@Suseonline. You mentioned 'gay activists' I quoted a well known one. Doesn't mean all homosexuals are radicalised.

'Marriage' has to be defined. There's no reason to abstract the word from its ground in the sexes, procreation, nature, the body, law, tradition and Christianity; and shackle it to 'strong emotion' and the number 2. Neither of which can hold (polyamorists and Muslims will see the number 2 as unjust discrimination if conjugal view is 'bigotry' "motivated by animus" !).

Let's talk seriously, marriage has been eviscerated http://dalrock.wordpress.com/ and very few homosexuals want to adopt the moral norms of marriage, ('pride' at being non-bourgeois). They don't take to it where it is legal for the reasons Dalrock shows.

This is not a homosexual issue, despite media attempts, wouldn't get a hearing without the culture class elite [See RR Reno above] We don't hear from ex-gays or gays against redefinition of marriage. It is a ruling class assimilation of power, a cosmological religious turn and noone wants to discuss the ramifications. E.g doing away with the natural law, which isn't specifically Christian but has been stewarded.

Christians may or may not be inspired to stand up for the majority. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9129750/Poll-suggests-70pc-oppose-gay-marriage.html but it isn't a Christian issue per se, it's a civil society issue.

The state *is* seperate from churches constitutionally, a reason Muslims give for the weakness of Christianity which combines the deity and politics, what we're moving to now. http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2013/04/tocqueville-for-tax-day/ Same-sex marriage means a regress to pre-Christian type. A degraded type, flat and violent - absent the leaven and light of Christianity. See Pope Benedict XVI Regensburg lecture on the low veiw atheist secularism and Islam have for reason, both are voluntaristic (there is no order or nature of things, only will/desire - the individual as sovereign or Allah as sovereign).

Our new religion will not brook competitors. We have a deranged ruling class, CAGW, Iraq adventures, GFC etc they're closed in on themselves.[Their propaganda arm, the ABC doesn't have a single conservative in a broadcast role].

"The best essay on modern freedom I've read" Scott Stephens ABC Rel&Ethics http://www.abc.net.au/religion/articles/2013/05/20/3763423.htm

amend:

*seperation of church and state is grounded in Christian teaching "my kingdom is not of this world [the kingdom of God]" "render unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar, render unto God what belongs to God". This seperation is seen as a weakness by the Islamic tradition and proof of Christianity's falsehood"

Religious cults all rest on compulsions and prohibitions. So do states. Both the cults and the states apply these rules to individuals. Application of the rules limits the liberty of the individuals to whom it applies. Cults and states differ in the foundation of the rules and the class of individuals to whom they apply.

Cults base their rules on assertions, proclaimed by clerics of this or that ilk without recourse to demonstrable evidence, about the will of a god or gods hidden from all but the power-seeking or gullible. The currency of cults is codification of the rules and their enforcement either by persuasion or by something stronger. In a decent society respectful of humanity the rules of religious cults apply only to individuals who freely consent to follow them.

There are at least two in this thread who would regard this individual liberty as a terrifying evil empire and would rather die than have it apply to non-believers. Much more than two if one also counts those who couldn’t feel secure in their relationships if homosexuals were accorded the same freedom. There’s a Pearly Gates joke about that, too ribald for this forum.

States base their rules on universally enforceable laws enacted to protect the liberty of each individual from abridgement by other individuals and to protect the commons. In a secular state, every individual is protected by law from coercive abridgement through religious compulsions and prohibitions of his or her civil liberties, including freedom of speech. The spirit of liberty is in collision even in Australia with that of theocratic tyranny. Even on this thread.

The question, Julian, is whether any of what you call a 'religious cult' is indeed religious or whether it only pretends to be religious.

Religious progress can only be attained by freely choosing to do good and reject evil. If one gets no evil option to reject, then they cannot progress, then they do not get any religious merit by taking the only remaining path - even if that exact same path could otherwise, if freely chosen, possibly lead another person closer to God.

If anyone, myself included, attempts to enforce their religious beliefs and practices on another either against their will or through deceit, then they are not truly religious.

Separation of church and state is a two-way road: the churches don't interfere in state matters and the state does not interfere in religious practices.

As the secular state is blind to spiritual matters and has no way/mechanism whatsoever to discern which practices of its citizens are religious and which are not, it follows that the state must not interfere with ANY practices and allow its citizens to do whatever they like, giving them the benefit-of-the-doubt that their practices may be religious (of course the state would still not allow practices that hurt other citizens, but that's food for another topic).

Religious people should be at the spear-head, the first to demand and fight for individual liberties.

@EmperorJulian. Ok ok you have my attention.

I tend to think Moldbug would be of benefit to you, if you're brave enough to take the red pill:

"I'm afraid .. we do have a state church. It just doesn't call itself that. By this simple twitch of the hips, like a receiver dodging a linebacker, it has faked your intellectual immune system off its feet. Not to worry! Our red pill is here to help."

http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com.au/2009/01/gentle-introduction-to-unqualified.html

It wouldn't help to explain that a true theocracy executed Our Lord on Good Friday would it? Pointing you to expert mediaevalists, jurists and philosophers?
-Remi Brague, internal link 'Are Non-Theocratic Regimes Possible?' http://ethikapolitika.org/2012/03/21/sacred-ambivalence-reflection-remi-bragues-are-non-theocratic-regimes-possible/
-PBXVI 'A Listening Heart: Reflection on the Foundation of Law' to German Parliament http://www.abc.net.au/religion/articles/2011/09/23/3324937.htm

Probably not.

**
Julian was naive http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2010/08/julian-our-contemporary If you have a taste for tragedy it is being wasted.

And if you're not a true Pagan like Julian, likely libertarian, as edgy young things tend to be, you'll have to drop the maverick routine - you're the establishment my friend. http://www.theamericanconservative.com/two-nations-under-mammon/

And if you want to substitute our cult/ure at least understand what one is, whose discipline you accept now and its costs, and what is shaping your personality today http://www.firstprinciplesjournal.com/articles.aspx?article=1815 'After Liberalism' Kalb. Then you might help to reconstruct a viable one, stolen before you were born, with the guidance of the luminous, Christopher Dawson, and Philip Rieff 'Toward a Theory of Cutlure' 1966 http://www.firstprinciplesjournal.com/articles.aspx?article=1098&loc=r

And search out a variety of voices re: same-sex 'marriage'. Ex-gay porn actor

"Sciambra: At its core, I believe the push for gay marriage is a political ruse foisted upon the gay community by the Democrats and some within the elite liberal gay-lobby movement. Back in the early 1990s, when I was an out and proud gay man, I saw this same thing happen with DADT [Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell policy] in the military. It became a political rallying-cry in which the gay community could lock-step behind; even though this policy affected relatively very few gay men or women.
http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/gay-porn-actor-left-it-all-for-jesus-after-near-death-experience

God speed and turn off your TV
http://prezi.com/6gusii8btxjf/i-shop-therefore-i-am/
http://prezi.com/9pixrztrnqaj/the-economy-since-1947/
http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2011/07/will-there-be-zombies/