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The Forum > Article Comments > Just how science-minded are we? > Comments

Just how science-minded are we? : Comments

By Alanta Colley, published 15/1/2014

In 2006-07 Australians made a total of 589,796 Medicare rebate claims for acupuncture performed by medical practitioners, yet acupuncture doesn't work.

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if acupuncture is such a sham, why is Harvard University studying its efficacy? Or are they so easily bamboozled and hoodwinked?

Acupuncture works for me, it relieves the pain of arthritis on the base of my left thumb, but it works much more slowly on a sprained shoulder, but it works nonetheless. And the folks who set it up at the cathedral church wellness centre here in the Philippines I find quite utterly trustworthy and not easily duped.

"There are 2 ways of being fooled:
one is to believe things that are not true;
the other is to refuse to believe things that are true."

-Soren Kierkegaard
Posted by SHRODE, Wednesday, 15 January 2014 9:19:43 AM
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...An enjoyable article...A Mothers remedy for blocked salivary glands...Gargle lemon juice...It works but why?
Posted by diver dan, Wednesday, 15 January 2014 9:35:53 AM
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The sort of credulous rubbish put forward by SHRODE is an example of the very basis of the so-called 'proof' offered by the proponents of non scientifically ratified medicine - otherwise known as alternate medicine. Cherry picked results are only one of any number of false indicators put forward by the gullible proponents of modern witch doctor medicine, although an inability to distinguish between causal outcomes and contingent outcomes is a mandatory requirement across the board. Regretfully, this requirement is readily available - largely due I believe to an education system that teaches by rote rather than by inculcating a capacity to think rationally in children from an early age. Also regretfully, this educational deficiency under the present federal government will be deliberately enhanced rather than addressed as the pernicious issue that it is.
Posted by GYM-FISH, Wednesday, 15 January 2014 9:57:07 AM
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I have no love for the present federal government, but there is hope.

I hope that, as they rush to strip away everything that is not to their liking and/or is superfluous, that they identify using tax money to subsidise alternative health care (non-care? careless?) and simply rule it out, in all of its forms and by whatever name.

Evidence based health care is justifiable, quackery is not.

Come on, Joe Hockey. Add this to your list and apply the wrecker's ball immediately.
Posted by JohnBennetts, Wednesday, 15 January 2014 10:52:51 AM
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Yes we all have to worship at the altar of the new religion or the church of scientific materialism.
The ruling/reigning dogma being - scientists have said it therefore it must be true.
Yes science has created many useful techologies which have obviously helped humans to survive and prosper.
But what are its baneful limitations?
This reference describes many of them.
http://www.aboutadidam.org/lesser_alternatives/scientific_materialism/index.html
Modern Western medicine is good for emergency crisis intervention, patching people up who have been injured and even smashed up, and for its sophisticated diagnostic tools
Apart from that much of its drugs and surgery approach to disease is essentially a form of barbarism which eliminates psychological and emotional factors, and of course Consciousness with a capital C.
What is needed is a systems approach to healing and well-being based on the understanding that the body-mind-complex is first and foremost an ENERGETIC system. A systems approach that uses the best of mostly natural modalities of healing - nutrition, Ayurveda, Traditional Chines Medicine including herbs Chi-Kung (even Feng-Shui), homeopathy, hatha yoga and pranayama, and various kinds of massage, especially those that recognize and take into account the patterns or flows of Chi or Prana throughout the body what Ted Kaptchuk called The Web That Has No Weaver.

It also dis-empowers or infantilizes people who have been taught to give "god"-like powers to the men in white coats (our contemporary witch-doctor-priests). It disempowers people to even take responsibility for what they put in the mouths, or to make the necessary "life-style" changes if they wish to regain their health.
Bodily we are the product of both what we put in our mouths, the way we breathe, our posture, and our mostly unconscious "life-style" habits or patterns, ALL of which effect and obstruct the subtle energies of the body-mind-complex.
Much/most dis-ease conditions (both chronic and acute) are caused by what people put in their mouths on a long term basis - all of those packets/cans/bottles of toxic chemicals that are sold as "foods"
Speaking of nutrition, up until recently the topic of nutrition was hardly even mentioned in most medical schools.
Posted by Daffy Duck, Wednesday, 15 January 2014 11:00:12 AM
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"Speaking of nutrition, up until recently the topic of nutrition was hardly even mentioned in most medical schools."
Rubbish!
It has always been covered well and truly.
Where did you get that information?
I work in the health industry, so I have some idea, how about you?

Surely if medically trained doctors also choose to use 'alternative therapies' that is a good thing?
Acupuncture does work for some people obviously, otherwise the practice would have been dropped long ago. It did work for me.

The medical practitioners of today are taught to view the holistic care of patients, looking at both body and mind, as well as preventative medicine.
If your current doctor does not practice this way, then swap doctors!
Posted by Suseonline, Wednesday, 15 January 2014 11:13:54 AM
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This reference describes how one Western trained (indoctrinated) MD quickly learned that the kind of medicine he was taught in medical school didnt really work. And how he began to investigate various kinds of energetic healing modalities including bach flower remedies, homeopathy,ayurveda, pramayama or conscious breathing, massage, diet and detoxification etc
http://radicalhealing.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/RH_Cover_and_Intro.pdf

The last section of his Radical Healing book, titled Guide to the Further Study of Holistic Medicine is an education in itself.

And why not check out the list of books featured here, all of which operate on the basis of a more subtle epistemology than that of the Western drugs and surgery model, which reduces human beings to a pile of unconscious molecules or a slab of meat on an operating table.
http://www.northatlanticbooks.com/category/health/chinesemed

Every book published by North Atlantic advocates a completely different epistemology than that of the now world-dominant paradigm of scientific materialism.
Posted by Daffy Duck, Wednesday, 15 January 2014 12:19:59 PM
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It is well-known that some acupuncturists are better than others, with large variance. A short technical/western course is not enough to master the art: generally, those who studied acupuncture for years in China do better.

The fact that patients knew not the difference between real needles and sham needles, indicates that they had no experience with real acupuncture because otherwise they could clearly see the needles protruding and the sham ones missing, as well as feel the real needles for half an hour or so while they're in. Stinging one momentarily with a needle is not acupuncture.

In any case, even if acupuncture is just a placebo, any method that prevents the "drugs and surgery barbarism" mentioned by Daffy, is welcome. The wise may rather stay away from doctors altogether without requiring and paying for placebos.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Wednesday, 15 January 2014 12:38:23 PM
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Acupuncture certainly works on my dodgey knee. The author doesn't seem to realise that many things happen and work without understanding the reasons. The cart is most probably before the horse in the article. It would seem likely that acupuncture would have been discovered by some serendipitous good fortune and the reasons for it's efficacy not understood. The ancient chinese with the primitive medical knowledge of centuries ago could only explain it in terms of meridians and chi. Doesn't mean it is only a placebo just because nobody has discovered why just yet.
Posted by Croc099, Wednesday, 15 January 2014 1:18:52 PM
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With an "About the Author" description including:

"She's dug latrines, inspected mosquito nets, and surprised men's meetings with family planning education. She is simultaneously easily disgruntled and incurably optimistic."

Oh Crocodile Hunter of isolated medicine, of scatter-gun viewpoints

- do stay in Africa please.
Posted by plantagenet, Wednesday, 15 January 2014 1:52:30 PM
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I have never tried acupuncture, but it seems to me the evidence that it is “sham medicine” is not conclusive:

SHRODE’s mention of Harvard led me to this link:
http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/acupuncture-is-worth-a-try-for-chronic-pain-201304016042

I almost never agree with Daffy, but on this I think s/he has a point. To dismiss something a priori as unscientific on the basis that it’s not consistent with conventional medical knowledge is not science, it’s scientism.

The appropriate scientific response is to experiment to see whether it does in fact work, then investigate why. Many of the studies into the effectiveness of acupuncture show its does work for some people, even allowing for placebo effects. There is no necessary reason to accept traditional explanations about qi as to how it works; according to the Harvard Medical School, western scientists tend to talk in terms of “affecting neurotransmitters, hormone levels, or the immune system”.

It could be the 90%+ of traditional medicines are sham; the other 10% will be useful. Let’s use science to establish which ones are and which one’s aren’t.
Posted by Rhian, Wednesday, 15 January 2014 3:07:38 PM
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Thank you oh rational Alanta. The loopy things we believe in - alternative medicine, global worming, Keynesian macroeconomics, Marxism, witch-doctors and the power of sneering ad hominem in argument - certainly get in the way of efficient use of our resources.

Never mind. Folly is inherent in people; if you can figure out how to profit from it, fools can pay for your children's private schools and a very big house for you.
Posted by ChrisPer, Wednesday, 15 January 2014 3:10:42 PM
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I see very little evidence of any difference between the attitude of people in Africa or Australia to science. Basically if science seems to support your preconceived ideas then it is wonderful, but if it doesn't you either ignore, abuse or misquote the scientists. In the example of Mary in the article they were happy to accept the science when they thought she was cured, but when it became clear that she was not, neither she nor they were not prepared to change their view point because it was in conflict with their deeply held beliefs. Incidentally when I was in Kenya many years ago, the biggest problem was getting to the doctor in the first place.

In Australia the most prominent example of this problem relates to the issue of human induced climate change where opinions are heavily biased along political lines rather than the evidence.
Posted by warmair, Wednesday, 15 January 2014 4:19:46 PM
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Rhian, I prefer my analysis and confirmation up front, otherwise I am a guinea-pig in somebody's trial (or guessing game).

I also very much prefer that my tax dollars not be spent on things that defy logical explanation, such as anything to do with religion and all forms of shamanism, which are entirely private pursuits in my book.
Posted by JohnBennetts, Wednesday, 15 January 2014 4:24:23 PM
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JohnBennetts
Yes, I see your point. I think the thing about acupuncture is that it maybe does have a rational explanation. It’s not so obviously loopy as, say, homeopathy.

Often we grope towards a proper understanding of cause and effect through trial and error. In 18th century Britain, it was believed that bad odours caused disease, and people responded by installing better sewage and waste removal systems. The theory was wrong, but the solution was right.

If the Chinese believe that sticking needles in people helps to manage pain then the phenomenon is worth investigating, even if we don’t know how it might work, and can’t accept the “theory” of qi.

I agree that the taxpayer should not subsidise unproven methods, though.
Posted by Rhian, Wednesday, 15 January 2014 4:51:47 PM
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Yes, "bad odours".

a.k.a. Malaria, a disease and subject in which I have some interest.
Posted by JohnBennetts, Wednesday, 15 January 2014 5:21:54 PM
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I’m not sure if we all get the same ads, but there is a certain irony to this article hosting ads spruiking “the secret to stay [sic] asleep all night … a revolutionary secret to help you sleep” and “5 veggies that kill stomach fat”.

Australia’s answer to the man on the bus.
Posted by Rhian, Wednesday, 15 January 2014 6:17:51 PM
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So now, are we supposed to assume that all Chinese herbs are a 'sham'? I mean, we don't know how they work either, do we? (Can the thousands of years of Chinese 'research' involved really only amount to 'placebo-effect'?)

How about acetyl salicylic acid; how does it work to relieve headache, or reduce the potential for stroke, or act as a blood-thinner? Yet we have no trouble taking it (prescribed or otherwise) - see Aspirin.

Maybe we in the West are not so scientifically 'smart' as we would like to think we are - choosing to 'use' some medications while we really have no idea how, or why, they 'work', whilst rejecting the use of others, in spite of their having demonstrated some usefulness, because we are simply too 'baffled' as to how they can possibly be efficacious.

We use the blood of horse-shoe crabs to test donated human blood for the presence of bacteria or whatever, but do we know how those clever little crabs have developed this magical capability? Or, why or how it works?

As for acupuncture: I remember seeing footage of a visit by medical professionals from Westmead Hospital to a Chinese hospital, where the visitors were privileged to view an intrusive surgery performed on a female Chinese patient whose only anesthetic was per acupuncture. The patient remained conscious through the whole operation and confirmed throughout a complete absence of pain. Voodoo, or 'placebo', self-delusion, maybe hypnosis, or pure 'belief'? You tell me.

Maybe not everything is explicable; maybe 'we' should at times have some 'belief'.
(As for Western medicine - I wonder how the inquiry into Lipitor is going.)
Posted by Saltpetre, Friday, 17 January 2014 1:48:02 AM
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