Oh the problems of insurgencies.

Advancing ISIS rebels, in civilian one-toners and civilian dress unfortunately don't provide a target rich environment.

High explosive cruise missiles are best for conventional military strongpoints but for ISIS cruise missile delivered cluster bombs might be most appropriate.

Drones with Hellfires (Reapers, Predators) provide hope but this may constitute insufficient bombing volume for satisfactory results.

Airstrikes from the carrier USS Bush provide good video footage but suffer inaccuracies in differentiating between ISIS and innocents.

This is the main lesson we should be taking from the ISIS crisis.

"An estimated 150 Australians have left their homes down under to take up arms with extremist groups in the Middle East"
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/150-australians-hundreds-western-fighters-middle-east-official/story?id=24215115

(and little doubt a much larger number are aiding and abetting from inside Oz)

It's something we all need to keep in mind next time any apologist tells us about poor people fleeing to Oz due to their love of liberal democratic values.

"Vanity of vanities, all is vanity, and there is nothing new under the sun."
Isaiah

There is no reason why the state of Iraq should be preserved. It was carved out of the old Ottoman empire after WWI by the British to suit their interests at the time. It has been an instrument of oppression ever since. There is no reason its borders or authority should be considered sacrosanct. The meddling western allies including Australia have over the last 24 years killed countless innocent and guilty Iraqis, as well as their own troops, to achieve nothing at great expense. If people don't want to be members of an American puppet state why should they be forced? Why should more blood and treasure be wasted on this stupid exercise, other than to serve power for power's sake?

People notice ISIS's violence: the ISIS shooting of Iraqi police and armed forces. But imagine if ISIS had instead peaceably said to the government of Iraq "We don't want to be members of your state, and we request you exempt us from being forced to pay for it or forced to obey". Would Iraq have said "Oh sure, that's fine. You're at no risk of violence or intimidation from us."?

Of course not! What do you think the job of those armed forces *is*? ISIS would have had NO CHANCE of achieving such a result except by opposing force to the state commensurate with the enormous institutionalised violence being used to impose it.

And how it is any less terrorism for the western countries to forcibly impose their opinions on gender politics by bombing people, is any less terrorism than when ISIS or Boko Haram do it is beyond me.

No, let the Muslim world settle the differences between Sunni and Shia BEFORE any more western intervention, and those who tried to bomb them into democracy should be prosecuted for war crimes, starting with all the heads of government who participated.

SO,, you who think war is a god idea
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/soyouwantawar.php

GOVT HIT LIST
http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/SMALL_shitlist.jpg

Thanks SPQR

For the link http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/150-australians-hundreds-western-fighters-middle-east-official/story?id=24215115

Its primarily up to the men returning to Australia from Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan who should realise Australians want to remain living in peace. No-one would want Australia to turn into a war-zone like Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan.
---

Jardine K. Jardine

Its not all the West's fault.

Partitioning or winding the clock back is usually no solution. Most Middle Eastern countries (Lebanon, Syria...) could be partitioned not only on Sunni, Shiite and Kurdish lines (as may be happening in Iraq) but into about 16 smaller sub-groups.

Each of these resulting micro-states could be swallowed up by the larger states - Iran, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Israel etc of the region. This is undesirable.

Un-elected extremist groups like ISIS are probably unpopular overall even in Sunni areas. People in those areas would just be too scared to speak out. Extreme Shiite militia being the same problem.

No easy solutions.

we are shocked to learn the recent chaos in iraq now it is the duty of muslims nations to come forward and find a lasting solutions to countries affected by violence destabilizing and civil wars.

My question to OIC the islamic organisation ? why they keep silent when our own brothers are fighting each other they should visit and hold discussion with both the government and opposition to end this kind of violence which benefits others.

there is no religious leader of muslim nations we are without leader who can tackle and deal with such chaos.

i know and understand that more anger and vengeance has no place in islam what we gain with this kind of violence and it is not allowed to kill our own muslims brothers for worldly desires.

a group of muslims clerics from different islamic countries should visit the affected countries and start dialogue before the scale of violence would take more deaths and destructions.

itz our matter of ummah we do not need other nations to interfere we can tackle and solve the problems by our own means and wisdoms.

so i appeal to the reknowned muslims scholars, poiticians, intellectuals to start thinking to draw a plan and visit to the countires to bring the governments and warring public to come to negotiations table in order to find out solutions and resolve the problems peacefully and if these intellectuals and scholars disinterest or show no anxiety about the current situation then there will too late that muslims will fight like animals kills each other for nothing

sayeed

From Sayeed's post above --this is noreworthy:

<<it is not allowed to kill OUR OWN muslims brothers for worldly desires>> (emphasis added)

SAYeed./quote..<<..so i appeal to the reknowned..>>

if they are known/these must be encouraged\not appealed to
that i feel is the root of the prophet/these elders of the faith..in the messengers advice,,[may peace be upon them all]..

from the outside...it looks/like we have a dispute\between those thinking the messenger to be a franchise/business opportunity..or a power grab..it seems..that some think..'family secrets'..gives exclusive right to the messengers mess-age.

fixing this is not limited..to.<<muslims..>>
NOR TO/the..scholars,..NOR/poiticians,[these have outside[or should we say..inner/adgendas..so..i say..there is no doctrinal/nor\political fix to any of this

how i see it/is what is this 'state'..that allows big states/to live in perpetual fight and flight[its time that..SPECIFIC_areas ..WERE DECLARED CONFICT FREE..WHERE WE CAN BEGIN HEALING..i suggest these peace zones..are the answer

<<>>were..intellectuals \dreamers/visionary minds..begin/to start thinking \//elivATE..the thinking..and act localy[have complete disarmed zones[zones that have no plunder.to fight over/where all belonGSto the good of god/and people live off their earned collective credit

in short as one does not ask family for payment
so it must be regarding the protection/preservation..of our many messengers/[may peace be upon them all]

we collectivly..ask..to draw a finance plan/that takes away temptation to hoard/looted\booty[i will remind you that the true mesengeRS Chose themselves/by spreading their message

think how would the peace maker arrive/but by saying god has given me
the ways and the means/to BRING..peace to all/..SIImpy..<<>.plan and visit..[in pEACE]..to the countires to bring the proper governANCE..AND MEANS OF PAYMENT../to\the decendants of the mEssangers..[ALL].

<<>>and..LETS/BRING/THE\waR AMMUSEMENTS..to a haPPY END/for all/by gods way[mercy-grace]

we seek mEARLY..<<..to come..WITH OUR BROTHers/and sisters..<<to by negotiations en-able..>>..to serve the peace/to end the pieces/to forgivE AS MARYS SON does..<<..,in order to find out solutions and resolve the problems peacefully>>,,equiably and locally.

<<>.and if these intellectuals..and scholars..RETAIN/their...disinterest..or show no anxiety about the WORSENING..of this current situation..then their will/HAS willed/too late

please see clearlY..we have been divided too/long
that god has much greater glories/yet to reveal\to open hearts..<<..that muslims \/christians/jews/atheists..<<.will fight like animals..[RECALLING THE BEAST..<<..kills each other..for nothing\MORE THAN..FRIGHT/fears feeDS/the urge to fight.

once you lack the ability TO APPLY...peace/into\the humane-mind
the mindlessness unchains the LEAST..OF ALL MIND/THE beast

THANKS FOR saying..it..sayeed.
many/tWIGS..bound together..have the strength..of a log/but the flexibility..to Survive..by sharing THE burden/weight..

before the dawn..all looks..but shades of gREY.
BUT AS THE FEAR THAT BLINDS US REUNITES US..we can tell the bLACK/threat...from the red..threat.,,RED-flag eVENT...or..from the white threat...cryiNG POOR REAPS THE RICHES...[too small to PICK-ON].

IN THE ALTERNATE CULTURE$$../theY give in and sell their resource
THEY BUY PEAce..but bought peace..isnt really peace/its merely war in temporary ABEYANCE..but the next peace must last[thus the next one mUST BE FAIR

GIVE EACH A CREDIT CARD THAT ALLOWS all/THEIR SHARE
RICHES..demean the meNCHE...GATHER YOUR liVING-treasure
RESTORE THAT destroyed by war..

Christopher Bollyn: "Who is Behind the Chaos in Iraq?"
http://bollyn.com/#article_14740

So, after decades of disastrous policies that have utterly wrecked the nation of Iraq, why does the media still solicit advice about the crisis in Iraq from war hawks like Sen. John McCain, Sen. Lindsey Graham, and Douglas Feith?

The answer is quite simple: The big media outlets in the United States give time and space to war hawks like John McCain because he is a leading advocate of the Zionist war agenda. Like McCain, the big media outlets are also controlled by Zionists who support the war agenda. They are simply using people like McCain, Graham, and Feith to promote it.
http://www.newsforage.com/2014/06/petraeus-us-must-not-become-shia.html
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/lieofthecentury.php
The real question is what is the Zionist war agenda?

Israel to step up crackdown on Hamas, Palestinians
http://www.presstv.com/detail/2014/06/19/367710/israel-to-step-up-crackdown-on-hamas/

The Israeli regime seeks to step up its aggression against the Palestinians under the pretext of searching for illegal settlers allegedly missing in the occupied West Bank.

Israeli forces continue their crackdown on official figures of the Palestinian resistance movement Hamas in the occupied West Bank after the alleged disappearance of the Israeli teens last Thursday. However, they have apparently made no progress in their search operations so far.
http://rinf.com/alt-news/war-terrorism/devastating-truth-destroyed-iraq-order-save/
http://investmentwatchblog.com/estimates-for-iraq-war-in-the-trillions/

http://rinf.com/alt-news/war-terrorism/non-conventional-warfare-geopolitical-reshaping-ukraine/
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/06/propaganda-war-ukraine.html

. . . Hamas leaders Hassan Yousef, Wasfi Qabaha, Khaled Abu Arafeh and Mohammed Totah have been among those recently abducted by Israel.

Hi sayeed

I agree with your peaceful aspirations.

It is an opportunity for the religious-political OIC (Organisation of Islamic Cooperation) to promote unity and leadership. Things have never been worse for Muslims in the Middle East and through to Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Oil has provided some united economic purpose but religion and politics are needed to bring Islamic people together.

Pete

sayeed
You look as though you have never read any of the history of Islam.

In case you haven't noticed, it's Muslim clerics and politics that are, and always have been, the cause of the violence. What you are suggesting as the solution, is the original problem.

What's needed is something *new* - like not using force to get what you want. That rules out politics as a solution.

But notice that everyone in the Middle East seems united in their belief that the solution is for "nations" to fine "solutions" [translation: politicians to forcibly impose conformity]. It's that belief that's causing the endless problem of violence.

The missing concept is freedom: it's *not* using the State to try to decide on behalf of everyone else.

This Sunni ISIS group were the same people the USA were financing against the Assad Govt in Syria. Now The present Maliki Govt in Iraq has developed friendly relations with both Iran and Russia. Oil interests in Iraq are Exxon, Chevron, BP, Shell, ENI, Luke Oil, Russia's Gasprom and Chinese Interests. It looks like an international carve up of Iraqi oil while the people get poverty and war.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/isis-domestic-terror-threat-created-by-cia-and-u-s-military/5387874 Kurt Nimmo says that this Sunni group are being financed by the CIA and US Military. It seems the Maliki Govt has got too friendly with Russia and Iran which could threaten the interests of

continued....the interests of EXXON, Chevron, BP and Shell. So will the USA again send troops into Iraq under the guise of aiding the Maliki Govt but in reality establish this extreme Sunni ISIS group?

In all reality I don't think the USA knows what it is doing since everything they do in Iraq is an absolute disaster.

Hi Jardine K. Jardine

When you talk of religion and clerics in the Middle East I assume your aware non-Muslims range anywhere from significant to powerful in the regions around:

Lebanon - Christians are a powerful religious and political force. Even Australia's "popular" Eddie Obeid is from Northern Lebanon from the Lebanese Maronite Catholic ethnic group

Syria - Christian are significant religious and political force who often combine with some Islamic forces

See ethnic-religious map illustrating the complexity http://i.imgur.com/LYLj8.jpg

Israel - Jewish clerics are of course powerful. Israel's independence is of course guaranteed by Christian states like the US.

Even though democracy is desirable "States" do order people around - particularly when it comes to making War or fighting against rebels.

Hi Arjay

Of course ISIS is not primarily the creation of "white" people from the West and Russia.

Of course Saudi Arabia and the smaller Gulf States have been sending large funds to Sunni insurgents that fight Shiites and "frontline States" that fight Israel for decades.

Lately the Saudi and Gulf State (Governments and individuals) have fairly openly been sending money and weapons to Sunni groups fighting the Assad Syrian Government.

Much of the Saudi money would have gone to ISIS for ISIS' operations in Syria and Iraq. Saudi money might also be going to ISIS as a deal to slow down ISIS descent towards the Iraq-Saudi border. Maybe ISIS will appear in Lebanon and Jordan next?

Plantagenet, big changes in global power have happened since Russia stopped the USA and Israel from attacking Syria and Iran.

Russia and China have many mutual economic developments happening including a BRICS bank with money backed by gold. I'm hearing that Saudi Arabia is already on board and Germany that has 3000 businesses dealing with Russia are also very keen to dump the EURO and join the BRICS nations.

The Rothschild, JP Morgan and Rockefellers debt money creation system is being left in the wake of the BRICS Nations real wealth development system. Both Russia and China have Govt banks that can create new money for infrastructure and Govt services debt free.

All Western money is created as debt by private banks, thus these banks own the very essence of our toil and creativity.

Russia and China look like being our new global masters but I fear they will be no better than our present corporate fascists; ie the Rothschild etc.

Unless all nations on this planet can create their own money without the parasitic global central banks, then our humanity is doomed to economic slavery.

Hi Arjay

Other than your first sentence how do your banking theories apply to the complex lives of people in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Turkey, Israel, Iran and the Saudis etc?

Are banking theories sufficient to explain everything?

Is money the only human emotion?

Is religion part of it?

sayeed,
all they need to do is to realise that religion is merely a control mechanism exploiting superstition & all will get better in literally minutes.
Same gous for all religions.

Julie Bishop has solved part of the problem, potential jihadists from Australia are having their passports cancelled thus keeping them in Australia where they can't do any harm because John Howard's gun laws will stop them from getting arms and O'Farrell's Ammunition Bill will stop them getting ammunition, at least in NSW.

Bishop had no answer as to how one of those now overseas and fighting for The Cause got out of the country on his brother's passport.

got out of the country on his brother's passport.
is Mise,
If this government puts the same size cojones on display with this situation as it has with the boats then this brother won't be coming back to Australia at all with or witout his sibling's passport.
Anyone with an Australian passport going to these places to fight should be denied returning here. If they really want to help their people then they should say so as they prepare to leave & they should give up their australian citizenship. I certainly have no wish to be dragged into some idiotic conflict just because we let them have dual citizenship. Australian Citizen-NO DUAL Citizenship !

Sometimes situations don't develop the way we might expect. We might assume that

if a, then b [and only b]

but often

if a, then c, d and/or e

or

if not a, then b

or even

if not a, then b, c, d, and/or e.

'We', the Yanks, perhaps even God herself, can't necessarily dictate how events will pan out. In the Middle East, there are, and always have been, so many independent players, and players with many options, that nobody there is anybody's puppet. Nor, it seems, is anybody strong enough to prevail over other players, except for a short time.

So the struggles see-saw between nationalism and religious fervour, between one major sect versus another (or others), between rural tribe and urban cosmopoles, and between ethnic groups around the edges of the Arab world. A bit like crabs in a bucket.

Surely one thing we have learnt over the past fifty or so years is that nobody can predict how anything will eventuate. The one certainty however seems to be that whatever party/group/faction gains temporary dominance is very unlikely to be any improvement on their [literal] predecessor, but very likely to stir up unexpected and bitter opposition from yet another quarter.

Are there political or military solutions to the current situation in Iraq ? Perhaps temporarily, but in the much longer term, an enormous amount of ideological dispute and argument and soul-searching might be essential for stability and progress, ultimately a debate between traditional conservativism, including religion, and secular, 'modern' values. If that is unlikely to happen soon, then don't expect stability soon.

Joe

Loudmouth,
You're right about your assessment of the situation there but, as the evidence clearly shows they can't be helped because they don't want help. They thrive on mayhem & misery & all we can do is to keep them as far away from Australia as possible because their one & only goal is to cause the same idiotic mayhem wherever they go. They can't help themselves, they simply can't handle peace. It's like asking a venomous snake to just give you a loving nibble.

Hi Joe

On "political or military solutions to the current situation" the The Age has published an article presenting eight military options Obama might be, is, considering or already doing http://www.theage.com.au/world/iraq-crisis-8-things-obama-can-do-20140618-zsczq.html . These options generally aren't mutually exclusive and include:

1. Protecting American [and other Western] personnel - already doing.

2. Full military intervention - Obama is not the type who would do that.

3. Strikes by US navy aircraft and cruise missiles - quite possible if ISIS is actually moving into Baghdad and ISIS presents a hittable target - especially conveys on the highways converging on Baghdad

4. Drone strikes - even more likely than 3.

5. Intelligence and logistical support of Iraq - US already doing this

6. Increased co-operation with Iran - US already doing this. A partial Iranian invasion possible with US forward controllers calling in airstrikes (points 3 and 4) in support of the Iranians.

7. Allow for the splintering of Iraq - less likely because this would make it more difficult for the West to control Iraq's oil and the "splinters" (including ISIS' Sunni region) would keep on fighting.

8. Do Nothing - no, the West, Iran, Syria and Saudi's are already projecting power, weapons, money into Iraq to influence the ISIS threat.

Is that the picture you have?

Regards

Pete

Plantagenet, there are few things more important than monetary sovereignty, because new money created by the private banking system represents your toil and creativity.

Mayer Armchel Rothschild," Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes the laws."

In other words Pete, they own you,me and our Politicians

I just read that the Government has cancelled some passports for these fighters to leave Australia. Why not say to them you leave, you're not returning ! Let them go just don't let them come back. I have always maintained if they want the people over there then they should go there, you can't help by staying here. Once your help has established some sort of stability then there is no reason anyway to come back here. Most of them wouldn't be here because they're all refugees aren't they ? Those who left to get away from the nonsense are the more switched on & they are of no threat to anyone. The building approval of mosques in Australia is a clear indication that the Left has been infiltradted by the dread.

individual,

Already in place that they will be arrested on return to Australia. however why not cancel their passports whilst overseas so that they can't get back?
Those that want to go should be allowed to leave and good riddance

<<the Government has cancelled some passports for these fighters to leave Australia. Why not say to them you leave, you're not returning>>

As much as I would like it to happen I seriously doubts about it being implemented long-term. Just watch now as all the celebrity-seeking humanrights lawyers and advocates start to squawk.

<<Those that want to go should be allowed to leave and good riddance>>
Agree --if they want to implement Sharia let them live under it. But I suspect the allure of easy OZ welfare & reserved housing commission places will outdraw Sharia.

Hi Pete,

Yes, certainly, in the short- to medium-term, all military options should be used to stop ISIS. But in the longer-term, say decades, there will have to be, and I am hopefully that there will be, a sustained ideological struggle.

As for jihadis returning to Australia, certainly - if they are dual citizens (how on Earth does that work ?) - their Australian citizenship should be cancelled (since they are aligned with an enemy force and fighting an Australian ally).

But if they are only Australian citizens, why shouldn't they be detained until it is made clear that they have committed no crime in Iraq or Syria ? If they have, then of course they should be extradited if Iraq or Syria can make a case against them in the usual way of extraditions.

ISIS is not just some rag-tag bunch of terrorists - it has raided banks and armories, and is now a very well-cashed-up, and heavily-armed force controlling territory in Syria and Iraq (but not in Saudi Arabia - go figure) almost as large as Iraq itself. This IS a big deal, and yes, unless ISIS is rolled back and eventually destroyed, it will remain a threat ultimately to Australia, and all countries in between. I fervently hope that one day, the 'Left' will come to dimly understand that.

Joe

Joe,

Here's how it works:

"Dual citizenship
It is possible to hold citizenship of two or more countries if the law of those countries allow. This is known as dual, or multiple, citizenship.

People can become dual citizens automatically, or after being granted citizenship of another country.

For example, an Australian citizen may automatically gain citizenship of another country through marriage, while a permanent resident of Australia may become a dual citizen by becoming an Australian citizen.

Prior to 4 April 2002, Australian citizens who became citizens of another country lost their Australian citizenship automatically."

http://www.citizenship.gov.au/current/dual_citizenship/

I've been a dual citizen since birth but have only held a Foreign passport since 1972; dual citizenship has a lot of advantages.

Hi Joe

Yes long term Iraqi solutions to Iraq's many problems are desirable. Like Afghanistan Iraq should not be a perpetual "junkie" resentful but reliant on massive foreign aid and military assistance.

What do mean by "extraditions"?:

- extradition of jihadis back to Australia? This would again make them resident responsibilities of Australia. That is exactly what our government doesn't want.

- extradition of Sunni jihadis to Syria or Iraq? They would be murdered by those governments without trial.

Hi Is Mise,

Well, yes, of course, but surely there are arrangements between governments which presuppose friendly relations between them ? Otherwise situations would arise in which a dual citizen can work for one government against the interests of the other with impunity. Surely that's not what was ever intended ?

Plantaganet,

I had in mind extradition from an Australian entry-point back to either their 'other' citizenship country, or a third country which is willing to take them. Or else, if Australia decided to revoke their Australian citizenship, they would become stateless. Perhaps if they then applied for entry as refugees, they could be transferred to Manus Island or Nauru and wait their turn.

Yes, 'extradition of Sunni jihadis to Syria or Iraq? They would be murdered by those governments without trial.'

That would be regrettable. But presumably, if a jihadi was a citizen of both Australia and either Iraq or Syria, and if dual-citizenship implies some mutual arrangement between the relevant governments, including the agreement to extradite their citizens back to face charges, then that may happen. Being a dual-citizen jihadi has its risks.

Joe

Joe

Where you say "they could be transferred to Manus Island or Nauru and wait their turn."

Australia doesn't want to give them a "turn".

I have a feeling jihadis on Manus Island or Nauru would be rather more violent than those camps are used to. They would also radicalise young males in the camp populations, fight any Shiites around, cause (what Tony Abbott calls) "mischief" and still be an Australian responsibility.

I don't think PNG or Nauru are ready or would accept such a permanent terror problem or have laws to handle them.

"I don't think PNG or Nauru are ready or would accept such a permanent terror problem or have laws to handle them."

Well the Salvation Army have turned out to be pretty good at macheteing refugees in the head, maybe they should send them?

Sort of tongue in cheek, Pete :)

I don't know how a former jihadi could prove that they HADN'T committed any offence against a government that they were fighting against, the country of which they were a citizen, as well as being an Australian citizen. Maybe the easiest alternative would be for them to apply to go to a third country, or become stateless.

But dual-citizenship is surely not some sort of refuge for jihadis - they can't commit offences in one country and then easily slip back into another, both of which they are citizens of ?

Joe

You got it all wrong Joe. The ABC now has 150 new martyrs to make heroes out of, just like Hicks and Habib. Heaven forbid that any of these sods get killed by a US drone strike, or the ABC will go into paroxysms of self righteous indignation railing against the human rights abuses by the USA against terrorists.

Our government has still not told us how many of these sods are on Disability Support Pensions.

The whole Middle East plus Nth Africa is a mess, basically brought on
by their own incompetence at managing themselves.
They are Arabs and are unable to solve their own problems after 1400
years of fighting.
They have diverted themselves by invading Nth Africa, Spain and South Eastern Europe at various times.
Frankly, I see them as a dangerous group who should be corralled into
the Arabian Peninsular and not let out.
Whether the problem is genetic or only religious does not matter they
are incompatible with the rest of the world.

We should encourage those that want to go and fight with ISIS to go
and hopefully if they get killed that is the end of that problem.
If they don't get killed they should stay there and help get the
country into a better state. When they see the mess they might
understand what they lost by leaving and try and copy what they lost.

The Arabs have destroyed Egypt by over population and they cannot feed themselves.
They knew their oil sales would slow and not produce enough money to import food.
Nevertheless, they continued on as though Allah would provide.
Well He didn't, but they still didn't get the message.
The so called Arab Spring was fiction generated by Western Media.
It was in reality a protest about the cost of food and fuel.
Three revolutions later they still do not understand what is the problem.

And we expect Westerners to get fair trials in an Arab country ?
Wake up !

There is a brilliant article in today's Australian by Professor ben Saul, exploring the difficulties and consequences of dual citizenship. It certainly made me re-think some issues.

Still re-thinking :)

Joe

Q, were Roman citizens allowed to have dual citizenship with a Persian passport as well & allowed to leave Rome & fight for the Persians whenever they wanted to?

Q, How many Australians have read the Koran, in its correct chronological order with matching references for each Surah (chapter & verse) from the relevant section of the Sirrah (biography of Mohammad) & Hadith (Sharia law) to contextualise it?

Q, will any Aussie know the Koran's true meaning until they do?

its urgent..please note
http://whatreallyhappened.com/podcasts/hourtitle1.m3u
by 9 tomorrow that niblet in confidencE
WILL BE GONE

[BEGINS..JUST AROUND THE 7 MIN-MARK
*
CHECK..AROUND 13 TH MINUTE

THEN..
CHECK MATE

NICE KNOWING YOU SISSI..its over
but for the dust..as THE WEST REALISES..YA GCANT FIGHT GOD..]and jesus mum],,

FANATIC/quotE..<<>..Q, were Roman citizens allowed to have dual citizenship>>

YES..tell me/why do you ask?

<<..with a Persian passport as well >>
spies have used any id the job needs
[whats ya point?]

<<..& allowed to leave Rome..&>>

well yes..a pass*port in every port
who is going to stop me?
..have infite ids letters of rognition and diplomatic immunisations
WHO THE FREEDOm fighter..[but he not doING TERRORISM]

<<...fight for the Persians..whenever they wanted to?>>

mates/we were invaded by feeebooter/policed for run
usa was defended by privateers [ever heard of the foreign legion[guns are for hire/all they want is the booty and a command/plan

our sas are guns for hire
mossad recognises no other auTHORITY.
try jailing the jews in ozzie who defended heir holy land[UNDERSTAND]
ALL AUSSIE EQUALLY SUBJECTED TO THE SAME RULES[WHAT DID GOVT DO clue..RE THE JEWS.

<>>Q,..How many Australians have read the Koran,>>

completly?
which translations
in arab;does a dutch version count[ill get baxck to ya]

..<<>. in its correct chronological..order with matching references ....for each Surah (chapter & verse) from the relevant section of the Sirrah..(biography of Mohammad) & Hadith (Sharia law) to contextualise it?>>

your point being?
[i have rad thee transions/enjoyed them all
i love reading all holy texts...[bar the talmud/IT STANDS ALONE./under everything[direct from hell]..that rings a bell*

<<..Q,will any Aussie know the Koran's true meaning until they do?>>

its a book/channeled frominfo from angels and jinn
its not the words in any holy texts..its their fruit..in us.

good fruit=those words/from good [god]

negative feeling..[that hurtfull of self or other]..from jinn
but angels may hold back/and jinns have contempt for humanity/thus jinn dont have reason to hold back..nor lie[you forget this is satans realm*

this realm exists only to determine if gods experiment/with freewill [satans-fall/worked,,[he hopes it does]..for so long god LONG was without peer..and HAS no equal,UNIque/dont begin to define our collective good/true..mnade flesh,,in word,

,yet the collective g=holy spirit
http://whatreallyhappened.com/podcasts/hourtitle1.m3u

Hi Joe Loudmouth

Such is the force of your arguments, I have been licking the tail between my legs (not).

The jihadi dual citizens (mainly Lebanese-Australians?) may be be born in Australia and have relatives in Australia. That presents difficult legal problems - not easily resolved by the Abbott Government's latest political pronouncements.

Putting that aside the suggestion that jihadis be accommodated at the Manus or Nauru camps presents an excellent opportunity to bring jihadis together so they can train further in martyrdom.

As the two main terrorist training camps in the region the funding for Manus and Nauru could be shifted to the Saudi Government thereby releaving we poor Aussie taxpayers of the upkeep.

These camps - the "Manus Hilton" and the "Nauru Midnight Express" could be real earners and also provide essential counter-insurgency training grounds for our brave Special Forces - between wars.

Hi LEGO

I too was disappointed in the ABC highlighting the ISIS recruiting video that featured an Aussie or two.

A couple of nights ago the ABC helpfully explained that the video had been taken down from Youtube by the authorities but the ABC then ran its own copy of the offending video.

Perhaps it was the ABC's own absent-minded effort at recruiting?

imacentristmoderate,

I am one of the few and have a beautiful copy of the Qur'an bound in green leather, courtesy of the Saudis.
Furthermore I have studied Islam at University level and am of the firm opinion that no follower of Muhammad should be allowed in this country, no true follower of the Prophet can believe in democracy and the separation of Church and State.

Desirable though it may be the reaction of the Government in cancelling passports so that wannabe jihadists cannot leave Australia may cause them to seek martyrdom within these shores, or at the least cause chaos at little risk to themselves.

Hi Is Mise

In "Desirable though it may be the reaction of the Government in cancelling passports so that wannabe jihadists cannot leave Australia may cause them to seek martyrdom within these shores, or at the least cause chaos at little risk to themselves." you bring up a real risk.

Cancelling passports may involve many legal problems for cancellers.

Yesterday Ben Saul, Professor of International Law, Sydney Uni, also a barrister, wrote an interesting criticism of passport cancellation powers at http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-23/saul-broad-passport-powers-raise-concerns/5544426 : Excerpts:

"...passports [can be] cancelled on national security grounds..."

[problems with that power include]

"First, the definition of national security is too broad, ill-defined, and over-inclusive, and gives the government too much discretion in cancelling passports...."

"Secondly, the standard of proof for cancelling a passport is arguably too low, being considerably less than the balance of probabilities..."

"Thirdly, too much information can be withheld from the person whose passport is cancelled, and the Independent Monitor's recommendations would aggravate this situation."

"Fourthly, a person could be left in a dangerous limbo if their passport is cancelled while they are overseas, and if the Australian government refuses or fails to issue timely travel documents to return to Australia...."

"This problem includes the case of dual nationals where a person's other country of nationality is not safe, and where their human rights may be at grave risk."

A whole can of worms. But overall becoming a would-be jihadi looks like a career choice (or calling) full of problems.

Is Mise, are you a member of Freedom & Heritage Society?

We promote Civil Society, Australian History, the Culture, History of Britain & Europe that once made Australia great.

We are organising an army of Baby Boomer retirees, retired teachers, lecturers, lawyers, etc, to repair the damage that has been inflicted on our once fair land.

Are you aware that Multi-Culti was invented by Trotskyites at the height of the cold war to white ant our Culture from within? Rome was an Empire with people from many different races or ethnic groups, but "when in Rome, do as the Romans do". Rome had mono culturalism with assimilation as its policy & so should we.

i agree with your assessment BTW, it is only a matter of time before we get more terrorism on our soil.

Osama Bin Laden was a good Muslim, following the true teachings of the prophet.

OUG, if you read the Koran in context, as i said, there is NO room for interpretation at all, Allah & the Prophet Mohammad's intention is clear.

One aspect of this we've not discussed is the fact that Turkey is a member of NATO, when (not if) Turkey is drawn into the war that would seem to oblige the other member states to come to their aid if asked, or perhaps the response would be automatic, I don't know.
Now if that happens then there are how many millions of Muslims living in Europe who will rise up against their host societies?
You could see whole European cities lost to Muslim insurgencies in days, perhaps mere hours, Brussels, Marseilles, Malmo, Oslo etc.
What would happen if small groups of jihadis simultaneously stormed churches, schools and synagogues in a European city or began shooting people on the streets at random? At first Europeans would drop what they were doing and run away but after a while they tougher elements, the gangs and neo fascists would re group, fight back and start killing Muslims in retaliation.
What then?

imacentristmoderate,

No, I'm not a member and not likely to join.

I've looked at the site but as there is no access without joining, then that's it.

@Jay Of Melbourne

Looks like you haven't been looking at Turkey's recent history.

Turkey keeps out of Shiite vs Sunni regional clashes. During the 2003 Western invasion of Iraq Turkey minimised involvement. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_Turkey#.C2.A0Iraq

Turkey carries out limited incursions into Iraq now and then to beat up the Kurds (PKK). Those incursions are probably arranged with the Baghdad Government and in consultation with most other states.

Turkey has also exercised a measured response to the Syrian Civil War which also borders Turkey.

centrist moderate/challange..:<<..OUG,if you read the Koran in context,..>>

please explain/this context\..what context,,[the times[the people..the messengers prior calling/his decendants version,,or his priests version[you got a saudi one..so thats the decendants of the messengers opinion of his words ;,,right?

if not please be more clear;..context shouldnt be that comn=plicated;if its really the be all;..=end all,,

<<as i said, there is NO room for interpretation at all,>>

thats plainly absurd[to begin with its translation;
and many of the cultural stuff..dont transcribe

<<..Allah & the Prophet Mohammad's intention is clear,,>>

THATS A VERY CURIOUS THING;..allahs intention..is cLEAR?
HOW SO..WHERE IS GODS HAND IN THIS[im assured the angel michael dontated much/directly to the messenger[may peace be upon them all]

you claim to have studdied/i see no proofs in your words
so what was 'gods'..intention
indeed what was mahomouds?
[peace be upon all gods mesSangers..]

THING IS sunni?..or what?
<<..According to Shia and some Sunni scholars, Ali ibn Abi Talib (d. 661CE) compiled a complete version of the Quran shortly after Muhammad's death...The order of this text differed from that gathered later during Uthman's era in that this version had been collected in chronological order.>>

[you have noted of course..that russia/has offerd full support to malarki/it loks like mossad..forcing yankies/to arm up the isis..[divide and conquer]..has failed/but\the media silence=deafening.

http://whatreallyhappened.com/podcasts/hourtitle1.m3u

anyhow..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran

<<..Muslims believe..that the Quran was verbally/revealed from God to Muhammad..*through the angel Gabriel..(Jibril),..gradually over a period of approximately 23 years,..beginning on 22 December/609 CE,[8]>>

<<..The Quran..describes itself..as a book of guidance...It sometimes offers detailed accounts/of specific historical events,..and it often emphasizes*..*the moral significance*..of an event over its narrative sequence>>

<<>.The Quran =.describes it*self*..as.."the discernment
or the criterion..between truth/LIGHT..and..falsehood"..(al-furq/"the mother book" (umm al-kit="the guide" =,,(huda),.."the wisdom"..hikmah),>>..

..<<"the remembrance"..(dhikr) and "the revelation" (tanz;..something sent down,..signifying the descent..of *an object*..from a higher place/to lower place)..>>

VIA THE ASTRAL REALM*..

<<>.Muhammad's first revelation,..according to the Quran,
was accompanied with a vision...The agent of revelation =..is mentioned..as /*the "one..mighty in power">>

<<..The first sura of the Quran..is repeated in daily prayers
and..*in ]..[as IN;PART-OF'..other..occasions...This sura, which consists of seven verses,..is the most often recited sura..of the Quran:

"All praise/belongs\to God,..[god=sun*]

thus/unto/the Lord of the Universe,[the/holy/LIGHT\sprite*LOKI]
the triune;..the Beneficent,..the Merciful..and Master of the Day of Judgment, ..[that/takes..50,000/years]..

lord/..it/is unto/You alone..that\We do give/true;..worship..
and..*from You..alone..we do seek guideance,..[IT CANT HURT/TO ASK;] .BUT..]lord[..guide us..to the right path,[ta0]..the path of those.. un*to whom..*you have heaped bounty..*[excellence/in\all relations].. including especially..;..those..who are neither subject..[to Your anger]..nor/THOSE..WHO..;..have gone astray.

<<..The Quran consists of 114 chapters of varying lengths, each known as a sura. Suras are classified as Meccan or Medinan, depending on whether the verses were revealed before or after the migration of Muhammad to the city of Medina. However, a sura classified as Medinan may contain Meccan verses in it and vice versa.>>

<<>.Sura titles are derived from a name or quality discussed in the text, or from the first letters or words of the surah. Suras are arranged roughly in order of decreasing size.>>

<<>.The sura arrangement is thus IS/NOT
not connected..to the sequence of revelation>>

AHHH MEN.,,
http://www.searchtruth.com/search.php?keyword=vain&translator=4&search=1
<<>.The word(s) "vain" appears 29 time(s) in 29 verse(s) in Quran in Muhammad Pickthal translation.
(1) Thus We have appointed you a middle nation, that ye may be witnesses against mankind, and that the messenger may be a witness against you. And We appointed the qiblah which ye formerly observed only that We might know him who followeth the messenger, from him who turneth on his heels.>>

<<..In truth it was a hard (test) save for those whom Allah guided. But it was not Allah's purpose that your faith should be in vain, for Allah is Full of Pity, Merciful toward mankind.

oh vanitY OF VANITIES

Plantagenet,
But they're not staying out of it, the Turkish government are in it up to their necks:
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2013/09/turkey-syria-islamic-opposition-role.html#
The Turks are backing the FSA and other forces who are not necessarily friendly to ISIS and some like Al Nusra who are their enemies. If Syria falls to ISIS then Turkey will have to act, either try to make peace with the revolutionaries or fight them because once the new "Caliphate" is in place it's armies will turn northwards and it's supporters in Turkey will rise against the government.

What I want to point out is that I don't think a western city could cope with even a minor Muslim uprising, the Beslan atrocity involved about 30 insurgents, the Moscow theatre siege about 40.
What happens if ten such attacks occur simultaneously in a major European city? That's only 400 radical militant Muslims and we know there are thousands of them in every European capital, could you imagine the Leftist Danish or Swedish governments trying to deal with something like that?
Look what one man did in Norway and how he humiliated the Oslo police and National Security Authority? Imagine five, or ten or one hundred Utoya massacres kicking off simultaneously? Can you say chaos kids?

The difference with Turkey is that they are not Arabs and would tend to
act more sensibly.
As far as European cities are concerned, maybe the politicians and the
lefties would then realise that they have been at war for many years.
They would have no alternative than to call out the army.
It could even activate NATO.

Certainly they would have to watch out for an invasion from the Middle East.
This is the reason why what is going on in Syria and Iraq is making
everyone nervous.
Even here we are concerned about those that might return.
All it will be for someone to draw a cartoon.

Bazz,It's already happening;
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/01/suspect-arrest-brussels-jewish-museum-shooting
At some point there's going to be a backlash, some White or Jewish group will fight back and can you imagine what will happen when a Mosque or an Islamic school is the target?

This is going to be big, very big, watch this space sort of thing. The stupidity of the Left worldwide is starting to bear fruit.

Hi Individual,

Yes, an ISIS takeover of Baghdad itself is not out of the question. All those young Shia recruits can ra-ra in the streets of Sadr City, but when they go off north into battle, they will be slaughtered in the tens of thousands, poor buggers. ISIS is very heavily- armed, it has a huge chunk of the entire Iraqi army's arsenal, courtesy of the Iraqi army abandoning Mosul and Tikrit etc. The Iraqi military has run out of missiles. Soon it will run out of planes and attack-helicopters. Then what ?

If I were the Yanks, I would be bribing Sunni tribes north and west of Baghdad like mad, and making deals with the ex-Baathists, and even with Assad in Syria. Sooner or later, if Iraq is to stay relatively in one piece, any central government would have to make some room for Sunnis, perhaps generously funding some form of semi-autonomy, perhaps even along the lines of Kurdish autonomy. [I didn't realise that there were many Shia Kurds - how minority would that be !? And Yazidis. And Turcomans. How unnecessarily complicated.]

And of course, nobody wants to think about what the Iranians would do, if ISIS took Baghdad. If they intervened, would the Saudis ?

Yes, this could get very big.

Joe

Yes Jay Of Melbourne and individual

The Caliphate is spreading. I have evidence that the Saracens are again liberating Córdoba and the Ottomans (from Turkey naturally) may retake Budapest.
--

Hello Joe - You Loudmouth you

I to worry that the Shiite blokes in Baghdad spend more time marching very badly instead of quietly and professionally training - they "protesteth too much".

The Kurds are a particularly wily foe - known to fight other Kurds in order to keep their Turkish, Sunni and Shiite enemies off balance.

The Saudis for their part buy many $Billions in weapons from the US, Europe and China, then leave the weapons in packing-boxes in warehouses. The Saudis employ Pakistani mercenaries to fight for them - not trusting the Saudi "military" (really a Princes' supporters club) to do it.

This is, after all, Middle East.

Thanks, Plantagenet,

Being of little brain and vision, I hadn't thought about the Pakistani Taliban :) But would they be stupid enough to attack Iran, the Shia Shaitanists ? What the hell, if it gets you into Paradise, I suppose. But, on that direct Pakistan front, they would have to get through the Baluchi insurgents, who, I'm sure, would be funded by the Iranians, Sunni or otherwise. So they would probably work through Afghanistan with Sheikh Omar.

Hey, this is better than any board game ! Dungeons and dragons, eat your heart out !

Not too many Western action-novelists have written about this rich picture for their block-buster best-seller scenarios. Maybe it's just too rich and complicated for them to get their heads around.

Sometimes I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Joe

If the west could line up some alternative oil supply we could just let
them get on with it and fight themselves to a standstill.

Trouble is, if Saudi Arabia got involved there would be no way we could
replace both their export and Iraq's output without rationing and a recession.

Someone on the TV was just going on about Islamaphobia.
Re that, if you do not express Islamaphobia then you do not know what is going on.

ISIS - a Successful Business Entity

The records of US military intelligence have put a whole corporate perspective on ISIS - upsetting previous assumptions that ISIS was mainly funded by Sunni countries.

A US article of 23 June 2014 reports: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2014/06/23/231223/records-show-how-iraqi-extremists.html

ISIS "sprang from a largely self-funded, corporation-style prototype whose resilience to counterterrorism operations was proven by the time Abu Bakr al Baghdadi assumed command in 2010.

[ISIS that] Baghdadi inherited had in place a sophisticated bureaucracy that was almost obsessive about record-keeping. [ISIS] middle-managers detailed, for example, the number of wives and children each fighter had, to gauge compensation rates upon death or capture, and listed expenditures in neat Excel spreadsheets that noted payments to an “assassination platoon” and “Al Mustafa Explosives Company.” Income from [ISIS] looting of Shiite Muslim-owned property was recorded as “spoils.”

By the time Baghdadi took charge, [ISIS] even had begun siphoning a share of Iraq’s oil wealth, opening gas stations in the north, smuggling oil and extorting money from industry contractors _ enterprises that Baghdadi would build on and replicate as he expanded operations across the border into Syria, ultimately breaking from his al Qaida roots and declaring himself emir of [ISIS]".

Neoconservatism is essentially a modern Jewish version of Machiavelli’s political strategy. What characterizes the neoconservative movement is therefore not as much Judaism as a religious tradition, but rather Judaism as a political project, i.e. Zionism, by Machiavellian means. Note that, in an article in the Jewish World Review on June 7th, 1999, the neoconservative Michael Ledeen defends the thesis that Machiavelli was a crypto-Jew, as were at the time thousands of families nominally converted to Catholicism under threat of expulsion of death. “Listen to his political philosophy, and you will hear the Jewish music”, wrote Ledeen, citing in particular Machiavelli’s contempt for the nonviolent ethics of Jesus and his admiration for the pragmatism of Moses, who was able to kill countless men in the interests of enforcing his new law.

Obviously, if Zionism is synonymous with patriotism in Israel, it cannot be an acceptable label in American politics, where it would mean loyalty to a foreign power. This is why the neoconservatives do not represent themselves as Zionists on the American scene. Yet they do not hide it all together either. Elliott Abrams, Deputy National Security Adviser in the administration of Bush’s son, wrote in his book Faith or Fear (1997): “Outside the land of Israel, there can be no doubt that Jews, faithful to the covenant between God and Abraham, are to stand apart from the nation in which they live. It is the very nature of being Jewish to be apart — except in Israel — from the rest of the population”. It is hard to come with a better definition of Zionism, the corollary of which is the apartheid practiced against non-Jewish peoples in Palestine, http://www.voltairenet.org/article178638.html http://www.m-hikari.com/mccartin-2.pdf

WOW! Wonders will never cease, a readable post from OUG (first of his posts, of any length, that I've read).

Yes, Is Mise, but it's a pity that it was irrelevant to the discussion here.

However, it does touch on the different philosophies across the Middle East - the Jewish people and the Israeli state focussing on an exclusionist identity, one which proclaims 'leave us alone', while ISIS and al-Qai'da focus on an 'inclusionary' vision, of conversion-by-sword (or AK-47), even of other Muslims, a vision that will have no end.

It's ironic that today is the centenary of the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand and his wife. In the next few weeks, we may witness the beginnings of a bloodbath across the Middle East (and beyond) which might parallel the losses of the First World War.

Joe

Hi One Under God

I to am very impressed with your use of correct paragraphing and only one link.

Cross cultural studies (historical and modern) are very important. The Jews are, of course, blamed for anything a writer can dream up, from Communism to Capitalism and now Machiavellianism. The contribution of Jewish people to Western politics, arts and sciences is out of all proportion to their numbers. This naturally causes resentment particularly from white-trash like Hitler but also Russians like Stalin and even Russia's current leadership.

I hope you keep up the paragraph, minimal links style One Under God.

Regards

Pete

Hi Joe Loudmouth

Re: "Jewish people and the Israeli state focussing on an exclusionist identity, one which proclaims 'leave us alone'"

"leave us alone"" might forget Israel's heavy reliance on ongoing Western political and military support. Financial support comes not only from the Jewish diaspora but from Governments, including the US Government to the tune of $Billions a year.

The German Government has provided massive subsidies to Israel through the the free and reduced price submarine program. Germany has delivered the best conventional submarines in the world to Israel for an average 50% discount for decades. Australia is looking very seriously at the German made HDW submarine series - including the HDW Dolphin submarine that Germany tailor makes for Israel.

This German subsidy policy is openly seen as Reparations for the Holocaust and for more recent German deals with Israel's enemies (which included Iraq). In so doing Germany accepts responsibility.

Regards

Pete

Hi Pete,

I was thinking in terms of the evangelical-exterminatory ideologies of ISIS and al-Qa'ida and Wahabism, indeed of Islam proper, versus a tradition of a self-contained group which wasn't particularly interested in converting anybody to its religion, in fact had in-built mechanisms to minimise that, such as in-marriage. I hadn't thought of Jews as offering outsiders the option of conversion or death; they had had enough of that option themselves over the centuries.

In that context, and somewhat off-topic, one would have thought that Germany did actually owe Israel, as the refuge of many Jewish people, something of a debt, submarines included.

Frankly, I found OUG last contribution faintly anti-Semitic and straying well off-topic, but I'm sure he didn't mean it that way.

Perhaps we can stick to topic - there's plenty of it available :)

For example, what might happen if and when ISIS slaughters the semi-trained Shia militias surging north from Baghdad ? Will the US eventually have to co-ordinate its responses with Iran and Assad ? And vice versa ?

And will Saudi Arabia stand idly by, pretending not to be supporting the terrorists ?

And when will news agencies, even The Australian, start to unambiguously call the terrorists terrorists ?

Joe

I WAS REFRESHING THE TOPIC/it was all cut from link
my normal style is well known to you all by now/i just wanted to introduce/israels role/in thIS[ISRAEL TRAINS =ISIS[THEY WANT IRAN CUT UP INTO 3/STATES]..WE ALL INTERFERED ENOUGH IN THIS/ITS TIME TO LET THEM SORT IT OUT.

UNMENTIONED IS THE PUTIN//delivery of planes/while usa still only sending an extra 300[making 700 back into iraq//so far/the isis has contrl of the oil refinery/and in the outskirts of baddad/

but bagdad is never going to fall/or be taken
leave them figure it out/the best the west can do is take away the murder machinery/it bought into the coflict[well usa and israel and the israel laKIES WITH EMPTY SACS.

IRAQ BSHOULD BE DISOLVED[BUT SO TOO ALL STATES GLOBALY
WE ARE TYPED BY THE LOCATION OF OUR BIRTH/regardless of where//there lies our fair share[a birth cetification is like a bond/proving we own all govt asset /privledge protection etc

i feel empower the restoration/say any aid must be bulding//rebuilding decentralising or industrialising

if you got a pipe line...pay the RENT..[TOTAL TYTH/TO EVERYONE ELSE/=MAX 10%..thats why states must go..we cant afford the leeches that took the cash and banked it

clearly usa dollar needs DEMONITISATION
ITS DEBT..PEOPLE TOOK A SHARE..IN DEBT.WAR DEBT
WHO THE REPATERATION?..damm caps

anyhow isis crisis..its a zion-yanki/kraut/brit plot/that went pop
BUT IT WAS DESIGNED TO//CAUSE WERE NOT ONLy morally corrupt/but fully\bankrupt

im sorry i dissapointed you folks
as rickey nelson said/if you cant please everyone//you have gotta please yourself...[we chose these interseting times/so relax..or help realise our collective-greatness

Hi Joe

As ISUS areas are unsafe for reporters there's not much of a clear picture to answer your questions.

I think Obama is following a useful strategy of minimising direct US involvement in the fighting. US boots on the reground would restart the war Bush style and soon involve a resumption of Shiite militia fighting US troops in addition to the Sunni militia+ISIS. Obama leaning on the Iraqi Shiite Government to make compromises with the Sunnis or sink is realistic.

Here is a pretty good article from The Economist which gets much of its info from UK Government sources: http://www.economist.com/news/middle-east-and-africa/21605945-rebels-extend-their-reach-across-iraq-nuri-al-maliki-being-urged

Note that it describes how Lebanon and Israel are becoming involved in ISIS issues.

Regards

Pete

FROM/AGENET LINK
http://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/original-size/images/print-edition/20140628_MAM927.png

AT LEAST THE DEATH TOLL IS COMMING DOWN

MORE links joho
http://www.infowars.com/first-look-prometheus-ii-paradise/

OUG,

So Israel is supporting ISIS ? Do you have the slightest shred of evidence, or is that just another assertion ?

Pete, Israel's very localised involvement was in response to a very localised incident, they claim. I would have thought that Israel would far rather come in on the side of Assad than the Islamists', of Iran rather than ISIS.

But now that you've raised the issue, it forces some attention to how the Palestinians might respond to the Iraq mess - will Hamas covertly, or even overtly, support ISIS by launching a barrage of rocket attacks on Israeli villages ? Will Abbas and al-Fatah and its derivatives opportunistically go along with Hamas ?

If it all was a less ghastly mess, I would be happy to say 'I wouldn't be dead for quids'. Just too depressing for that.

Joe

HERE YA GO JOE
http://whatreallyhappened.com/
IF ITS NOT THERE I HEARD IT/maybe here
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/podcast.php
in the second hour.
im doing a search here for you/but if its on page two im over it

oF COURSE OTHER SITES WILL SAY SPEAK OF ME/if ya going to put it out there

so here we go
http://wakeupfromyourslumber.com/news/israel-says-disintegration-iraq-may-lead-independent-kurdish-state
911 and israel..in 20 minutes
http://xrepublic.tv/node/9631
NO 6 MIN
http://www.rys2sense.com/anti-neocons/viewtopic.php?f=114&t=33236

http://rinf.com/alt-news/war-terrorism/first-iraq-war-also-sold-public-based-pack-lies/
http://investmentwatchblog.com/shocking-u-s-publicly-funding-both-sides-of-iraq-war/
http://whatreallyhappened.com/

TOXIC LIGHT-BULBS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0x3rbHFwQU
money trail
http://rinf.com/alt-news/sicence-technology/smart-teen-exposes-secret-political-money-trail-dont-want-see/
burning f-35.s
http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/277-75/24466-focus-f-35-burns-on-runway-during-testing

FALSE FLAGS
http://investmentwatchblog.com/central-bankers-propaganda-syria-is-playing-a-game-of-shadows/

NAW MIGHT BE ON PAGE TWO
ANYHOW..im over it
http://whatreallyhappened.com/node?page=1

yes fuckusheila was a core/meltdown[3 cores actually]
http://www.intellihub.com/years-denial-mainstream-media-now-admits-fukushima-core-meltdowns-actually-happened/
fed-up
http://investmentwatchblog.com/federal-regulator-details-crazy-risk-taking-by-banks-blames-fed/
fed-res=century
tea/parity suicide?
http://www.politico.com/story/2014/06/mark-mayfield-dies-108388.html
HE might have got it from davi ike
http://xrepublic.tv/node/9627

swat teams shoker[500 calls per day]
http://rinf.com/alt-news/business-news/swat-teams-claim-corporate-exemption-public-scrutiny/
values measures
http://rinf.com/alt-news/money/value-priceless-things/
wheres/the wealth?
http://investmentwatchblog.com/where-is-the-wealth-in-the-us/
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-06-27/100-year-flashback-even-father-fed-feared-fiat-money

9percent/all deaths booze related
http://www.orrazz.com/2014/06/among-20-to-64-year-olds-98-of-all.html

ozz..coal miner 15 billion earning/no tax
http://www.orrazz.com/2014/06/australias-largest-coalminer-glencore.html

youwill recall usa fueled the war[and/on behalf of $ecular-zioni$t$]
http://rt.com/op-edge/168836-syrian-war-usa-finance/
liebermanwhine
http://www.jpost.com/National-News/Hundreds-of-Israeli-Arabs-burn-tires-demonstrate-near-Umm-el-Fahm-360825

ISrael rewrites natzi story
http://www.roitov.com/articles/ww1.htm

MILITARY INDUSTRIAL MERCANTILISM.KILLING US
http://rinf.com/alt-news/war-terrorism/militarism-continues-humankind-doomed/

AGENDA/21
http://www.activistpost.com/2014/06/new-study-promotes-agenda-21-style-land.html

COVERT OPS COVERS
http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?read=311117

your worst fears get ya every time
http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/jun/27/scams-scareware-threats-online-hackers

THE INSTINCT TO KILL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aq3-g-RJZ1k

times 22
http://idrivewarships.wordpress.com/2014/06/26/22-nations-ready-for-the-worlds-largest-maritime-exercise/

THE PEACE TERM
http://news.antiwar.com/2014/06/26/iraqs-shiite-mps-preparing-to-replace-maliki/
KENSIANend game
http://investmentwatchblog.com/the-keynesian-end-game-is-near-no-escape-velocity-this-year-either/
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2014/06/27/todays-zio-toon-of-the-day/

POLLARD BOLLARD/NO TREASON/THIS SEASON
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2014/06/27/eight-reasons-why-pollard-should-never-be-released/

MOSSAD BACK-DOOR
http://www.blacklistednews.com/Microsoft%2C_Apple%E2%80%99s_Cell_Phone_%E2%80%98Kill_Switch%E2%80%99_Could_Be_Hacked_by_Anyone/36234/0/38/38/Y/M.html

typical
http://www.newsforage.com/2014/06/detroits-high-end-golf-club-red-wings.html?utm_source=BP_recent
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.601631

mindless media par*rot

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/26/obama-seeking-500m-training-moderate-syrian-rebels

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-06-27/america-deluded-us-slams-angry-iraq-pm-will-buy-russian-jets-instead-fight-against-i
prod the pandamonium
http://xrepublic.tv/node/9622
mighty detroit.cuts water to one third its people
http://www.naturalnews.com/045756_Detroit_water_bills_third-world_country.html

israel next
http://stratrisks.com/geostrat/20056
http://rinf.com/alt-news/uk-news/one-simple-action-renders-anti-homeless-spikes-completely-useless/
http://rinf.com/alt-news/war-terrorism/armed-us-drones-flying-iraq/
http://www.newsmaxworld.com/GlobalTalk/Iraq-Syria-US-Kerry/2014/06/26/id/579394/
war propaganda crumbles
http://rudaw.net/english/kurdistan/260620143

This is a brilliant move by Putin. If the Sunnis take Baghdad, the US loses control over what currency Iraq's oil is sold for. If Maliki prevails with Russian help, Iraq will wind up friendly to Russia instead of the US when this is all over and the US still loses control over what currency Iraq's oil is sold for.

Checkmate!
http://rt.com/news/168744-russia-jets-iraq-maliki/
http://investmentwatchblog.com/urgent-isis-taking-over-iraqs-air-force-and-base/

http://rinf.com/alt-news/politics/syrian-election-isis-iraq/
http://investmentwatchblog.com/john-kerry-and-obama-talk-diplomacy-about-isis/

http://investmentwatchblog.com/urgent-isis-taking-over-iraqs-air-force-and-base/

http://thetruthshallsetyoufree.net/2014/06/27/israels-ethnic-cleansing-real-face-terror/

http://thetruthshallsetyoufree.net/2014/06/27/israel-steps-campaign-bad-nuclear-iran-deal/

SHALOM
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2014/06/27/ramadan-kareem-3/

fruit/l00p\OOPs
http://investmentwatchblog.com/israel-israeli-military-mobilizes-around-gaza-strip-for-possible-all-out-offensive-jul-04-2014/

but weight
http://12160.info/xn/detail/2649739:Video:1481363?xg_source=activity

PLUS/PS;......US/NEEDS/APPEAR/‘profoundly troubled’
by brutal beating of Palestine teen/who turned out to be American.

After a massive social media campaign exploded in cyber space decrying the actions and hypocrisy of Israeli authorities.
http://rinf.com/alt-news/breaking-news/us-profoundly-troubled-brutal-beating-palestine-teen-turned-american/

GOD/BLES THE Survelance/state
nowhere to hide/campaigns aside
http://www.intifada-palestine.com/2014/07/video-shows-faces-suspected-killers-palestinian-teen/

http://rt.com/usa/170692-us-palestinian-israel-brutal-beating/
The US has condemned the beating and detention of a 15-year-old Palestinian-American by Israeli police after a massive social media campaign exploded in cyber space They can murder our sailors and Marines.They can run over American women with bulldozers. They can kill over 3,000 Americans on 911 and our government,our President,Congress and military do nothing but suckup to these crooks!

The US has condemned the beating and detention of a 15-year-old Palestinian-American by Israeli police after a massive social media campaign exploded in cyber space decrying the actions and hypocrisy of Israeli authorities.

“We can confirm that Tarek Khdeir, an American citizen, is being held by Israeli authorities in Jerusalem. [

decrying the actions and hypocrisy of Israeli authorities.