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The Forum > Article Comments > Integrated agreement the only way to resolve climate change > Comments

Integrated agreement the only way to resolve climate change : Comments

By Darcy Gilligan, published 22/11/2013

Support favouring climate action is surging across the globe. Domestic public demand for action is exceptionally high, and this has proven true in the latest talks at the current United Nations climate talks in Warsaw.

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This writer must be living in a different universe. Irrespective of what anyone may or may not think of climate change there was no indication that this conference will be any different to any of the others that have not produced any successor to Kyoto - quite the opposite. My distinct impression from the news reports is that no-one expects anything to happen, apart from the developing countries demanding more aid.

Come to think of it, isn't this the conference where the developing countries have been demanding compensation for damage supposedly caused by climate change - demands comprehensively rejected?
Posted by Curmudgeon, Friday, 22 November 2013 9:13:18 AM
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Darcy Gilligan,

>"Support favouring climate action is surging across the globe. Domestic public demand for action is exceptionally high, and this has proven true in the latest talks at the current United Nations climate talks in Warsaw."

What planet are you on? Certainly not Earth. I guess it is an indication of the power of group-think and herd-mentality that you could be so out of touch with reality.

To get a dose of reality just look at how little interest Warsaw climate chat has had in the English media world wide:
"This [chart] summarizes all English-language monitored mainstream and social media coverage worldwide of Climate Change": http://climatechange.carboncapturereport.org/cgi-bin/topic?#activitytimeline
And notice how the interest ha\s been decreasing since Copenhagen. Each climate conference has had less and less interest. Even the release of AR5 caused only a minor blip in interest. The clear conclusion is that people have lost interest in the doomsayers scare campaign. It's now in its death throws.

Furthermore, the policies being pushed by those who attend the UN climate conferences are doomed to fail. Bjorn Lomborg had an excellent article on this in this today's Australian. Some of the take away messages are:

THE past 20 years of international climate negotiations have essentially achieved nothing.

Japan could - incredible as it sounds - end up showing the world how to tackle global warming effectively.

Only the Europeans and a few others remain devoted to significant expenses for tiny outcomes.

By the end of the century (after a total cost [to the EU] of more than $20 trillion), [the EU policies] will reduce the projected temperature increase by a mere 0.05C.

Renewable energy is expensive and ineffective.

Innovation would push down the costs for future generations of wind, solar and other amazing possibilities [read 'nuclear', but not yet ready to say the hated 'N' word to his followers.] If green technology could be cheaper than fossil fuels, everyone would switch, not just a token number of well-meaning rich people. We would not need to convene yet more climate summits that eventually come to nothing.

- See more at: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/columnists/a-green-future-for-all/story-fni1hfs5-1226765589148#sthash.mzEtlTji.dpu
Posted by Peter Lang, Friday, 22 November 2013 9:58:01 AM
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The only thing "surging across the globe" with regard to climate change is more exaggerated and hysterical propaganda each time the climate proves to be acting against what the lying alarmists claim.
Posted by NeverTrustPoliticians, Friday, 22 November 2013 10:35:42 AM
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Even if the fevered prognostications of the AGW industry were real, the "tackle climate change" mantra is enough hot air to lift global temperatures all on its own. Check the calculations of someone who doesn't belong to the club but has figured out the economic implications of reducing emissions to "tackle climate change" on the basis of the relationship between emissions and global temperatures as forecast in the latest IPCC reports. It's at
http://topher.com.au/50-to-1-video-project/ .

For some of the past and present historical background to where the anti-carbon hullabaloo is being generated, have a read of
http://www.dcbureau.org/201204097128/national-security-news-service/united-states-circumvented-laws-to-help-japan-accumulate-tons-of-plutonium.html
Posted by EmperorJulian, Friday, 22 November 2013 11:34:30 AM
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Oh god, another one from the Fairyland disciplines, talking about things way beyond their understanding.

Darcy the only thing surging across the globe is the retreating global warming mob, desperately searching for a new gravy train, but one which still has wheels.

Why all this activity from the fairyland people, do they see a huge pile of projected money disappearing before their eyes as the fraud collapses, or do they see a huge void, from the lack of new publishing from the warmists, & have to fill it with something no matter how inane?

You'll have to get out into the real world to find the truth young feller, but a bit of time in the fresh air outside La Trobe should help you see straight.

A little tip. Before you start on something, check for a pulse. No amount of whipping has ever made a dead horse get up & go back to work. It is the same with failed scams, & believe me, global warming is dead, best you don't get buried with it.
Posted by Hasbeen, Friday, 22 November 2013 11:37:30 AM
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I wonder which conference the fairy princess has been attending?
"The situation is so bad that environmental activist groups have had enough and are walking out. According to Spiegel, Oxfam, Greenpeace, WWF, Nabu, BUND, Friends of the Earth and others are now boycotting the conference."

Full story here -
http://notrickszone.com/2013/11/21/spiegel-describes-cop-19-un-conference-descends-into-a-climate-circus-ngos-fume-and-boycott-every-single-issue-in-dispute/
Posted by Sparkyq, Friday, 22 November 2013 12:04:10 PM
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Dear Darcy,

I wish you a pleasant swim and walk/ride to Paris - you must be training hard at the moment for this amazing triathlon as I surely trust you will not catch a carbon-polluting plane to that 2015 conference.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Friday, 22 November 2013 12:17:13 PM
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I was going to thank Darcy for the heads up so I can tell my local MP (Greg Hunt) to not have a bar of this particular idea.
Then I read all the previous comments and had two visions of Darcy. Sobbing on the bed of his student garret or chatting up gullible young women with his "I am saving the world" speech. On the basis of W C Field's "There is one born every minute" I tend to the latter but hope for the former.
Good luck in all your dreams young Darcy but please do not expect me to pay for any of them.
Posted by JBowyer, Friday, 22 November 2013 1:09:22 PM
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What young Darcy needs is a strong dose of the consequence of his moralising position; which is to say a time travel ride back about 150 years to be greeted by no power, no medicine, none of the accoutrements of modern life and where he can get up at 5am, milk the cow, put in a 12 hour shift at the mill and come home to his gruel and his hair shirt.

AGW is now being revealed for what it is; a cash cow for the UN and various 3rd world countries and various corporate spivs peddling renewable energy and an indulgence by pampered nitwits who wouldn't know nature if it bit them on their silly backsides.
Posted by cohenite, Friday, 22 November 2013 1:33:48 PM
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Be not downhearted Darcy

You've achieved a rare thing on OLO - unanimity amongst Commenters.

Admittedly a unanimity totally opposed to you, undercutting your somewhat misguided, dare I say, uninformed views, but unanimity nevertheless.

Cheers

Pete
Posted by plantagenet, Friday, 22 November 2013 2:11:27 PM
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I read this article and couldn't believe my eyes. Feeling the need to express my shock at the simple mindedness I checked the comments to see what others are saying. My God, for the first time I see total rejection of the writer's opinion. Not even the old faithfuls are on board with him. So much for the global surge of support for the climate religion.
Posted by sbr108, Friday, 22 November 2013 2:44:16 PM
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Yoo hoo, Darcy. The plebs are losing the faith. Your side is losing the argument and people are not listening anymore. The premise you Poirot clones keep peddling is that the climate scientists are scientists, therefore what they say must be true. Climate change sceptics are arguing against science.

But scientists who promote GM food say that GM food is safe, and since when has your tree hugging Earth mothers and world savers ever ever agreed with those scientists?
Posted by LEGO, Friday, 22 November 2013 5:16:58 PM
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"The premise you Poirot clones keep peddling is...."

Aw, shucks, LEGO -

I'm flattered!
Posted by Poirot, Friday, 22 November 2013 6:38:01 PM
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Lego,
When Poirot is peddling she's only making the leg movement, there aren't any actual pedals. I wonder what she'll do if she eventually realises that ?
Posted by individual, Friday, 22 November 2013 7:24:01 PM
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Further to LEGO's post above:

And the scientific consensus is that the Green Revolution improved the lot of many in the underdeveloped world --but that upholder of scientific consensus, Poirot, sees it all as a huge capitalist plot to impoverish the the underdeveloped world.
Posted by SPQR, Saturday, 23 November 2013 5:42:38 AM
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Youthful idealism (I hope my assumption regarding Darcy's age/student/youth delegate status is correct and not seen as patronising) is admirable and does not deserve the nasty sneering tone that characterises much of what passes for 'comment' on these pages. But older and perhaps wiser folk like me are more likely to be sceptical that any effort to achieve complete global agreement on something as contentious and intangible (in the broad sense) as returning the globe to its pre-industrial climatic state could ever work in practice. So, instead of sniping, I want to ask Darcy and his cohort a simple and I hope constructive question. If you could indeed get 'the world' to agree totally on any matter you chose, would reducing emissions to reverse climate change be your top priority? Contextualising the issue is really important because there are many divisions in the world that are known with absolute certainty (not merely scientific projection) to lead to unbearable fear, suffering, starvation and death. The list could be quite long, but let me suggest a few contenders: war; religious divisions (which would I suppose require one agreed religion or better, none at all); the use of alcohol and other drugs that create various degrees of harm. I hasten to add that I am not suggesting that agreement regarding any of these evils could possibly work. Sadly, nor will attempts to get agreement to abandon the source of energy that created the health, wealth and, yes, wisdom through education that we in Australia take for granted. Therein lies the problem.
Posted by Tombee, Saturday, 23 November 2013 7:55:04 AM
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Still flattered, boys.

SPQR,

".....Poirot, sees it all as a huge capitalist plot to impoverish the the underdeveloped world."

No she doesn't see it as a plot to "impoverish" anything.

She does, however, recognise unsustainable practices when when she sees them.

She recognises groundwater depletion and poisoning - and soil degradation.

She recognises it when seed companies seek to exploit the peasantry and indenture them by making them pay for "special" annual seeds when in the past they saved and shared them.

She notes that peasants have been lured into unsustainable monoculture and encouraged to overuse pesticides and fertilizers by govt and corporations.

She recognises over 200,000 peasant farmer suicides.
Posted by Poirot, Saturday, 23 November 2013 8:39:56 AM
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The 'two camps' are relatively easy to define. Camp A aspires to gain money, power and prestige by spreading fear and despair: this includes 'consensus' scientists, left-wing politicians, the media, environmentalists and most third world nations. Camp B is waking up to the fact that this is all supposed to come out of their pockets and their civil liberties, and consists mainly of the Poor Bloody Taxpayers of the affluent West.
Posted by Jon J, Saturday, 23 November 2013 8:40:41 AM
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Sorry Tombee, but when youth, or a youth, makes a fool of itself, trying to pontificate on a subject of which they have absolutely no knowledge, it is likely to get up the collective noses of those who do have some knowledge of the subject.

There has been a rash of articles here written by social types, who's knowledge of science is almost nonexistent, despite having the word science in the title of their studies. I can only believe the misapplication of "science" to their subject is an attempt to try to legitimize their fairyland stuff.

That they then presume to lecture those who have put in the effort to understanding, at least to a reasonable extent, the math & systems involved is simply not reasonable.

When one is continually lectured by these people, one does become sick of it.
Posted by Hasbeen, Saturday, 23 November 2013 12:04:58 PM
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...says, Hasbeen, the atmospheric physicist (not)

He can't imagine why those who are qualified, work in the fields, and have expertise (and the people who source their conclusions) would not concur with his amateur stance.

Odd?
Posted by Poirot, Saturday, 23 November 2013 12:47:01 PM
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Poirot
You cannot peddle a dead horse. Nor in fact a live one. Old Joh isn't dead or forgotten just yet. Lol enjoy the humour of the mixed metopher.

On a personal note, poirot, I had my first literary efforts published this week. Another longterm goal achieved.

You know Darcy the line you are espousing so fervently is a greens line and the labor party are aligned with that line too.

That is why they lost the last election and are not likely to win well into the future either

Cheers
Posted by imajulianutter, Saturday, 23 November 2013 1:34:48 PM
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As an example of misleading information, it has always been said that Australia, per capita, is the largest ommiter of green house gasses.

What's not often said, is that the US is not far behind, 20 ton V 19.78 ton.

So, considering Aus is a huge exporter, the US population, living their day to day lives, actually omit more than we Aussies.

But hey, let's not let the truth get in the way of a good storey.

It is no coincidence that during the GFC, climate change took a back seat in the minds of most and, to suggest people care more about CC than their day to day finances is simply not true.

Besides, those who research climate change, and therefore provide the info, are being paid to do so.

As Barnaby Joice so rightly says, if you continue to pay people to research, they will.

If Aus stopped exporting, (not that we should) our emissions would reduce greatly.

So we need to put things into prospective when talking about emissions reduction, because if we stop exporting, someone else will, and chances are, their processes may not be as clean as ours.
Posted by rehctub, Saturday, 23 November 2013 1:53:44 PM
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Poirot,
So, if you see all the things you mentioned then how do you explain all those academic experts (who also can apparently see everything) grabbing all the goodies that come from all these abhorrent practises, without any feeling of guilt whatsoever ? On the contrary, they always keep bleating for more without giving those who provide it all a second thought. These academic experts are so concerned about the environment but do nothing themselves other than bludge their way through life by bull$hitting everyone & each other with figures they can't really stack up against reality.
Posted by individual, Saturday, 23 November 2013 3:02:25 PM
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Lego made a good point earlier. According to fairy land dwellers -
Climate scientists - GOOD
GM crop scientists - BAD
Nuclear Scientists - BAD
Posted by Sparkyq, Saturday, 23 November 2013 3:15:43 PM
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Poirot,

Maybe what browns a lot of people off is the suspicion that Australia, with 23 million, probably produces far less CO2 than the Shanghai region.

After all, so much of China is not all that industrialised and so those areas wouldn't produce much CO2 at all, but with the industrialised areas, it would be a very different story: massive amounts. Averaging it all out gives the impression that 'China' produces less CO2 per head than 'Australia'.

Just an observation.

Cheers :)

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Saturday, 23 November 2013 6:15:40 PM
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I think it might be time to allow the warmers to withdraw gracefully. They sport the scars of sustained conflict as a badge of honor, they fought valiantly for the cause, inflicted much damage on industrialized democracies and can now retire at a job well done.

It must be painful for them to watch the debacle in Warsaw knowing that the attendees are the last of the rear guard troops scavenging the battlefield for a few trophies, a “Tee shirt” here, a “save the planet” plastic cup there and perhaps a “Show bag” of NGO brochures. These can be stapled to their airline boarding passes and filed along with other memorabilia in an old shoebox under the heading “This was what I did before I was mature enough to separate reality from fiction”.

The Warsaw round of IPCC gabfest was hit with more bad news than all the previous events put together but attendee’s still tell us this is just a flesh wound.

Australia sent only bureaucrats with a mandate to pay nothing and agree to nothing, whilst tabling the repeal of the CO2 Tax in Parliament and announcing a review of our RET commitments. Japan pulls the pin on their RET’s, Canada publicly agrees with both, the Polish host fires its Climate Change minister and replaces him with the Minister for Fracking, the G77 “give me your money” group walks out and British PM David Cameron issues instructions to “get rid of this green crap”.

Add to this the demise of Kyoto Protocol in December 2012, the collapse of the emissions trading markets, Germany announcing 10 new coal fired power stations by 2016, three of them to burn Lignite. The 90% collapse of the RENNIX renewables industrial index, the closure of Siemens Solar with losses of Euro 1 bn, the collapse of public subsidies in renewables, the withdrawal of private equity markets from renewable projects.

Bankruptcies include Beacon Power Corp, Ener1, Evergreen Solar, Solyndra, SpectraWatt, Babcock and Brown, CHINA'S Suntech, Mountain Plaza Inc and Solar Millennium.

How would you feel if associated with this level of “success”?
Posted by spindoc, Sunday, 24 November 2013 12:23:40 PM
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Highly amusing...

Loudmouth overlooks the fact that China supplies the West with cheap goods (and props up economies with them) - so the West has a huge stake in China's CO2 emissions.

spindoc reckons that sustainability is a failure because the Neolibs have got their way and ambushed progress.

That's like saying that AGW is false because the Oz Libs got elected and people like "no-science" Greg Hunt have veracity because they source their climate science from the IPA and Wikipedia.

Joke!
Posted by Poirot, Sunday, 24 November 2013 12:49:43 PM
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Poirot,

You can always take out the bit about the LNP if that offends you. Then you take another look and see if the global situation looks any better for the warmers.

If your science is so solid, can you explain how all the things I listed have gone or gone belly up?

You would have to explain how the Neolibs have ambushed each of these separate entities? Should make interesting reading.

Of course you can always resort to the rogues last refuge, blame everyone and everything else except your science. I don’t have an explanation for you but on the other hand, I’m not looking for one, you are
Posted by spindoc, Sunday, 24 November 2013 1:32:10 PM
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Poirot, my dear, it is you who is overlooking facts. Yes, China indeed supplies cheap goods to the reat of the world. That does not mean we have a "huge stake" it what they emit.

Sustainability is a failure because it is not sustainable. The sustainability industry relies upon the coal fired power and non renewables for it's products.

The AGW industry is continually shooting itself in the foot and planting said shot foot in its mouth. Our own, recently privatised, "climate commissioner", "our dams will never fill again", Flannery is a perfect example.
Posted by Sparkyq, Sunday, 24 November 2013 1:32:34 PM
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Darcy,
Can you answer the following question or find somebody who can?

Has AGW – Kyoto – IPCC - climate science, measured and assessed photosynthesis-linked warmth in ocean macro and micro algae plant matter proliferated by land use and sewage nutrient pollution?

Perhaps consider algae where ice is reported as melting more than usual:
http://news.stanford.edu/news/2012/june/arctic-algal-blooms-060712.html

Can algae plant matter be justifiably ignored while plant matter chewed in cud is measured in AGW science?
Posted by JF Aus, Sunday, 24 November 2013 7:54:40 PM
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Yar, spindoc...

Perhaps someone should tell China that carbon pricing is on the way out.

http://www.climateinstitute.org.au/articles/media-briefs/china-launching-two-more-carbon-markets.html

"This year China has ramped up its efforts to cut carbon and air pollution through carbon trading, renewable energy investment and caps on coal use. Various industry analysts predict that Chinese coal consumption could peak by 2020 and then decline.

Carbon markets in Shanghai and Beijing to launch in coming days.

It is expected that Shanghai will launch an emission trading scheme on 26 November, covering approximately 190 companies emitting 110-150 million tonnes of carbon dioxide (CO2). The Beijing market is set to begin on 28 November, and will cover more than 400 companies responsible for emissions from power, industry and large buildings.

China’s developing carbon markets

China is developing at least seven pilot emission trading schemes. China’s first ETS began in June, in the city of Shenzhen (pop. 7 million). The Shenzhen market covers over 800 private and public organisations responsible for 31 million tonnes of carbon pollution, or about 40 per cent of the city’s emissions."

Read more.....
Posted by Poirot, Monday, 25 November 2013 11:06:23 AM
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Interesting poirot. Google "china climate policy" and have a good read. The claims made by the CPI, ABC et all do not coincide with China's own published documents which do not mention any ETS at all. Lots of other initiatives, but no ETS.
Posted by Sparkyq, Monday, 25 November 2013 12:36:50 PM
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Poirot,

That response was completely OT both from the original article and my response to you.

I provided a short list of just some of the disasters that have happened both before and during the Warsaw round.

You slagged off the LNP so I agreed that you should remove reference to the LNP and revisit that list and asked you this question.

“If your science is so solid, can you explain how all the things I listed have gone or gone belly up?”

If you don’t have an explanation that’s fine, just say so but going OT is not a response, it’s a diversion of the thread.

Rule No 1 on OLO, “Keep Responses on Topic”,

Thanks.
Posted by spindoc, Monday, 25 November 2013 1:43:46 PM
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spindoc,

My link covered current actions to being undertaken in China.

On topic.

(Just because I don't dance to your tune doesn't mean I'm OT)
Posted by Poirot, Monday, 25 November 2013 2:23:26 PM
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Poirot.
Yes it does when spindoc's comments are rational and measured and your responses include exaggerstion and obsfucation.
Posted by imajulianutter, Monday, 25 November 2013 4:49:34 PM
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Madame Poirot,

I concede that the following sub-heading for this article could embrace what is happening in China (at the very least according to your ABC) however. The acid test must remain that of observable vs forecast as a measure of reality.

<< Support favoring climate action is surging across the globe. Domestic public demand for action is exceptionally high, and this has proven true in the latest talks at the current United Nations climate talks in Warsaw>>.

You have now left yourself open to the challenge of explaining the ‘China” relevance to the statement above.

Your challenge, should you chose to accept it, is to explain, just how this statement could possibly be true?

Maybe the thing for you to do is to write to this particular author and tell them to stop raising questions that the magnificent, intellectual, elitist, pontificating, patronizing, no answers here, intelligentsia and sod you I don’t have to answer Poirot cannot answer?
Posted by spindoc, Monday, 25 November 2013 6:40:48 PM
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Poirot.
Yes it does when spindoc's comments are rational and measured and your responses include exaggerstion and obsfucation.
Posted by imajulianutter, Tuesday, 26 November 2013 5:34:01 PM
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