< Back in the dreamtime there were no irrigators upstream to steal the water, so perhaps, just perhaps, the Murray River's sea mouth had closed over naturally and Ngurunderi walked across a sandbar. Perhaps it was just that time of year, or perhaps too much water had washed into the swamps. >

Consider the evaporation rate from Lake Alexandrina, Lake Albert, The Coorong and Goolwa Channel, all of which amounts to a very sizeable open water area at the mouth of Australia’s largest river. Consider also the movement of water into the groundwater system and the very extensive swamps around these lakes and then evapotranspirated through a very large expanse of natural vegetation.

The flow down the Murray in dry times in pre-European occupation could easily have amounted to less than this output, thus allowing a sandbar to form across the mouth.

It comes as no surprise at all to me that a sandbar could have formed in dry times, long before the flow was reduced by the diversion of waters into irrigation areas.

INTERESTING..anyhow the hunter and naomi river used to be one
till bIAMI divided THEM ..pre western invasion

see they came looking for the river of life..holding the tree of life
[later 1970'S]..the hippies found it on the hunter

BUT I SEE NOW why many think its the murrey
IT is the huge murry joke..[the lost tribe that never left the wilderness.]

naomi in language means RIVER OF LIFE..ya just had to ask the blACKFELLA..he woulda tell ya...

AHHH Men

OUG,

I've got the papers to a bridge across Sydney Harbor if you want to buy it - cheap !

Joe
www.firstsources.info

OH DEAR ..sorry tO BE THE ONE..to tell ya joe
but..their fake..id go back to the fella wot sold em to ya and tell HIM LAND CANT BE OWNED..we are a part of the land..just like your hand is a part of your body..

and that bridge..[where they HUNG THE big eye new years EVE
sits on two chunks of land]..[mate im dutch..WE BUILT OUR OWN LAND]

we dUTCH..[ONE FOOT ON THE WATER/one on the land..first found these lands way back..we called IT NEW HOLLAND..but then we met george warrumpies mob..AND GOT MESSED UP REAL BAD..SO THey run away..stopped briefly..aND ABDUCTED MY MOB DOING CERIMONY..THEN RAN AWAY HGOME..and named melville island 'van..die..mens'/land[of the peoples land]

AND FORGOT WHAT WE TAUGHT THEM[JANSON]..HIM OF THE BOOK/LUTHER

but then swedenbERG WENT..and translated the bible[and captain cook's Illuminati pals..STOLE THE LAST 3 CHAPTERS..[THAT explained these times[PRESENT/TIME]..AND went to new holland..TO DECLARE IT TERROR NULLIOUS..by banks leaving behind small pox virus

BANKS then returned home and talked up big..the terra nulios thing..thinking he had killed OFF THE AB'ORIGONALS LIKE THEY DUN WITH NEW FOUND LAND AND THE AZTECS....but we never took the blankets he left behind

THUS WE DIDNT DIE
yet the lie goes on that land can be 'owened'..THE land mother owns us..[biami gave us life..but we talked of that before[ps the wikiseed/wIKIGELD [TREE OF LIFE]..was ripped up like the murry god.. AND THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE..[oF good and bad]

Loudmouth, OUG

Can you tell me what the Yaraldi name for Lake Alexandrina was?

I have heard that the River was called Millewa or Tongala. Is this correct? Which is the Yaraldi word for the river?

And thanks,

So you're Dutch AND Aboriginal, OUG ?

When one looks on Google Maps at the region around the Murray Mouth and right down to the South-East, what leaps out at you are the successive sand-ridges running parallel to the present coast-line, for hundreds of miles, in fact almost right up to the Mallee.

So it seems quite likely that five, ten, thirty, fifty thousand years ago, maybe millions of years ago, a process of building-up of those ridges has been going on continually. Archaeologists would find the earlier ridges rich in human artifacts and remains, and could probably date the first arrivals of Ngarrindjeri and Meintangk and Booandik - or whoever came before them, when the ridges were exposed to the sea, especially up closer to the Murray. And the Murray has been a far bigger river in the past as well, back in 'Mungo times' when eastern Australia was much lusher.

Beautiful country !

Joe

Jennifer,

Thanks for a fascinating article. I'm certainly no expert on Ngarrindjeri place-names - the Berndts recorded many hundreds of names, the vast majority of which were lake-side or river-side or coastal camp sites. I suspect that the various clans or extended families, within the dialect groups, within the Ngarrindjeri, which occupied the lands around Lake Alexandrina would have had their own names for the waters near their lands, but I don't know if there was ever a single name for Lake Alexandrina.

Groups further up the Murray similarly may have had their own names for the reaches that they controlled, but there may not have been a single name for the River. Outsider groups may have had their own names for both. Similarly, with Lake Albert.

By far the most comprehensive work on all this would, of course, be Ronald and Catherine Berndts' 'A World That Was'. I hope that Melbourne University Press can one day have the courage to reprint it.

As well, Philip Clark has done some wonderful work on this subject.

Regards,

Joe

Joe,

According to the geologists there are at least six generations of late Pleistocene dune systems in the area corresponding to a period when the climate was drier and colder and windier.

The Pleistocene ended about 10,000 years ago when the Holocene period started.

By about 7,000 years ago sea levels had already risen about 130 metres, the Murray River was being pushed back and the region now known as Lake Alexandrina was a shallow embayment.

Since this time sea levels have fallen about 2 metres and a sand peninsula formed across what was the embayment creating Lake Alexandrina. The sand peninsula was probably in place by 2-3,000 years ago.

So maybe Ngurunderi made his epic voyage down the river about then?

Jennifer,

Stories don't have to be consistent or logical, and heroes had all sorts of magical powers anyway, so it would have been no trouble for Ngurunderi to fly, swim or levitate across the Murray Mouth.

Many groups living away from the mouth may not have been aware that there was one, or that it was a violent and dangerous place at the change of tides - the meeting of the waters, given two tides each day and a narrow mouth, could have been well up the Lake (when the river was low) or well out to sea (when it was in flood). But that would have been no trouble to an ancestral hero.

Love your work !

Joe

i agree with joe jenn..great work

anyhow joe..you too are @B-origonal..[YOUR alpha/beta-origonal]

my origonals ..i have outlined..we are all origonal from somewhere
thaTS why we are bound to the location..of our birth tree.

like i said..im origonal dutch..[my totum duty is to the head of the deer/[i only own the duty to the head]..see in a time of previous judgment..the carnivors needed meat..my ancestors gave them his body..but left THE HEAD..free..in the wilderNESS.

AT THE SECOND JUDGMENT..they came..for judgment
this time..they were so hungry..they transmutated even ONE OF THE HORNS..[i hold as totum duty also the remaining horn of issiah]..ITS A single golden horn of plenty[transmuting/even horn/hoof..into food by secret process involving..SPIRIT AETHER/fire/water..earth and wiND.]

LOt..we are aSA WIND..

thing is..we are alL original..from somewhere
my parents from nederland..their parents new holland..wilderness..and [van die mens island]..also called groot island and melville..there are so many name changes.

SO I WAS ASSISTED..the past is past'
[yet my computer issues are compounding today]

we are all origonal..FROM SOME*PLACE
WE..[some]..come knowning the man..[alpha..other kmowing the beta]

so much we need to sort out..but too many secrets
some secrets..is birth place..of eve..is under the state stone..in Canberra..birth place..of adam..is in a deep hole/sink..just off victoria...

i can only reveal what was revealed to me
SKIN..IS KEY..totum=key..mens/WOMANS BUSINESS IS key..place of birth is key..IT ALL BEGIND WITH KNOwing who is your mother[please note the father..is one[biami]..but think.

why does A WOMAN..lets call her wadjima..go into a mans house
under a mans nAME..how on earth can a woman wafjma..give birth of her flesh..to a biami

thats how men hide the fact of war
kill the man.leader/jail/him..then make woman change her name to hide the crime..[we need return patriarchy into histry[ie matriarchy..your name the same name as she who created you]..we need return to moon time..EACH MONTH=A NEW YEAR..cause so many abuses are via 999 year lease

so much i waited to tell..but my spearing ..MADE THEM FRIGHTEND

I hate TALKING OF IT..BECAUSE.,.of just this silence
wHAT/..im delusional..[its aNYMORE unbelievable]..than a darn murry cod swimming upriver/

WHAT IF I WAS a blackfella..in ochre*..NOW YA BELIEVE/

ok believe this
http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/rn/podcast/2014/01/trh_20140125.mp3

this explains WHY YA CANT BELIEVE
http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/rn/podcast/2014/02/trh_20140208.mp3

Titles i expect to hear next

http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/rn/podcast/2014/01/trh_20140104.mp3

http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/rn/podcast/2013/12/trh_20131228.mp3

no this one..i think..'Believers and doubters
http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/rn/podcast/2013/12/trh_20131214.mp3

oh well interesting topic
im sorry to have bothered you

found a new place to talk
https://community.ed.ted.com/teded/topics/promise_to_pay_gods_money_not_fiat_dont_end_the_coin_age

Hi OG,

Pride of place in my lounge is a brilliant painting by Jake Stengel of Ngurunderi pursuing the Murray cod down the river - if he ever wants it for an exhibition of his extensive and beautiful work, I'd be happy to lend it.

Origin myths such as this one mark out territory and how it was distributed, who has the authority over it, expressed or mediated in this case through 'ngatjis' or totems. It's a tragedy that the Hindmarsh Island scam cut right across that fundamental account, denied its centrality, and as a consequence, has damaged any understanding of genuine perceptions of Ngarrindjeri origins.

But so often rank opportunism distorts the truth, it cripples it, corrupts it. But as one brave woman put it, 'Reconciliation begins with the truth.' And so much else does too. So much harm is done by lies, nothing can move forward, so much damage has to be somehow UNDONE before truth can be restored as a foundation, and people can move forward.

Joe

-JOE..my favourite 'print'..IS WARATAh..and the blind hunter
http://img.antiquesreporter.com.au/071127BOAD/752.jpg

mine is moth eaten..plus water stained..
but i love it

I also have cummins emu dancing..its hard to chose between them
[one i bought FOR 2 dollars..the other 200..but the images are priceless.

ANYHOW..i spent some time touching up the mural at the tent embassy
its a prophecy..GEORGE WARRUMPI VISITED..and TOUCHED UP HIS TOTUM..[crocodile]..on the mural..it seems clear..and yet..it sits there ignored.

actually i love the totum drawn by nevill bonner/s grandson
true creation totums..there is so much wisdom..if ONLY ..

http://www.australianbiography.gov.au/subjects/perkins/interview11.html

CHARLES perkins
Yes, well we've got to overcome that embarrassment bridge, because the Aborigines feel one way, and white people feel the other. White people feel, well, why should we have any part of that, anyhow. It's a waste of time, it doesn't have to do with us. And Aborigines are thinking, well, white people don't want to have any part of it, you know. So there's a mixture of feelings in all of that, but you know, the essential element is we've got to grasp that nettle of, you know, a number of things.

One, we've got to come together. One, white people have got to recognise this was Aboriginal land before they came here. They haven't been here that long. There's been all of these things that have happened. Accept the history of this country. Then it makes it easy for us to come together, but if we don't accept the history of Australia, we don't come together to be able to work out an arrangement in terms of, you know, the merging of cultures, and Aboriginal performances, and white people being part of it ... Well,

http://www.goddessrealm.com/animal-totems/australian-animal-totems

http://www.clc.org.au/articles/info/aboriginal-kinship
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Aboriginal_kinship