OK, Dr Bob, will we hear from you in this debate. Probably not.

Let me say firstly, I'm on middle ground here.

One thing that I have noticed in these Racist debates. If anyone puts forward any sort of argument for free speech they are immediately deemed a racist. This doesn't move the discussion forward. It immediately distorts the debate into a, "I can say anything I like but you can't," by the anti free speech side. So much for an even discussion.

Some people have a propensity to be offended by anything & everything because that's the way they are. Some people are always looking for things to be offended by, because they are permanent "Victims'." Some people use the, "I'm offended," stance to gain an advantage over the, "Free speech," side & shut down the discussion. I personally know a number of each of these types.

So, what type of debate are we going to have? One where the Free speech side is limited in what arguments they can put forward, while the anti free speech can say anything they like, with accusations of "Racist!" which is usually the case on OLO.

Let the games begin.

Dear Rob,
The marginalised and vulnerable covers pretty much everyone in the electorate, you mentioned minorities but in terms of putting their point of view in public minorities are automatically placed at the front of the queue my the mainstream media, it's called a "progressive stack".
Try going to the Age or the Australian and saying "I'm White, middle aged and male and my list of concerns is..."
Think of it this way, 18c gives protection to certain groups in Australian society but they are not governed by it but the majority of people are not protected by 18c yet we are governed by it.
You see the problem? A society can't function that way, no person from a "minority" can ever fall foul of 18c but they can use it to protect their interests and are allowed to speak freely and without limits no matter how offensive their words are. A person from the Ethnic White majority is liable to prosecution under 18c so we must limit the topics we address in public and the way we address them but we cannot use the racial discrimination laws to defend our own interests.
18c is a limit first of all on the political liberty of the Ethnic White majority because discussion of certain topics is always taken as being "in bad faith" or at least not in good faith.
The attitude of Anti Racists and minority activists basically boils down to "Fascism is not to be debated, it is to be smashed!", anyone who doesn't agree with those privileged but not governed by 18c is branded a "Fascist" and the easiest way to "smash" them is with the human rights laws.

If you are going to argue for the "right to be heard" we can equally argue for the "right to not listen". Surely the rise of Web 2.0 means that it is much easier for minority interest groups to access a platform be it a blog, podcast or video. One only has to look at the latest Senate Voting papers to see how many more minority interest groups are being heard than say 50 years ago.

Spinoza said it best. "Every man should think what he wants and say what he thinks." He did not say every man has to listen to what any other man says.

I agree with the first two posts. The ones that espouse democracy take the opportunity to drown out the opinions of those with whom they disagree and then it is suggested that they do not get a free voice for their own opinions and that they are not heard sufficiently, so they stifle debate. None of them on last night's Q & A ever presented an argument against the fact that many Australians subsidise their education and who themselves derive no direct benefit themselves.

What a magnificent student protest on ABC's Q&A on Monday night. Tony Jones and the other members of the one percent were not amused. Get used to it Tony. This is what democracy looks like.

http://enpassant.com.au/2014/05/06/that-qa-protest-this-is-what-democracy-looks-like/

There's a rhetorical tautology at the centre of the pro 18c case which pans out as "Nations should be judged by the way they treat their minorities", that's why it's seen as socially acceptable to censor anyone from the Ethnic White majority who has the temerity to ask "What about us?".
The author also doesn't seem to understand how in-group supremacism as state policy works, it's all about creating different standards for different groups in society, elevating some and denigrating others to maintain the power base and economic interests of an elite and it's bourgeoisie.
I've taking to framing 18c as an artifact of "White Supremacism" in debates with it's supporters just to bait them but tactically it's important to point out that it's premised on in group-out group dynamics and is, if we may: "Classical Colonialism".

A magnificent student protest, Passy?
Bovine excreta!
What is magnificent about hijacking a huge audience's news information source with prepared banners and reheased conformist chants?
The broadcast was being conducted on private corporate property with the right of any member of that audience to participate under simple rules of procedure.
This group of noisy children just didn't understand the process by which the right of free speech is enjoyed.
What they did was to alienate viewers who now will be more probably likely to approve whatever repressive action the federal government may take on university funding in the forthcoming budget.

Ha, ha, ha; passy takes the piss; look at the link, "More Brains not warplanes".

Nary a brain present in the left and the socialists on display last night on Jones' follies. They're against fascists; yeah well, let's see them go down to the nearest mosque and jump up and down there.

What a bunch of cowards, hypocrites and bludgers.

Really cohenhite, you should be more precise in your language. What was cowardly about the protest? What was hypocritical about it? And how can you call them bludgers without having a clue about their circumstances? There are valid criticisms that can be made bout the protest, no need to resort to inanity.

Well as someone who believes in the right to free speech, even were that offends, I thought that the students had a right to voice their opinion, but were not granted a right to hijack the debate!
Their message was heard loud and clear, and even aroused a little supportive hand clapping, long before it stopped!
Henry Lawson might have said, when he was being very polite, a trifle overdone!
However, given the length of the performance, it turned from a reasonable protest into an extremely rude and overlong interruption that simply denied any others their right to speak freely or even exercise the right of reply!
And in that context, killed any support previously engendered!
My kids went to uni, but had to drop out due to associated accommodation costs, which are always higher for kids from the country!
So its not the tuition fees per se that are the problem for many, just the additional accommodation costs, city central rents, electricity, and the occasional oddball you're forced to share with; most city kids simply don't have to pay, or endure; given they're still at home sponging off the oldies?
It also seriously shortened Q+A, leaving many with their right to also speak freely, gagged by the stunt; with the obdurate length, crowding out the message and any sympathy for their cause or point!?
Reasonable people would have made their point, then shut up, while they were still ahead!
Freedom of speech includes the right of reply, a right these "simple" tail wagging the dog folks, just denied everybody else!
They weren't on the street or in a public place, but rather, at a private meeting, where people are essentially invited!
And simply didn't have a right to hijack the program!
At the end of the day, they effectively denied other speakers the common courtesy of being able to reply, or just speak, given they completely drowned out the person who was then speaking, just as you might expect from I want, I want, me, me, spoiled brats with no manners!
Not at all impressed!
Rhrosty.

Rob Cover, those offended by Andrew Bolt could have easily been "heard" by suing him for defamation.

They didn't do that.

Jay Of Melbourne, yes all these help-the-vulnerable-minority laws and policies reek of White elitism.

Those poor wretches just can't get anywhere on their own, we need to give them a hand.

Ponder, yes people like this never think that the louder they yell, the more likely they will turn people off.
Not by what they say, but the *way* they say it.

Back to Activism For Beginners class, kids.

@Passy,

<<What a magnificent student protest...Get used to it... This is what democracy looks like>>

It was an example of Lefty bully boy/girl tactics.

I'll bet that if a mob of Nazis closed down the discussion in similar fashion Passy wouldnt be saying: "Get used to it... This is what democracy looks like"

Heaven help us if Passy & co every get power!

Fair enough Candide, I don't want to be perceived as being inane.

I think these people are hypocrites because we never see them protest against far worse offenders of human rights like Islam, like North Korea and its keeper China or any African state, for instance Boko Haram and its government affiliations in Nigeria.

The left always pick soft targets and there is none softer than the conservatives who are restrained by their nature and philosophy.

This also explains my charge of cowardice; it takes bravery to protest against the horrors of Islam and no bravery at all to sneak on Q&A [if they weren't invited] and carry on like pork chops.

As for bludgers; the left are full of righteous entitlement; is there a left wing activist who isn't employed by the government?

Ok.

What ever happened to "children should be seen but not heard".

Why on earth would any sensible person pay attention to these still wet behind the ears children. They should be busy studying to learn some of the facts of life in this rather nasty world, rather than showing their naivety with childish games.

This type of behavior comes as something of a result of modern teaching methods. These kids have never had to justify their existence, or even face their own mediocrity. They obviously have a highly inflated idea of their value, & the value of their childish thinking.

A waste of space & time comes to mind, but probably nothing a few years working on the roads wouldn't cure.

Hasbeen,LOL
It's been put a different way too We're the adults! When did our employees become our bosses?

We are beginning to see the real face of the Liberals these days – and why should I bother to mention the Nationals? ‘To keep the bastards honest’ does not apply anymore, nor it seems egalitarianism, fairness, equality, opportunity, education, medical care, employment or culture - the only thing that seems to count these days is what is at the bottom line of the account, not the citizens of this once great nation. No wonder the uncomfortable and embarrassing sweat speaks for itself, but wait till Tuesday the 13th, and how appropriate such a date, it brings thoughts of darkness, doom and failure. I can only hope the stench is not too visible on TV.

And how this government has failed us, or should I say mislead us with their slogans, promises and falsehoods into making us believe that what they said, especially about having ‘the right team’ to do the job. Wrong, we have become an embarrassment to the world, and I personally feel embarrassed to have a leadership such as ours - made of jokers and sinkers (the singer on Q&A chose the right song, but the buffoon was sitting next to him) - compare to real leaders and statesmen such as President Obama and the rest of the world leaders and their teams.

We are, day by day, looking more and more like a bunch of P&C Board meddlers wearing the blue team tie, and believe you me, I am not forgetting the women for that matter.
Are we trying to build a nation of clever, sophisticated people that do have jobs in more than ‘the services industry’, or are we going back to the 50’s selling meat and coal? And how long do you think we'll be allowed to have the foot at the door as you might say?

A nation is made of its culture and its people, their aspirations, hopes and dreams, not of peddlers and bookkeepers. What we saw on Q&A is just the beginning.

"What we saw on Q&A is just the beginning."

Beginning of what Vivaura?

Personally I hope Abbott does break at least one promise and that is to not defund the ABC. The ABC is a publically funded media outlet which promulgates a hard left green position on all issues. It's bias is palpable and I believe the socialists' stunt last night had been expected if not approved by Q&A and it went out of control.

On radio this morning Jon Faine complained about the protestors and wished they had:

“just got up, made their amateur impact, then sat back down, and let the abc get on with the professional job of destroying tories.”

"professional job of destroying tories"

The left in Australia are a blight and they should not be paid to be nuisances.

kids that have never been spanked in their lives showing the fruit of their rebellion and dressing it up in some kind of self righteous cruscade. Christophobes allowed to spew poison for decades via universities and national broadcasters and now taking the high moral ground on racial and religous matters. Go figure. So true that inward corruption seems to manifest in outward hyprocrisy.

The author shows he completely misunderstands ohr western concepts of free speech, the workings of our democratic system of government a d our mores revarding courtsey and manners.

His type of disruption to our society should be legislated against and outlawed. Offenders should be sent to reeducation camps, gulags or suffer extrajudicial capital punishment.

Tim would agree with that.

What a dangerous and crazy proposition: a "right to be heard"?

What's next if such a thing is accepted - will they forcibly remove my ear-plugs? will we be forced to listen to certain radio/television programs or read certain newspapers, then have to pass a test to prove that we heard/read and understood their content? or are we going to be forcibly dragged to scientology lectures?

The fact that the victim on the receiving end of this "right" happens to be a politician should make no difference - this very idea should be buried forever twenty thousand leagues under the sea!

Yuyutsu
I agree. The “right to be heard” implies an obligation on the listener to treat every fool, bigot, ideologue, conspiracy theorist and monomaniac with the same respect as someone who knows what they are talking about.

I also think this article provides some insight into how the left has talked itself into opposing free speech, which historically it sometimes championed. Its fundamental assumptions are dualism (the world is divided into victims and perpetrators) and identity politics – that a person’s right to protection and respect is determined by the categories they belong to (class, ethnicity, gender, religion etc). Hence, the vulnerable deserve privileged protection if they are members of “marginalised minorities” (presumably only some “marginalised minorities”, though – I guess paedophiles are not on the list of those with a “right to be heard”). From this it’s just a short step to believing that closing down debate and shouting down ministers trying to explain government policies is democratic.

Free speech is a fundamentally liberal value that has at its heart respect for the dignity and autonomy of the individual. Collectivist ideologies that prioritise peoples’ rights according to the categories to which they belong are fundamentally at odds with this.

Rhian,
Agreed but you spoke in haste on pedophiles and the support they receive from the Left.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNyXxzt6DAA

How 'Gay' Laws Set Stage for Paedophilia Rights:

http://www.wnd.com/2013/07/gay-laws-s...

Harriet Harman -- Paedophile Apologist:

http://www.rockingphilosophy.com/2014...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/artic...

APA Tries to Reclassify Paedophilia as a Sexual Orientation:

http://www.rockingphilosophy.com/2013...

EU Report Advocates Teaching Masturbation To Newborns:

http://www.rockingphilosophy.com/2013...

German Paedophile Group:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/z...

J O M Live one day in the shoes of a Gay person, then you might learn of the stigmatization, demeaning of being and persecution Gay people live with daily.

The other point that comes to mind is how some equate not getting your own way with not being listened to or not being heard.

I don't know a lot about Pyne, what I've seen has left me less than impressed but I wonder how the protestors know that he has not given consideration to the points they make. I assume that Q&A was not the first time that he would have had access to the main points of the protestors case.

I do think it is encumbant on those seeking to represent us to take the time to consider all main parts to a case. That does not somehow create the time for a minister to listen to every individual who wishes to put a case.

My impression is that the ral argument is not that the protestors have not been heard, its that they did not get what they wanted. Try making a right out of always getting your own way.

R0bert

<<Free speech is a fundamentally liberal value that has at its heart respect for the dignity and autonomy of the individual. Collectivist ideologies that prioritise peoples’ rights according to the categories to which they belong are fundamentally at odds with this.>>

Yesssssss. Well put, Rhian.

Kipp

'J O M Live one day in the shoes of a Gay person, then you might learn of the stigmatization, demeaning of being and persecution Gay people live with daily. '

get a job with the ABC and you will be adored.

Yes, good post Rhian.

Kipp, don't tell us, tell the Muslims. I mean they are such good chums of the gay community.

oh well the normal trolls of this site are at it again.I wonder how many of them a liberal party staffers?

JOM you need to get in touch with your inner queer mate, there no such hate as self loathing.. but the good news is there is nothing wrong with being Gay.

cohenite do you write your own post? can you tell me a magic time when we had free speech in Australia? do really belive that only the left (whoever that is) has passed laws that limit it. Now before you answer try using the internet to do some reasearch, it's pretty easy, but using google rather then conservapedia.

Runner as always you are a shining beacon, noboby does stupid as good as you.

Well finally the Students are waking up. Perhaps there is hope.http://www.globalreserach.ca/

Dear Rhian,

Good, but just a word of caution:

<<Free speech is a fundamentally liberal value that has at its heart respect for the dignity and autonomy of the individual>>

If we truly respect the dignity and autonomy of the individual, then EVERY action which hurts no others should be legal, rather than making a special case for the particular act of opening one's mouth and emitting legible sound-waves (so long as they don't impinge on the neighbour's ears).

Thus we should not be speaking of "free speech" as a separate "right", else it may be understood that other activities need not be free.

I can see where this is going.

Free speech is only for minority groups, anyone else is banned of course.

Minority groups are made up of People who think they are victims. People who are offended by everything & people who are looking to have power over majority groups.

Yuyutsu
completely agree - free speech is integrally linked with other types of freedom. I also agree that harm (not offence) defines the limit of free speech. Mill's "On Liberty" advocates fiercely for free speech, but describes the boundary thus:

"... even opinions lose their immunity, when the circumstances in which they are expressed are such as to constitute their expression a positive instigation to some mischievous act. An opinion that corn-dealers are starvers of the poor, or that private property is robbery, ought to be unmolested when simply circulated through the press, but may justly incur punishment when delivered orally to an excited mob assembled before the house of a corn-dealer, or when handed about among the same mob in the form of a placard"

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/34901/34901-h/34901-h.htm

Kipp
Not all free speech advocates are racist or homophobic. I have often defended gay rights in these forums (and racial equality, come to that). But from a (small-“l”) liberal perspective, it is because each individual is entitled to equal rights and equal dignity that, for example, I support marriage equality. For the same reasons, I also support the right of people to object to gay marriage, or to homosexulaity more generally, though I disagree with them.

Q&A is not an open forum. All questions by the audience are vetted by Tony Jones and the ABC. They like our Govts are owned and controlled by the banking ,military industrial complex.

Move beyond the lame stream media and know the truth. http://paulcraigroberts.org/ http://www.globalreserach.ca/

not much tO SAY ON THIS/BUT TONY HANDLED IT LIKE A FOOL
he shopuld have gotten out of his seet..with A FREAKING MICHROP[HONE..AND SAID YOU HAVE ONE MINUTE FROM NOW

INSTEAD we got A FREAKING DUMB CUTUREal suinger
now i know why i gave up watching the late NIGHT .TOO LATE MATES MATE BERATE..he could have made proper news..simply by giving one minute.open mike..[I CAn real my indiocy..in a few lines/yet i write 7000 FREAKING WORDS A DAY/FOR WHAT?

GIVE ME ONe minute on the mike

Arjay: All questions by the audience are vetted by Tony Jones and the ABC.

You are right Arjay. Actually I have said this before & got howled down for the comment. Before you get invited to precipitate you submit any Questions you want to ask. These are reviewed by the Station & if acceptable you get handed back your Question. The Panel knows about your Question before hand & who will ask it.

This makes for an orderly Programme going to Air, otherwise it would be a free for all & that wouldn't make good TV for the Public. Throw in an unruly mob of ratbags & it disrupts the tidiness, as you saw happen on the night. It really takes about 2 hours to make a half hour Programme of this type. They are produced well before going to Air so the Editors can do their thing, "Cut & Paste," It used to be, "cut & splice" when I was 17. I was a, "Applaud, Stop, Clap, Laugh" boy. A whole day to make half hour Musical Programme. Eg; Saturday Date.

JABY../quote..<<>.It really takes about 2 hours to make a half hour Programme of this type.>>

but its live isnt it?
or eLSE WHY DIDNT THEY EDIT THE DAMM SINGER OUT
POINT BEING..I WOULD MUCH PREFER RANDON..talking stICK[OPEN MIKE]
ONE MINUTE /SORTED BY THEIR COMMON TOPIS As voted on line[grahaM COULD DO IT/VIA BRIS COMMUNITY TV]..the ful two hours..live and online/that edited into an hour/as chosen by online poll

<<. They are produced well before going to Air so the Editors can do their thing, "Cut & Paste," It used to be, "cut & splice" when I was 17. I was a, "Applaud, Stop, Clap, Laugh" boy. A whole day to make half hour Musical Programme. Eg; Saturday Date.>>

im suck of talking heads allways talking the same same moderated cenusred 'same;..the only time one has the right to speak freely is begFORE A JURY OF OUR PERS[OR IF WE DONE criminality..the judge.

OK THATS THE gist of my one minute

Q+A, is a top rating program!
The only improvement one could make, is to make it a pollie free forum?
The only reason the protesters decided to show, was the fact that a politician they had issues with, was attending?
No pollies equates to no protesters? Hopefully? Occasionally?
As for the questions being vetted?
Good, given it gives those being asked the questions time to consider and give a reasonably coherent, well thought through reply?
Do we deserve any less?
Rhrosty.

Hey, Professor Rod Cover, who is a "Professor of Culture' (whatever the hell that is), when did you, as an educated person sell out your principles as an advocate for free speech, and become a political reactionary advocating political censorship? Voltaire and Karl Marx would be wondering what kind of an academic you are.

If I am "Insulting, offending, humiliating, or intimidating" you by saying that about you, then that is too bad. It is not illegal because you are an individual and I am not mentioning your "race, colour, or national or ethnic origin." It is also normal bloody human discourse that people use every day. As a "Professor of Culture", I would have thought that you have had the wit to understand that.

The Racial Discrimination Act can be, and is being used, to promote political censorship. If you can't figure that out then how did you get your job? Do you just need a ring in one ear and an Andy Warhol haircut to get a $200,000 a year job in a university making excuses for leftist oppression?

Your excuses are pathetic. I liked the one about how the poor, oppressed university students, who want the taxpayer to fund their education for free, are exercising "free speech" by shouting down and shutting down a TV show where people are acting like adults and using polite discourse and reasoned arguments to examine a contentious issue. How can an educated person push that little bit of ridiculous spin? But in a way you were right. Your little mates came across as the tantrum throwing spoiled brats they are, and they lost any public sympathy.

You are even suggesting that what they did was free speech because the little darlings have no recourse to the media. They had recourse to the media on TV and they blew it big time. And for most of my life the media has been pushing the left wing party line and telling their paying readers what trash they are for so long, that the public won't buy newspapers that push that line any more.

uog: but its live isnt it?

NO! The programmes you see at night are made during the day & shown at night after Editing. All Game Shows (Come on down) are all made on the one day & shown one at a time through the week. You would have tickets to a time slot if you are in the audience. Don't know about Q&A. I surmise it would be the same.

Ahhh... Television land & Governments. All smoke & mirrors. Such is life.

Yes, wouldn't it be nice if people listened ? But of course, they don't have to. And after all, how would you legislate for it ? How could you tell if someone was actually listening or simply appearing to, while they mentally worked out if they had change for the next bus trip, or checked out an attractive passer-by ?

And, of course, it would be a two-way street. But try telling those students that.

Good luck with your Utopian project.

Joe

Yes, wouldn't it be nice if people listened ? But of course, they don't have to. And after all, how would you legislate for it ? How could you tell if someone was actually listening or simply appearing to, while they mentally worked out if they had change for the next bus trip, or checked out an attractive passer-by ? Would there be an app for that ?

And, of course, it would be a two-way street. But try telling those students that. Not that they have to listen :)

How come all Utopian projects seem to drift towards authoritarianism ?

Joe

Got that right, Loudmouth. Well said. Every state begun by fuzzy minded intellectuals advocating the highest principles has always degenerated into repression and censorship when their economy and infrastructure starts coming apart.

We should have more protests, without protests at the time of the Vietman war many more Australian National Servicemen would have been killed. Tony Jones should not have said it was undemocratic on Q&A, it was democratic for the Uni students to voice their opinion, of course this show is vetted.
Congratulations Uni students for doing what you did, lets hope we see more protests in the future

THEV TRUTH IS NO ONE IS LIstening
and if they are listening thEY ARE LISTENERS NOT DOERS
we Llive in the age of speciaisation/you CAN PROTEST 'HERE'[THEy applied that even on 45,000 acres of range and/they actuay buit a protest area/zone..[WEL OUT OF THE WAY OF BUISNESS AS USUAL

THE THOUGHT WAS OF A VOICE CRYING IN THE Wwilderness

why does wildiNG COME TO MIND

letgo/quOTE.<<>...Every state begun by fuzzy minded intellectuals..>>
SEEING A PROBLEM..and creating a remedy

<<>>advocating the highest principles..>..THAT..<<..has always degenerated into repression and censorship..when their economy and infrastructure starts coming apart.>>

THE best laid plans/of mice and men[is comprehensabe..once we see this as satans realm[the place we get pUT INTO WHEN WE DONT FIT/IN HEAVEN..nor hell..[THE DEFAULT Option..is here][thats WHY ITS A MESS/ITS DESIGNED TO FORCE US INTO CHOSING...[next time]..one or the other

think/like 3 doors/love=heaven/hate=hell..
indifference ya go back to go...GET INSTANTLY reborn/then miND CLEANSED/WASHED..IN UTRO..till we get rebirthed..TO TRY THIS time to find our peers and passion/that take us through eternity

THE EARTH HAS BEEN restored many times
THE BIG BANG WAS WHEN WE FINALLY decided things arnt back/WHITE/BUT THATS ALLRIGHT/just this live find something that really gets you passionATE/[What is salt thats not salty]

nabOJ/QUOTE..<<more protests,..>>

THEY KNOW YOU MUST GO BACK TO WORK
CHANGE ONly comes by occupation/the system MAKES EVER MORE IMPOSSABE FREEDOMS..TO SEEK CHANGE..untill the public service joins us/but then they subvert it/in SHORT JUST accept/this is as good as we can majke it BE

<<Tony Jones should not have said it was undemocratic on Q&A,>>

he thinks he is king mucK/i hate him stopping questions ans ANSWERS/HE ISNT THERE To shepard sheep/but to expose the wolves

SCREW HIM/HE HAS BETRAYED US ALL[ALL MEDIA GAS]
THATS WHY HELl is full of paper....\ie..they chose/..as is their right


please tony..even you are sitting..on your own stool.
DONT MIS/..HEARING THE second hour/jorden/maXWELL..ON words;and real-meanings..
http://rss.infowars.com/20140507_Wed_Alex.mp3

free speech has its cost
http://jordanmaxwellshow.com/blog/2013/12/05/jms/
NOT SURE I AGREE WITH HIS CONCLUSIONS/but apPart from that i know the FEELING.

NEVER THE LEss im hearing 'him;'.freely
whether he is poisoning the well...well thats another matter.

lIKE I hEARD TODAY THE AVERAGE 'TAX PAID'..IS 3000
[HELL/BELLS THE AVERAGE SMOKER PAYS DOUBLE THAT JUST IN SMokers SIN taxes ]..GOVT STEALS SO MUCH MORE THAT THE CHURCH..YET..the govt is only wanting its caSH-COWS..for its mates slush funds/mates scemes and paLS SCAMS.

ike bailing out the too big to fail banks..with cash/..AT HALF A PERCENT..then borrowingl back THE SAME CASH AT 2%..when GOVT alone can MONETIZE..SECURITIES..LET ALONE BE INSURANCE... OF LAST RESORT.

..what drive
but i KNOW TOO
ITS WASTED PEOPLE DONT CARE
so what is it in us tO FIGHT/RATHER THAN STUMBLE.. into enslavemeNT.