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Dear Suseonline,

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"No one has proof of actually seeing a God, and we only have some books written by humans actually saying what Gods are supposed to have said".
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Peter Sells might have some proof. If not, what you describe is called hearsay, the hearsay of "believers".

Hearsay is rarely accepted as evidence in the courts of law of most democratic countries and the question of the existence of a God would appear to be far too important for any reasonable person to rely simply on hearsay as the sole basis of belief.

Actually, the problem is not a lack of belief, but a lack of something to believe in. Most people are willing to believe in something which exists, not in something which does not exist. That would be a bit silly.

Here is a link to hearsay:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearsay
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"Doesn't it make you wonder how us mere humans got on before these books were written, and rewritten, and amended, etc?"
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The first five books of the bible in Judaism are called the Torah, meaning "law" or "instruction", and are regarded as the most important section of the Scriptures, traditionally thought to have been written between the 16th century and the 12th century BCE by Moses himself.

That means they were written sometime less than 4000 years ago.

Whereas palaeontologists estimate that we human beings broke off from our common ancestor with the chimpanzees about five to seven million years ago.

It seems we somehow managed to "get on" for about five or six million years (give or take a million years or so) as human beings before finally being saved by those books.

Thank God we made it !

And God help those poor chimpanzee cousins of ours who still haven't learned to read yet !

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Dear Banjo,

<<Actually, the problem is not a lack of belief, but a lack of something to believe in. Most people are willing to believe in something which exists, not in something which does not exist. That would be a bit silly.>>

True, but back to square One, why this emphasis on belief? why is belief that important?

Whatever you believe in or otherwise is anyway only that, a mental process.

Religion is so vaster than that. As far as religion is concerned, belief (i.e. the generation of a particular mental process) is just one technique among many, not even the most important one. Whatever exists or doesn't exist has no bearings on religious practice, hence why do theists and atheists alike like so much to argue all the time on that moot point?

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Dear Yuyutsu,

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"why is belief that important?"
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As Richard Feynman (Nobel prize in physics, 1965) is reported to have said, "A great deal more is known than has been proved".

That "knowledge" is what we call "belief".

If our thoughts and actions in daily life were strictly limited to "what has been proved" we would be constantly "bugging" like our computers and unable to proceed to the next step.

If the truth be known, we probably operate 99% on beliefs and only1% on proven facts.

Socrates even went as far as to say, "The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing."

Life would simply not be possible without belief. Everything would come to a stop.

As a matter of fact, I had some serious concerns about you, Yuyutsu.

Your posts on this thread remind me of Alice in Wonderland crossing through the looking glass and observing:

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?”

You are a nice chap and I should like you to pay attention when you cross the street. I know you consider reality to be illusion and vice versa but, just as a special favour for me, would you be so kind as to count to ten, breathe deeply and wave your arms high above your head several times before you take that first step?

Tie a knot in your handkerchief so that you don't forget.

In the meantime, here is some more information on epistemology, the theory of knowledge, which I hope will interest you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology

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Dear Banjo,

I do not doubt for a moment that belief is necessary for human survival and material progress. Sorry for not making it clear - as the topic here is religious rather than about physical survival, I took for granted that we all refer to religion, but I should have been more explicit asking "Why this emphasis on religious belief? Why is belief that important for religion?"

I believe that when people (theists and atheists alike) equate religion with belief, they miss the whole point of what religion is about.

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Dear Poirot,

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"3 high school students suicide every week in Australia.
Why are we so unhappy with our rational world?"
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According to the Australian Bureau of Statistics, the total number of students in Australian Schools exceeds 3.5 million, with 2.3 million of those attending Government schools, compared with 700,000 at Catholic schools and 500,000 at independent schools.

According to my Casio electronic calculator, 3 suicides in 3.5 million represents 0.00008% of the student population.

Though 3 suicides a week sounds terrible, I hope I am not being too cynical in thinking that you are being a bit excessive in concluding that "we (are) so unhappy with our rational world".

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Dear runner,

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"the simple fact that athiests deny the corrupt nature of man demonstrates clearly that they are not into observing as part of their 'scientific' quest. Nothing sadder than pride and self righteousness that prevents people from turning to the Only One who can forgive their sins. Yep its ugly but mankind is rotton to the core. Thankfully God has provided a solution."

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Oh dear ! Would that be the "Final Solution" (Die Endlösung), runner ?

But who could possibly have made man " rotton to the core" like that ?

Now that you mention it, I see the rot is setting in as I grow older. As you say, too much pride and self righteousness, I guess. I'm definitely going on a diet as from tomorrow.

Do you think that will do it ?

At least, I can see my "corrupt nature" so I can't be an atheist. That's one problem out of the way !

I hope you're nicely conserved, runner, no numbing of the toes or fingers or anything like that ? Mind you, you have to watch out for the head too. They say that fish start rotting from the head.

Whatever you do, don't let it go to your head, runner !

But don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting there's anything fishy about you. That never crossed my mind.

You know me better than that !

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Banjo Paterson
"And God help those poor chimpanzee cousins of ours who still haven't learned to read yet !"
Lol! : )

Yuyitsu, I looked up 'believe' in Wikipedia, and as you agree we are discussing religion, I looked it up in the context of 'Religious Belief'. It said "...a belief regarding the supernatural, sacred, or divine." It then defined 'faith' as "...a belief in something for which there is no proof."

So, can you explain to me what you think religion is all about, because I still don't get what you mean? Faith is always discussed by religious people as something they must have?

I am not trying to upset religious people, because I know their faith is often a great comfort for them. I really don't understand the hold that religion has on some people.

I always thought it could be because people are afraid of what 'happens' after they die, and clutch onto whatever they are told by religious 'leaders' as a hope for the afterlife.

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