a sizeable number of people taking their own lives.

This despite numerous SECULAR Trained Professionals available in the Community to whom troubled souls can turn for help. Likewise - look at other services presided over by similarly Trained Professionals - like Childrens Services. If you are not shuddering yet, you should be.

Chaplains offer a sympathetic ear for starters (Christianity teaches "Judge not") and beyond - referral to specific services if the young persons issues are out of the Chaplains league. Though I don't know any personally, I have several relatives and friends working in schools - in teaching and administrative positions who have nothing but praise for the job their "Chappies" do.

One theme I've heard repeated: Chaplains are predominately male. Troubled kids are more common in single parent (mother) homes. Boys in particular get a great deal of satisfaction being able to sit and talk to a upright man (as opposed to some alcohol/drug addled aggro fool who is likely Mum's new BF) who will listen to their problems and talk with them.

This whole argument is basically much ado about nothing. If a Chaplain was found using his or her position to push a religious viewpoint first and foremost I'm sure there would be a mechanism available to have them replaced

Divine msn - good points you have made and thanks for the stats you cited, which I am assuming are correct.

As you say it would be interesting to see how many student suicides actually were LGBT- related and how those stats have changed since the chaplains have been in schools.

I think its a bit rich of Brian to insinuate that these suicides have actually got worse because of chaplains when in fact the reverse may well be true.

I doubt that there would be any right wing evangelical school chaplains doing their extreme stuff in state or orthodox Christian(e.g Catholic, Anglican, Uniting Church)schools. Such people would surely be vetted out in the employment process or weeded out through performance reviews. Pushing any views such as or homophobia or for that matter creationism would of course be entirely inappropriate and I can't see them lasting long working with students.

However there would be a few 'right wing evangelical' schools where parents send their kids to be taught these views; maybe it would be worth looking more closely at suicide statistics in these schools?

Suggesting that young people commit suicide because they do not receive appropriate support for their sexual behaviour and attitudes is a baseless argument.

How do we know why anyone commits suicide? Suicide is not a rational act. It does not follow a cause and effect scenario. The instinct to live is the most basic instinct we have and we will do extraordinary things to make sure we stay alive. Everyone wants to live and no one wants to die. It is not a logical thing to do to commit suicide. If it is totally irrational then why do people look for reasons unless they are trying to project their own agenda on to the situation?

Someone who suggests that a young person commits suicide because they received no support for their homosexual lifestyle is trying to make society feel guilty where no guilt is appropriate. It is a very manipulative thing to do and it takes advantage of a very sad event to selfishly suggest that the two things are linked. Unless you have absolute proof of that connection then you expose your own desperation in trying to change society’s attitudes. If society needs to change its attitudes to homosexuality then it should do so because it is reasonable to do so. It should respond to good arguments as to why homosexuality is appropriate. Trying to emotionally manipulate society into changing is a sign that the author is not secure in his arguments. We should not indulge his dramatics and only listen to him when he is prepared to present logical arguments.

Let's be evidence-based and blunt: religiosity is strongly correlated with immorality and religious supremacy which in turn are used to prop up cultural, ethnic and racial supremacy. Religion is about taking on prescribed morality in neat comfortable recipes and finger-pointing exercises, rather than learning from evidence to discern event by event what is the best thing to do.

It might seem nice that Roses1 has reconciled his Christianity with his science but it remains that his god did order us GLBT to be put to death for thousands of years, ordered children from other tribes to be raped and taken as captive brides and even his son the christ who was at the right of his god at 'creation' though mental illness was the result of infection with evil spirits. And Roses1's 'christ' proved this was so by casting the devils into a herd of pigs that then suicided by drowning. Bet he wishes he could have such concrete evidence for his research as that.

It is damning that people can suspend so much of their religion but still claim to believe and still claim that their beliefs are a better way of living for other people. The presence of GLBTI, our genetics and our biology are a great threat to this allusion, hence they are here like flies around road-kill.

' Religion is about taking on prescribed morality in neat comfortable recipes and finger-pointing exercises, rather than learning from evidence to discern event by event what is the best thing to do. '

Describes the gw religion perfectly Eric G. Oh that's right the science is settled.

I've also read (and observed) that the most healthy and safe environment for teenage homosexuals is among heterosexual peers and that they need to be kept away from predatory older homosexuals until they're in they are emotionally mature enough to handle the situations they find themselves in.
According to Professor R.O.Lopez the real reason so many homosexual teenagers and young men kill themselves is that they are being abused by much older homosexual men before they have developed intimate relationships with other boys their own age:
http://englishmanif.blogspot.com.au/2013/12/la-joie-de-vivre-16-unbearable.html
This documentary is also very interesting, I believe it's from the mid 1990's and unlike a lot of films exploring the issue of older homosexuals taking advantage of boys and young men the alleged perpetrators and the boys they were having sex with both go into detail about their motivations and the effects the relationships had upon them:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGAUWw6s6r4

@phanto, @divine_msn Do not insult us with grubby back-of-envelop stats that you use purely to be mean when you know there must be reliable statistics out there.

Do not be so mean as to claim low suicide levels means there are no problems - the stigma scars people for life, affects their sexual health and rates of STI like HIV, drug and alcohol use, their relationships and their ability in the workforce.

Please rebut the references used in this report
http://www.lgbthealth.org.au/sites/default/files/Biefing_Paper_FINAL_19_Aug_2-11.pdf
pg 3:
"• At least 36.2% of trans people and 24.4% of gay, lesbian and
bisexual people currently meet the criteria for experiencing a
major depressive episode, compared with 6.8% of the general
population.v This rate soars to 59.3% of trans women (male to
female) under 30 in a LaTrobe University study.vi"

"• LGBTI people have the highest rates of suicidality of any
population in Australia
• 20% of trans Australiansx and 15.7% of lesbian, gay and
bisexual Australiansxi report current suicidal ideation (thoughts)
• Up to 50% of trans people have attempted suicide at least once
in their lives.xii
• Same-sex attracted Australians have up to 14x higher rates of
suicide attempts than their heterosexual peers.xiii Rates are 6x
higher for same-sex attracted young people (20-42% cf. 7-13%)xiv
• The average age of a first suicide attempt is 16 years – often
before ‘coming out’xv"

"• The elevated risk of mental ill-health and suicidality among
LGBTI people is not due to sexuality, sex or gender identity in
and of themselves but rather due to discrimination and
exclusion as key determinants of health.xx This is sometimes
referred to as minority stress.xxi"

Do not insult young people who have yet to have sex with 'gay lifestlye' or indeed insult yourself.

EricG : Even if those figures are true it does not automatically follow that the depression is caused by negative attitudes towards homosexual people. All these people may well be victims of negative attitudes and behaviour but there is one other thing they all have in common and that is that they are homosexual.

Depression is most commonly caused by attitudes and behaviour which are not in our own best interest. When we are living someone else’s dream, or stuck in a relationship or job or place where we really do not want to be we are going to be depressed. We are not allowing our own nature to flourish or not acting according to what we really think and feel and this can have very detrimental effects upon our health and well-being. If we are constantly fighting our instincts and our own human nature then we are going to go downhill until we break out of that bind.

What homosexual people will never accept is that homosexual behaviour and lifestyle goes completely against human nature. They have driven their own natural instincts underground and fight desperately to keep them underground. They constantly have to justify their behaviour to themselves and desperately try to stop society from questioning their behaviour because they are not comfortable with it themselves and do not want to be reminded of this. The urgency to silence any questioning voices becomes more and more desperate until they become aggressive and resort to bullying and intimidation of anyone who dares to suggest that homosexual behaviour is not natural or logical.

EricG, this aggression and desperation comes to the surface in your posts. You are not a person who is at peace with his own attitudes and behaviour. It is a simple question of a lack of logic. Homosexual people are depressed – they are victims of bad attitudes about their homosexual behaviour therefore it must be these bad attitudes that cause their depression. Refusal to look for any other cause condemns a person to continual depression. It is indeed you who insults yourself.

Do we all understand that the only reason that homosexuality was de-listed from the diagnostic list of emotional disorders was political pressure from Gay rights campaigners?
Psychology and Psychiatry are not sciences and their diagnostic manuals are edited by a show of hands by a panel of "experts" not on the basis of scientific findings.
The same field of "experts" who based on non scientific ideas categorised homosexuality as sociopathic behavior in the 1950's now promote the opposite view based on non scientific ideas.
All we know for sure is that Psychologists and Psychiatrists, counsellors and clergy have no business speaking on this subject.

"@phanto, @divine_msn Do not insult us with grubby back-of-envelop stats that you use purely to be mean when you know there must be reliable statistics out there."

WTH Eric G? These figures were obtained from the Australian Bureau of Statistics. Go insult them. If you can find published data you consider more reliable - by all means quote the figures and source, as I did.

People suicide for many, often unfathomable, reasons. It's been going on since the dawn of man and will continue to do so.

If someone has issues regarding their sexuality chances are those originated from within their family or 'culture' - not society as a whole. "God" knows there are enough openly homosexual role models out there to aspire to.

As for other issues you mention: STIs FFS! Does it escape your intellect that Safe Sex messages have been directed strongly at the gay male community since HIV/AIDS became rampant in the mid 1980s? Is being homosexual in some way causing stupidity? Because STUPIDITY is all I can attribute to taking life threatening risks. You can't catch an STI just because you are gay! You catch STIs through careless personal behaviour and poor sexual hygiene - just like everybody else.

Ability in the workforce? So being homosexual restricts your career choices or capability does it? Maybe if you are one of those who wants to be so "individual" as to be unattractive to potential employers - in the same way of Goths, Emos, super tattooed & pierced, wildly dressed and coiffured etc. Otherwise - please explain?

Eric G - you make homosexuality look very bad indeed. I think perhaps society should rethink its tolerance for same sex attraction.

Seriously - go be silly somewhere else

@divine_msn One of my references comes from the ABS, the difference being yours was full of navel gazing estimates of your own concoction and mine was what ABS actually got from their data on GLBTI. It isn't enough that you be homophobic but you must be deceitful as well with stats.

As for your 'compassion' over GLBTI suicide, clearly too many of us are wimping out and not taking enough people with us.

Not a day goes by with out me reading or hearing that I am not worthy to have been born, that I should not have survived suicidal ideation that swallowed up my teenage years and that I am stupid to be effected by you mean people who denigrate me. You speak for yourself about the 'irrationality of suicide' but if went through with it today it would be quite rational and I would make sure I leave behind this page and point to your comments. I would make double sure I would not be another to fall through the cracks to not be attributed to the cold hearted meanness shown toward diversity of biology.

You creeps want chaplains because you like who they help and who they cannot help. You make Rolf Harris seem like a good guy because what he did was much more limited and individualistic. You guys are a cheers squad for religious right.

EricG, I'm sorry for the rubbish you have had to read above.
Just know that not all posters to this site have such anti-gay, narrow-minded opinions.

I share your suspicions re the chaplains in schools, and I agree that gay students would not feel comfortable seeking out their 'counsel'.

This Government, led by an ex student priest , wants to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to support only religious chaplains in secular schools, while claiming not to have enough money to give pensioners even a basic wage to live on.

Eric,When Feminists talk about equality of the sexes I often reply "Why would you set your sights so low?"
Biology? Show me the scientific explanation for your state of mind, since when has homosexual behaviour been anything but an aspect of masculinity?.
I can inform you that it sucks to be a straight, White, middle aged man about 99% of the time too under the present zeitgeist but we don't go looking for excuses or constantly try to blame other people for our problems.
Surprise, surprise, society sees men as obsolete and they try to grind us down every minute of every day, the only difference is that they pretend to like people like you to set up these phoney conflicts between men to keep us busy.
The LGBTIQ activists don't care about you, the government doesn't care about you, the church and the state don't care about you and a good number of your fellow men despise their own gender...welcome to manhood in 2014.

Divine man, what rubbish you write, Eric G & Suseonline very understanding and compassionate writers.
Divine man what makes you think that any student is going to tell a school chaplain of any religion that he or she is gay, when it is preached by them that homosexuality is a sin, if he had HIV- Aids that would be multiplied a thousand times for disclosure to him, let alone telling anyone except his treating Doctor
"Divine" people have no compassion except for themselves

lets see, false statistics are quoted, chaplains demonised and then the attackers claim the victim status because people point out home truths.

"@divine_msn One of my references comes from the ABS, the difference being yours was full of navel gazing estimates of your own concoction and mine was what ABS actually got from their data on GLBTI. It isn't enough that you be homophobic but you must be deceitful as well with stats."

Eric G - below is the link to the area from which my information came:
http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/by%20Subject/3303.0~2012~Main%20Features~Age~10010

Also I never mentioned a skerrick of compassion for 'gay suicide'. I said in an earlier post that the death of any young person by suicide was tragic. Not my habit to differentiate people according to who they wish to have sex with.

Suseonline - Always thought you were a intelligent logical poster - even when I didn't agree with you. What's with your comments? Eric is blaming sexual orientation for everything from STI occurrence to career failure - rather than individual behaviour and attitude. But that's not 'rubbish'?

I must only know more mature intelligent 'gays' who get on with life, work, relationships and in most cases don't wear their sexuality like a badge of honour or a crown of thorns.

You would have to be aware that Chaplains refer any young person whose problems are deep seated to more specialised services. They are a first contact and their job is to be a patient non-judgemental listener first and foremost. Religion is deemed to be a topic of discussion only if the person seeking solace raises it from what I've been told.

Eric - bless his little cotton socks - comes across as a professional dramatist. "Not a day goes by with out me reading or hearing that I am not worthy to have been born ..."

Try as I might I can't find much literature in the everyday world denigrating homosexuals and wishing death and damnation upon them. It's waaaay politically incorrect.

Maybe he needs to move out of that abusive home enviroment or stop searching the www on a daily basis looking for Gay Hate sites?

Suzeonline said -" EricG, I'm sorry for the rubbish you have had to read above.
Just know that not all posters to this site have such anti-gay, narrow-minded opinions"

That is a very patronising attitude to have towards Eric - I am sure he is capable of choosing what he reads or does not read - he doesn't have to read anything.

It is also very arrogant of you to suggest that opinions you do not agree with should be classed as rubbish and narrow minded. Are your opinions also rubbish and narrow minded?

Is everyone who disagrees with anything a homosexual person says automatically anti-gay(whatever that means)?

Phanto, have another critical look at your posts above and tell me you aren't denigrating the feelings of gay people in general.
My opinion is that you have no real understanding of homosexuality at all.

@Jay of Melbourne: "since when has homosexual behaviour been anything but an aspect of masculinity?. Where is femininity and females? You know lesbians, bisexual females, transwomen (MTF)and intersex women?
Homosexuality falls on the axis of sexuality not gender and sexuality is based on gender not sex. So when a transwomen who is married transitions from male to female, the couple must divorce by law because they now have a lesbian relationship and we couldn't have them mess up the status quo could we? If you don't get the meaning of GLBTI then stop interfering with our lives.

So wrapped up in your own fat white man's privilege you forget that you are arguing only about a small portion of sex, gender and sexuality diverse people and therefor your arguments don't stick to everyone or to the issues we are attempting to discuss. I will spell it out slowly: if you are arguing GLBTI is about bad behaviour you had best have a complete collection of behaviours that cover all GLBTI including celibacy (15-25%). And here is a tip: you will find that the largest group in society that practices these behaviours is straights and their closeted companions, eg sodomy (about 17% of straight men and then there are the unrequited unable to find a victim). Tip No 2: very few lesbians practise sodomy.

Eric, don't be angry at me because you've been lied to,there's no such thing as a sexual orientation, it doesn't exist so what you've been taught to regard as sexuality is actually non sexual behaviour.
Sexual intercourse only occurs when a man and woman intend to produce a child, if they use contraception it's not sexual intercourse, homosexual couples are physically incapable of sexual intercourse so their relationships are not sexual in any sense of the word.
You just can't handle my posts because though I have no issue with Gays or homosexuality and I hold eccentrics and outsiders in high esteem I refuse to accept any information proffered by Communists or Quacks.

Psychiatry and Psychology are arts and their practitioners artists, they are not scientists, as an artist myself I can appreciate that distinction and interpret their findings accordingly.

Communism is based on a lie, all of the information coming from the LGBTIQ advocates is worthless because it's a pack of lies, no person versed in ethics or posessed of morality sees it in any other light.

It may be that down the track behaviour will be linked to genetics but that field is in it's infancy, any solid findings one way or another are probably decades away so we're stuck with artists and communists in the immediate future.

Eric G.
You are wasting your time. Every time someone on The forum suggests that same-sex-oriented people get a raw deal, the trolls come out and dump their homophobic bilge; twisting arguments, lying and sneering. It is a fact, whether they like it or not, that far too many youth suicides are by gay boys - not because they’re gay, but because of the vile homophobia that surrounds them at home, at school, at sport.
As for the nonsense spewed about older gay men predators being the cause of suicides, this is yet another bit of filthy propaganda. Statistically, fewer adult gays are child sexual predators than heterosexual men.
Parents of gay youth suicides usually demand that the sexual orientation of their child is suppressed, from shame - skewing statistics. Sickening, but true.
Well written, Brian, and well argued Eric and Suzeonline.
The predictable responses of all the gay bashers at least prove that Brian’s argument is correct.