Given the track record of the US involvement in Iraq, which has left that once-proud country of Iraq a complete wreck, I am very wary of Australia being involved with anything that the US does.
We were once a proud country who could stand between disputing countries as mediators.
Since John Howard took us to the illegal war with Iraq at the behest of the US we have now prostituted ourselves.
As an invading country of Iraq, under the Geneva Convention, we were legally bound to make restitution to that country for the damage that we have caused. This has not happened and Australia's standing in the world has diminished.
I am firmly against Australia giving the US a foothold in Australia in order that they can continue their rampaging ways in our part of the world.

This is a welcome critical piece about this
abomination inflicted on Australia's efforts
of past decades to become self reliant in our
defence - since the Defence white paper of
1976
More please

Do you think Raise the Dust, that if the once too proud Iraq had not invaded it's much smaller neighbor, & turned it's forces loose on an orgy of pillage & looting, they might have avoided the thumping they got? No of course not, your type never think.

Oh & asho, what do you think the ripping of over a billion a year from our defense budget by the very stupid read head, Gillard, might have done to "our efforts to self reliant in our defense". I didn't see any smilies, so I can only assume you are joking.

I think in the end the annual visits of the Marines are a good Australian-US policy.

In 2011, when the policy kicked off, the reasons were not as immediate. However with the dramatic increase in Chinese naval activity (ie. power projection) near Australia over the last two months an increased US presence in Australia is needed.

On another issue I'm wondering whether the disaster relief capacity of the 4 Super Stallion helicopters http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky_CH-53E_Super_Stallion in Darwin might prove useful after Cyclone Ita hits north Queensland in the next few hours - see http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/cyclone-ita-residents-go-to-shelters-as-storm-intensifies-to-category-5-20140411-36gmg.html .

Pete

Good piece which identifies the key issues. One problem that may occur is to the economic situation should the US change policies as withdraw back to a another strategic position. This could level a large whole in the NT economy.
The question should be also considered as to the links with the security intelligence gathered from the so called joint bases and the presence of the increase numbers of marines.
China is spreading it wings but to what effect no one but the Chinese know.

Raised on Bulldust,

<< the once too proud Iraq...>>

ROFL

Don't get me wrong there is a good argument to be made that we should not have gone there --leave them to there own devices, so to speak!

But to talk as if everything was just dandy prior to US involvement is baloney -only someone who regularly gets their news from one the leftwing rags could swallow that .

Thanks romingfree

Yes I agree that there is a risk that the US may shift priorities due to defence funding reductions (under sequestration) or shift its focus to other trouble spots. NT can't become too economically dependent.

Regarding joint facilities like Pine Gap - don't know if information gained would be directly useful for Marine forces in Darwin.

Australia's levers over the US hopefully keep the US honest and supportive. Major levers we have are our geography (good for bases), weapons that can interact with US forces and the money we spend (or overspend) on US weapons. Australia having to participate in US ventures like Iraq and Afghanistan can be a bit of a curse.

What role China wants to play in our region is indeed a big unknown.
--

Hi asho

A self-reliant Australia foreign-defence policy may have advantages in us not being locked into American strategic priorities. But it would certainly cost. Of other Western countries with a fair bit of autonomy:

- Switzerland requires and pays for national service

- Sweden heavily funds a large arms industry, and

- Israel has national service, an arms industry and the high costs of nuclear weapons.

How far do we want to go?

Regards

Pete

OK Peter. You don't like the yanks, and you don't want a US military presence in Australia. Even though this is supported by both Labor and Liberal governments. That makes your position a fringe group position.

You even sneer at the allied effort in Afghanistan that brought Osama bin Laden to justice. Personally, I think that genetically eradicating the worst kind of religious fundamentalism using Predator drones and Apache helicopters is a great idea. The Afghans are now talking about "the American generation" of Afghan youths, (especially young females) who have now been exposed to western ideas and who lijke what they see. How is the Taliban gonna keep 'em, down on the farm, now that they have seen Pareee?

Honestly, Peter. How it is that you adopt a position totally at odds with mainstream thinking is beyond me? I suppose it is another case of people like you having a compulsive need to think that you are special, so you adopt the position of chronic naysayers to draw attention to yourselves.

So how's life in Alabama LEGO or is that Moonshine talking?

If you were paying attention matey you would have noticed http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=16207#281886

"I think in the end the annual visits of the Marines are a good Australian-US policy.

In 2011, when the policy kicked off, the reasons were not as immediate. However with the dramatic increase in Chinese naval activity (ie. power projection) near Australia over the last two months an increased US presence in Australia is needed."

Keep off the banjo's n turps bro

http://youtu.be/Uzae_SqbmDE

:)

Blind Freddy can see that America’s “pivot to Asia” is “containment of China”. Stationing US marines in Darwin is only the most overt of Gillard’s ( and now I suppose the current government’s) commitment. Surely, if we live in a democracy, the Australian people are entitled to a full explanation.

Hi Leslie

I wouldn't hold ya breath. On so many security issues (for which we taxpayer's pay) the attitude appears to be "we don't need to tell you - so we aren't going to". Hence we only learnt from the Dutch media, not our own muzzled media, about important battles of our troops in Afghanistan a few years back.

Multinational arms companies (eg. Lockheed) that sell to our government would learn more realities from our government than we learn.

Regards

Pete

If you are suggesting that that white people of Alabama are ignorant, banjo playing inbreds, Plantagent, you are just as big a racist as I am.

And now how's this for a kicker - PM Abbott reckons we could soon see the Chinese military exercising in the Top End, perhaps along with the US Marines and Australian Diggers.
And if they all exercise together, maybe they can all go home again, home again when the exercises are over.
And if wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

"Australia's levers over the US hopefully keep the US honest and supportive," says Pete naively.

Pete, Australia has no levers over the U.S. None!

The U.S. is the most duplicitous, greedy nation on Earth and is clearly its biggest warmonger.

You continue to back the wrong horse!

Hi LEGO

Sorry mate. I wouldn't presume to equal your racism authoritah :) The plot places the banjo playing action in northern Georgia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deliverance#Plot . I've been to Alabama and they were quite nice.

--

Hi halduell

Yeah this (on the run?) policy initiative of Chinese forces exercising in NT or northern Qld is quite a surprise. Wonder how realistic it will be - real ammo?
--

Hi David

As you can see in this string the centrist line doesn't please the pro-US right or the anti-US left. Raising issues is my main aim.

Cheers

Pete

Regarding Tony Abbott's mention yesterday of possible Australia-US-China exercises.

I did a bit of research and it looks like there's a track record for limited Aus-China "exercises".

Future Aus-US-China "exercises" appear to have been already on the cards - pre-cleared and US hosting around Hawaii:

Last 3 lines of http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2014/04/12/china-could-train-aussie-troops-pm reads:

"In late 2012, Australia hosted exercise Co-operation Spirit, featuring a small number of Australian, New Zealand and Chinese People's Liberation Army personnel.

This didn't involve troops with weapons against a pretend adversary. Rather, participants practised disaster relief and medical procedures at Enoggera Barracks in Brisbane over four days.

For the first time, Chinese forces will participate in [2014's] US-hosted RIMPAC, the world's largest maritime exercise staged on and around Hawaii in June and July. However, PLA involvement will be limited to exercises in disaster relief."

Pete

>> what do you think the ripping of over a billion a year from our defense budget by the very stupid read head, Gillard, might have done to "our efforts to self reliant in our defense">>

Any sign that the current lot are going to restore the cuts?

I'm neither a Gillard nor Rudd fan but neither do I have any illusions about Abbott

Said it before... say it again. US base at Mandorah opposite Darwin Harbour about to be built with tacit approval of NT/Cth govt's. Airfeild all ploughed up (near Cox Peninsula Rd just back from Belyuen community) - all there on Google Earth. Currently a rotation of around 300 US troops from various units primarily Hawaiian regiments goes through Darwin every 3-4 months for 'familiarisation exercises' out at Mt Bundy, Delamere. Anyone can see the new Subic Bay on the horizon, now the focus has shifted from Iraq/Afghanistan.

MH370 farce is just a run up to the new SEATO, to get the Indonesians on side coz just like the old Chiefs & PO's used to say 40 yrs ago..." beware of the Indons..."

The base itself will probably begin being constructed later this year once Herr Abbott gives it the nod. Expect around 35,000 US troops, sailors and airmen to be stationed in the Top End by the end of 2020.

Radioactive "waste dump" proposed for Muckaty Creek Station (110 klms north of Tennant Ck) is a smoke screen for nuke weapons site for the US ramp up at Tindal RAAF Base.

Hi stevenlmeyer

A difficult question on whether the Abbott gov "are going to restore the cuts?"

I'd guess that continuing or new cuts (for 2014/15 and maybe 2015/16) will be mainly in terminating defence civilians particularly in DMO.

Many civilians terminated from DMO might rapidly sign on for tender assessment work for the future submarine (SEA 1000) project. The acquisition of X? number of F-35 and scheduling the buy of F-35s will also generate civilian personnel assessment openings. From 14/15 to beyond 2020 civilian personnel costs for SEA 1000 and F-35 will continue.

In terms of hardware purchases the Hobart Class AWD project is already way over budget and more money will need to be injected to finish the 3rd AWD. Whether Canberra Class LHD will go overbudget or if there will be a budget increase anyway - I don't know.

From 2018 F-35 hardware will be an increasing cost and from about 2022 SEA 1000 will increasingly become a submarine design, purchasing and then hardware build cost.

In summary for two years 2014-2016 "austerity" Defence budget on paper might have zero increase then will increase for rehired personnel and new hardware. The political heading "jobs for SA, Melbourne, Sydney and Canberra" will be an important re-election pitch for Abbott's gov.

What do you think?

Regards

Pete

Hi Albie Manton in Darwin

Do you have any accessible computer links (from other sources) to support the "Mandorah is going to be a US base" theory?

Any specifics or ideas on what type of US units might be stationed there?

I've done a little research - some in this thread might be interested that there is a Mandorah Ukulele and Folk Festival with the Freudian acronym "MUFF" http://www.eventfinder.com.au/2014/muff-2014-mandorah-ukulele-and-folk-festival/northern-territory .

Regards

Pete

To Plantagent.

Regardless of whether the white people you hold racist views about live in Alabama or Georgia, it is still racism to make derogatory inferences about an entire ethnic group of people of any nationality or race. That includes white people. I know that people with your views find that hard to accept, because making racist statements about white people while giving pious lectures on the evils of racism is what people like yourself do all the time, and it has become normalised doublethink.

I used to be an "anti racist" like yourself because I was programmed to be one by the NSW education Department. But this constant double standard, whereby every race and minority on planet Earth is beyond criticism, while white people are fair game for white despising "anti racists", caused me to re examine the whole "anti racist" ideology.

Now that you are aware of your own racism, one hopes that this may stimulate a bit of neuronal activity in you steadily atrophying intellect. There is nothing like the realisation that you have become what you most vehemently condemn to spark a little introspection into you value system.

Anybody interested in Australian history would be glad that the yanks are coming to Darwin again.

When the Japs bombed Darwin, most the entire Australian garrison ran for their lives (The Adelaide River stakes). The only ones who stood their ground were the Australian Navy, the ack ack guns, and the Yanks. The RAAF staff at Tindal made a mass advance at high speed in the direction of Adelaide.

Meanwhile, a US NAvy destroyer went down in Darwin harbour with it's guns still firing as she slipped under. A flight of US Army Airforce Kittyhawk fighters who had just taken off for the Dutch East Indies spotted the incoming Japs and they turned around and tore into them. All of these brave Americans were shot down and killed. Thank you USA.

The why 265 people were killed in Darwin that day (most of them seamen) was because the ALP affiliated Waterside Workers Union was always on strike or conducting "go slows", even in wartime. It was said of the Darwin Wharfies, that the only way to get a ship unl;oaded in Darwin was to put the beer at the bottom of the hold.

Over 40 ships were in Darwin harbour because of delays in loading and fueling caused by the wharfies, and that is why so many seamen were killed. Perhaps the ALP left should sign a "sorry book" about the fact that so many of their unionist mates did everything possible to sabotage the war effort. It was the strikes in the Coal, Steelmaking, and wharf loading industries, at a time when Australia was about to be invaded by a sadistic, genocidal and rapacious enemy, which broke Curtains heart.

The day after the air raid saw shocking scenes where able bodied men pulled women and children off the last train out of Darwin. (They were probably ALP endorsing wharfies) and associated left whingers. The attack on Darwin remains one of the most disgraceful episodes in Australian history.

And today, it is the descendants of these left wing morons who scream about the presence of US soldiers on Australian soil.