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The Forum > Article Comments > Praying for peace in Jerusalem > Comments

Praying for peace in Jerusalem : Comments

By Andrew Williams, published 23/9/2013

Palestinian Christians identify as the ‘living stones’ that are seeking to cry out to the rest of the world about the ongoing effects of the occupation of their lands.

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While I am very sympathetic to your cause, it is futile expecting relief anytime soon. As there is in fact, no God out there to help you, praying is a useless exercise. Even if there were, the right wing Christians and the Jews would have Him on their side.

The state of Israel has the world financial system by the short and curlies, so you won't get any support from any of the major players.

David
Posted by VK3AUU, Monday, 23 September 2013 11:04:37 AM
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Preying is something the Israelis excel at! Much like the Americans really!

When is Preying going to be banned? When are the Predators going to get sent packing, made to pay for their war crimes and the damage they cause.

Preying should be stopped immediately. It is uncivilized.

It will lead to a nuclear holocaust soon.
Posted by David G, Monday, 23 September 2013 11:18:30 AM
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If I had a penny for 1% of all unheard prayers, I would be richer than the oracle from Omaha.
If even just 1% of all our combined prayers actually worked, our world would be a peaceful paradise, where the was no want or war!
Some of the older wiser Palestinians have given up on the 2 state solution, and are simply asking their Jewish masters, for an equal vote in the so-called democracy of Israel.
If they achieve just that much, and what possible excuse could the democracy loving Jews put, for ever denying them what other Israeli Palestinians already have as a basic right!
With an equal vote, a completely passive Palestine only need bide their time for a very few years, before they effectively outnumber the voting Jewish population of Israel.
At which time they can elect Leaders, who will be much more conducive to the sort of outcomes the Palestinian population want?
Perhaps with the legally enforced repatriation of stolen land being first legislated cab off of the rank.
Yes, that outcome may take say around a decade.
But hey, it has a far better chance of succeeding or redressing old wrongs, than an endless blood sacrifice, that may well see the Jewish population maintain its numerical superiority, or give them just the excuses they need to deny their Palestinian population an equal vote!
Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Monday, 23 September 2013 12:01:10 PM
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When will you become tired of trotting out the same old ill-informed mis-information? You would use your time better if you bothered to look at the facts rather play to the hate-mongers.
Posted by jet, Monday, 23 September 2013 3:16:20 PM
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another church leader that twist history and ignores Scripture. We are all occupying until we meet our Maker which just happens to be the Holy One of Israel. Israel is actually the only nation whose land was promised by God. People or nations fighting against God's chosen all come out second best in the long run. Could you imagine how miserable the lives of the Palestinians living in Israel would be if they were governed by their own people. Miserable I suggest.
Posted by runner, Monday, 23 September 2013 4:35:09 PM
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I am surprised that the Synod General Secretary for the Uniting Church in Australia would write an article that is so political and so factually inaccurate. Just a couple of what could be many corrections:

Jerusalem became the city of history as part of the Jewish kingdom of David.It was a Jewish city in which Jesus walked; remember the Romans called him "King of the Jews". Jews have lived in Jerusalem continuously despite the Roman expulsion and subsequent history. The claim that "Palestinians have always lived in Jerusalem and for whom the city has has been a regional capital for millennia" is a recent attempt to rewrite history which has no factual basis and is straight out of the Fatah education syllabus.

The UN proposed a partition plan for the British Mandated area of Palestine. There has never been a Palestinian state. The partition plan provided that Jerusalem was to be an international zone. The Jewish leadership accepted the plan but it was rejected by the Arabs. At the end of the British mandate, Israel declared its independence over the land allocated to it and was immediately invaded by the armies of Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and Iraq. At the end of that war,Israel controlled the area known as west Jerusalem. It was the Arab armies invasion that was a "flagrant violation" of the partition plan.

Given these fundamental historical errors, and the language used by the author in expressing them, there can be little faith in the accuracy of anything else in the article as well.
Posted by Malcolmpb, Monday, 23 September 2013 5:05:20 PM
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Jerusalem is a holy city solely because of Judaism. Christianity inherits this Biblical tradition, it did not originate it but like so much else in Christianity derives it solely from the Jews and the Jewish religion. Muhammad likewise derived a great deal of his own religion from Judaism. There is no explicit mention however of Jerusalem in the Qur'an, and it has been largely ignored for the whole past millenium. It never was a Muslim cultural centre, just a backwater town in ruins. Muslim pilgrimage to it was rare. It never was a capital of a Muslim kingdom or province, and there was certainly no Arab state of "Palestine" at any time. For centuries the Jews have been the largest single group in Jerusalem. They became the outright majority in the 19th century. Today there are twice as many Jews resident there as all non-Jews together.

Literally the only time that the worship of all three faiths has been fully respected and supported, in the past two thousand years, has been under the recent Israeli sovereignty. Before that time, Jewish shrines and synagogues were trashed or appropriated by both Christian and Muslim authorities, and Christian churches and shrines by Muslim ones.

Rev. Williams claims to want a just peace and an end to conflict. Alas, displacement theology, and complicit silence about Palestinian antisemitic hate-incitement and glorification of terrorism, in schools, pulpits, media and political declarations, and one-sided blaming of Israel, only encourages bloodshed. If the Secretary General really wants peace, I invite him, and the Uniting Church generally, to join Jews in demanding the Palestinians drop their governmental decree that there are no Jewish holy sites or roots anywhere in the Holy Land. This makes a lie out of the Jewish Bible, presence and State: peace is then impossible. Christian Scriptures testify to Jewish holy sites, including the Temple Mount, so not only Judaism and Jews are slandered, but Christians and Christianity as well. Jews and Christians working together for peace rather than against each other can make a real difference.
Posted by Sadler, Monday, 23 September 2013 10:04:17 PM
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Palestinians of East-Jerusalem are permanent residents of Israel.

This implies that they may buy property and live anywhere in Israel they like, including Western-Jerusalem, Tel Aviv and the Israeli-Arab towns and villages. It also implies that they can apply at any time for Israeli citizenship. Obtaining citizenship takes on average 22 months and involves:

1. Producing documents, including proof of living in Israel for at least 3 out of the last 5 years.
2. Surrendering one's Jordanian citizenship.
3. An interview which includes an easy test of one's basic Hebrew-language skills.
4. Passing security and police clearance checks.
5. Declaring allegiance to the state of Israel.

Except for having to forfeit their Jordanian passport, the above is comparable to Australia (in not-too-distant history, Australia also used to demand forfeiting all other passports).

Sadly, so far out of about 400,000 only a 4-digit number of Eastern-Jerusalemites applied for Israeli citizenship. If they only cared to apply and demand their rights, then use it to vote for the Israeli Knesset (parliament) along with the other Israeli Arabs, then they could have tipped the balance and Israel could have looked so different today and so much more tolerant and peaceful.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Monday, 23 September 2013 11:53:33 PM
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One gave up on expecting factual accuracy and clear thinking from the poor old Uniting Church years ago. It's sad, really. They seem to be more interested today in 'proving' that they are still, in some way 'relevant' by catching passing (in both senses) fashionable trams.

Tonyo
Posted by tonyo, Tuesday, 24 September 2013 5:25:52 PM
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In response to Yututsu, it is a telling fact that actually a plurality of what we can loosely term East Jerusalem Arabs, including those in townships actually outside the municipality in P.A. territory, when the chips are down, and contrary to Yututsu's implied claim, prefer to be citizens of Israel, and not of any "Palestine" state established by the corrupt and violent leaders of Fatah or Hamas. This came out in a Pechter poll reported in January of 2011. Only 30% of E. Jerusalem Arabs would choose to be citizens of a prospective "Palestine," 35% elected Israeli citizenship, and the rest were "undecided" (i.e., they avoided stating their views publicly). 40% of respondents said they would even consider moving to another neighbourhood in order to become a citizen of Israel rather than Palestine, and 54% said that if their neighbourhood was assigned to Israel, they would not move from it. Actually Arabs have more freedoms and suffer less discrimination in Israel than in any other Middle Eastern country. It is particularly striking to contrast their situation with that of "Palestinian refugees" in Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, or even -- most remarkably -- in the P.A. itself (including Gaza), where "Palestinian refugees" are segregated and forbidden work and citizenship and are instead ghettoized permanently in "refugee" camps.

Yututsu also seems to think that Israel's present policies are misguided and against peace and that more Israeli Arabs might make it "better." That is rubbish. If the Palestinians want peace, the Palestinians themselves will simply have to stop their hate incitement, their glorification of terrorism and mass murder of Jews, and in short to come to terms with Israel, including acceptance that it is a Jewish state and legitimately will remain that way. That means they must also give up their "refugee right of return" demands and honestly admit that Jews do indeed have holy sites and shrines throughout the Holy Land including on the Temple Mount and at Machpeleh, etc. It is the Palestinians who have been the sole barrier to peace for two generations, including after 1994.
Posted by Sadler, Tuesday, 24 September 2013 10:24:17 PM
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Dear Sadler,

Both Jews and Palestinians are guilty of violence. One's guilt cannot be excused by their rival's.

An individual Palestinian living in Eastern Jerusalem cannot be held responsible for terrorism in Gaza. In order to become an Israeli citizen one must definitely denounce terrorism, stop hate incitement and renounce allegiance to external powers, but the extra demand to accept Israel as a Jewish state is unreasonable. As part of the internal political debate within Israel, many Israeli citizens by birth, including Jews, do not support the idea of Israel remaining a Jewish state, so why should they? This is essentially a condition on citizenship whereby one may become a citizen only if their views are closer to a particular political camp. As far as I can tell we never made similar demands in Australia.

While loyal to their new country and not compromising its security or supporting its enemies, it is perfectly valid to attempt to change the character of the state from within by democratic means.

Israelis have a perfect right to say, and reflect that in their ballots, "Yes, we once wanted a Jewish state, but it proved to be a failure, especially a moral failure, so we changed our mind and no longer wish Israel to remain Jewish". Other Israelis, especially Haredim, never even wanted a Jewish state to begin with.

As for the right of the Jews over their holy sites, if indeed they have such right, it is unrelated to sovereignty of the state of Israel over those places. The state of Israel is a secular entity and it is a superstition to believe that the territory held by a secular/civil entity can ever have religious implications. Moreover, the state of Israel neither represents all Jews, nor only Jews. Nothing for example, in principle and even according to Jewish law, prevents sovereignty over the same holy sites or any part thereof to be held by a different Jewish state.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Wednesday, 25 September 2013 12:59:14 AM
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Yuyutsu, you seem consistently to substitute your own wishes for the actual realities. That is delusional thinking. You say, with false even-handedness, that "both Jews and Palestinians are guilty of violence." But this immorally equates Israel's legitimate self-defense with the terrorist aggressions of Palestinians. Extreme bias is shown by your remark that it is debatable whether Jews have any rights over their own holy sites. You also deny that protection of Jewish sites has any necessary connection to Israel, although the Palestinians have trashed all Jewish holy sites they control, and the UN has capitulated to the Muslim lobby, with even UNESCO echoing its denial of Jewish holy sites.

You fantasize that Israelis are increasingly concluding that Israel's creation was a mistake, that it has been a failure and especially a moral failure, so they no longer wish Israel to remain Jewish. Allegedly, they "reflect that in their ballots." But in the real world, in the last elections, the usual overwhelming support went to Zionist parties: Likud's Benjamin Netanyahu continued yet again as Prime Minister. Poll after poll show that Israelis are very patriotic and proud of their country, and justifiably think it a marvellous success story, especially morally. It remains the only stable liberal democracy in the Middle East, a beacon of hope; even Israeli Arabs have more freedoms and better life conditions than in any other M-E country. Israeli innovations have changed your own computer, its medical advances have improved lives around the world, its agricultural inventions have averted global famine, etc. etc. A recent UN global survey of countries ranking them in terms of human development (health, education, work, social cohesion, low crime, cultural richness, etc.) put Israel 15th out of about 180 countries, closely behind Switzerland. Israelis ranked 13th in a survey of global happiness. An Israel Hayom poll in May, 2012 reported that 93% of Israelis are proud to live there, and the majority, 70%, are "very proud." 83% planned to fly the Israeli flag from their homes or cars on Independence Day. You have a lot to learn, Yuyutsu.
Posted by Sadler, Wednesday, 25 September 2013 11:16:25 PM
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Dear Sadler,

But of course Israel needs to defend itself, which it does, and of course this is legitimate, but what has this to do with anything we discussed so far and who ever contested it?

Those assumed "holy" sites that you speak of are in fact nothing but Jewish national symbols and Israel's insistence on "protecting" them is a nationalistic act, not a religious one. There is nothing holy about old bones, which are likely not there any more and likely never been there in the first place, or likely been the bones of some Arab Sheikh - and there is nothing holy about that hill in Jerusalem which housed the largest and oldest steak-house in history, where animals were slaughtered by the hundreds every day and people came there to eat their meat.

The original steak-house was in fact built by a cruel tyrant who enforced a heavy hard-labour-tax on his people - that is why his kingdom was torn apart after his death, where 10 tribes abandoned his lineage and only his own tribe remained loyal. That same king by controlling the scribes, re-wrote history, portraying himself as the wisest-man ever, and his bloody sinful father who overthrew Israel's former righteous king and decimated his family, as a saintly musician (but somehow his censors overlooked the verse where is indicated that it was not his father that killed the giant Philistine).

So all is about Jewish national aspirations, not about religion and it's only the unholy Jewish national narrative which unashamedly and sacrilegiously attempts to conscript God to the Jewish national service.

I didn't claim that the creation of Israel was a mistake, nor even that Israelis don't want it to continue and flourish. Rather, the mistake is in the state's Jewish identity, as more and more Israelis expose the Jewish narrative for the violent forgery it is. Of course you wouldn't find this in the ultra-nationalist Yisrael Hayom paper: try Haaretz instead!
Posted by Yuyutsu, Thursday, 26 September 2013 12:53:11 PM
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Obviously my comment touched a nerve, making the mask drop for a moment to show what lies underneath -- raw, brutal Judeophobia. My reference to Israel's legitimate right to self-defense arose from your own statement equating that with Palestinian terrorism and aggression, as equally forms of "violence" to be ashamed of. So I do not believe you when you say you affirm the legitimacy of Israel's self-defense. I suspect that that self-serving plea only holds until there is any particular act of self-defense by Israel at issue, which you will immediately condemn as immoral violence or illegitimate, while excusing Palestinian atrocities of no matter what sort.

Your hateful comments on Jewish holy sites, the Jewish Scriptures, Judaism itself, and the lofty spiritual motives and moral values that have sustained the Jewish people down through the thousands of years despite the extraordinary suffering and constant material sacrifices this faithfulness has brought with it -- a testimony to deep and unwavering communal faith in transcendent realities that none of the persecuting daughter religions can equal -- puts you outside of any decent discussion. Similarly for your assertion that Zionism is based on a "Jewish narrative" that is "a violent forgery." It is all of a piece, Yuyutsu.

Judaism has changed the entire world for the better. It underlies and grounds the best teachings of Christianity and Islam, whatever may be the distortions each has introduced, modern ideologies like liberal democracy and socialism, and even many of the values claimed by atheistic humanism. What the world would be like if Moses had never lived or if the Jewish people had not preserved the Torah and later Scriptural books we can see from the Roman culture, epitomized by its love of gladitorial games and expansionary genocidal wars, lacking the prophetic critique of society inspired by the love of one universal God and the idea that every human being is in the divine image, and the idealization of peace, not war. Nazism sought precisely the de-Judaization that you want, Yuyutsu. It was a nightmare for everyone.
Posted by Sadler, Thursday, 26 September 2013 5:29:45 PM
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Dear Sadler,

I have supported Israel's right to defend itself neither once nor twice over these pages, including its right to bear nuclear weapons. I also for example supported the dividing wall which stops Palestinian terrorism - only with the caveat that it should have been built exactly over Israel's legitimate eastern border, the "green line". Built where it is now suggests lack of good intentions to move it, at high costs, once security considerations allow, thus exposing its dual purpose - one perfectly kosher, the other not.

The ingenuity of the Jewish use of myth to preserve their nation is not disputed. However, that doesn't render that myth to be true, nor suggests that its purpose is worthwhile.

Judaism changed the world - some for the better some for the worse. It is impossible to predict "what would happen if Judaism wasn't around" or whether in Judaism's absence an equivalent culture would have produced a similar effect.

"What the world would be like if Moses had never lived" is probably exactly as it is now, since most research suggests that no such man existed and others indicate that he was an Egyptian nobleman. Some, noting the similarities between Moses and Joshua suggest that Moses was invented by the Levities in order to counter the worship of Joshua by the other tribes. In any case, all agree that the famous exodus could not have happened and new research suggests that only the tribe of Levy exited Egypt while the other tribes were living in Canaan (Israel) all along.

While the contribution of Jews to humanity is not in doubt, it wasn't due to blind adherence to their national narrative. On the contrary, I believe that it was the enormous mental energy that was released upon leaving the fold which produced the greatest contributions, including by some of Israel's prophets, not to mention Jesus.

The Jewish tradition has a mix of morality with immorality. One evil doesn't justify another. While the Roman love of gladiatorial games, Palestinian terrorism and Nazism are to be condemned, so is the dark side of Judaism.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Thursday, 26 September 2013 7:01:45 PM
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As mentioned, I believe that Yuyutsu has outed himself and put himself out of all decent discussion. To return to Rev. Williams' allegations, I repeat that they are surprisingly blind to the actualities of the situation, and reflect false historical premises as well. E.g., Rev. Williams alleges that "Jesus was killed as he challenged the injustices that flowed from this city." This assumes that "the Jewish elders" or even just "the Jews" killed Jesus, not the Romans. However, the Romans were the power-holders; crucifixion was their method of execution. Pontius Pilate (whom Josephus tells us had already committed many massacres showing utter indifference to the Jewish people and their religion) actually approved the crucifixion, as even the Gospels admit. Caiaphas, the High Priest, had bought his post from Pilate, and was a Roman puppet despised by the Jews. Since Jesus was a focal point of Jewish protest and messianic hopes, the Romans killed him, just as they had over 20 other would-be messiahs in the first century. The "injustices" of which Rev. Williams speaks flowed from Rome.

Rev. Williams also errs about recent history. There was no "flagrant violation" of any law against Israel holding Jerusalem. "Internationalization" presumed peace, but the cancelling reality was war, started by the Arabs. Israel fought for Jerusalem to save its Jewish population from annihilation, as the international community stood by indifferently, disqualifying itself. Judaism's most holy sites are in Jerusalem, so this merely reaffirmed Jewish rights of residency and protection of Jewish interests utterly violated by the Arabs. The same holds for the 1967 war started by Jordan among other Arab nations, in which Israel finally won back the Old City and the Temple Mount, the Western Wall, etc.

Jerusalem was never the "regional capital for millenia" of the Palestinians. This is simply false. For a more accurate history, see the book by James Parkes (an Anglican cleric and scholar), Whose Land?: A History of the Peoples of Palestine, and as well Paul Charles Merkley, Christian Attitudes towards the State of Israel. On displacement theology, I suggest Rosemary Ruether, Faith and Fraticide.
Posted by Sadler, Thursday, 26 September 2013 8:33:07 PM
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<<As mentioned, I believe that Yuyutsu has outed himself and put himself out of all decent discussion.>>

This is an open Australian site, not Yisrael Hayom, so does everyone else here agree with Sadler that anyone who writes anything unflattering about Judaism is outed from decent discussion?

Neither the Palestinians nor the Jews are saints, both preferring their narrow national interests over having a decent peaceful life.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Thursday, 26 September 2013 9:33:13 PM
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Further to the issue of the international status of Jerusalem, it should be pointed out that this was the recommendation of the UN General Assembly in 1949, not the Security Council, and such recommendations do not have the force of international law. They are merely recommendations. However, it was not only Israel that rejected this recommendation, for reasons some of which are already indicated above. Jordan did, too. That is, the two parties in actual possession and conflict in Jerusalem rejected the recommendation, making it null and void and impossible of implementation. In an interesting chapter on this matter in the book by the then American Ambassador to Israel, James McDonald, My Mission in Israel: 1948-1951 (1951), which I just recently happened to have read, there is the comment that Israel had made several constructive suggestions to meet Christian Arab concerns which were well received at the U.N., but:

"It should also be pointed out that two fundamental facts (usually slurred over or ignored by all parties) served as an almost insurmountable obstacle to agreement. First, under the British Mandate not only Jerusalem but the whole of Palestine was in effect internationalized; and second, this workable internationalization was ended by the creation of Israel and the de facto division of Jerusalem between Israel and Jordan. Thus the demand that Jerusalem be internationalized was tantamout to the demand that the hands of the clock of history be turned back. Neither Israel nor Jordan would agree to this. And the great powers continued to be unwilling to compel them to acquiesce. Once again, as so often in history, a question of deep concern to vast numbers of people was settled, temporarily at least, by the old rule of thumb that possession is nine-tenths of the law."

This confluence of Israeli and Jordanian interests, McDonald goes on to say, led to secret peace talks between Israel and Jordan which might have changed history had not the extremists under the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem blocked them, in the end by assassinating King Abdullah of Jordan in 1951, something unanticipated by McDonald in his book.
Posted by Sadler, Friday, 27 September 2013 6:25:52 PM
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