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Progressive christianity's role in the new Australian political environment : Comments
By Bob Douglas, published 6/11/2013Social activism by Christians has a long and proud history. Australia needs such activism now.
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There is an erie 60s flavour to this piece. Long ago, in the 60s, it was thought that the solution to the trouble the Church found itself in re congregational size would be solved by liberal Protestantism such as out lined here. Alas, turning the church into a cause promoter did nothing to revive Christianity because it was moralistic and boring. Since the 60s theologians have breathed new life into the Church by taking the old doctrines seriously if not literally. The writer needs to catch up with the some decent theology.
Posted by Sells, Wednesday, 6 November 2013 9:10:52 AM
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What a refreshing change from the tawdry stale old nonsense that Sells promotes, and from that of the right-wing power-and-control-seeking (no-fun) fundamentalists of the Australian Christian Lobby.
The author of these two essays was fully up to date with all of the work of the scholars who attended this conference - including John Shelby Spong. Their work into the fabricated origins and institutional political purposes of the "New" Testament. He was also fully familiar at a profound depth level with the ins and outs of every aspect of Christian dogma and belief. Indeed the first essay is a summary of the findings of these scholars and of the authors profound insights too. http://www.dabase.org/up-5-1.htm http://www.dabase.org/up-6.htm The Up? book was the first edition of what became the book introduced here: http://www.adidaupclose.org/books/pneumaton.html Posted by Daffy Duck, Wednesday, 6 November 2013 9:58:04 AM
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I agree that Jesus was a “radical social reformer and a wise prophet”, but the Christian left often displays the same ideological blinkers as the Christian right in presuming that Jesus would endorse their particular political agendas.
Of course, if you already believe that population growth is unsustainable, we’re heading for imminent famine, AGW is destroying the planet, and capitalism comprises an endless unsustainable pursuit of consumption, then Christianity can easily be brought to bear in critiquing these issues. But there is nothing in Christianity itself which leads to these conclusions - or indeed which contradicts them, if you happen to start from a different ideological stance. I also think Bob slides too readily between the liberal theology of John Robertson et al, and the leftist political agenda he espouses. Of course, there are links. Biblical literalists and evangelicals tend to be more socially conservative and prioritise issues such as family values (equally without warrant, in my view), while theological liberals are more likely to ask what a Christian response to modern understandings of issues like science, sexuality and the environment might be. I have great respect for theologians like Borg, Spong and Robertson who have tried to grapple with a credible Christianity for modern times. But I see a huge difference between these and the likes of Sallie McFague, who simply tailor their faith to suit and reinforce their ideological prejudices. I suspect Bob is closer to the latter approach. Posted by Rhian, Wednesday, 6 November 2013 1:18:18 PM
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I wonder how those 'theologians' who have been assimilated by Prof Borg reconcile the idea of progress with the firm conviction that Rules for Everything were laid down by a magic carpenter and his fairy dad nearly 2000 years ago, and that deviating from them by any jot or tittle will bring down a far worse punishment than mere social achievements can possibly compensate for.
Either you eat your own dog food or you don't, Bob. If you don't, you're just an atheist in disguise. The reason Christianity is in decline across the west is largely because sensible intelligent people like yourself are realising it's not compatible with civilised, intelligent, effective behaviour. Posted by Jon J, Wednesday, 6 November 2013 2:25:35 PM
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After 5000 years or so the best the god deniers can come up with is the unscientific idiotic notion that we are here by chance. And to think that they call themselves 'progressives'. In denying the very obvious (ie their Creator) they show how closed minded and foolish their thinking is. No doubt the 'Christianity'that Prof Bob Douglas epouses is dying like every other idiotic man made theory. The gospel message of salvation and hope is still very much alive in this country and throughout the world. Despite the likes of High prisest like Dawkins chucking tantrums and the pseudo science religion many are still coming to faith in the living God. Anyone thinking God has left the throne is ignorant to history, ignorant to prophecy and ignorant to the risen Christ.
Posted by runner, Wednesday, 6 November 2013 5:05:57 PM
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"The Christian church in Australia is in serious trouble. Church attendance is declining across the Western world. Church leaders have been ignoring sexual abuse by their clergy for decades....The idea of a personal God "out there in the stratosphere" pulling our puppet strings and taking a particular interest in our individual transgressions, now seems nonsensical to many of us who were brought up in the tradition of the church."
Exactly! Well said Bob. You have written a fine article that explains how I feel in many areas of this Christianity debacle. Runner, Christianity may well have been around for 5000 years, but many other religions, and beliefs in other Gods , have been around for a lot longer than that. So shouldn't we put more credence in the 'stories ' about Buddha, Allah or Mohamed then? I have no problems with the comfort that believing in these gods brings to their followers, but I do have a problem with involving any religion or god with politics, in our increasingly secular society. Posted by Suseonline, Wednesday, 6 November 2013 8:39:29 PM
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'Runner, Christianity may well have been around for 5000 years, but many other religions, and beliefs in other Gods , have been around for a lot longer than that. '
Susie please check your facts before mouthing off. Christianity was birthed after the resurrection. In case you did not notice the gw religion has cost the tax payer billions. Also the killing of unborn by those of secular faith has not just been barbaric but is funded by the taxpayer. To insist that belief systems be kept out of Government is idiotic and impossible. Look at the destruction done by those holding to the creed of the emily's listers. In case you have not noticed the more secular we become the more our policies are based on unscientific nonsense. Posted by runner, Wednesday, 6 November 2013 9:52:45 PM
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Runner,
Are you not concerned that your hatred and intolerance is ensuring that you will spend eternity in hell with the baby killers and infidels, according to your own belief? Or do you actually believe you will go to heaven if you died today? Perhaps you need to get of your pedestal and focus on your own flaws. Posted by Stezza, Thursday, 7 November 2013 2:06:25 AM
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<..Australia needs such activism now.>>..
yes..but the sleepers..must awake http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6040&page=0#175453 but be awoken..gently..by..love [under grace/mercy/equality../under good] jesus refuted*..both judgment day plus resection..'day'.. as jesus reveals..summarily/in..the acim http://miraclevision.com/acim/urtext/acim-urtext-2003-upe-ready-edition.pdf any action..must be..*unifying..[non-vilifying] cast grace/mercy..not old bones nor stones[they arre but suited to found a dead church..not restore the divided 'body'..of the christ as we rise so will..he arise [as revealed by..our* works not..churchy churlish creed/greed perks][nor extremist jerks] Posted by one under god, Thursday, 7 November 2013 9:20:13 AM
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sazz/terra-tezz-RA..quote..<<..
Are you not concerned..>> of course..or else we would sit idel <<that your hatred and intolerance>> thats a curious..but true thought [the LINKAGE. but/not when..cast as a slur..upon the pointed addressed addessee..its bias/errant pre-judice YES those of hatred..and intolerance.... <<is ensuring..that THEY* will spend>>.. spend? thats the clue..to..an error..those in hell.. pre spent/over spent..thus earned..as they never learned. spend<<.. eternity..in hell >> lets get that LIE*..out of our minds..tezza EVEN..in hell..god remains besides us unseen..EVERYONE* yes god..is even..in hell..<<with the baby killers and infidels,>> as well as those with no beliwf..in*him miss-belief*<..misscreation..<<according to your own belief?>> judge not..lest ye be adjudged..wrongly by the same error..by..the same measure[me assure] <<..Or do you actually believe..you will go to heaven if you died today?>> i*know im not ready..to forgive all the pre-requisite..to*GET grace..is first*..to give it i cant forgive..so.i cant be forgiven till i..realise forgiveness..od OTHER..as well as self..*MUST BE TOTAL* <<..Perhaps you need to get of your pedestal and focus on your own flaws.>> only god is perfect tezza..you aint got god either.. but heck we got eternity..to figure it out ps..i know..im bound for hell if only..i...could..for-give..but its not my time..to/be fore-given] Posted by one under god, Thursday, 7 November 2013 9:43:28 AM
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Stezza
suddenly you believe in absolutes and heaven and hell? Amazing. Posted by runner, Thursday, 7 November 2013 9:54:09 AM
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Are you unable to answer my question?
Posted by Stezza, Thursday, 7 November 2013 11:55:10 PM
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hi bob..your/quote<<..Breaking out of the straitjacket..imposed by church hierarchies..and restrictive creeds,>>
lets make this a case in point just our lives/loves/hates..is the real..miracle why accept the delusion..of christ giving drunks booze or of 5 fish..or 7..or a few loaves..of breaD CAN FEED 5000 these two examples..of miracles.. can only happen..in..the minds of the ignorant you will of course be aware..that back in..those times..mealtime lasted near 4 hours..and that a special ritual..[doctrine off clean-hands..[via the rite of hand washing..[in 7 jars]..stages..reflecting the accent into heaven.. was deemed vital.. its clear jesus apostles..knew not of the ritual/creed[as revealed by the eating of the shewbread[with..un-cleanhands..revealed]..regardless FOR THE TRUE BELIEVERS..to eat with..unclean hands was unthinkable [so sitting them opposite each other..on a dusty hill..hours walking time away from these ESSENTIAL[for thhe rite][ie handwash jars..ENSURES FEW IF ANY..would eat..anything.[but in the spirit of the occasion..will offer..any food/they themselves couldst not eat] the real teaching was..that people ARE SO FIXATED.. by the rote/ritual..they..miss the messiah..for the dead trees[imagery] anyhow withour mind full of imagery.. lets go back and see..the wedding at cana seven basins of progressivly cleaner water..but regardless..the end wash basin..is still filthy..still essentially toil-et water would you seve..even..the best wine from a toilet? neither did the servants..! on jesus saying..its not my time..[in fact i couldnt care less..if you gave your masters guests..that there toilet water..? the servants did what any servant..[unwilling for his mater to lose face would do..and gave the weeding guests the masters best plonk. having drunk already the bought booze..there were drunks just like today..too many are drunk..on fear hate anger hurt [all them fears you noted but you fear mindlessly [without regarding gods living loving infinitude's] Posted by one under god, Friday, 8 November 2013 8:02:34 AM
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jesus dont give booze to drunks..[KNOW THIS FOR CERTAIN}
but the issue is much clearer..on the mount.. [but only..to those knowing/the dangers of fixated creed] i..know its tempting to..add..feed the hungry but there..is no food shortage..nor any other shortage there is only..a shortage of the means..to pay..for the needed service thats why i saw the solution..of revv 22;2 created gods money system..but no one cares or gives a damm its called wikiseed/wikigeld its real-money..[once some church says it is its based on..the seed..from the tree of life..seed you can eat or you can distill..into..fuel even..make clothing from[in fact the true fruits of hemp-seed=35,000 thats even..more than the 12 mentioned in revelations..the design..on the mount..revealed..the tree..and lest we forget genesis 1;28/29 i..give you every SEED/bearing plant but creed has made you all deaf dumb..and blind thats what will hurt all of mankind..if things dont change fast it just needs you to set up the bank and our christian bank..will go..out..and feed the world but first..you..need to awake satans lies run deep Posted by one under god, Friday, 8 November 2013 8:03:39 AM
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this video..sums it up
in..under 3 minutes http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhXTolQ9SLE 'you shall..hear of wars..and rumors off wars' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJIeU46BijM what means..war..to the peace bringer? banking crimes..the money changers http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/bankersinonechunk.php http://12160.info/profiles/blogs/the-left-right-paradigm-is Posted by one under god, Saturday, 9 November 2013 4:40:08 PM
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Jon J writes:
"I wonder how those 'theologians' who have been assimilated by Prof Borg reconcile the idea of progress with the firm conviction that Rules for Everything were laid down by a magic carpenter and his fairy dad nearly 2000 years ago ... Either you eat your own dog food or you don't, Bob. If you don't, you're just an atheist in disguise. ..." Jon J has in mind a use of the Christian tradition that requires belief in selected parts of the Bible, as interpreted by centuries of dogmatic overlay. Such a belief was pressed on me by my family and by the religious communities of my early years. I have long since come to reject the often contradictory claims that were thus pressed on me. One can find in the Bible a coherent belief system only on an interpretative overlay in which St Paul and John of Patmos trump all that went before. In particular, St Paul trumps Ecclesiastes, Amos and St James, and even a large part of the claimed sayings of Jesus. I reject the supremacy of St Paul, and I reject all such dogmatic uses of Christian literature. But I remain in a strong sense a product of a tradition in which the Bible and Christian writers have a large place. The often incoherent answers are no longer credible, for me as for Bob. The questions do however remain, and their importance is undiminished. Am I a member of the Christian tradition? Yes! Am I an atheist? I do not believe in any of the Gods that are on offer. Does that make me an atheist? Why should the "Bible-believing" evangelicals determine how the Christian tradition is to be used? Posted by John Md, Sunday, 10 November 2013 7:39:44 AM
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doctor/john/quote..<<..Am I a member of the Christian tradition?>>
the statements you made..would..refute..it but i was the root..of all your later beliefs/disbeliefs yet..you much like the agnistic jew.. are of the christain tradition*..no longer of its faiths[yet till subject to its miss-creation's] buiti see you replyyour own questions <<..Yes! Am I an atheist?>> only you can..know what you are but know..[you are more than a lable] <<..I do not believe in any/of the Gods that are on offer.>> as runner would rightly point out...you are god [its not..what we think..god to be..but that god gave us a choice..to live like we want to be] <<..does that make you an atheist>> only you can decide what is true for you id say agnostic..by each of the options..include its antithesus [ie thiest/gnostic]..both relious terms..[not god terms/qualities] your specific title..would need include the god qualities you reject atheos=no gods at all alog0-ic=rejects the concept of logus[god logic] if you reject god giving and sustaining all living..please present proof of how you are doing this[or how science says its doing it] thing is natural/nature/nurture..are all god or self selection thus not science selection <<..Why should the "Bible-believing" evangelicals determine how the Christian tradition is to be used?>> the squeaky wheel demands the lucra by any means they can.. [evil..has more passion..to do its vile Posted by one under god, Sunday, 10 November 2013 8:38:38 AM
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A response to 'under one god'.
I do wish you would make some minimal effort to proofread your comments. The mis-typings and random insertions of extra letters makes them almost unintelligible. There is a well-engineered 'preview' facility. Why not use it? Posted by John Md, Sunday, 10 November 2013 8:54:31 AM
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hi docter john
wow two posts http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/user.asp?id=66728 lets see if its..all.. just a troll or you have specific points you wish to make i..thought you were sincere..about you but looks like you want to make it about me offer refused Posted by one under god, Sunday, 10 November 2013 9:25:59 AM
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suseonline, "I have no problems with the comfort that believing in these gods brings to their followers, but I do have a problem with involving any religion or god with politics, in our increasingly secular society"
Nonsense, you routinely launch vicious diatribes mocking and trashing Christian churches and their congregations. However, Islam is different somehow. The Far Left and feminists do not criticise Muslim political lobbying funded by government out of taxpayers' $$ and with a direct line to the Minister of the day. They get the large foot in the door under Labor. You would support Muslim demands for women only bathing at public pools and beaches, amendment of traffic regulations to allow restrictive garb that hinders vision and identification and so on. However you would be vehemently opposed to John Howard's definition of the Australian secular State that recognises the significant place that Christianity has in Australian culture and traditions. Howard's secular State with sensitivity to our inherited, valuable cultural traditions bears much in common with the social consensus on religion that seems to apply in The Simpsons. Australians would be less religious than many Americans are said to be though. I find a lot of humour in religion. There is a lot of enduring good in the Christian congregations and most church leaders. Fortunately the Christians generally have a good sense of humour and the capacity for self-criticism - which are lacking in the whining authoritarian Left and censorious feminists. Tolerance. Posted by onthebeach, Sunday, 10 November 2013 3:16:20 PM
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anyhow..i need to vent
im watching..fruits of a mere cyclone..in some far off lands im watching yanki planes..land empty..just to evacuate the elites the poor i see groveling arround..forced to loot and plunder..just to sstay alive it seems the aid..isnt getting through but lets carpet bomb the poor wretches shelter water and food ONLY THeN..can they land..to evacuate the exploiting rich..running off to a dry nest its really a shame the docter bit at me he has good things to say..instead simply went away lets shame these christians docter..the pooor sick..and rejected..are caLLING OUT TO YOU cause god knows im..illiterate Posted by one under god, Wednesday, 13 November 2013 10:32:17 AM
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here is a small thing..THE POPE COULD EXPOSE*
http://www.google.com.au/search?q=mutaion+birth+defect+heavy+metal leads..to graphic photo's..of du..phosher/children http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3651890 more in depth..study..of du http://raniakhalek.com/2013/03/20/u-s-turns-a-blind-eye-to-iraqi-birth-defects-worse-than-hiroshima/ Al Jazeera’s Dahr Jamail reports that contamination from U.S. weapons, particularly Depleted Uranium (DU) munitions, has led to an Iraqi health crisis of epic proportions. “[C]hildren being born with two heads, children born with only one eye, multiple tumours, disfiguring facial and body deformities, and complex nervous system problems,” are just some of the congenital birth defects being linked to military-related pollution. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/30/faulluja-birth-defects-iraq today, 14.7 percent of Fallujah’s babies are born with a birth defect, 14 times the documented rate in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Fallujah’s babies have also experienced heart defects 13 times the European rate and nervous system defects 33 times that of Europe. That comes on top of a 12-fold rise in childhood cancer rates since 2004. Furthermore, the male-to-female birth ratio is now 86 boys for every 100 girls, indicating genetic damage that affects males more than females. According to a study published in the Bulletin of Environmental Contamination and Toxicology, a professional journal based in the southwestern German city of Heidelberg, there was a sevenfold increase in the number of birth defects in Basra between 1994 and 2003. Official Iraqi government statistics show that, prior to the outbreak of the First Gulf War in 1991, the rate of cancer cases in Iraq was 40 out of 100,000 people. By 1995, it had increased to 800 out of 100,000 people, and, by 2005, it had doubled to at least 1,600 out of 100,000 people. Current estimates show the increasing trend continuing. As Grist’s Susie Cagle points out,.. http://grist.org/news/thanks-for-the-oil-iraq-heres-some-cancer/ “That’s potentially a more than 4,000 percent increase in the cancer rate,..making it more than 500 percent higher than the cancer rate..in the U.S.“ more http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3659185 Posted by one under god, Friday, 15 November 2013 6:45:57 PM
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