Andrew
its fine to be concerned about he angst suffered by those in detention but its naive in the extreme to assume that anywhere near the majority are being truthful in their claims of persecution as every person from the refugee industry keep insisting.

Andrew I suppose it has never occurred to someone like you, that the government's job is to look after our own. Boat people, or any other gate crashers should come a very long way last, & then only as they depart.

I see you have always been a bleeding heart. Always more interested in the no hoper, than those who are taxed to make the no hoper more comfortable, & ease his miserable life.

Could it be that birds of a feather flock together. Looks like it to me.

On this argument we shouldn't lock up people because they've commited a crime in the community. The incarceration might harm their self worth and restrict their community access.

The author needs a reality check. The world ain't fair and s..t happens. In this case self inflicted things happen. They chose to come nowing they would not be accepted. They're paying the price of their stupidity.

DKit

<< …one thing which is beyond dispute is that prolonged, indefinite detention – even in the best conditions – is seriously harmful… >>

Andrew, it could be seriously harmful to some people. It is not automatically seriously harmful. I think you are strongly overstating the situation.

Same applies to travelling on rickety boats across the open sea.

The frustration and anger at not getting refugee status or not being able to settle in Australia if they did get it would surely be potentially much more harmful. And yet that is a very reasonable policy for our government to have implemented, as is detention for as long as it takes to sort out their claims for refugee status.

Also, the continuation of onshore asylum seeking in anything like the numbers that we were seeing last year, is likely to be seriously harmful to our rule or law, national budget and social coherence.

The important thing is that the boats be stopped, the deaths at sea stop, and the number of people facing the prospect of lengthy stays in detention, being returned to their homelands or being settled in PNG, does not increase from this point forward.

I have responded to your articles on OLO many times Andrew over the last few years. I’ve got to say that you seem to concentrate on the wrong aspects and just fail to see it all in a holistic manner.

Time and time again it has seemed that if we had got what you desired with respect to the whole onshore asylum seeking issue, there would have been no way that we could have stopped it, and indeed it would have escalated greatly, with many times the number of people being subjected to the harmful effects of detention, rejection of refugee status, etc.

our treatment of refugees is shameful and barbaric, and quite possibly illegal:

http://www.hrlc.org.au/australias-indefinite-non-reviewable-detention-of-refugees-on-security-grounds-violates-international-law

So the refugee advocates once again exhibit their moral status displays. That dishonest lot do not admit that those so-called refugees remain in the camps voluntarily - they can get a free ticket home any time they want.

Those moralising poseurs got Rudd to stop a system that worked, and it cost 1200 lives lost at sea.

Those self-righteous poseurs have cost Autralians billions of dollars ripped out of the future of Australian children to fund those poseurs' self-image.

Those angry poseurs ignore the fact that the 'asylum seekers' have such honest cases that they destroy their identity papers when the Australian rescuer heaves into view. They are such good people that they sabotage their boats and sink them endangering many lives so that Australians are forced to rescue them. Sinking boats deliberately to endanger lives at sea is a criminal act.

The exploiters of those people's misery, the Left and the refugee activists, are not rational but driven by 'projection'. They deny the reality of the situation because they are filled with hate, hate for a confected strawman idea of the Right. It gives them a smug moral satisfaction to show themselves 'better', more 'moral' people than ordinary Australians and Coalition politicians, who are now charged with the task of repairing the harm done.

All that hate, all that cost, all those lives lost at sea, for the aggrandisement of Australian moral poseurs.

ChrisPer

The “free ticket” home can be a ticket to persecution, torture, imprisonment, death.

As to the “reality of the situation”, I recommend this doco:

http://deepblueseafilm.com/

I don’t think I’m more moral than anyone else. But on this issue, I think this government and the previous one are badly wrong

Interesting that those accepting the appalling incarceration of asylum seekers, are themselves origins of boat people.

Dear Andrew, [] please find attached hanky. You may find it useful to wipe away your crocodile tears.

Please read all the previous posts. I'll think you'll find that they all agree that you are full of $#!t, & you are making a living out of playing up controversy.

Rhian: our treatment of refugees is shameful and barbaric, and quite possibly illegal

I'm sorry luv. Our treatment of these queue jumpers in the Detention Camps is much better than the treatment of Refugees in the UNCHR Camps & any other Detainee Camps anywhere in the world. How do the queue jumpers appreciate these facilities. See below. This was last year.

"Sorry it has taken so long to get back to you. As you may have heard the camp we have been constructing over the past 8 months has been burned to the ground. The riot and subsequent fire occurred on the evening of Friday the 19th since then we have constructed a temporary camp (tent city) for the detainees that are not banged up in the Nauru jail. The accommodation that was burned was of a very high standard and the dining facilities were second to none. These bastards were being fed better than us worker bees and living
accommodation better than the locals

Before I came here I was somewhat sympathetic toward refugees believing some were genuine. After the events of the 19th I am of the opinion that the group of male refugees here on Nauru are nothing more than violent arrogant criminals. The Iranians are no better than the Tamals or any other of the ethnic groups that we have here they are all the same . These people are the scum of the earth and should under no circumstance be permitted to live in Australia.

This is where your tax dollars are being spent. Billions of Dollars spent on people who cause their own problem then blame the rest of the World.

This is why the Medicare system is being changed. This is why Australia's Road & Rail system Transport Infrastructure is falling to pieces, why our Schools are fighting for funds. Australian's first people aren't being looked after. Because stupid PC Do-gooders & left wing cry baby Greenie people want Australia to look after the Worlds poor before they look after Australian's. You can't help anyone else if you can't help yourself.

and this from someone who is not anonymous (a nurse who had worked there) compared Nauru conditions to a concentration camp:

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2013/s3684057.htm

Jayb, you live in one of the most prosperous countries in the world, inform yourself and drop the "its Me! Me!! and only about Me".
Live five minutes in those asylum seekers shoes, then you can make comment against them, not forgetting that you are a product of boat people.

Australia has lost its moral compass.
The majority of these refugees who make the most dangerous and perilous journey to our shores are from Iraq and Afghanistan.

We sent our Soldiers to their countires to help a few multi nationals secure oil reserves and oil pipelines. In achieving that we removed their governments, destroyed their economies and brutalised the entire people.

I can live with that,, what I can't live with is the Lies. I can accept an honest, we are tougher then you and we want to protect our way of life and we need oil and we don't trust the way you manage it.

But once we start believing crap about terrorists and start pointing fingers about the morality of foreign leaders - well believing that will just send you insane. It is a fantasy of lies which requires enormous emotional effort to sustain it enables our politicians to dilute our civil rights here, and haven't we become a craven compliant lot.

To think the same nation which can send itself into an epic emotional outpouring apologising to its indigenous people for heaven knows what happened and heaven knows when; this same country now builds concentration camps for the displaced people it illegal.y invaded and whos country we destroyed.

Really!

Even the barest familiarity with history should convince you what a slippery slop to butchery this is.

Yebiga,
Why don't the super rich oil barrons look after their own people instead of sending them here ? If you think deep enough you'll find they're the ones who have lost their moral compass not us. They have way, way more money than well ever have so direct your do-gooder tirade at them & see what you get.

Sorry individual
We, Australia sent our soldiers as apart of coalition of war criminals to enable the oil barons to get their hands on the reserves.

So we Australia, unwittingly or otherwise enabled the theft and the destruction of 2 countries where millions of their citizens have been made into refugees.

Some of those millions of refugees stupidly thought maybe Australia had some modicum of conscience.

But yes, we should demand that the oil barons recompensate these people and help pay for their introduction into our community.

We, Australia invaded Afghanistan and Iraq, who where no threat to Australia.
Australia accordingly has to take responsibility for its action, for being a part of the destruction and devastation of these two countries.
To those who think otherwise, answer why we should not take responsibility; for what has been done in our name.

I've got a great idea; close the abc and use the $1.2 billion to really find out whether these criminals in Manus are from Iran or whatever.

I send YEBIGA to Iran; he'd dazzle them with his syntax and erudition.

Some of those millions of refugees stupidly thought maybe Australia had some modicum of conscience.
Yebiga,
Australia DOES have some conscience or at least more than the Arabs. How many Arab countries do you know that take in refugees ? that oil excuse is not valid because everyone needs oil & no-one made that oil. It was western ingenuity that enabled the exploitation of those natural resources & the westerners have paid rouyalties since day 1. How many others besides the westerners do you know of do that PLUS take in those who are sent to out-breed us ? The refugees aren't stupid, Australians are !

Hi there Mr Andrew BARTLETT...

Having had a quick look at your background, it would be nice for you to try working for a change. Instead of engaging in politics, bleating about this and that, engaging in this 'social work' stuff, but not actually DOING anything for your salary ?

Ordinarily, I'd describe you as an atypical 'Leftie leaning' academic ? However, you've only mentioned an undergraduate degree in Social Work, hitherto formerly a course conducted by TAFE. So 'academic' is probably erroneous, thus a more appropriate sobriquet ought be found ? Perhaps a 'vociferous idler' (with respect) ?

Nevertheless, why not try out for a real job ? Perhaps a trade, catering industry even, back to TAFE for bridging studies ? Anything that permits you to embrace some legitimate work ?

You see Andrew, this country is full of people who do nothing and advise others how to do nothing, and that's sad, don't you think ?

Take care.

Thanks for sharing really nice information. keep posting

YEBIGA/Periot: We sent our Soldiers to their countires to help a few multi nationals secure oil reserves and oil pipelines. In achieving that we removed their governments, destroyed their economies and brutalised the entire people.

Let's see: In Iraq we removed Sadam. People were escaping from Iraq & Sadam long before the West intervened. What has happened since is the fault of the Fanatics Islamic Terrorists of both Sects who are hell bent on destroying everything in the name of Islam. Nothing to do with the West.

Lets see, Afghanistan. People were being killed left right & centre in Afghanistan. People were escaping in droves long before the West intervened & the Taliban are still hell bent on destroying everything that isn't what they think is Islamic. Nothing to do with the West.

Nothing to do with the West. Now who makes the money? The Arab Sheiks not the West. Who drives around in Solid Gold Humvees to their dozens of Gold & Silver Palaces? Arab Sheiks. While most common people can't even read or write & live in mud huts with very little in the way of medical facilities. What AID do they provide for the Refugees in the UNCHR Camps? Little to none. Who does provide the AID? The West. Why does the West provide this AID. According to the West, because we are Humanitarian. According to the Muslim, because it is the West's duty to pay the Jizyah Tax to Muslims.

My solution. Let the Oil Rich Sheiks take care of their own. Nothing to do with the West.

Well Jayb

By your standards, the IRA and the Irish were equally a bunch of terrorists who's political leaders consistently enriched themselves at the expense of their populace.
Thus for a century the Irish harboured militant terrorists who routinely detonated bombs in London and Belfast.

Should we have invaded Ireland?

Today, Israel terrorises 2.5 million Palestinians, practices ethnic cleansing, routinely arrests, incarcerates 12 year old children in concentration camps, and tortures them to obtain incriminating evidence against their parents, uncles etc..

Should we invade Israel? Should we at least put diplomatic pressure on them?

Are you conscious that you are merely Repeating the narrative provided to us by the mainstream media? Has it occurred to you to question the veracity of that narrative? And if so, why are you convinced of its truth?

When in your life have you witnessed a single dispute where one side was entirely pure and innocent, the other entirely wrong? Yet that is the narrative, this black white, good evil, you wish to passionately Promote here - in something intrinsically contentious.

Nice Post..

"Nice post".

Nazis.

When in your life have you witnessed a single dispute where one side was entirely pure and innocent, the other entirely wrong?
Yebiga,
Do you relly think Israel would continue their tactics if the Palestinians would stop terrorising ? And don't tell me about the Isrealis taking their land. What do those Palestinians who come to Australia do then ? Aren't they occupying australian territory ? Should Australians perhaps terrorise palestinian enclaves here ?

"KAREN BARLOW: In hot and humid conditions, 400 single male asylum seekers, more than half from Sri Lanka, have been living 16 men to a tent."

I have lived in a 16 man tent, it's not perfect but it's not bad; but usually it was 12 men when there were two petrol heating stoves installed, but as the outside temperature, at night, could drop to around -30°F. they were considered necessary.

Most of what Barlow says is, by her own admission, hearsay and people who hang themselves in front of witnesses are sure of being rescued.

Peirot: By your standards

Deflection again. A leopard never changes it's spots, eh.

By your standards the entire ME should vacate the area because Sunnies persecute Shite & shite persecute Sunnies & Sunnies & Shite's persecute Allawatties & Whabbies hate everybody. The problem is that wherever they go they will take their hate with them to the places they go to because those places aren't Islamic.

With the risk of offending the gentlemen of the artillery, Repeat. Repeat.

Also Peirot you are deflecting off subject again. The subject is "Indefinite detention causes serious harm." If you can't stick to the subject then W#@C# 0## ^0ddy.

Regarding the heat. These people come from a country where it is 40/50 degrees during the day & minus XX at night. They are in a purpose built resort with facilities they never had in the ME at home or in the UNCHR provided Camps. There are plenty of children for them to play with. Admittedly it's not the Hilton which is what they think they should have but is good clean accommodation provided they keep it clean. They would have better accommodation if they didn't keep burning it down. If they kept their documentation instead of throwing it overboard their processing wouldn't take so long.

Andrew,I am so over this crap that I couldn't be bothered reading yet another bleeding heart story aout this Rudd introduced fiasco.

Furthermore, there is a very simple solution, STOP COMING HERE!

Geez, we might even be able to achieve some good FOR OUR PEOPLE with the taxes we would save.

Mr Bartlett. As of this morning,21/2,why have you not responded even to one of the 28 replies? Is this avoidance of intellectual integrity appropriate for a Research Fellow at ANU?

Leslie,

It is possibly because Andrew Bartlett is waiting for a reasoned conversation to emerge from the ruck of off-topic and ad hominem comments (including yours).

Brian of Buderim

Come off it Brian.

These people are supposed to be seeking refuge. That why they claim to be refugees.

Well they've got refuge. Nice safe refuge, where they are housed, fed, given medical treatment, & offered all sorts of facilities, many Ozzies can't afford.

They have just proved they are not refugees, seeking refuge, but bludgers after a cushy life on our welfare. If they wanted to escape from danger they would be singing our praises for taking them away from it, & protecting them.

No need for further deliberations. Any of these people who are complaining, or rioting, have proved that safety is not their objective, so are not refugees, & can be returned to the point they claim is their origin.

QED.

Mr Bartlett. As of this morning,21/2,why have you not responded even to one of the 28 replies?
Leslie,
What do you expect from a moron ?

Gee! There are a lot of OLO morons, more so than the writer of the article.

Leslie: As of this morning,21/2,why have you not responded even to one of the 28 replies?

People like Bartlett, Costello, Pilger, Haigh & Flannery only write the article. It get's picked up by Graham for debate. I doubt whether they have even seen their article posted here. Graham would have got permission to reproduce it here. These people never look at any of the comments. Commenting is just for us to bust our guts on.

Mise: I have lived in a 16 man tent, it's not perfect but it's not bad;

I lived in a 10 man tent with 9 others for 12 months. Wasn't bad. Hot & cold running water right on 4 o'clock every afternoon, just stepped outside for a shower then dryed of naturally at 1/4 past. Yeah, . No TV or Card table or daily paper. The roar of jets taking off & landing every 15 minutes was a bit off putting though. Over all I don't know what these blokes are complaining about.

OH! Well done Banjo. ;-O & YEBIGA could that be a word puzzle for "By Geia" (by the Mother Earth Goddess) or Gaybie.

em cau ca dau, di di suc mau.

Byaj

This is the sort of thing ojnab, kipp and the author of this gibberish supports:

http://pickeringpost.com/story/the-real-face-of-karzai-s-taliban/2780

How are these monsters different from the 'boat people'?

Cohenite
Recently In Melbourne, 11 year Luke Baty was stabbed to death by his father.

Australia's police continue to report that domestic violence absorbs more of their time then all other crimes combined.

3 years ago a father was convicted of murdering 3 of his sons driving his car into a dam and leaving them to drown whilst he away swam to safety.
2 years ago one father threw his child off the top of the west gate bridge.
There are woman abducted by complete strangers, raped, killed and their bodies dumped.

Appears to be a fair amount of sickos here and, I know this might shock you, they are almost never Muslims and almost always Secular Christians - good old quintessential Aussie battlers no less.

Never thought of that did you? The mainstream media narrative, Murdoch dishes out will get you to believe any crap he wants. Before long people find themselves cheering for wars, cheering for detention and humiliation of refugees, justifying torture, imprisoning children, soon all the unemployed are welfare cheats, the increasing number of homeless begging on our streets disgust you. Aged Pensioners are a selfish drain on the economy...Soon everyone's looking in all the wrong places for all the wrong things.

I am firmly of the belief that the western epidemic of mental health problems is directly related to our increasingly unforgiving culture. A few decades ago, we were a country proud of our impeccable human rights record, and our social welfare safety net. Now we are proud of being proud. Now, it is not sufficient for us to just ignore those who are suffering but to add insult to injury, we vilify them and invent malicious motives for their pitiful state.

It is little wonder, when some minor misfortune fractures our comfortable illusion we require so much regular prescription of drugs, to sleep, to cope and are beset by an ever growing number of mental health disorders or we make our partners lives miserable or even murder our own children.

we were a country proud of our impeccable human rights record, and our social welfare safety net. Now we are proud of being proud.
Yebiga,
Yes, what has changed ? The influx of so many who began exploiting this & Australians are now fed up with keeping people who are demanding more & more for nothing but hatred in return. That's not a good way to build relations or indeed build a Nation.

YEBIGA that comment of yours reflects a common and completely incorrect attempt to establish a relativistic equality between Western society and Islamic societies.

It is wrong because in Islamic societies oppression and brutality are systemic.

In Western society there will always be individual nutters and mongrels who do terrible things. Those vile acts like the ones you listed are not lauded by our society.

In Islamic societies the treatment of women like the example I gave and the inculcation of children to the fanaticism of islam is de rigueur, completely normal. Have you seen the pictures of Lebanese and Palestinian children, for example, dressed as martyrs? Did you see the picture during the Sydney muslim riots of the infant holding the sign saying "Behead all those who insult the prophet"?

http://www.news.com.au/national/probe-into-boy-holding-beheading-sign/story-fncynjr2-1226475238920

There is no equivalence between random acts of criminality in the West and the INHERENT barbarism of Islamic cultures.

I just wonder at the inability of advocates of the boat people and islam in general to not be able to see what islam is and what it does. After all it is not as though muslims are backwards in coming forth and demanding they hate the West and want their sharia to be introduced.

I can only assume people like you who ignore this overwhelming evidence are blind, deaf and unfortunately not dumb. Or you really support and prefer islam.

cohenite,
come to think of it I question the validity of Yebiga's "we"

Peirot: Appears to be a fair amount of sickos here and, I know this might shock you, they are almost never Muslims and almost always Secular Christians - good old quintessential Aussie battlers no less.

No, but we don't kill our daughters if she talks to a boy the parents don't approve of, do we?

I suppose it's a matter of perception. Like, If you put a black greyhound in with a clowder of white cats you would see the difference right away.

But if you got a pack of black male Rotwheilers & one black bitch in with them. You wouldn't notice. Would you?

Cohenite
It may surprise you to know I don't support or have a preference for any religion. These imaginary friends are continuously used to manipulate us by politicians of all colours even Christians to justify and incite the worst in us.

Now if Australia and the west, namely the USA, took an even handed approach to all religious extremism, that would be one thing, then I and many critics of our policy towards muslims would at the least see some positive direction and a principled position.

But this is not what happens. It is interesting that you will cite the extremism of Palestinians and the Lebanese but not the extremism of Israel. Why?

Read Exodus chapter 24: - 30 to 33
Here straight out of our bible and the Jewish Torah are the instructions from god himself. The promise of the land to be given to them, the promise that the locals will be one by one defeated and displaced, and god himself ordering that they never enter into treaties with these locals.

Now, not only do the Jewish zionists believe this but Christian fundamentalists in America have been incited to believe this. And it is precisely this powerful coalition of Israeli and Christian fundamentalism which has systemically and deliberately pursued policies to enrage, embitter The Islamic world.

Is this not fanaticism too? I am all for condemning all of fanaticism but the moral equivocation which condemns one party Islam but ignores Israel is repugnant and manifestly naive. How many UN resolutions have Israel violated? How often will our private media report this? The USAs reflex veto in the UN against any sanctions directed at Israel is a standing joke. How often is this reported or known by the average Australian

I entirely agree that much of the Islamic Arab world is very backward, it does not mean however, I need to support the inhumane bullying by forces who wish to exploit their backwardness and powerlessness.

Jayb,

You didn't comment on,

"Most of what Barlow says is, by her own admission, hearsay and people who hang themselves in front of witnesses are sure of being rescued.".

is Mise,
re jayb's comments, that goes without saying so no need for Jayb to comment again. You'd be surprised how caniving & utterly deceitful people become when they're out on a mission to get sympathy.
I see it on just about an hourly basis.

Indi, I don't blame the PEOPLE as much as I blame THE RELIGION they follow.

Now while I admit there are some very decent mulslim people here, the fact remains that the same religion that they follow, also provides the hatred for those who choose to hate us.

For this reason, I say the time has come to ban the religion from our nation, no if's no buts! Because if we choose to turn a blind eye to this ever increasing cancer on society (as we know it) our future generations will wear the brunt of our inaction.

As for the riots at Manis Island, the simple solution has not changed for years, the solution is, stop coming!

"I entirely agree that much of the Islamic Arab world is very backward, it does not mean however, I need to support the inhumane bullying by forces who wish to exploit their backwardness and powerlessness."

Ok, let's get down to this. I agree with this:

http://theclimatescepticsparty.blogspot.com.au/2013/12/the-moderate-muslim.html

Read it YEBIGA and then make a comment about how you see moderation emerging within islam.

In addition to that I would like you to declare whether you think the Western model of a secular, individual rights based democratic society is superior to a religious one.

This point negates your reference to the extremism within the bible or any other Christian or Jewish examples of that because islam does not believe in the separation of church and state and as far as I can tell Israel is not expanding globally; they really are red herrings and distract from a proper discussion of what islam is.

So I'm not going to go down that stupid, pointless path of comparing texts from the bible, Koran or whatever religious source you want to use.

The point here is whether the Western model should accommodate a religious structure which wants to change the Western model.

Cohenite
I actually believe the secular western model as defined by the French enlightenment and inscribed in the US constitution - this is my religion.

Your desire to dismiss Israel from this discussion makes the discussion disingenuous. The question you need to ask is why and how has such a proportion of Islam been so radicalised. There are indeed enlightened examples like turkey who are Islamic but secular and indeed militantly secular.

The question of Israels biblically inspired invasion of the Middle East together with USAs persistent military and monetary interference in most of the region cannot just be dismissed.

It takes two to hate. Unless you subscribe to some theory that Muslims are not actually human, you have to ask how the fanaticism occurs and what if any role other forces may have in contributing to the radicalisation.

If the radicalisation of Islam actually serves the purposes of Israel and USA military and corporate interests - does it not give you pause to consider; perhaps temper the black/white, us good, them evil paradigm?

Rationally, your In a terrible bind. For unless you believe Muslims to be sub human, you must look for the reasons for their extremism. When you look for those reasons and get passed the simplicity of white cultural superiority your left to at the very least confront the role played by both Israel and the USA.

And until such time as our western culture can confront this head on, the world will remain trapped in this regressive hatred. Finally, does it not strike you as just a little strained, that here we are aligned with the most powerful empire in the history of man, its troops stationed in 150 countries, a global media entirely subservient, an intelligence capability which can see a chess game from a space satellite, a global surveillance network.

Once again YEBIGA/Peirot/GAYBIE you are deflecting from the Topic as usual.

Let me remind you. The Topic is, "Indefinite detention causes serious harm." Please, once again, stick to the subject.

Please, fellow Posters, I beg of you, do not indulge him in his game.

And does not indefinite detention of Muslim refugees only further inflame the Muslim world and legitimise anti-Semitic attitudes as are all too apparent here.

Precisely why is this not relevant?

YEBIGA you are a compendium of clichés.

Now we're on to blowback; militant, fundamentalist islam is the West's fault because of past injustices done by the West or its proxy Israel to islam.

What a bunch of BS. This is Pilger crap 101.

If blowback were correct the Vietnamese would be radicalised beyond anything islam has shown so far.

And why haven't the former colonies of the USSR ended up deranged? Or was that oppression ok because it was done under the name of communism?

Islam is the perfect religion; it is dynamically tribalised with no centralised authority which is why when they are not uniting against the West they are in perpetual conflict with themselves.

The West did not create the religious impulse which has its most pure incarnation in islam but has developed by removing religious authority; that is subjugating the religious impulse to secular legal and political frameworks.

The former 'great' churches of Christianity have been subject to secular law for their outrages and Western society is all the better for that.

Islam is resisting this process. It was inevitable that such a 'perfect' religion would enter into conflict with a secular society because that is what religion does.

The religious impulse is part of being human; I don't think it is 'subhuman' but I do think it is a force for chaos and destruction; when a society is governed by the religious impulse it will aggressively seek to spread that belief. That is why islam is in conflict with the West not because the West has treated islam unfairly.

Islam hates the West because of what it IS, not what it has allegedly done.

Until islam can undertake a submission to secular law the conflict will persist. The ability of the West to resist islam is made all the more difficult because of opinions like yours which seem to proliferate in 'elite' circles.

Brian of Buderim. Your cheap diversion of shouting "ad hominem", only highlights the refusal of a Research Fellow at ANU to engage in debate.

We really should find those dreadful people who went out & captured all these nice Muslims, dragged them over here, probably in chains, then locked them up on Manus, or Christmas Islands.

It really is despicable of these people, who like slavers of old, captured these people, & dragged them away from their happy prosperous life in their country of birth.

What we must do is offer these poor captives repatriation to their happy homeland, to show our humanity.

What's that you say? We have offered it to them. They are only locked up because they won't accept our offer. Now I really can't believe that.

Why, if they are free to go home, at any time, are some fools so cranky about our treatment of them. No I can't believe they would be cranky just because some of us don't want more rioters & possible rapists set free in our communities.

Oh & YEBIGA, all this only happens because middle eastern Muslims are such gutless wonders. They vowed to push all the Jews out of Israel into the sea when the Poms left, but found fighting armed men, rather than women & children, was too tough for them. Huge numerical superiority is not enough to make up for cultural inferiority. The term gutless wonders really does fit, like the 4 of them who attacked my son, but ran like the curs they are, when 2 men stopped to assist.

If these Muslims had even half a backbone there would be no Israel. They have truly earned what they have, but don't turn your back on them, that is really dangerous.

It is a pity our humanity prevents us treating this rubbish as it truly deserves.

Once again YEBIGA/Peirot/GAYBIE you are still deflecting from the Topic as usual.

Let me remind you. The Topic is, "Indefinite detention causes serious harm." Please, once again, stick to the subject.

Please, fellow Posters, I beg of you, do not play his game. He does it with every Topic. If we were talking about the ME then he would be talking about Manus Island. He never fails to deflect the Topic to something else. $tu## him.

One might ask why the Tamil refugees/asylum seekers from Sri Lanka are not all seeking asylum among their co-religonists and fellow Tamils in India.
Why make a hazardous boat journey when it is possible to walk, at times and at others to swim, to India?

It's called Adam's Bridge, perhaps there are soldiers there to stop illegal entry?

Cohenite appears to have seriously attempted to refute the validity of the concept of blowback against Israel and the USA - get ready - By arguing that the Vietnamese, who had been at war with the USA also, have not become radically anti- American and on the contrary are quite friendly to Westerners.

Now there appear to me only two possibilities why Cohenite would attempt such a patently hopeless refutation: he/she does not know that the war in vietnam is over and that the USA and Australia amongst others were actually defeated and withdrew their troops back in the1970s and/or he/she is unable to conceptualize the manifest distinction between Israel and the USAs continuing occupation and presence in the Middle East and the USAs non continuing occupation of Vietnam.

To help clarify, think on the one hand, someone has invaded your home and you are able to overwhelm them, they leave and apologise and you kind of, after a time,
go alright let's move on. That's kind of like Vietnam

While on the other hand, in the ME, the invader beats you up and won't leave and continues to beat you up and vilifies you to boot. Now that's kind of Israel and the US in the Middle East.

You see the difference, now? Its a bit like the concept that time heals?

Or think of an abusive relationship - whilst your in the abusive relationship, tempers are understandably frayed and once it is over, after a while, you can be civil to each other. The later is like Vietnam and the former the current Israeli/USA occupation in the Arab world.

I hope this helps.

Why make a hazardous boat journey when it is possible to walk, at times and at others to swim, to India?
is Mise,
Because India is not the agenda, Australia is.

Individual,

That's it in the outer covering of the nutritious kernel of a nut!!

Andrew, as a member of the Refugee Action Committee in Darwin some years ago, helping where I could. Then a few years later just for giggles I thought as a Caring Understanding Northern Territorian that I should go out on patrol with my mates, you know to find these poor frightened, dislocated refuge seekers and just 'surveil' them from a distance.

And to my great surprise I have found very few to be genuine. Yes they do dump their bona fides overboard, ( passports/ID's & anything that can assist in establishing their origins). Which led me to conclusions based on factual evidence. So you might understand the concept of 'first hand - at the scene' type evidence as opposed to the hearsay, censored, government sanctioned, university undergraduate/political party sponsored degree, media flavoured McMurdoch Happy Meals we hear so often?

I don't have a problem with this concept of incarceration of these folk, they have in the majority brought the condition upon themselves. What I do have an issue with is the obscene amounts of taxpayers money currently around $1,000,000 every 5 minutes our government spends in keeping these poor hard done by queue jumpers in their 5 star accommodation.

Yes I also work as a contractor repairing air cons & refrigeration units inside Wickham Point, Astor, Darwin Airport and Coonawarra Detention Centres, so I see the damage and sabotage done by these thankful and grateful people for being rescued from their sinking hulks. The sheer volume of government agency people inside these centres is mind numbing...DIAC, medico's ...everyone but the Pope (sorry Imam's) in attendance, their every whim - including condoms to carry out their perverse belief that women are for procreation and boys are for pleasure rituals ad nauseum

The sooner the truth which still floats around somewhere off Ashmore Reef - (having gone overboard many years ago under Fuhrer Howard) gets to the electorate, then sooner these Irregular Arrivals will be seen for what they are on the main. I pray their salvation is soon, but that will depend on the truth being told by all parties.

Just to mirror Albies Post. I thought I'd posted this before.

From a mate last year.

"Sorry it has taken so long to get back to you. As you may have heard the camp we have been constructing over the past 8 months has been burned to the ground. The riot and subsequent fire occurred on the evening of Friday the 19th since then we have constructed a temporary camp (tent city) for the detainees that are not banged up in the Nauru jail. The accommodation that was burned was of a very high standard and the dining facilities were second to none. These bastards were being fed better than us worker bees and living accommodation better than the locals

Before I came here I was somewhat sympathetic toward refugees believing some were genuine. After the events of the 19th I am of the opinion that the group of male refugees here on Nauru are nothing more than violent arrogant criminals. The Iranians are no better than the Tamals or any other of the ethnic groups that we have here they are all the same . These people are the scum of the earth and should under no circumstance be permitted to live in Australia.

I have attached a before and after snaps of the accommodation buildings only, the rest of the damage is out of the shot."

The Accommodation DID look like a 4 Star Resort. Sorry we can't attach photos.

? Ever spend any time in the Townsville Area in the 70 to 90's Albie.

No YEBIGA, it doesn't help. Are you seriously saying recent actions by the US in Iraq and Afghanistan are the cause let alone a justification for Islamic hostility towards the West?

The antipathy of Islam towards the West is both historical in nature and INHERENT. Islam is a fundamentalist social and political and legal structure which does not permit the separation of church and state; in Islam the church is the state. For that reason there can never be a democracy where islam holds sway. Where democracy is introduced islam aggressively responds.

Islam aggressively forces itself on every other society especially secular ones.

Blowback is ridiculous; it only has credence and currency amongst third rate leftist commentators like Pilger. Chalmers Johnson's theory about US hegemony is junk because you cannot impose democracy; all you can do is oppose those who oppose democracy.

Islam's hostility towards the West is not based on a reaction to Western oppression; it is a Clash of Civilisations but more pertinently a clash of fundamental values.

The difference is your opposition and criticism towards the West is tolerated by the Western system; there is no reciprocity from islam nor can there be without islam losing what defines it. In other words you are hypocritical in siding with islam.

Really,
Well, the UN refugee Agency UNHCR has condemn both the Nauru and PNG detention Centres as inhumane, oppressive conditions, cramped, putrid...

The same agency has stated that the continuing detention of refugees in these condition is and will cause long term mental health issues.

In other words, Australia is running concentration camps and torture camps.

When there are 3.5 Million refugees according to the Red Cross and UNHCR from Iraq and Afghanistan alone there is no good reason to doubt the veracity of their claims.

Rather, one has cause to seriously question the mental stability of large portions of the australian public who have obviously become pathologically paranoid. Indeed, there is strong evidence of a mental health epidemic across Australia. Anti-Depressant prescriptions are being consumed by nearly half the population. Incidents of bi-polar disorder, Attention Deficit disorder, sleeping disorders, drug and alcohol abuse and domestic violence are all on a steep trajectory.

I myself have noticed on this forum, an increasing incapacity to sustain any coherent rational thought. There are posters convinced we are still fighting in Vietnam! More seriously, others are having full on psychotic episodes where dilapidated sheds and cages are to them tropical club med settings

YEBIGA, "Rather, one has cause to seriously question the mental stability of large portions of the australian public who have obviously become pathologically paranoid. Indeed, there is strong evidence of a mental health epidemic across Australia. Anti-Depressant prescriptions are being consumed by nearly half the population. Incidents of bi-polar disorder, Attention Deficit disorder, sleeping disorders, drug and alcohol abuse and domestic violence are all on a steep trajectory."

Gosh!

OLO is indeed fortunate that a superior being such as yourself graces its forums with your esteemed presence, Oh Great One!

Typical Yebiga, go the ad hom, pretend to be morally superior, denigrate the legitimate concerns of others, allege insanity.

Nice.

While at the same time basically betraying your country.

The illegals on Manus are there by choice; they left Indonesia, another Islamic nation.

And this is another dimension to the arrogance of the do-gooders; the inherent insult to Indonesia. According to the do-gooders these Manus islands malcontents are too good for Indonesia, or Indonesia is not good enough for them even though it is also a muslim nation.

Yet the same nation which the do-gooders run down, Australia has to take them; the same Australia which the do-gooders scorn.

It makes no sense; and it makes no sense because it is a leftie pipe-dream. The lefties don't really care about these Manus island illegals; they just want to use them to bash up their own nation which they despise.

Being left is the real mental health issue; one which the rest of sane people have to put up with.

The betrayal of your country is to support policies which go against the interests of Australia's citizens. To implement and support policies which are inhumane, to conduct aggressive wars based on lies, to embroil Australia in deliberate race and religious based enmity. To conduct policies not in our interests but in the interests of a foreign super powers' maniacal evangelical religious based policies.

This super power which has betrayed its own people by subverting its own constitution. It has implemented and attempted to justify the use of torture, it holds people in concentration camps indefinitely, it refuses to provide these people any right to a court of law, it has extended to itself the right to abduct anyone it perceives a threat without due process, even the reporting of such abductions can be called an act of treason.

This once great USA has become so thoroughly malevolent and incompetent economically, diplomatically and morally. Its technological superiority, its unprecedented intelligence and military resources allowed 19 Saudi nationals to hijack 4 planes and level its icons. In Afghanistan it has been incapable of subduing a nation of goat herders. In Iraq it could not find the WMDs it went to war to destroy. There too, in iraq after a decade it cannot control the all pervasive incompetence which has beset it. Its soldiers now mentally deranged excel only in the experimentation of medieval torture, beating women and children. So frustrated they will indiscriminately kill civilians and level cities.

This once great USA no longer governs for its people. Infiltrated and corrupted by lobbyists from the military industrial complex, where companies like Halliburton direct foreign policy. Infiltrated by Zionists, not a single congressman or woman can find a critical word against Israel. Where every would be presidential candidate must fawn themselves and first be endorsed by Israel.

The unvarnished truth is that we here in Australia too, are caught in this incompetence and mendacity. In the age of the Internet the truth will not be erased or the crimes forgotten.

YEBIGA: the UN refugee Agency UNHCR has condemn both the Nauru and PNG detention Centres as inhumane, oppressive conditions, cramped, putrid...

Makes you think what the UN thinks about their own Camps across the World. eh. Besides, if the camps are putrid & unhealthy that would be because the people are untidy & have unhygienic practices. In Vietnam we had the same conditions in less salubrious conditions & we always kept our areas clean & tidy. Looking at any UN camps & the places looks like garbage dumps.

YEBIGA: there is strong evidence of a mental health epidemic across Australia.

That alone makes you wonder why refugees would want to come to a country of maniacs.

YEBIGA: When there are 3.5 Million refugees according to the Red Cross and UNHCR from Iraq and Afghanistan alone there is no good reason to doubt the veracity of their claims.

Notice they all come from Islamic Countries. Does that tell you something about the Religion & now they want to infect the West with the very problems they are running away from, as seen in Europe.

They are running away from Islamic countries with low standards of how they treat people to the West which has a much higher standard. They will only serve to lower the standard of the West to their lower standard.

All except Syria, of course, with it's very high standards treating people.

Jayb
Those 3.5 million Muslim refugees we displaced in Iraq and Afghanistan. We went in there and created Hell.

It amazes me you even bother with your time on this forum as you clearly have no interest whatsoever in the subject. Surely, at a minimum you would read something. At this point I would be satisfied if you were coming back with coherent white supremacy arguments, that would be preferable to the current vacuum.

YEBIGA: Those 3.5 million Muslim refugees we displaced in Iraq and Afghanistan. We went in there and created Hell.

I don't know if you remember, but there were mass migrations coming from the ME long before the West intervened.

Why was that?

I know the West went in to help the people but the exodus still continues. To my mind the West should stay right out of the ME, seal the boarders & let no one out. Let the entire ME sort it's own problems out. Their Religious problems are none of our business. We really didn't start it. We really don't want their Religious problems in the West. We are, as you say, morally, mentally & politically corrupt.

If, as you say, the West is so morally, mentally & politically corrupt then I don't see why anyone in the ME would want to come here. Or any good Muslim would want to stay in the West for that matter. If you are a good Muslim I would have thought that you would want to be well rid of Australia, for the very problems that you say we have, but if you stay it's because you are also part of the problem. Have you grown fat & lazy & used to our M,M, & P lifestyle?

Still this has nothing to do with Detention, does it, Deflection again, poirot.