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The Forum > Article Comments > We're Christian, and we're here to help > Comments

We're Christian, and we're here to help : Comments

By Rowan Forster, published 25/12/2013

What do The Red Cross, Amnesty International, Opportunity International, Habitat for Humanity...have in common.

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They throw parties to raise money to throw parties to raise money which mostly gets spent on photo opportunities to raise money to send the CEO's on First Class planes fares to stay in 5 Star hotels to have a photo opportunity tho show them distributing a few paltry dollars to some specially picked group so it will look like they are providing help for the needy & that will get them more money to throw parties to raise money. Scrimple.

World's Greatest Scam. The only people benefiting from these schemes are the top echelon of these Charities & they're living high off your hog.

Where are all the Children saved with the" Save The Children Campaign." Out there blowing up our soldiers & their own countrymen & racing around hijacking ships. That's where they are. Thanks a lot.
Posted by Jayb, Wednesday, 25 December 2013 5:37:18 PM
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Most organizations founded in the West between, say, 1700 and 1950 have explicitly or implicitly Christian origins, simply because most of the people in the West at that time had, or claimed to have, Christian beliefs. You will find similar organisations operating in predominantly Muslim nations under the aegis of Islam, and in Hindu and Buddhist nations under the aegis of their respective religions. But if you look at the total amount of benefits paid to the poor and sick, payments made from tax revenue by modern secular states outweigh charity-based benefits by many hundred to one.

Last financial year the Australian government spent $137 billion on welfare; enough to make charity spending utterly insignificant by comparison. And it was motivated by a genuine public concern for health, happiness and human rights, not a holy terror of burning in hell.
Posted by Jon J, Wednesday, 25 December 2013 6:44:06 PM
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One way the atheists, secularist, humanists and sceptics work is to bring advances through the political system. I personally spend my savings on very direct charity efforts and my spare time on advocating beneficial change.

We have public hospitals, public education, public water and sewerage systems, vaccination systems and progressive tax systems etc., because secular people fought religious influences to bring those benefits into existence.

What advance in the human condition did religion ever not condemn?

Remember, smallpox vaccination was thwarting god's will.
Recall also that it was the religious support of the divine right of those in power that kept the general populace in servitude for centuries.

I suggest the author of the is article should read-up on Epicurus and Lucretius. Born in 341 BC Epicurus advocated that bringing pleasure to everyone in society in this life was far better that advocating living in fear of superstition.

Lucretius retrieved the views of Epicurus from the efforts of the early monotheist religions to bury those beliefs and, in doing so, laid the foundations for the Enlightenment and the benefits of the age of science.

In the last few years the RC church has opposed even AIDS prevention methods and has denied that young children have the right to know what cultural pressures influence their peers. They even appealed a decision as far as the Canadian Supreme Court when Quebec, Canada, introduced a compulsory course, Religions and Ethics, which had that aim. Fortunately the church lost. We could benefit from such a course in Australia rather than waste money on proselytising, largely useless, chaplains.

If you think the Christian church is charitable read what they did to the early advocates of a sun centred system particularly if the advocates were heretics (clear thinkers). After Bruno was sentenced to death they drove a "nail though his cheeks and tongue to shut him up on his ride to the stake. After the fire they smashed his bones to pieces.

What nice people the religious were when they wielded power!
Posted by Foyle, Wednesday, 25 December 2013 7:05:40 PM
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Jon J,
How much of the state welfare budget is administered by Christian organisations? I don't know exactly but I'd bet the majority of "private" service providers are Christian organisations.

Jayb,
Islam is the reason we need to stand up and defend our societies, Judeo Christianity is the reason we can't
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Wednesday, 25 December 2013 8:42:00 PM
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Gee Rowan, you didn't look very far to find a non-Christian based aid organisation did you?
I found 2 big ones straight away:
AusAID:
The Australian Agency for International Development (AusAID) is an Australian Government agency within the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade.

CARE Australia:
The largest non-political non-religious overseas aid organisation in Australia, providing humanitarian assistance across the globe.

Just because one religion or another uses their substantial financial clout to fund their aid agencies does not mean that only Christians work for them either.

Being Christian does not make one person any more morally superior than anyone else.

I also severely dislike those who blow their own trumpet.
It immediately brings to mind all those holier than thou Priests who spent Sundays bringing the morally superior word to the congregations at Mass, while all the while abusing kids during the week...
Posted by Suseonline, Wednesday, 25 December 2013 11:20:42 PM
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"In summary, there would be none of the innumerable benefits and blessings that have flowed and continue to flow from the vastly transformative influence of the Bethlehem baby, who grew up to change the course of human history in ways beyond counting."

With all respect and adoration to the Bethlehem baby, it is either arrogance or ignorance to attribute all charity to him. Had it never existed before?

It is also arrogant or ignorant to attempt dividing the world into "Christians" and "atheists" - unless you refer to the true definition of a Christian:
A Christian is s/he who is willing to lay themselves on the cross (or its equivalent, as required) for the good of all others.

Sevashrama is an example of a non-Christian charity: http://www.rkmkankhal.org
Posted by Yuyutsu, Wednesday, 25 December 2013 11:37:20 PM
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"Lucretius retrieved the views of Epicurus from the efforts of the early monotheist religions to bury those beliefs and, in doing so, laid the foundations for the Enlightenment and the benefits of the age of science".

Trying to stay under the word limit I confused the story when I wrote the above. Lucretius wrote in the first century BC praising the beliefs of Epicurus.

The church buried their writings and beliefs for 1500 years. It was the retrieval and distribution of those writings by others in the fourteen hundreds which laid the foundations for The Enlightenment and the great benefits of the Age of Science. The whole story is in The Swerve.
Posted by Foyle, Thursday, 26 December 2013 6:08:53 AM
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The world seems suddenly to be listening..

for all the right reasons, and the popular attraction..has high-profile atheists concerned.

“He’s obviously a nice man,..therefore a dangerous man,”..leading evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins..told fellow atheist Bill Maher in late October...

“We don’t want nice men in the Vatican.”

does dorkins speak for thee?
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6152#178808
Posted by one under god, Thursday, 26 December 2013 7:04:32 AM
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@Jay: "How much of the state welfare budget is administered by Christian organisations?"

Why does that matter? The funds are provided by a secular government for secular purposes. The fact that it sometimes chooses to use openly religious organisations reflects the fact that these were the organisations that happened to be around at the time, but it doesn't indicate any special virtue on their part. They're simply being paid to do a job. Which they often don't do very well, incidentally:

http://www.abc.net.au/religion/articles/2011/03/25/3174200.htm

http://www.religiouscriticism.com/christianity/why-the-salvation-army-doesnt-deserve-your-money/
Posted by Jon J, Thursday, 26 December 2013 9:39:13 AM
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Power always corrupts those who have or yield it. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, not just in the case of hitler, but also in the case of the agents of all state religions. Remembering that for many centuries the "catholic" church WAS effectively the state.

The roots of christian fascism and 1700 years of applied christian violence.
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~spanmod/mural/panel13.html
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~spanmod/mural/panel21.html
http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm
Remember that many right wing "catholics" were fully supportive of Hitler because he was prepared to do something about the centuries long "problem" of the Jews. And to rid the German body-politic of communists, socialists, free-thinkers, bohemians and other assorted "deviants".
Posted by Daffy Duck, Thursday, 26 December 2013 10:22:20 AM
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yep the early Christian missionaries that served the indigeneous for next to nothing. Now its one big gravy train mainly for the secularist. Oh but they said 'sorry'!
Posted by runner, Thursday, 26 December 2013 10:31:31 AM
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Just wish that those who talk about charity and helping would translate the talk into action. Instead of having all of the bright ideas, then saying that others can do it and presumably out of 'others' taxes too.

There are a few things that have always struck me about community work, be that helping in the school tuck shop, mucking in to help victims of disasters, or being there for the old with a cup of tea and an hour to listen. These are:

-firstly, you always meet the same people and likely you will grow old helping with many of the same people and their children, now adult, helping alongside you;

-secondly, they are almost always members of the flock of local churches; and

- their motivation is simple and forthright, to provide service to the community.

While I have been a critic of the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church for example, it is true as I look around me that the same church does a lot of good helping the old, where so often the seniors' own relatives have found something more pressing to do.

Regarding the Evangelicals, I was very impressed by a young pastor who along with tradies and laborers from his congregation, gave building supplies and their labour during and for long after the Brisbane floods. No mention of faith, and they were constantly on the front foot offering and doing without the flood victims having to ask.
Posted by onthebeach, Thursday, 26 December 2013 12:57:09 PM
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Why does the author of this article need to tell us these organisations are founded on Christian principles? Surely it is the giving that is the most important thing and not the principles behind it. If you are dying of thirst you don’t really care why someone gives you water.

What the author seems to be implying is that if it was not for the existence of Christian charities there would be a great deal more suffering in the world. That may well be true but surely the aim is to alleviate suffering and leave it at that. Why do we need to know that those who do this are Christians? Why do they need to advertise with Christian symbols and slogans whenever they set up a soup kitchen or humanitarian aid station? Why do people like the author need to convince us that all the good they do is somehow linked to being Christian? That Christians are basically the good guys and everyone else is a ‘Johnny-come-lately’ whose motivation must have its origins connected in some way to basic Christian beliefs.

Why would you need to advertise you are Christian if your sole motivation was to alleviate hardship? Obviously they are trying to convince themselves that they are the good guys. Christians do the good things so they must be the good people and everyone else is a cold-hearted atheist. You would only need to try and convince yourself of this if in fact you had doubts about whether Christians were the sole custodians of concern for their fellow men. If that were not true then they may be some other fundamental delusions that Christians have about themselves that could cause you a great deal of emotional unrest.

Christians may well have commandeered the welfare sector but they need to. They need to convince themselves that only followers of Jesus are able to reach out to others.
Posted by phanto, Thursday, 26 December 2013 2:53:43 PM
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Fred Hollows was an atheist, and a committed communist.

Fred had the basic compassion to just help and not think he could tell others how to live.

Runner's precious missionaries run far short of that ideal. Conversion was a driving ambition. There are many "christian" schools and hospitals and yes temples that were built by others but were rebadged in order to control and take credit for these activities.

As Onthebeach and others observe, there are christians that just get on with it. If Rowan Forster wants to start giving "christianity" the credit over the clear humanity of the individual founders he mentions, he will need to find excuses for the rest. These people were exceptional, their christianity was incidental.

Rusty
Posted by Rusty Catheter, Thursday, 26 December 2013 3:24:05 PM
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It is good that Fred Hollows is mentioned.

Rather than the bun fight between fundamentalists on either side there is tolerance. I would likely accept the basic tenets of all religions, at least the ones that market the good of the faith. But then I would do the same for atheists proposing tenets for a good life.

Supporting one source of tenets for a good life is a bit short-sighted since none is any better than the other, although the Christian tradition in the form we have re-modelled it to suit ourselves seems fine and I will not argue with it for the sake of arguing.

We should be opposing fundamentalism and authoritarians, those who seek to control us and limit our lives for no good purpose. We have to accept some limitations for society to work, but let those be few and absolutely necessary.

From what I have seen in recent years we have more to fear from Statists and 'Progressives' than anyone else, for they are continually making inroads on nipping away individual freedom, cookie-cutter piece by piece. But always for 'good' reasons of course.
Posted by onthebeach, Thursday, 26 December 2013 4:06:42 PM
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Rusty Catheter is right about the wonderful Fred Hollows.

Even though he had a large young family, and was diagnosed with a terminal disease, he continued to work with 3rd world communities to give some of tbem the gift of sight.

He never charged fees to these poor people, and if not for Fred, these people eould have gone blind in most cases.

I agree there are also many wonderful Christian based aid organisations who give freely of their time and resources, and I have no problem with who runs these help organisations, as long as they don't expect to take anyone's 'soul' in return!
Posted by Suseonline, Thursday, 26 December 2013 4:39:57 PM
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I'm always amused to read the militant atheist contributions to these threads. So keen are they to avoid the fact that Christianity had made a huge contribution to western societies being more humane than anything that has come before that they run the line that all societies are equally humane.

"We are all heading in the same direction, and these things would have happened without Christ," runs the argument.

So where is the proof of this? I know where the counter-proof is. Millions bypass non-Christian societies to seek refuge in Christian ones. There is no traffic in the other direction.
Posted by GrahamY, Thursday, 26 December 2013 10:21:30 PM
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What is a 'Christian society', Graham? Do you mean fundamentalist religious communities like the Amish or the Brethren? Because I don't see millions of people lining up to join those. What I DO see is people queuing to get to the enlightened secular West, where they know they can believe anything or nothing and not be persecuted for it. All the positives of Christianity stem from the fact that it has unsuccessfully struggled against science for five hundred years, and suffered in the process. Yes, it's so much easier to live with -- now that it's been beaten to a pulp. Those who were around in its prime didn't find it quite so accommodating.
Posted by Jon J, Friday, 27 December 2013 6:05:05 AM
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GrahamY – A Christian society and a humane society are not the same thing. It is all about motivation.

When Christians act charitably it is because they follow the teachings of Christianity. You cannot just follow some of the teachings of Christianity – you have take on board the whole package. If you want the benefits that being a Christian brings then you must be prepared to do what Jesus wants you to do. One of those benefits may be everlasting bliss in heaven but you cannot get that if you do not help out those less fortunate than yourself. Another benefit is that you may feel like you find some comfort for your emotional stresses in life. Another may be that you find fellowship with other Christians. In order to have these good things you really have no choice but to tag along whenever a Christian group goes out to do good works.

A human society on the other hand helps their fellow man simply because it is the humane thing to do. As human beings we all have built into our nature a sense of justice. Anger is the obvious proof of this. We feel anger when we are treated unjustly. We also have compassion that we feel when we see others who are treated unjustly because we know how painful that can be. This compassion moves us to help those people. Just because we do not always respond as readily as we might does not negate the fact that those things are inherit in our nature.

This is not to suggest that Christians do not have these feelings but their motivation will always remain suspect. Are they doing good for the sake of doing good or for the perceived benefits to themselves in other areas of their lives? When a humane person acts charitably and there is no reward possible then such suspicion is removed. It is not really charity when you are really looking for what you can get out of it.
Posted by phanto, Friday, 27 December 2013 9:08:22 AM
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Christianity has nothing to do with these charities, it is all to do with prestige for the CEO & a huge Salary. The more money he can raise the more prestige & bigger the remuneration. It must be remembered that only an average across all Charities of 25% of what is collected get anywhere near the Charity intended target. The 75% is Administration Fees.

As I said before. They throw parties to raise money to throw parties to raise money.
Posted by Jayb, Friday, 27 December 2013 9:23:37 AM
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Dear Phanto,

When Christians do charity in expectation of heavenly rewards or fellowship, they practice at the level of Religion-101.

When humanists help others in order to gain social acceptance and acknowledgement, they practice at the level of Humanity-101.

When Christians do charity in the service of God, without expectations, they practice at the level of Religious-Mastery.

When humanists help others out of pure compassion, they practice at the level of Humanity-Mastery.

There are in fact even lower preparatory classes where Christians abstain from sin for fear of hell and humanists behave civilly for fear of the police.

Attempting to compare Humanity-Mastery with Religion-101 is inappropriate.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Friday, 27 December 2013 10:00:51 AM
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Yuyutsu - When Christians do charity in the service of God, without expectations, they practice at the level of Religious-Mastery.

Well then they are doing two things. One is charity the other is service of God. Why not just do charity because it is a worthwhile thing in itself? The service of God adds nothing to the charity for the person receiving the charity since the same level of charity can be provided by someone not serving God. Christians do many things in their lives simply because it is reasonable to do them. You don’t eat food in the service of God you eat because you are hungry. You don’t drive your kids to sport to serve God unless you have a rather bizarre notion of what the word service means. To serve means that someone benefits. How can God who needs nothing benefit?

If you can achieve the ends that you claim you want (to help others) without servicing God then why not do only that? It must be because you need to serve God for some other reason and this can only be the benefits you perceive in other areas of your life. You may serve everyone without exception but you are still doing it for your own benefit.
Posted by phanto, Friday, 27 December 2013 10:51:55 AM
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One of the things that amuses me is where soldiers of the world's biggest Christian Nation (America) hold prayer meetings before they go out on missions to kill those that their Government has told them are 'enemies', these being those who don't believe in the profound sacredness of capitalism.

Of course, enemies come and go, depending on the fashion of the moment. After Christian America invaded Vietnam they killed millions of locals and now they are supplying Vietnam with patrol boats to keep them safe from the 'wicked' Chinese.

Christian America also engages in torture, rendition, caging prisoners, the use of depleted uranium and Agent Orange, Napalm which burns people alive, the joyful machine-gunning of Iraqi civilians, has used atomic bombs, has developed tactical nukes and chemical weapons, has used cluster bombs and landmines, drones, etc, etc, not bad for people who claim to be Christian.

I seem to remember a time when, during the Spanish Inquisition, terrible torture was inflicted on the godless in an effort to convince them that God is Love!

Yeah, Christianity, what a can of worms! I mean, even today, clerics feel up little kids and rape them.

Suffer the little children, and boy, do they suffer!

Religion, regardless of its colour, is a cancer that keeps us from ever achieving peace on earth.

Then that's its mission of course!
Posted by David G, Friday, 27 December 2013 11:01:56 AM
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Dear Phanto,

Yes, speaking in absolute terms, God doesn't need anything.

But speaking in absolute terms, others don't need anything either. In absolute terms, there is nothing but God: the Giver is God, the Receiver is God, the Giving is God and the Gift is God: the perceived separateness is a divine illusion.

However, one must begin somewhere.

So when a very-beginner approaches religion, they are told to abstain from sin in order to avoid punishment, as that's the only level they, for the time-being, can understand. This at least gets people out of mischief and prevents bad habits. Later, one is told about the reward of heaven, so they learn to use their will-power to form good habits.

Once good habits are formed, one can be taught about the true purpose of religion - to unite with God. One is taught to serve others as a practice in order to lose one's limited individual perspective and learn to see God in everyone and everything. Once the good habits are already there, the will-power that was developed in the earlier stage, along with the expectation of heaven, should now be renounced.

Thus charity is not for another person, but for yourself - you do it in order to grow closer to God, you serve others as a practice to see God in them (in your own words, "It must be because you need to serve God for some other reason"). Yes, at this stage there is still a tiny seed of expectation and will - to attain God.

Once God is realised, this last seed of desire is gone as well. Now you actually see God in everything, now you consciously serve God when you serve others. Having realised that others ARE in fact God, now you understand why they are worthy of service.

<<you are still doing it for your own benefit.>>

Yes, because you too are God.

But how to get there?

-That's what religion is all about, whether formally-declared-as-such or otherwise.

Ubi caritas et amor -Deus ibi est (where there's charity and love, God must be there)!
Posted by Yuyutsu, Friday, 27 December 2013 12:18:30 PM
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'Religion, regardless of its colour, is a cancer that keeps us from ever achieving peace on earth. '

so believed Mao and Stalin. Keep up your hatefilled dogmas David G. One day you might look at your own heart and realise the problem.
Posted by runner, Friday, 27 December 2013 1:09:41 PM
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Yuyutsu - If humans cannot agree on the meaning of the words they use then it is obvious that they cannot have a rational discussion. This is one of the fundamental principles of all argument. You seem to use a lot of language where the meaning of the words is not agreed upon by all human beings. For one example – “But speaking in absolute terms, others don't need anything either. In absolute terms, there is nothing but God: the Giver is God, the Receiver is God, the Giving is God and the Gift is God: the perceived separateness is a divine illusion.”

You show great disrespect to fellow posters when you do this. It is arrogant to use such language. If you have an argument as to the merits of Christian involvement in charitable work then you should be able to make that argument without resorting to language where there is no consensus of meaning. If such involvement is so reasonable and logical then it should not be hard to make a case for it using the same rules that everyone else agrees upon.

The fact that you resort to such language shows that you are backed into a corner and do not have a reasonable argument. Perhaps you are trying to protect something on which you have an emotional dependence. When people find themselves trapped in this way they often resort to aggression. One form of aggression is to elevate yourself above the rest of humanity by refusing to abide by the rules we all accept in normal circumstances when we do not feel threatened.

Every time you resort to such language you do nothing but expose your own emotional dependence on religion
Posted by phanto, Friday, 27 December 2013 8:56:59 PM
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Box of bananas anyone:)...lol...From the first human awakening, to where we are now...religion is/has been hard wired from the separation. So...you might ask....its the best first law and order we had in looking at our selves since we found out how to screw each other over.

Your still in baby boots.

We will wait for you.

Planet3
Posted by PLANET3, Friday, 27 December 2013 10:42:09 PM
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phantasm/quote..<<.To serve..means that someone benefits.>>

serve/means..to do ones duty
duty means..moral/or..legal obligation

bad policing/bad service=dis-service..[who has been served..by poor bad or absent/biased..or poor service?][one serving..badly benefits no-one]
'
<<..How can God..who needs nothing benefit?>>
and you..know..god needs nothing..how?

does it benefit..god not having to/do it..for me/you/us..
[if i grow up/look after myself?..one more serving..one less needing service..of course it helps god]

<<..The service of God adds nothing..to the charity..for the person receiving the charity>>[rubbish..police XCHARGE you for their serevices..hospitals charge for their services/xtians are expected to doit for charity[so too many other beliefs]

<<..since the same level of charity..can be provided by someone not serving God...>>

please present proof..

<<..Christians do many things in their lives simply because it is reasonable to do them.>

who dosnt?

you have a rather bizarre notion
of what the word service means...

in/relation to the religious
as a service..the garage checks..if it can sell you some oil..a week before they say..the next oil change is due*[ever heard of over servicing?..in some religions thats a crime][say your an atheist..am i..serving you by..telling you of god..or god rates all serving as good..how about the yankies serving war globally?

good service to big oil=bad service to the rest of us
just because of iran..we pay 20 cents more per litre..of fuel
good service..or dis-service..[self serving/serving only the undeserving]

service=duty..who..binds atheists..charity/into..duty?
if you think..god is watching/weighing the quality..of thy service..you try harder

[if you think serving anyone=serving god wee try harder/than/if your only doing 'duty'..wiping out nips/gooks ..or other labels..we serve higher by demanding ending murder][all life is sustained..its living of god/thus our service begins with all life being sacred
Posted by one under god, Saturday, 28 December 2013 7:37:24 PM
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Dear Phanto,

<<You show great disrespect to fellow posters when you do this.>>

If that is so, please show me where, who and how.

<<It is arrogant to use such language.>>

Do you mean it's arrogant to mention the Truth that what we truly are, is God?
Do you mean that all scriptures that state so are arrogant?

<<If you have an argument as to the merits of Christian involvement in charitable work>>

In my last post, I freely admit that I departed and was no longer addressing the original issue of Christians and charity, but instead I addressed your former claim as if God need not be served.

Previously you asked:

<<If you can achieve the ends that you claim you want (to help others) without servicing God then why not do only that?>>

And my answer is that I never claimed having such a goal, that helping others is not an end to itself, but a means.

Had so-called 'others' been truly others in the sense of being completely separate from us, then helping them would make no sense. However, others are not separate because we all share God as our underlying common-ground and essence.

In other words:

<<Why not just do charity because it is a worthwhile thing in itself?>>

Because had it not been in the service of God, it would make no sense - it would not be worthwhile.

Now you need not be aware that your charitable acts are done in the service of God. You are entitled to give it any other reasoning and use any other language, but even if you are an atheist, when you do charity without expectations, you do serve God and you do in fact come closer to Him, whether you know it or not.

Some people are motivated to do charity by the logical understanding that they are in fact serving God, but if you can find a different motivation, then God bless you, then you are no less religious than them.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Saturday, 28 December 2013 10:55:51 PM
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Yuyutsu: but even if you are an atheist, when you do charity without expectations, you do serve God and you do in fact come closer to Him, whether you know it or not.

Of course that statement depends on weather or not there is a "GOD."

In the scheme of things we are but fleas on a Proton of some Atom somewhere in something. Maybe that is what "GOD" is, or, maybe that "GOD" is but a flea on another Proton on another Atom, ad infinite. Fractually speaking. x(x+1),
Posted by Jayb, Saturday, 28 December 2013 11:41:36 PM
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jayb/quote..<<..Of course that statement depends on weather or not there is a "GOD.">>

jay..whether we believe..in god[or not]...there is greater/..
there is yet greater..[and lesser]..than us
what are men..in relation/to say..the elements..or even/chance.

<..In the scheme of things we are but fleas..on a Proton of some Atom somewhere in something.>>

i get what/you are trying to say..but the living energies..of fleas
need the reliant..energy exchanges..[thus fleas..on a dinosaur]..or quarks of a photon

[see the holy spirit=energy..that includes everything
[but god..is a living concept/applicable..only to life/living]..where we see life..[love logic/light]..there is god..that living is of god..EVERything=holy spirit.[we are allowed our beliefs..the concept..is broad]

our earthly..god..is the sun[one day..it realized into sunship
and with focused will..dared utter those immortal..words..we all in..time may utter..[let there be light]..and behold..the light didst sustain...life/living..via logic..that in time life evolve love..and more let there be lights [see the heavens]

<<..Maybe that is what "GOD" is,>>
god[to me]..is a strange all inclusive word..that includes all them strange things/our parents couldnt even conceive[but god..is you]

what your missing is that there are infinite/gods
yet all gods collectively..=the holy omnipresent spirit

the holy spirit=1

<<..or..maybe that "GOD" is but a flea on another Proton
on another Atom, ad infinite. Fractually speaking. x(x+1),..>>

x=x
x+1=..not x

god..[our earthy/sun]..for all intents purpose=our god
[let x=god]
she emits a gamma burst..and life dies..she sends her light/life lives..she has her period..and we get a solar maxim/whether events etc

the sun..emits her light[its not her light..but the holy spirits light..[the holy spirit=[E]..energy..energy..=mass..[mass times the speed of light/times the speed of light]..or e=mc2..as science puts it
Posted by one under god, Sunday, 29 December 2013 5:48:25 AM
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x+1=..not x

god..[our earthy/sun]..[the universe= the plus 1]

in time you too..shall become a sun..of the sun]
[herself a sun...of the fathers holy spirit/de'light

just as many even today..are sons..of the sun[sun=our god]..for all intents purpose life begat..from..the formation..of the sun-vortex
sorting the earthy matter..into her solar swystem=our god

[let x=the wholy spirit
=the mass/potential/energy..of material universe
[plus the other 9 realms=x]

the sun..[of e]..emits his light..via our sun
in/that process consumes he her/changes here state
her emitted/radiated photons etc..=our light[in its many spectrum's..each sustaining alternate states of life..in the other realms

[its not her light=life..but the holy spirits light/logic/love/life..
[the holy spirit=[E]..energy..energy..=ALL/mass..[mass times the speed of light/times the speed of light]..or e=mc2..as science puts it

its still only a start..in mans comprehension
it begins with a simple concept..like e..that become me..that is revealed to be its inversion..we..that wee = the logic/love truth..of he in me..falsifiable only by realization..of the other of he=me=we

ME
WE

one holy spirit
many sons of the father
Posted by one under god, Sunday, 29 December 2013 6:15:45 AM
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the harder/my guides push..t get it out
the harder the forces resist..please read..through the push back/karmic/blow back]

i will try again..[knowing the push back..will be proportionately/harder]..but i must do..that i must see done

everything..in..its oneness..in..its completed/totality=potentate/of [E]

[just..to get this far..there have..been 5 inversions..of the words]

so i will correct previous post errors..[the harder i push it/the harder the instant/karma pushes back]..lord let this hell be over.

if the holy spirit=x
x+1=..is the wholly..of holy..1

that we think..of as god..=is=..our earthy/sun..
[the universe=plus...the other 9..created..the plus 1][plus 1]

in time you too..shall become a sun..of the holy spirit..just like
e the sun/of the light..[herself a sun...of the fathers holy spirit/..de'light

just as many even today..are sons..of the sun[sun=our god]..
for all intents purpose life begot..from..the formation..of the sun-vortex...sorting the earthy matter..into her solar system/planets..etc=our creator/god

[let x=the wholly spirit
=the mass/potential/energy..of material universe
[plus the other 9 realms=x][except/let..9=11]

the suns..[of e][the holy/spirit..as opposedd to him/wholy spirit....as opposed to she..who emits his light..via our sun

she of absolute self sacrificing..in/that process consumes he her/changes here state/her emitted/radiated photons/radon's/protons etc..=our light..[in its many spectrum's..with each sustaining alternate states of life..in the other realms

[its not her light=life..
but the holy spirits light/logic/love/life..
[the holy spirit=[E]..energy..energy..=..ALL/mass/plus all potential..[potentate mass..[mass times the speed of light/times the speed of light]..or e=mc2..as science puts it

its still only a start..in mans comprehension
it begins with a simple concept..like e..that become me..[i am].
that is revealed..to be its inversion..we..that wee = the logic/love truth..of he in me..

falsifiable only by realization..of
the other of he=me=we

ME
=
WE

one wholly holy spirit
many sons of the father
and along with he..we are 1
Posted by one under god, Sunday, 29 December 2013 6:39:33 AM
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Nightmare, you have certainly out done yourself this time.

by the way, x(x+1)=x. See, Mandelbrot & Julia Sets. What I was eluding to is that it does not matter which way you go , it's all a repartition.
Posted by Jayb, Sunday, 29 December 2013 7:40:51 AM
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an' fo' God sake take your pills.
Posted by Jayb, Sunday, 29 December 2013 7:46:20 AM
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Dear Jayb,

Your approach to God seems to be a variant of qualified-monism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vishishtadvaita). In other words, the drop-of-water and the ocean are the same because they have the same qualities, yet the ocean is bigger. Some Christians also take this approach, on the premise that man is made "in the image of God" (yet a miniature image).

Most people as they start on the path of religion, initially benefit from worshipping God as different than themselves, because for most, it's too abstract, thus useless, to shake-off the idea of oneself being (unlike God) limited, weak and a sinner. Philosophically, this approach doesn't stand a chance, it's full of paradoxes and has become the laughing-stock of atheists ("Can God create a-stone-so-heavy-that-He-cannot-lift?"), but it has some practical advantages.

The approach of qualified-monism is intermediate, more advanced than dualism: now me and God are similar in nature, now there's a chance to kind-of-unite with God (by the drop of water reaching the ocean): while one no longer identifies themselves as a sinner, one still seems to be limited in capacity. Some philosophical paradoxes still remain, as you mentioned yourself.

The highest religious approach is of monism, or non-dualism, where it is understood that there is no difference whatsoever, in fact complete identity, between the individual-self (or soul) and the universal-self (or God). While philosophically only non-duality resolves all paradoxes about God, only few are actually able to practice at this level: most would be perplexed at the idea of "what? worship myself?", while others might attempt to do so, but worship false-ideas of themselves instead.

<<Of course that statement depends on weather or not there is a "GOD.">>

Thinking of God as either separate or bigger than yourself, while an extremely useful religious practice, would be silly if meant as an objective statement.

When an atheist does charity without expectations, they undermine their ego, which is just what religion is supposed to be doing. Once ego is gone, they too realise their true identity as God. Forget then about the name 'God': that YOU ARE is undeniable.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Sunday, 29 December 2013 7:48:08 AM
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Yuyutsu: When an atheist does charity without expectations, they undermine their ego, which is just what religion is supposed to be doing. Once ego is gone, they too realise their true identity as God. Forget then about the name 'God': that YOU ARE is undeniable.

What a load of crap Yuyutsy. Your assumption of Atheist's is all squiff. Atheists give because it's the right thing to do under the circumstances not to curry favour with some "GOD." It has nothing to do with their EGO. Some people cut & paste their own EGO's onto what they don't like because that's exactly what they're are really like themselves.
Posted by Jayb, Sunday, 29 December 2013 8:21:15 AM
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Dear Jayb,

I make no assumptions about atheists: Atheists, like everyone else, give for a myriad of different reasons.

If and when someone, be they atheist or otherwise, does charity without expecting any favour in return, neither from people nor from God (perhaps as you say, because they believe that it's the right thing to do under the circumstances), then by doing so they undermine their ego, letting it starve, thus they come closer to God.

Atheists can be religious like anybody else, the only difference being that they do not use the specific religious practice of believing in God - yet there are plenty of other religious practices, and doing things simply because "it's the right thing to do under the circumstances", is one of them.

Arriving at this blessed level of always doing things simply because "it's the right thing to do under the circumstances" (and always avoiding doing other things that are "not the right thing to do under the circumstances"), is not easy. Most people cannot do it straight away, so religion helps them to develop their character, so they may gradually reach this level.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Sunday, 29 December 2013 10:04:43 AM
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one under god –

You seem very insecure about your opinions. I note you call Richard Dawkins ‘dorkins’. You also called me phantasm. Why do you need to try and put people down by ridiculing them? Surely if you are secure in your views you would not have to behave aggressively towards people simply because they have a different opinion to yourself.
Posted by phanto, Sunday, 29 December 2013 1:50:23 PM
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phantasm..your name has no meaning..to me..at all
so..i read..your posts..and note how you come and go..
on..occasion for years at a time..so to me your phantom/or phantasm

as for dickk dorklings..i once beat him at his own site
in a debate about a theory..of his re flatfish..evolving their eyes..cause dorkins claimed the poor things evolved they eyes..because one eye was dragging in/the mud[just after i proved to him/that flatfish fry..look-like normal fish..he hit delete..4 pages of 'debate..simply disappeared..10 minutes after

so he became dic dorkies..maybe in time if you dont run
you might earn a real m\name[but as you didnt reply the topic..phanto suits you better[its not complete/eiher]..nor are you..you sound knowledgeable/maybe even inteligent..but trollls who dont reply the topic reveal they got nuthin

next time you will say you cant understand me
or other insults..like meds..its all opinion ..and my opinion is your going to do what..the phantasm..do..your certainly no phantom

feel better now?
no further off topic trolling replied to
likely you will just do..a dic/dorkins..anyhow im/not christian..either..but im willing to help..see you around?

or not..[.my...money...is you'll..be doing..'a runner']..
here today..tomorrow who knows[duel id?].[you dont say anything interesting enough to do the study..[good luck..and all that..
Posted by one under god, Sunday, 29 December 2013 7:56:11 PM
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[Deleted. You and OUG can take your squabble somewhere else.]
Posted by phanto, Sunday, 29 December 2013 10:05:53 PM
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[See previous comment.]
Posted by one under god, Monday, 30 December 2013 5:51:07 AM
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Yuyutsy: because "it's the right thing to do under the circumstances" (and always avoiding doing other things that are "not the right thing to do under the circumstances"), is not easy.

Oh, BS. Most people I know who aren't religious in any way shape or form & they, like me have no trouble avoiding "wrong" at all.

Yuyutsy: Most people cannot do it straight away, so religion helps them to develop their character, so they may gradually reach this level.

Oh, BS, again. Right & wrong is a built in human concept, (is that the word I'm looking for.) It has nothing to do with being "Christian" even indigenous people who have no GOD at all (spirits maybe, but not a concept of a "GOD" in any sense have a sense of right & wrong.

I find "Religious" people of all types have a smug holier than thou attitude to those that don't, which, when you look at It, is incongruent with their supposed beliefs.

Phanto, don't let Nightmare get to you. He's been of his meds for a while now. We really should have pity on him because it's the "Christian" thing to do. ;-)
Posted by Jayb, Monday, 30 December 2013 9:22:27 AM
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Dear Jayb,

<<Oh, BS. Most people I know who aren't religious in any way shape or form & they, like me have no trouble avoiding "wrong" at all.>>

Good on them - I have.

Not even once straying from their healthy diet and eating something "wrong" - that's admirable! Myself, I hardly know a single person who is up to that high standard.

Now what makes you believe that your friends/acquaintances aren't religious? Just because they don't practice this or that particular religious technique (such as going to church or believing in God), it may simply mean that this particular technique doesn't suit them, or that different religious techniques suit them better.

<<Right & wrong is a built in human concept>>

That's off-topic, so I won't waste my words on that: I only mentioned "the right thing to do under the circumstances" because you did, then I acknowledged that acting for that reason is a valid religious technique (perhaps even the one which suits you most, perhaps you are already doing so).

<<indigenous people who have no GOD at all>>

You must be confusing God with a "concept of God". No Concept is a requisite of religion (although some concepts help some people at some times).

<<I find "Religious" people of all types have a smug holier than thou attitude to those that don't>>

I am glad that you placed "Religious" in quotes: how can one tell a religious person anyway? do they wear a special hat? Declaring oneself "religious" doesn't guarantee that one is indeed so (nor does declaring oneself to be "irreligious" guarantee that one is not). In any case, is there something wrong about being holy? Is it feasible for everyone to be equally holy? otherwise isn't it inevitable that at any point in time, some people would be holier than others?
Posted by Yuyutsu, Monday, 30 December 2013 11:35:56 AM
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Terrific article. Thank You.
Suggestion: Make all those Christian persons and organisations listed in this article core teaching/learnings. Make sure the National Australian Curriculum has this aspect of our culture included.
All glory goes to a loving and merciful God and on the national day of Prayer (in all schools) we thank god for these Godly minded individuals who thought of others needs, as Jesus did.
Even the Santa Claus (saint Nicholas) of the Christmas season goes back to jesus the babe in the manger who is the jesus of the cross. Giving being the common thread. God the father giving His son as a babe, Jesus the Son giving His life for us. Redeeming us from the awful end we deserve. "Heaven will be a beautiful place filled with glory and grace" This is the grace of God. grace upon Grace. Each Christmas we need to reflect and remember why we make such a fuss of Santa. Santa was originally Saint Nicholas a genuine saint who gave to the poor(loved). A saint is someone who loves jesus. Jesus loved us. Gave the gift of Himself for us. Remember Jesus. Jesus is the whole reason for the season - we so easily forget. AND the reason for the Holidays (Holy Days). Remember and give thanks to the Creator God - The father of all mankind and the universe.
Loved this article.
Posted by Canary in Coalmine, Monday, 30 December 2013 12:27:17 PM
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I pray God will Bless the people reading my posts. The glory goes to God not me. My purpose of life is to point people to the Living and true God…. not about me.
Aspect 1. "Religion" "Religious" One can behave religiously about football attendance or even work.
Faith in the Living God is a free choice. "I freely choose to be identified with Christ" FREE CHOICE. Free to worship and praise Him. etc. If one is not free to choose this then you have a cult. Maybe even a "religious cult"…..
Aspect 2. The main purpose of life is about (not contesting with one another) but to come clean before God. Know God, learn about His character. Internalize His promises and mercy.
It is about our attitude to God. Do we have a heart for the things of God? God IS love. He LOVED mankind. It is mankind who causes all the chaos on earth not God. When mankind does not listen to God there is no LOVE (agape love). I am not talking about eros love here. Yes God allows man free choice and He allows all the hurts and troubles to occur because He wants each individual to SEEK Him. Each individual needs to seek God for themselves. God draws people to Himself and gives everyone an opportunity to trust in Him. Acknowledge Him now and you can have a new start in you life. Guaranteed in the Name of Jesus Christ the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Posted by Canary in Coalmine, Monday, 30 December 2013 12:58:02 PM
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Dear Canary,

Amen. Thank you for your blessings. May God bless you too.

Just one remark:
You mentioned free choice and you mentioned National Australian Curriculum, but the two don't go well together.

Let glory be to God in the highest and peace on earth, good will towards men!
Posted by Yuyutsu, Monday, 30 December 2013 1:22:33 PM
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Well there ya go, Yutsy. The Canary in the Coalmine, or Religious Taliban. I find there is, in reality, no difference between The Canary, OUG & the Taliban. I'm sure they are all good charitable people in their own right, but if allowed to, would equally cut a disbelievers head off. That's what Canaries with Sugar Plum Fairies in their heads do, given the chance. Just looking at past History.

Yutsy: Right & wrong is a built in human concept>>

That's off-topic, so I won't waste my words on that:

I don't see why it's off topic. Your claim is that only Christians can have knowledge of Right & Wrong, so they give to Charities because it's the Godly thing to do. If an Atheist gives to Charity then they must also really believe in God & that's why they can know Right from Wrong. Rather convoluted but also wrong.

The "Fear of God" drives most Religious people. The reason for the Inquisition & Muslim Terrorists. I guess Atheists are lucky in that respect as there is no God so there is nothing to fear. We use the built in Right & Wrong to decide what Charitable actions to take.

Now here's a question. Would you donate to the Taliban Widows Fund? knowing that only 25% of your donation would get to the Widow. The rest going to make Christian Widow.
Posted by Jayb, Monday, 30 December 2013 1:34:48 PM
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This is the most brilliant Christmas Carol because of this truth:
""GOD and sinners reconciled"".
2 New Commandments: Love God (first) then Love others ( we can only truly love others if we love God first and understand how much He loved us-unto death).
All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God UNTIL they once again come to the Father through the Son (Jesus)

""Hark the Herald Angel Sing Glory to the New Born KING.""
Peace on earth and mercy mild ….""God and sinners reconciled"" NB Peace on earth is about Peace in our hearts towards God and just who He is. Jesus came so that we may be reconciled to God the Father. When we are reconciled to God (personally and individually) This new attitude to God gives us peace in our heart and then and only then can we have peace with others. The purpose of life is to have PEACE with God (first) then and only then will man will be able to have peace with one another.
Those seeking so desperately to come to Australia are not coming because Australia is secular. in other parts of the world Australia is seen as Christian so that is why they risk their lives to come here. Christians from all over the world -Yes you are very welcome here. Australia is a Mission field.
He is real and He is alive… He rose from the dead (remember) 500-600 people saw Jesus after He rose from the grave, so where is he now? Alive and Risen - At the right hand of the Father interceding for believers. But Jesus sent His Holy Spirit to every believer. How awesome is this :-)
Peace be with you all, (by the mercy and grace of God) Glory to God
Posted by Canary in Coalmine, Monday, 30 December 2013 2:13:09 PM
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No Jayb

God is the judge - I will not be cutting your head off. It is not my place to judge. My Lord assures me that I do not have to go there with anybody.

Jesus motivation is Always Love, Love of people. Christian Love the God who loved them. Grace and more grace and that motivates them to love others.

Grace is the total opposite of works. When do you know you have done enough works to keep God happy-never :-( ?
However the Good News is: I know God loves me as I am - a sinner. B U T now I am a saved sinner, i know i don't have to work my way to get to heaven. i am A S S U R E D of my place in heaven because of what
J E S U S did. That is why it is not about me-it is about what Jesus did for me. He took my place.
Now i am free from Works of good service and can do by grace the works i choose to do and am really good at. thanks and praise to God alone. Amen

Last post for today :-)
Posted by Canary in Coalmine, Monday, 30 December 2013 2:31:16 PM
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jay's/quote..<<..I find there is, in reality, no difference between The Canary, OUG & the Taliban.>>

thats sad..in/light of the fact..i..just had the previous post..deleted..so im on notice..[let the which hunt..begin?]

anyhow i learned..who..'freddy/kruger'..is
so i cant be impolite..to pinto[pro]..any more

BUT..mate..in..light of my possibly being killed tomorrow..I/MUST..CORREcT your slur..

if simple reply..kills my id..so/be it

<<..I'm sure they..are all good charitable..people in their own right,..but if allowed to,..would equally cut a disbelievers head off.>>

I DEMAND PROOF*
*i cannot allow these SLURS..to stand
prove it or with draw the statement..

thats not what i feel/nor believe[if anyone is to die..
I PRAY*..to the father..it be me.[thats not..a.. death wish]

<<..Just looking at past History.>>

CITATION..NEEDED

<<>.Yutsy:..Your claim is that
only Christians can have knowledge of Right & Wrong,>>

you of course..are correct*

<<..so they give to Charities
because it's the Godly thing to do.>>

OF CURSE NOT..giving to religion..GIVES '.you/us' a TAX deduction
the rich..chose who/gets their bailout..[the poor will just get a BAIL-in[cause govt..plunders the wages as we earn..it..[yet we dont have wage tax..[only income tax]..

*income..ISNT WAGE*

<<..The "Fear of God"..drives most Religious people.>>

rubbish
WHO FEAR's..ETERNAL-LOVE?
what fool fears..grace/mercy/life/love/light/logic?

if you must mis-judge me..at least read what i say

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6040&page=0#177801

<<..The reason for the Inquisition..& Muslim Terrorists.>>

is oil..war booty/profiteering/colonization[gold recovery]
its capitalists..LOVING infinite amounts of us cash/credit/l;icence..to/fight ETERNAL/war..

[well no more]..not one penny.of my cash goes to..govt/war

god=peace
life..not pieces

those so called..suicide bombers are OFTEn..retarded
widowed..or..blackmailed

<<>.as there is no God .so there is nothing to fear.>>

BECAUSE THERE IS..A GOOD GOD/LIVING
LOVING god/there is nothing to fear*

jesus is but..a thought away..ask..IN..HIS NAME ..and even demonic l;looking aliens..just fade away

<<..We use the built in Right..&
Wrong to decide what Charitable actions to take.>>

if we only see..the "charity"
was it also..your tax deduction?

*if govt is paying..it for you..its NOT charity

<<..Now here's a question...Widow.>>..

now hear..your answer..if govt allows..20 ex soldiers to die..
*BY THEIR OWN HAND*..every*day..are they war widows TOO?
Posted by one under god, Monday, 30 December 2013 2:33:11 PM
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Dear Jayb,

<<Your claim is that only Christians can have knowledge of Right & Wrong>>

Please don't put words in my mouth: I never said anything like that (and BTW, I'm not even Christian).

<<so they give to Charities because it's the Godly thing to do.>>

Giving charity without any expectation of reward is indeed a Godly thing to do, but you don't need to be a Christian for that and you don't even need to believe in God: atheists too can become Godly through charity.

<<The "Fear of God" drives most Religious people.>>

It only drives some beginners on the religious path and it can only take them that far. To progress further, one must learn to love God rather than fear Him - with all one's heart, with all one's soul and with all one's capacity.

<<but if allowed to, would equally cut a disbelievers head off.>>

Actually not a bad idea: cut the head off, give it a good clean, then put it back in place nice and tidy. While belief in God is not required, the problem is in what fills the head instead...

<<Would you donate to the Taliban Widows Fund?>>

No.

<<I find there is, in reality, no difference between The Canary, OUG & the Taliban.>>

Indeed, this is what happens when Politically-Correct humanists consider 'discrimination' a dirty word.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Monday, 30 December 2013 2:37:46 PM
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I like this article.

Re the comment above about Christian organizations ripping off people to enjoy a first class lifestyle rather than allocate a decent proportion of the donations to the nominated cause: there was a survey published recently where, yes, there were mixed results from Christian and secular aid organizations.

The survey cited World Vision (one of Australia's largest Christian agencies) setting a 'gold standard' in this area: 11% on expenses, the rest to the nominated cause...

The inference that Christians must not only be 'good' but be *seen* to be good is a fair comment.

Rowland Crouche
Posted by Rowland Croucher, Monday, 30 December 2013 3:09:16 PM
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ka-cheee crack, OUG! back on ya box.

Ka-cheee crack, CinC! Back on ya box.

RC: The survey cited World Vision (one of Australia's largest Christian agencies) setting a 'gold standard' in this area: 11% on expenses, the rest to the nominated cause...

Yes I have the same clipping, I keep it handy for "Door knockers" but I can't find it at the moment. Good one.

Well Yutsy I'd send to your box too but I actually, under all that bravado, suspect, form past posts elsewhere on OLO, you have a few brains. I suspect you have come back with overstatement in defence, which is nothing an unusual.

I actually suspect that people give, in door knock campaigns because they feel pressured at the time, "I have to give something I suppose, otherwise I'll look like a cheapskate." Other people are looking to buy their way into heaven with bequests. Not everybody is like that, of course. As you say, people donate because it's the Christian thing to do. Like people feeding the Buddhist Monks every morning. Or Muslims looking after Widows, oh, wait a minute, Widows get raped & starve to death unless your husband was a martyr. Or in one of the many Refugee Camps who are mainly looked after by Christian & other non Religious Groups. I see The Saudies have just given $6b in Charity Arms to the Lebanese Army in their fight against the Rebels. Long range rockets? (? Israel, I wonder.) I wonder how much Charity they gave to the Refugee Camps.

Yutsy: Please don't put words in my mouth: I never said anything like that (and BTW, I'm not even Christian).

Aarr, true, on looking back. Sorry, but the intimation is there.
Posted by Jayb, Monday, 30 December 2013 7:31:00 PM
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dear jb..just finished two hours..in the lockup/
now your sticking me in a box[with no rebuttal fact?]
mate you should join..the 'force'..got roughed up/by unbeliever atheist police.

we took the oath../to serve
the same queen/her heirs and suck-ceasers
yet there they are ENFORCING state laws by fraud
[peter beaty..rewrote the damm thing..into/an act..in 2002
put the bits he DIDNT like in/the appendix..

[lots..a lawyer tricks[and not one christian..in/the forces..
clearly they missed matthew..5;33-37/..25;16-27..james 5;12]

that speaks very clearly..for those with eyes to read
james 2;..4-114../..3;[all]..4[all]
Posted by one under god, Wednesday, 1 January 2014 3:46:48 AM
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[Deleted. Abuse and completely off-topic. Both JayB and OUG sin binned until January 4.]
Posted by Jayb, Wednesday, 1 January 2014 10:05:22 AM
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[Deleted. Off-topic. Sin-binned until 4/1/14 ]
Posted by one under god, Wednesday, 1 January 2014 1:14:35 PM
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Matthew 6
“Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. “Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. “And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward."
I guess M.Forster missed that one.
Posted by Grim, Thursday, 2 January 2014 3:13:49 PM
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i agree grim..that the charity..should*..be anon
swedenberg..explained it well

http://www.sacred-texts.com/swd/cha/
but i was driven..to act publicly..and sure only got bruised[not killed]..my sternum..[or..my heart/yet feels in pain]

it was via some clever/new policing..POLICING method..[no doudt developed by the satanic forces,,of the mossad/cia stazie..[who glory in causing pain]..UN-christian/UPON HAND CUFFED innocents]..water-boarding included simply TRYING to smoke a..joint

you christians..[taking..oath..to serve statehood fictions]..are JUST FINE..[hypocrites?]..i of the house of levi and issiah..called you out

to smoke a plant..I REFUSE TO QUENCH..[issiah 42]
a PLANT..ONLY GOD CAN MAKE TO GROW..the war satan declared war over..but GIFTED..unto men..by god himself..[gen 1;29]

THAT was SPECIFICALLY gifted to man..[read genesis..1;29]

just imagine you were finishing your joint..in a [peace welcomg ceremony..to the new years..at warfs street..]then roughed up..by the [policers of statehood fictions..of personhood..revenue-raisess.

that govt passed..under cover of darkness[in secret]...SO AT 2 AM..one late night..the 'govt'..PASSES A ANTI DRUG law[NOW DECLARES WAR>>a drug=WAR..on kids[37,000 plus per year]..they failed to stop me..[then]..and been doing the same EVER since.

that satanic/law..INVERTS old true trusted LAW..[of..possession being 9/10 the law..then after PROVING..[by disossesing..me under threat by force..thus..i couldnt HAVE law full POSSESSION..[By taking it with brute force..they had possession]..yet the charge..now stands i possesed a joint[from the seedy plant.

recall..govt..is about coloniser exploitation[revenue raising]..
recall the natzie/stalin..chairman mao..[polpot?..first they ATTACKED the old feeble insane and simple minded..then they went the homo/the pervert the poles and the jew

next they DECLARE a drug war on children
for revenue raising..[65 million/pieces of silver]

i admit..the poles shifted..in me..oug died
his new name=snow dragon..[how can i change my id?]

i dont feel different..but unsealed many spirits that day.
[or rather the police personum did...when they removed the ichin reeds from the horn..[of plenty]..arround 8 pm
Posted by one under god, Saturday, 4 January 2014 5:53:41 PM
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over half the population..has smoked..'a joint'

millions..of Aussies..most report..nothing..[most..who/tried it and..said..its a waste of effort]..it..counter reacts..with alochol..so..im fully for extending prohibition on booze

and until/christians..can/grasp..that its the same thing..[but for a lie of 'scheduled drug..under section''..blah blah]..thats just clever trickery//ALL..your govt....NEED DO IS GET HOPS OR BURNT GRAIN..on the schedule..and your gone*

its as simple as that

ps..hops is dopes closest relative..so if your drinking beer
be very careful taking them..'drug'..tests..cause mate their going to get you booze hounds next..[ps..just so you can have a little more knowing..6 vegetables..have cannabinols..in them..

so mate stop eating meat and get..the same..'high' eating ya vegetable's..lotsa lettus..[your gone]..too much tomato/potato..your BUSTED..the next drug test you take THINKING..your n0 stoner

then..one/day..they come for you.

on the strength..of a POSiTIVE drug test..6 thugs will awake you next day..at 4 am..and turn your every possession..into a pile of garbage./.shame you before your neighbors..and wife kids..lock you up for a weekend.then take you through up to 8 court appearances..my first one..for a long time..begins..14/01/14..my d-day*..[in private..or in public..the satanic/lie..needs be exposed[see rev 22]
Posted by one under god, Saturday, 4 January 2014 5:54:05 PM
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[Deleted for abuse. Poster suspended.]
Posted by Jayb, Saturday, 4 January 2014 7:58:47 PM
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.U.S. judge asks: Why haven’t the financial executives been prosecuted?

Michael Hiltzik
Los Angeles Times
January 3, 2013

As the five-year statute of limitations approaches for the wrongdoing that bequeathed us the Great Recession, the question of why no high-level executives have been prosecuted becomes more urgent.

You won’t find a better, more incisive discussion of the question than the one by U.S. District Judge Jed Rakoff of New York in the current issue of the New York Review of Books.
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2014/jan/09/financial-crisis-why-no-executive-prosecutions/
[...]

In his new essay, Rakoff takes particular aim at the government’s habit of prosecuting corporations, but not their executives — a trend we railed against earlier this year.
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hiltzik-20130208,0,1163345.column#axzz2oz48CY00
Read more
. http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-us-judge-20131230,0,4386369.story#axzz2pLrpUNRM * World Trade Center Asks 9/11 Judge to Dismiss AMR Defense
* http://www.infowars.com/world-trade-center-asks-911-judge-to-dismiss-amr-defense/ Barclays Executives Knew of Libor Lowballing, Guardian Claims
* http://www.infowars.com/barclays-executives-knew-of-libor-lowballing-guardian-claims/ Chevron executives barred from leaving Brazil over spill
* http://www.infowars.com/chevron-executives-barred-from-leaving-brazil-over-spill/ Chevron executives barred from leaving Brazil over new oil spill
* http://www.infowars.com/executives-at-collapsed-iceland-bank-jailed-for-fraud/ Executives at collapsed Iceland bank jailed for fraud
Posted by one under god, Monday, 6 January 2014 5:39:42 AM
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Well, this has been fun. Again.

For some reason, every so often Christians decide they need to justify their faith by parading their charities. Fair enough. In these more enlightened times they need every piece of ammunition they can get, to defend their irrational beliefs.

This thread has at least produced one little gem - thank you, Grim.

>>"Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven" etc. etc.<<

Another example of how it is embarrassingly apparent that Christians observe only a carefully managed selection of what their instruction manual tells them. And then have the chutzpah to criticize zealots from other religions for performing exactly the same feat of self-deception.

And while I am here, a small correction.

>>The survey cited World Vision (one of Australia's largest Christian agencies) setting a 'gold standard' in this area: 11% on expenses, the rest to the nominated cause.<<

The actual figure for World Vision, which is easily checked via the organization's own annual report, is that only 75.1% of the money raised is actually applied to charitable purposes. The "11% expenses" figure conveniently ignores the cost of raising the funds in the first place.

And Mr Costello, of course, continues to deliver amazing value for his quarter-of-a-million-plus remuneration.

"Gold standard" indeed.
Posted by Pericles, Monday, 6 January 2014 9:09:54 AM
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I'm surprised at the ease with which Christians have been allowed to hijack what are the essentially Jewish values clearly set out in the Torah (Pentateuch) and proclaimed by the Jewish preacher Yeshua (Jesus), as if they were his invention, rather than his reaffirmation of the Jewish tradition.
Tony O'Brien
Hobart Hebrew Congregation
Posted by tonyo, Thursday, 9 January 2014 8:25:15 PM
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Dear Tonyo,

The Pentateuch is full of commandments to murder: of animals for sacrifice; of a first-born donkey if not redeemed; of the seed of Amalek; of all the males of a city conquered from the seven Canaanite nations; of adulterers and others who break certain commandments; even to slay the inhabitants of a city that has become idolatrous and burn that city. It also prescribes striping for breaking other commandments and injuring all innocent male babies.

If you proudly claim intellectual-property rights over the nice and humane among the commandments, as many indeed are, then you cannot be selective about the text.
If on the other hand you can pick and choose, then so can others.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Thursday, 9 January 2014 9:06:03 PM
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Yuyutsu,..<<..If on the other hand you can pick and choose, then so can others>>

Thats funny..[i was just noting the flag[ON TOP OF SHARRONS..casket
the blue lines under and on top..[plus the DAVIDIan/star]..

noted..they..]look the same..right-side up..as well as upside down[tHE USUAL 'sign'..of distress*][this symbolism..is NOT OF gods will..but by mens design.]..we would be betraying..our christian calling..TO NOT POInt this out..

further..LEST WE FORGET]..
The City of David is a Jewish settlement near the Dung Gate of the Old City. On occupied land, and resisted by the Palestinian neighborhood of Silwan, whose land it is taking.

YOU..who....have adopted..as..a state-symbol
the menorah..(candlebrum).

<<..which is explained..in the Tenach..
(on..the occasion of..a previous return..to the Holy Land).

as,WRITTEN,,,in the sacred texts

*"..not..with..*armed force*..
..and..not with power,*....[*KEY*]
but..*in My spirit..says..the..Lord of Hosts.">>

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6040&page=0#176496

AND WE KNOW..jesus simplified the law to two
love goD..BY..love of other..[not via ..eternal/ongoing war*/MURDER*]

BY THEIR WORKS..NOT WORDS SHALL WE KNOW..them*[of the anti-christ*]
peace..not pieces..TRY..to correct the words..not MODERATED DELECTION.
Posted by one under god, Monday, 13 January 2014 12:20:57 PM
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[Deleted. Off topic.]
Posted by one under god, Wednesday, 22 January 2014 7:51:30 AM
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'Only Christian can have the knowledge of right and wrong'. Such delusional narrow minded rubbish.
I saw mention that donations should be done anonymously other wise you are seen as praise seeking? Something like that. What about in the church when the plate is put in your face, all eyes on you. And what about when you have no money to give, you dont want to be seen then.
The Catholic church is known to be the richest institute in the world. Many priceless works of art adorn the magnificent building. Do any of the monies in the Vatican, ever get dispersed among the needy? You never hear of such a thing. It would be nice to know the aid is getting to people, bring health to them and thanks to their faith in god.

'For an athiest to be charitable he must be expecting something in return, or loses his ego'. Give me strength.
Posted by jodelie, Friday, 24 January 2014 3:02:51 AM
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Forster: "We're Christian, and we're here to help."

My answer to that is to continue the sentence, "rip off the Donors."

Forster: What do The Red Cross, Amnesty International, Opportunity
International, Habitat for Humanity...have in common.

My answer to that is, "we're here to help rip off the Donors too."
Posted by Jayb, Friday, 24 January 2014 9:07:39 AM
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I'm a Christian and I'm here to help .... I'm an Ambassador for Christ I'm here to help
JESUS said, I Am the WAY, the Truth and the Life none come to the Father
Except through Me (The Lord Jesus Christ - the one and only son of God risen and currently sitting at the right hand of the Father.
Not Peter, not Mary , not the Pope, not other prophets.
Christ alone is the Way to the Father, to eternal life, to forgiveness of all our failure and our future temptations. Christ has conquered all. No amount of prayer, going to church, good works will replace Christ. Gods sacrifice for us. That is Grace - the Grace of God. That is why Christians should help ...in gratitude and as an act of worship to a loving God. I tell you this because that is my purpose in life now. To tell the Good News of Jesus Christ.
This is a new view of the world, not religion. The WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE.
Celebrate the Grace of God. Think about why the Reformation may have occurred. Think about why Jesus went to the synagogues and spoke with authority to the church and business leaders of the time. Could it be he was trying to tell them they were on the wrong path going the wrong Way. I tell you the Truth of Jesus Christ. He a free gift from God His son ..... A living sacrifice. a Gift from God
Blessing to the people on this topic.
Posted by Canary in Coalmine, Friday, 24 January 2014 9:49:12 AM
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