<< Fees would contribute to the cost of maintaining and renewing infrastructure that others had paid for. Indeed, at the current level of immigration, a fee of $50,000 would generate about $10-15 billion annually. >>

Great idea! All immigrants should definitely be required to pay this sort of fee, to cover the costs of services and infrastructure.

But how would such as fee stop the boats? And even if it did stop people-smuggling and precarious journeys on rickety boats, it would do nothing to stop asylum seeking, would it?

In fact, even with a fee several times larger than that which people smugglers demand, asylum seeking would presumably greatly increase if they were allowed to simply fly in, pay a fee, and by and large just be accepted.

Surely we want to STOP asylum seeking, not just stop the boats! We want all of our immigration to be part of our formal immigration programs, with a predetermined quota, and nothing left open-ended. And we want the refugee category of our immigration program to assist the most needy, not the somewhat less needy, which onshore asylum seekers generally are, as the author says:

< They are neither the poorest nor the most vulnerable from the societies they leave behind. >

And we need to wind immigration right back to somewhere near net zero, in the interests of a sustainable future.

continued

As far as onshore asylum seeking goes, I can’t see why our government can’t decisively deal with it. What it needs to do is assert authority and…

show that Australia is being a good humanitarian citizen via our offshore refugee programs and international aid contributions and has been for many decades,

emphasise just how much onshore asylum seeking is costing us and how fractious it is to Australian society, with a constantly worsening outlook,

emphasise how dangerous the voyages are and how many people have been lost at sea while trying to get here,

emphasise that it has big majority support within the Australian populace for a decisive stop to the boats,

and then turn the boats around!

It will be a tough deal for the small number of people caught in the middle. But then they WILL stop coming, and many thousands will be saved from the ravages of people-smugglers and extremely risky sea voyages in small overcrowded unseaworthy boats. Potentially thousands of lives would be saved.

If this means withdrawing from the archaeic 1951 refugee convention, then so be it.

"and then turn the boats around!"

I always wonder what people actually mean when they say this. Is is literally turning their boat around 180 degrees and shouting "go on, get outta here!"

I just can't practically think how this would work. There would have to be protocols in place in case the above doesn't work. What happens if they refuse, if they sink their boat? Other than letting them drown, we would probably have to pick them up and process them, just as we are doing now. So then what?

It's a cute idea that would work for Britain, not Australia. It would deal with economic migrants in Australia, but not people claiming asylum.

The difference is that France is party to the Refugee Conventions, but Indonesia is NOT. France is also a safe territory, but Indonesia is not; in Indonesia rights of free speech are restricted and there is no effective law enforcement of religious or cultural freedom. If the Indonesian community takes a disliking to you the police will only show interest after your church or home has been burnt to the ground etc.

Ours is the same problem Greece had because people could come via boat from Libya or the middle-east nations that are not signatories to the convention. Greece could not send them back because the previous nation had no legal obligation to accept them back. It's a good situation for Indonesia, it gets money from the refugees wanting transit and money from Australia wanting to stop the refugees.

We suffer this fate because for 64 years we have been silent at the UN while democracy and human rights have been crushed in Indonesia, we remained silent as the Republic crushed the federated states of the United States of Indonesia during 1950 and we have remain mute ever since. So Australia has the neighbour it deserves for cowardice

The following link may just correct a few things:

http://www.amnesty.org.au/refugees/comments/24019/

Withdraw from the Refugee Convention like Japan and others, this then will stop them coming as they will not be accepted. I would like to see Sarah Hanson Young and other do gooders have the illegal refugees they so adore to have twenty or so live with them.
Having watched a Four Corners programme regarding this issue one felt like wiping away the tears, they were so hard done by, for goodness sake the ten pound English lived in non air conditioned Nissan huts in the 1950's, they didn't complain like these illegals, they nearly all will want compensation for all of their mental problems as soon as established here, which will break the bank that is already broken.
They are illegal people coming here, not joining the accepted entry as should be done by them. Most people I talk to have one solution to stop them, tow them out to sea and let fate decide their ending
Have you noticed they are mainly men on these boats.

When a woman sells her body it is called prostitution. And she only sells it for one use.

What do you call it when you sell your whole society, & country, for ever?

Only a bl00dy fool academic could see this idea as anything but totally immoral. It is actually totally disgusting to suggest that becoming an Ozzie is open to the highest bidder. YUCK.

You stop an invasion by sinking the invaders, far enough away to make it impossible to swim to the destination. As I have said before, give me a couple of old patrol boats, & some fuel, & I will have no trouble getting volunteers to man for free them to stop the boats.

It is about time that we came first, & gate crashers came nowhere. No problem there but for a lack of guts.

"Most of the people arriving in Australia in leaky fishing boats are economic refugees seeking a better life. Moreover, they are from families with the means to pay for passage on a boat. They are neither the poorest nor the most vulnerable from the societies they leave behind."

This entire utterly 'begs the question', in the formal, logic-based sense of that phrase, because the argument is entirely circular. You start with the bald assertion above, and base your reasoning throughout the article on it. However, you have presented no evidence of this whatsoever.

In fact, according to the Department of Immigration and Citizenship, over 90% of asylum seekers who arrived by boat were found to be genuine refugees in 2011-12. That's right, 90% were genuinely fleeing for their lives. I'm no maths genius, but I'm pretty sure that less than 10% does not equal "most".

http://www.immi.gov.au/media/publications/statistics/asylum/_files/asylum-trends-aus-annual-2011-12.pdf

And @Ojnab you are literally a psychopath. Please have yourself committed immediately for the safety of wider society.

Hasbeen, quite deliberately and knowingly drowning non combatant civilians, many of who are very genuine refugees and or asylum seekers, is murder, except say, in the third Reich! Jawol?
Flying them over, well we already do that, but particularly, with the many who overstay their visas, the real illegals!
That said, we already have an economic migrant policy.
And the minimum amount needed to independently live on, is a good deal higher than that proposed.
As a former service man, I lived rougher conditions than Manis Island, and for months at a time.
The young men, living there, know exactly how to tug at the female heartstrings, that's often how they got the money to transition and or, pay their passage on a often entirely unseaworthy boats.
We can only take so many, regardless of what system we employ; even the current sea taxi service we seem to be providing.
I thought the more humane Malaysian regional solution, should have at least been trialled.
That agreement saw people allowed to live in the community, work and attend school.
As for not allowing irregular arrivals to work for up to ten years, simply encourages a lift of comparable proportions, in the crime rate! I would instead,require them to work, as say farm labour, for a minimum wage, or the dole, for up to ten years, or for until it was safe for them to return!
And I've have no problem with tin shanty shearer quarters'.
I've lived in something even more basic.
I mean four walls, three basic wholesome meals per day and basic free medical care? Do we owe these people anything more than that?
If they want to stay, they need to learn English, gain sponsors, and be prepared to settle where they were sent?
It's a privilege to live here! Let those we open the door to, at the very least, earn it!
Rhrosty.

Rhrosty your non combatant civilians are my invasion force.

They are an invasion force in exactly the same way as if they came caring assault rifles.

They are here to do us no good at all, & I refuse to accept people self selecting to migrate to Oz.

If we are not strong enough in our physical, political or emotional guts to repel them, then we are bound to end up like the Balkans or the middle east, where half the population hate the other half.

History shows us that when societies become too easy & kind, they are dying. Fortunately I won't be around to see the demise of this one, as it gets what the bleeding hearts have designed for us.

Why do we have to have this endless stream of rot? It is not our ocean, anyone is allowed to safe peacefully and safely to where ever they want and we have no right to stop them.

And they are not economic anything just because they pay their own way.

Jesus wept, will all the rancid clowns just go the hell away?

Sounds like the Libs are resurrecting the 10 pound pom scheme - except this time it won't be able to be subsidised by the stolen Aboriginal wages. Typically, they are prepared to sell to the highest bidder. Greed and profit are the values that drive their policies. They work from the basic precept that people who have money are superior humans - not that they might be the biggest rogues and that is why they have the dough.

I would like to see dual citizenship abolished, so that people can't have two-bob-each-way by retaining their original citizenship and having an additional Australian one.

As for Hasbeen, such a happy chap gleefully discussing murder on the high seas, his thought process is alarming

Having looked for and failed to find an 'alert' button such as can be found on other online discussion pages, how do I ask the moderators to consider taking down Hasbeen's post advocating murder on the open ocean?
Since when are the people on these leaky boats armed? And he wants to sink their boats and watch them drown? Talk about gutless...

I was rather attracted to the UKIP policy: immigrants/refugees can't get access to welfare of any sort (house, dole etc) until they've paid 5 yrs taxes ie been productively employed for 5 yrs. Add to that a provision that the asylum would be withdrawn the moment the refugee felt comfortable enough to visit their homeland (many asylum seekers visit their homeland after receiving residence) and it'd all stop.

mhaze, I know this might come as a shock to you but we are not allowed to punish refugees or asylum seekers.

“As for Hasbeen, such a happy chap gleefully discussing murder on the high seas, his thought process is alarming………..and rats will leave a sinking ship…… and you might want to think about leaving jobs for yourselves and none of this bleeding hearts syndrome. Hasbeen, you are a work of art:)

Planet3

"I know this might come as a shock to you but we are not allowed to punish refugees or asylum seekers."

It might come as a shock to you Marilyn but a lot of these boat people aren't refugees.

Dear Halduell,

If you want to recommend a post for deletion -
all you have to do is go back to that post,
scroll down to the bottom and under the author's
name there's a bunch of characters. Click onto the
"X." It's a "Deletion Request Form," which will go
straight to the Moderator.

Dear Cohenite,

Asylum seeker and refugee status has to be assessed
and determined.
Marilyn is right. According to Australian and
International laws Australia is not allowed to punish
people claiming to be asylum seekers or refugees.

I do believe we should be in control of our refugee intake, rather than criminal organisations, that charge a family as much as $15-20,000.00 for a one way day trip, on a rotting hulk, that too often ends in tragedy!
I also have issues, on what impoverished families might have to endure, to "earn" the money needed to pay for a one way boat trip; but particularly, if that one way destination may be the bottom of the ocean!
We can be more generous in our intake for genuine asylum seekers! Particularly, for those much more deserving, third generation refugee camp dwellers, where their living conditions may well be much more primitive, than those on Manis Island!
We also need far better more accurate means to validate claims.
We have space age non invasive lie detectors!
Why aren't we using them?
Senior public service egos perhaps, that make them believe they are somehow superior, to the latest, most modern technology?
Moreover, getting in can't simply and automatically include family reunion! That's part of the pull factor!
And if some return to visit home, when it's safe to do so, then maybe permanent family reunions ought to be undertaken/mandated in those locations, that some refugees, apparently believe, are now safe to visit?
I mean and lets face it, every successful and safe return, opens up a place and space for a genuine refugee, who may be just as much, or far more deserving!
Rhrosty.

Lexi, don't be patronising.

The 'boat' people fly into Indonesia, destroy their passports and pay criminal smugglers thousands of dollars to make the trip.

Each one of these inherently phony 'asylum seekers' displaces a real asylum seeker rotting in a camp somewhere.

Australia should set a target of refugee intake and turn anyone else who subverts the system back; or incarcerate them.

Right now the utter incompetence of this government which could not run a chook raffle combined with the self-indulgent ideology of the greens has created a pull factor which is irresistable to entrpreneurial types who want to get on the gravy train run by these idiots in government until September.

One thing I and the majority of sensible Australians are sick of is superior hand-wringers who are making Australia a sucker for criminal gangs and faux refugees the vast majority of whom are Muslims who will want to change Australia to Sharia.

Another thing, the current cost of this racket is about $1.5 billion per month; enough to get Gillard's NDIS up and running; but of course you people couldn't give a rats about that and Gillard only brought it up to wedge Abbott anyway.

Could you people sink any lower and the irony is you lot are always bleating about morality; you wouldn't know a moral if it bit you on your backsides.

To Lexi and the others do gooders I have 2 simple questions for you.

The Jews during ww2 were whole families not just the young men in the family.

The Syrian refugees are mostly women and children or elderly, not young men.

In Africa the refugees are mostly whole families not just young men.

The refugees in Myanmar are mostly whole families not just young men.

1) CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHY WE GET MOSTLY BOATS WITH 95% MEN ON THEM?

2) Can anyone justify the UNHCR budget of $3.7 Billion to look after approx 25,000,000 refugees worldwide BUT we pay almost that much to look after not even .5% of that number.

To speegster - Quote "over 90% of asylum seekers who arrived by boat were found to be genuine refugees in 2011-12." If someone destroyed there documents you can't really check who they claim to be therefore they for purposes of expedience get approved, remember these are the clowns who said Cap't Emad was a legitimate refugee.

Marylin please have all of these asylum seekers stay in you house, I bet you would not consider it at all
If I pay and head towards Japan I dare say I would immediately be turned around and sent back from where I came from, regardless of the boat leaking.
Marylin I do accept your opinions but you must accept others with a differing view point.
I am positive that if you asked most Australians what they actually think about the asylum seekers, most would come up with not welcome here, join the genuine people waiting to come in by legal means, these people to me are most welcome.
Perhaps later on when you become a second rate citizen to men, you may then agree with what people are worried about.
Do ordinary people in other countries being blown to bits in the name of war concern you, obviously not, but all these illegals arriving and drowning do, if I am classed as a psycho then that is their opinion, but killing is not on my agenda at all, but asylum seekers by leaky boats should return home and join the genuine refugees, then we are all happy.
Marylin this particular subject you must love as many other writers in other papers disagree with you, but one always get the opinion that you are right, but are you?

Dear cohenite,

The art of reasoned, intelligent argument is a
skill not easily acquired. When and if you do
acquire it -
I shall be happy to respond. I'm not interested
in taking part in mud-slinging or personal
insults. Go talk to kindred spirits who have the
wisdom to agree with you.

Cheers.

I think future generations will learn in school how the ALP was the first political party in Government that caused a war emanating from Australia.

I would have to say that if they are willing to arrive, illegally, I doubt they would be willing to pay a huge fee.

Ome option is to intercept the boats, but instead of using navy ships, use purpose build navy ferries, complete with lock up facilities for the captain and crew.

They then off load the passages, lock up the cap and crew, and return the passenges back to their place of departure, and bring the cap and crew back here for prosecution.

The passages will soon get the message, as they will do the full circle and get no refund.

Either way, the softly softly approach has failed.

You got off lightly, Lexi.

When I venture onto threads like this, the esteemed cohenite feels an irrestistible urge to inquire if I've "picked out my burqa yet?"

individual,

"I think future generations will learn in school how the ALP was the first political party in Government that caused a war emanating from Australia."

Which "war" might you be referring to, individual.

Since when has a refugee influx been a "war"?

And, pray tell, which protagonists will be involved your imaginary war?

Marilyn Shepherd, you say you're sick of all this condemnation of these hapless boat refugees, so am I. We should double our aid to them, in an effort to make sure there journey across to us, is safer. Therefore it would encourage many more of them to come, and inspire them to exercise a greater degree of safety when they make this very dangerous crossing to Australia. There should be many more patrol boats to meet them and ensure safe passage for them all.

Marilyn, as you well know this is a very large, and deserted country in most parts. So we could well accommodate many millions more of the boat refugees. Another way, would be to levy a $Dollar a day, on every persons wages, purely to aid these very desperate refugees, for a period of initially 5 years. And review it each year, and if necessary, increase it to $2 or $3 per day even more if required.

I'd say most true Australians wouldn't mind in the least, to put there hand in there pocket to help these very desperate people. I believe most Labour voters would agree to this measure.

Poirot your naivety is either inherent or deliberate; do you?

I am continaully amazed that women, especially 'progressive' women either avoid the issue of islam or defend it.

I can't think of a worse case of cognitive dissonance.

The vast majority of the customers of the Indonesian criminal gangs are muslims.

Are you saying these phony 'asylum seekers' will not support Sharia?

Do you support Sharia?

Perhaps you can give Lexi a few hints about burqas.

"future generations will learn in school how the ALP was the first political party in Government that caused a war emanating from Australia." Indi, that will make a change from all those external wars and scraps the conservatives have lead us into. Sudan, Boar War, Boxer Rebellion, WWI, Armenian War, Russian Civil War, Spanish Civil War, WW2, Korean War, Malaya, Indonesian Confrontation, Vietnam War, First Gulf War, Iraq War and the Afghanistan War. We have a war to suit all shapes and size's. Did Great Grandpa Indi defend freedom and democracy in the Sudan with Lord Kitchener, if not, why not! LOL.

It is quite simple to stop thes illegals coming by boat.

Firstly return all Sri Lankans forthwith.

Secondly for all that arrive from Indonesia, no docs = no processing ever, No chance of permanent residence and no family reunion ever (unless of course they decide to go home themselves) They are housed in basic accomadation like bunk houses, double bunks to save costs, no air con and no computers, phones yes if they have one and all at their cost, basic meals and basic medical attention. There would be no English classes because we do not want them here. cigarettes at their own cost. No legal aid and no visits from non-detainees. No provission for security of their personal valuables. No TV and no sports/enterainment provided.

If necessary withdraw from the UN refugee convention (its grossly outdated anyway) Even withdraw from the UN (it is useless)

It is just a matter of being tougher and not giving the illegals what they seek.

It may take a while for them to get the message so am sure we could make modular or basic transportable buildings with steel frames and iron cladding. Then set up camps in remote places with no outside entry. Well fenced to keep wild camels out. Any other ideas? What about using big shipping containers

Since when has a refugee influx been a "war"?
poirot,
Years ago they used guns to invade other countries, nowadays it's done by stealth under the guise of seeking asylum by pretending to be a refugee.
The ALP goverments of Rudd/Gillard have facilitated the invasion.
As soon as the required numbers are reached mayhem will commence in Australia. It won't happen overnight but it will happen.

Lexi, Poirot and the others do gooders I have 2 simple questions for you. Your one-eyed view missed this so I will post it again.

The Jews during ww2 were whole families not just the young men in the family.

The Syrian refugees are mostly women and children or elderly, not young men.

In Africa the refugees are mostly whole families not just young men.

The refugees in Myanmar are mostly whole families not just young men.

1) CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHY WE GET MOSTLY BOATS WITH 95% MEN ON THEM?

2) Can anyone explain why the UNHCR on a budget of $3.7 Billion can look after approx 25,000,000 refugees worldwide BUT it cost almost that much to look after not even .2% of that number.
That sound like a golden handshake magnet.

I will hunt down and gut the next moron who calls asylum seekers "illegals"".

What is wrong in your twisted brains that you fail to realise you are talking about fellow human beings?

What has created such rancid hatred?

Philip S, maybe you could simply ask yourself why any of that is our business.

Marilyn Shepherd - Quote "you could simply ask yourself why any of that is our business." So to avoid answering the questions you ask a stupid question.

Answer, As a Australian taxpayer I can see the future damage monetarily and culturally this will do to Australia.

NOW YOU ANSWER THE 2 QUESTIONS I ASKED.

To quote you further "I will hunt down and gut the next moron who calls asylum seekers "illegals" Are you for real that does not do much for your credibility making a statement like that, very inflammatory.

Marilyn Shepherd
"What has created such rancid hatred?"

Lexi and Poirot have the right idea Marilyn.

For the other contributors to this debate, ignorance and irrational fears have created the racist hatred that abounds on this thread, unfortunately.

Hasbeen is a disgrace for his murderous suggestion of letting the asylum seekers boats sink and they drown. He is therefore no better than the violent people of regimes that many of these asylum seekers are running from.

PhillipS asks why there are so many young men on the boats? I believe this has already been answered many times, so Mr. S obviously hasn't seen it.
The murderous regimes these guys run from are mostly after the young men who can fight them...that's a no-brainer...

Luckily, the Government, and most of the intelligent residents of Australia would not advocate turning back the boats, and signing the death warrants of men, women and children aboard them.

We need to stop them ever getting on the boats in the first place.
I don't know what the answer to that is.
But I do know that murder by drowning is not an answer.

individual,

"Years ago they used guns to invade other countries, nowadays it's done by stealth under the guise of seeking asylum..."

If you're refering to Muslims, then I think you'll find that they tended to be the invaded rather than the invader.

Like to have a peek at the map with the pretty colours?

It's called colonialism.

http://ocw.nd.edu/arabic-and-middle-east-studies/islamic-societies-of-the-middle-east-and-north-africa-religion-history-and-culture/Images/european-colonialism-in-the-middle-east

"I will hunt down and gut the next moron who calls asylum seekers "illegals"".

You're a sick puppy.

Suse says;

"We need to stop them ever getting on the boats in the first place."

I bet you oppose interfering with the rotten regimes, all of them muslim, from which the faux asylum seekers come from, don't you.

And I bet you don't mind those faux asylum seekers commiting illegal actions here against the Western system which attracts them.

There is no rhyme or reason or logic to you people.

Let me spell it out; I have no problem with immigration, as long as it does not destroy the social and political and economic framework of this country.

I do have a problem with groups who declare they are against this framework, most of them queue-jumpers.

And I do have a problem with the disgusting comments and fanaticism of people like Marilyn.

Cohenite, I don't know if anyone can argue with such a bitter, frightened person as yourself on this forum.

Asylum seekers are not 'faux' if they end up being allowed to stay in Australia.
Not all 'rotten regimes' are Muslim. That is a hysterical, racist comment.

Only a few Muslim immigrants have committed 'illegal actions' in this country, and far less of them than from other religious backgrounds or atheists.

" I have no problem with immigration, as long as it does not destroy the social and political and economic framework of this country."
Big of you Cohenite, but what Muslim immigrants have done this so far? Aren't you being just a little over the top?

Marilyn's comment was obviously tongue in cheek, whereas Hasbeen's comment was sincere. It's scary there are people like you out there who are so skittish for no good reason...

The very first change I'd love to see is complete withdrawal of all aid to corrupt regimes like Indonesia until / unless they honor their obligations re people smugglers. Next, there needs to be a NON-political review of what are genuine refugees & what are opportunists. The debate cannot include politicians or lawyers as they are all without exception self-serving parasites. People from Sri Lanka for example are most probably NOT genuine refugees since the country is not at war, is encouraging tourism, so called 'refugees' travel through a number of other countries to get to Indonesia, and many asked to be returned to Sri Lanka rather than housed on Nauru. Australias relationship with the UN should be the subject of a referendum. There are far too many instances where the rights of Australian nationals are secondary to the rights of aliens, surely that must be grounds for treason charges against those who entered into the agreements. For the benefit of the peanut gallery, note that the Human Rights & Equal Opportunities Act states that 'Australians are not a race'. Whilst unwritten, the implication is that this refers specifically to whites of anglo-saxon ancestry. Interestingly, virtually identical law exists in the UK, the US, Canada & the Irish Republic, all signatories to the UN convention.

It's pretty disturbing how this divides people but there's one sure way to stop that. Get those in favour to put up their hand to support the asylum seekers or whatever they claim to be. All not in favour will not have any of the asylum seekers imposed upon them within a 1000km.
Those in favour can either move to the asylum seekers' new settlements or simply just send money to them.
Poirot, Marilyn Shepherd, Paul1405, Lexi, Suseonline et al I'm sure your taxpayer provided 30 pieces of silver would go a long way towards helping these soldiers of religion to achieve their goal quicker.

The best way to assess public opinion re 'refugees or whatever' would be a referendum. Mind you I'm convinced the bloodsucking parasites in Canberra have the interests of other than constituents at heart. Whether that be their legal eagle mates or the UN is another story. Despite the frequent cries 'a referendum would cost megadollars', they could actually be done quite economically IF there was a will to do so.

Marliyn,
G'Day, it is years sinc I argued with you on 'web diary',(remember the Tampa and the SIEV X) I see you are strill at it. Trying to convince everybody the illegals are poor, impoverished and persecuted souls that deserve our sympathy.

Well I am still around too and I still say they are 'illegals', see below.
http://www.immi.gov.au/managing-australias-borders/detention/about/background.htm

What is more they are con artists, cheats and shonks who get here by fraud and bribery. They gate crash our country and lie to our officials for their own gain only.

They can be stopped and will be stopped, it is just a pity it has taken this long and the cost to us so high. Roll on the election.

Why are they so disliked by the general public? Simply because we do not like being conned by shonks and fraudsters.

Here is a link that everyone should read:

http://www.crikey.com.au/2013/02/13/inside-australias-waiting-room-why-they-board-boats-in-indonesia/?wpmp-switcher=mobile

Here's a few more links that should be read:

http://theconversation.com/malaysia-solution-stand-back-and-take-a-deep-breath-says-burnside-3172

http://theconversation.com/if-were-serious-about-stopping-the-boats-we-must-take-more-refugees-4820

Lexi - Thank you your first link CONFIRMS what people have been saying most are ECONOMIC REFUGEES.

1)Quote. the 60-year-old Hazara farmer He spent 13 years in Iran before embarking on the trip to Australia. He had to leave his wife, two daughters and four sons behind in Iran. THAT IS AN ECONOMIC REFUGEE he was safe in Iran.

2)Quote. Hamad is older and has lived in Iran for most of his life. He travelled to Indonesia via Turkey, where his family is now living. ANOTHER ECONOMIC REFUGEE he was safe in Turkey.

3)Quote. They estimated only 10-15% of the Hazara asylum seekers in Cisarua were travelling in family groups and that there are very few women. All the rest are single men. ECONOMIC REFUGEES OR COWARDS WHO LEFT THERE FAMILY BEHIND.

4)Quote. “One year I’ve been living here. It’s not a camp, it’s a jail.” THEN WHY DO THEY RIOT WHEN IN AUSTRALIA if it is better?

5)Quote.I don’t have a lot of money and I have to send money to my family. There is no work here. AGAIN ECONOMIC REFUGEE SHOULD BE WITH THE FAMILY.

6)Quote. “It is difficult for us to afford our lives in Indonesia,” they said. Abdul told us that people develop psychological problems because life is so meaningless. AGAIN ECOONOMIC REFUGEES COMING BECAUSE WE PAY THEM INDONESIA GIVE THEM NOTHING.

7)Quote. We heard several stories about police officers and prison guards demanding money, sometimes as much as $4000. AGAIN SAFE BUT ECONOMIC REFUGEES

8)Quote. The bathroom is no good. All the time it is wet … we have to sleep on the floor. SO WHY DO THEY RIOT IN AUSTRALIA WHEN CONDITIONS ARE BETTER?

9)Quote. officially recognised as refugees and receive a small amount of support from the IOM, which is in part funded by the Australian government. PROOF THE GOVERNMENT IS HIDING THE REAL COST OF REFUGEES

10)Quote. His damning assessment highlighted the lack of engagement the Hazaras have with the country that has given them protection. Australia is the prize. NOTE THEY'RE SAFE IN INDONESIA BUT WANT IT BETTER ECONOMIC REFUGEE AGAIN.

Thanks for all the shouting, Philip S...

The one thing stands out in all this is the surfeit of outright fear and hysteria from predominantly emotional, middle-aged, middle-class men.

Yes that's right Poirot, middle aged, middle class men..

You know the type. They have devoted their lives to their kids & grand kids welfare.

They get a bit testy when they see some middle aged befuddled lefty woman, doing her best to destroy what they have done.

Yo, Hasbeen.

I understand.

It's only Western men who devote their lives to their kids and grand kids welfare.

Suseonline, please let me know what the Atheists have done in Australia, which upsets you so much, I am very interested, waiting to hear from you.

Ludwig,

After reading your first post it brought back memories of migrants who were allowed into Australia if they had a large amount of money.

By that I mean much larger than $50,000.00. It was more like a very minimum of $500,000.00 [larger sums than this ensured quicker processing], and that was back in the late 70's and early'80's. That would equate to what? at least a million dollars or more in today's terms.

Some of these migrants then sent the money back to relatives in their country of origin, who in turn used it to come here. This was not hearsay, but done by someone we knew at that time.

In all fairness to that person, he and his family set up and ran a successful import business with other family members back in his country of origin.

As their English language skills were limited, their employees who dealt with the public were Australian.

Interesting sub-theme being pushed by the emily-listers that the people arguing against the, predominantly muslim, opportunistic boat-people are frightened middle-aged white men.

Violence against women in the West is individualised, unless the woman is unlucky enough to fall in with a bikie gang; in islam it is systemic.

More generally how islam accepts violence per se is evident from their butchering techniques; the do-gooders will never accept the Halal process and islamists will never accept stunning because the beast must be excited through mistreatment so the heart is pumping at a maximum rate before its jugular is slashed and 70 litres of blood is expunged; bleeding stops if the heart stops, so the animal must stay alive, and preferably fearful, during the process; that's why they are tormented.

The position of infidels in islam is not much better than that of the cattle and the role of women is somewhat less again.

Anyone, as I say, particularly women, who is not ‘fearful’ of islam is an idiot who has been insulated from that reality by Western culture.

In that respect the more pertinent theme is why the left, especially leftist women cannot understand that their ‘liberation’ is contingent on a system which keeps such barbarity at bay.

In his new book, Australian Intellectuals, Associate Professor Gregory Melleuish, discusses why Australian academics as emblems of the left are so often hostile to contemporary Australian life and scathing about our Western heritage; Melleuish says;

“This culture of intellectuals (has become) embedded in key institutions, including the universities, the world of the arts and the ABC. It (has become) a subculture isolated from mainstream Australia in intellectual ghettos. It is a world which bristles with hostility, negativity and nihilism.”

As I have suggested this loathing of Australia is so focused it blinds those who have it from other realities. So to Poirot, Suse, Lexi my advice is, trade in your rose-coloured goggles for a burqa.

It's only Western men who devote their lives to their kids and grand kids welfare.
Poirot,
Yes, theirs AND others, unlike men from other cultures. How many donations can you cite that were made by filthy rich non-europeans ? How much do non-european Australians contribute voluntarily by way of community activities, fundraising etc. I'm sure there are some but since you're referring to western men as a whole I feel compelled to ask re non-western as a whole. I noticed that you very slyly used the term westerner but your inference is clearly white. Not a good show Poirot & you're smudging the good reputation of a film character of integrity..

Here's a few more links for your information:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/national/the-real-story-of-asylum-seekers-is-drowned-out-by-fear-and-bigotry-and-politicians-like-it-that-way/story-fncynkc6-1226633287892

And, talking about economic refugees:

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/54000-refugees-no-questions-asked-20120821-24kpb.html

Lexi - I see you come out with a new set of links BUT you fail to address the post that proves that they are ECONOMIC REFUGEES

Poirot - There is a big difference between shouting and emphasizing something (making it stand out) better luck next time.
it also has to be noted that you are good at commenting with childlike snide remarks - but you fail to answer questions when people ask them.

NOTICE HOW EVEN THOUGH THE TRUTH COMES OUT OF THE MOUTH OF THE ECONOMIC REFUGEES Poirot, LEXI, Suseonline and Marilyn Shepherd STILL CANNOT ACCEPT THEY ARE WRONG AND HAVE BEEN DUPED.

That article also means the WEAK USELESS Government needs to see where the so-called-refugees in Australia are sending money to as it will betray where they really came from and the fact they were safe and are only economic refugees.

BEARING THAT IN MIND ANY DISCUSSION WITH THEM WOULD BE LIKE TALKING TO A BRICK WALL, A COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME.

IN FUTURE ON THIS SUBJECT RATHER THAN COMMENT I WILL MOSTLY JUST
RE POST THE EVIDENCE TO THEM FROM THE MOUTHS OF THE REFUGEES.

individual - Why are you wasting your time with questions to Poirot when presented with evidence that the boat people in Indonesia are economic refugees all he could do was come back with a childlike snide remark.

Lexi - What is your point about the New Zealanders THEY ARE WORKING AND NOT SPONGING ON THE TAXPAYER.

I would have posted this earlier but had a 5 hour post delay.

I could understand the bleeding heart brigade if we were in a situation whereby our seniors are well cared for, our education system is not growling for, or swapping funding around, and our economy was goimg strong and in surplus.

The reality is, none f the above are the case and, I have long held the belief that charity starts at home.

So once we clean up our own back yard, then, and only then, we shoukd loom towards helping others.

Stop shouting, Philip S.

Cohenite,

"...this loathing of Australia..."

The only loathing I can see here is that emanating from Australians.

individual,

"....you're smudging the good reputation of a film character of integrity..."

His creator was married to a renowned archeologist, an expert in Middle-Eastern archeology. They spent much time on digs in Iraq and Syria. I'm supposing she had a more fulsome appreciation of Middle-Eastern people and practices than you could ever dream of.

Ojnab, I wrote that sentence wrong in my last post.

I meant to say that far more people from other religious, or non- religious, backgrounds have caused violence in this country, than those from Muslim backgrounds....

I was suggesting that all this almost paranoid feelings that some posters feel about Muslim immigrants is unfounded in our country.
I certainly wasn't having a go at atheists.

I realize this subject is a very emotional one for many posters, but I am still amused by the usual gender differences of opinion on this site.

On many divisive subjects it appears to be the male posters taking the hard, anti-Government, positions.
The female posters almost always take the right position of course : )

Lexi,
Obviously Jane Fynes-Clinton is incorrect in her assesment of the illegals, but one sentence she does write I can relate to.

She wrote."Government statistics show that four in five of those arriving by boat are eventually deemed to be refugees, while only about one in five of those arriving by air pass the test".

The government needs to inform us as to why the difference in acceptance rates. I cannot find any official explanation for the difference. the only thing I can see is that we have proof of identity with the ones that arrive legally and it is easier to refuse them and send them back to where they embarked. We cannot prove who the illegals are and other countries will not take them back without proof. So it is easier to allow them in. It would be good to get an explanation from government.

In relation to your second link. Yes i do think 53000 from NZ is far too many and the situation needs to be re-appraised. It seems a very one sided arrangement we have with NZ and why they should get preference over other migrants remains a mystery. If one talks to people in Bondi and Coogee, it seems many Kiwis do not work.

I'm supposing she had a more fulsome appreciation of Middle-Eastern people and practices than you could ever dream of.
Poirot,
That's interesting but you're still smearing the character with your mentality. I'm sure she enjoyed & exploited to the fullest the so much by you maligned colonial system of those years.

I would not normally post on issues relating to immigration due to the fervent moral stance taken by so many of the posters who have responded to the article and too many 'armchair' experts spewing forth their biased opinion.

I would like to point out, as someone who in an earlier life, a few years ago, was employed on the front-line, attempting to assist in protecting our so-called borders in the marine setting.

In a majority of cases those boats boarded, that's if they didn't sink themselves first to guarantee a lift to the mainland, were full of clear-cut economic refugees.

A number (and I am talking about a significant number) of boats would be intercepted near old WW II airstrips (Truscott and other such similar airfields or near-shore road junctions along the NW coast), the boat would drop off their passengers, all well dressed, carrying suitcases, in most cases stuffed full of Australian money (from god knows where?) and expect a short wait to be flown out or driven out to places unknown.

Little has changed, many of my old counterparts still work in the industry and little has changed, particularly from those claiming assylum from Sri Lanka, the only difference is they don't bring their wealth with them anymore, they wait until they have residency and slowly bring it in under-the-radar.

Likewise the old SIEV X type boats, the industry is now big business in Indonesia, a country that has no real interest in stemming the flow, current Labor government policy serves 'their' needs well.

I acknowledge there are genuine refugees, unfortunately the ones we add to our shores each day are unlikely to be of that ilk.

People need to wake up and realise there is a genuine way of entering this country as a refugee, if they don't like it, particularly the 90% who are 'economic refugees' then stay away or get in line like everyone else

individual,

Regarding Agatha Christie, I suspect you're right to the extent that there existed at that time certain protocols and arrangements that favoured colonial preferences.

Don't be so sure that Poirot would sanction the shallow-minded, fear driven xenophobia on this thread.

He'd analyse it. He'd even understand it, but I doubt he'd view it as anything other than one more example of uninspiring and petty humanity.

He'd analyse it. He'd even understand it,
Poirot,
That's exactly what I do hence my comments. What you lefties like to brand as xenophobia is in fact a sober assessment. You lot just don't happen to like it when others are ahead in thinking instead of putting on rose coloured glasses & pretending all is good when reality is not what you would like it to be.
Let me ask you this. How much are you prepared to forfeit to open your home to someone who came here via several other countries & telling you they are a refugee ? They are so poor but they did pay thousands to those who they full well know are bringing them here illegally to then seek asylum. Why not seek asylum in the first country you get to after escaping ? If Australia were to cut all support they'd still come here because to their religious agenda Australia is the last frontier. They are not political or economic refugees at all, they are soldiers for their religion.

Suse says:

"I meant to say that far more people from other religious, or non- religious, backgrounds have caused violence in this country, than those from Muslim backgrounds...."

That's a lie.

It also ignores the fact that muslims agitate for an overthrow of the legal system of the nation and indeed any nation they are in. No other group does that.

The comments of people like Suse eventually reach the stage where they cease to be that of 'useful idiots' and that of quislings.

Got your burqa yet Suse?

Whether or not boat-people / migrants (whether they be legal, illegal, political, economic or whatever) should be given virtually unlimited / unrestricted access to this country should be decided by a majority of citizens, NOT by bloodsucking parasite politicians of whatever affiliation, NOT by lawyer leeches who profit handsomely, NOT by the UN and most definitely NOT by a few bleeding hearts. Quite obviously we can't trust the red-headed witch to tell the truth & its highly doubtful that the RAbbott would recognize the truth if it jumped up and bit him. Whatever those clowns say needs to be taken with more than a few pinches of salt. As other contributors have correctly noted, there are countless Australian citizens who deserve a better deal eg pensioners, unemployed, returned soldiers etc etc and who warrant higher priority than freeloaders, most of whom have highly questionable status.

Geoff of Perth, You may have been as you claim "someone who in an earlier life, a few years ago, was employed on the front-line, attempting to assist in protecting our so-called borders in the marine setting." or you could be making it up to add weight to your argument. I am interested in this statement of yours;
"the only difference is they don't bring their wealth with them anymore, they wait until they have residency and slowly bring it in under-the-radar."
How do you know this to be true? Are you following these people around checking on their bank accounts, how could you possibly know this is true as you say, its "under-the-raidar". Unless you can offer an explanation about this and show its not a fabrication of yours, then I must assume the rest of your post could also be a fabrication. You may be nothing more than an 'armchair' expert spewing forth your biased opinion.

Yes. Well said praxidice!

Geoff of perth,
Good to get info from someone that has worked in that area.

Some years ago, I read an article that stated a number of illegals arrived in North Aus by light aircraft from Indonesia. They had been met by associates here and were on the way to Melbourne when an astute service station employee noticed the odd persons and notified authorities. I wonder how many times that has occured?

I understood most of the currency illegals carried was in US dollars.

Interesting to hear info from former workers.

Oh come on Cohenite, now you are being ridiculous!
Have a look at the last census.

Muslims account for only a tiny number of people in Australia.
How can they commit more violence than all other people in Australia?

It is you who is lying...

Your comment Suse is egregious because elsewhere on this thread I have distinguisged between individual acts of violence (against women) and systemic, that is within a group, violence which is advocated by that group.

The latter applies to islam; of course, collectively, all the individual acts of violence exceed the violence committed by and advocated by islam but that is not the point.

Islam has an antithetical value system to the West and has the 'runs on the board' in backing up its program of implementing its value system with violence.

I don't understand why that simple fact causes so much logic-bending and irrational positions from the left.

Western democracy cannot be forced on anyone; why it can do is prevent other value systems from usurping the rights offered by the Western model. Currently islam is attempting to usurp the Western system from within in classic Cuckoo fashion.

But I can see for discussion purposes we have to take baby steps; do you think women have equality within islam?

Violence / criminal activity on the part of islamics doesn't rate as a major concern of mine, however their extremely high birthrate compared with Australians as a whole certainly does warrant consideration. Even a small population can rapidly increase to the point where they can demand changes unfavourable to the established culture eg sharia law. We've already seen demands for special identification provisions for islamic females. Whether this means we should review islamic migration is another question. I was impressed to see cooperation between CDP & islamics in relation to the proposed homosexual marriage referendum so its not all a hopeless case. That said, now is the time to take stock of potential changes likely should we end up with significant islamic population and to take whatever steps necessary. It cannot be left to bloodsucking parasite politicians.

Of course there are going to be people who will
exploit the system. There will be people who
will be seeking not to save themselves or their
families from persecution but people who want to
merely "trade up" countries. This is unfortunate
not only for us, but for the millions of genuinely
oppressed or dispossed refugees worldwide, and most
especially the thousands whom we're forced to say no
to because our intake quota is filled by recent boat
arrivals, some of whom appear to be of dubious
authenticity.

We've seen recently that just the prospect of being sent
to Nauru has seen many Sri Lankan boatpeople suddenly
decide that life is not so bad back home after all and
they've opted to repatriate. Unlikely behaviour from
anyone genuinely in fear of their life.

However, this should not in any way tar every asylum seeker
or refugee and labels like, "economic refugees," or
"illegal immigrants," have to be proven before being
assigned to any particular group.

One of the links that I provided in my earlier post dealt
with the Hazaras who fled Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan,
and found themselves in Indonesia. They were people
escaping from systematic discrimination,
ethnic cleansing, and genocide. The conditions in
Indonesia were appalling. And included raw sewerage flowing
into overcrowded rooms, no medical aid, beatings,corrupt
police and officials,
people lying on floors and so on. Thousands of Hazaras have
fled to Europe and Australia to escape this oppression.
And onyone who brushes these people aside as "economic
refugees," and considers that they can live "safely" in
Indonesia - needs to do a bit more research.

As I stated earlier - yes, there are people who will exploit
any system - as we all know there are many in this country
that do so with our welfare services. But this doesn't mean that
we shouldn't help those who are genuinely vulnerable and in
need of our help.

Good post Lexi, I do not see one post by the so called pro refugee people here supporting any kind of open door policy, any kind of non screening, any support what so ever for criminals, etc. What I do see are people with humanity and compassion for their fellow man. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for many of the anti asylum seeker posters. Their posts are peppered with hate fueling clap trap, exaggerations and generalizations along with outright deceptions. Always trying to whip up hysteria about asylum seekers, with the exaggerations of, one is criminal, all are criminals, one is a fanatic, all are fanatics, one is not genuine, all are not genuine.
There is noting new to the use of generalization and exaggeration to build hatred towards one group or another in society, its been going on since before Nero fed the Christians to the lions.

Dear Paul1405,

I've just received an article via email that may be
of interest. I'd like to quote a little from it:

"On Monday in Canberra with Foreign Minister Bob Carr
and other dignitaries in attendance, the Governor
General conferred honorary Australian citizenship on
Raoul Wallenberg, the Swedish diplomat responsible for
saving the lives of many thousands of Jews in Nazi-occupied
Hungary."

"In the words of Peter Wertheim - of the Executive Council
of Australian Jewry, through this ceremony Australia is,
"Not just honouring the late Raoul Wallenberg as a man who
was brave and who faced down incredible evil. I think we're
also saying something about who we are as a nation...that
the qualities of courage, compassion and basic human decency
are the very qualities by which we define our own national
character at its best."

Yet as the article points out, "honouring the courageous
and compassionate acts of half a century ago can say
nothing flattering about Australia's national character unless
we are also prepared to let that same courage and compassion
define our actions in the present. A genuine tribute to the
spirit of Raoul Wallenberg also requires Australian governments
to display the same compassion and decency in doing what it can
to save lives that are in danger today."

PART 1
The following are all quotes from the link provided by Lexi that prove the refugees are ECONOMIC refugees.

1)Quote. "the 60-year-old Hazara farmer He spent 13 years in Iran before embarking on the trip to Australia. He had to leave his wife, two daughters and four sons behind in Iran." ** Note he was safe in Iran.**

2)Quote. "Hamad is older and has lived in Iran for most of his life. He travelled to Indonesia via Turkey, where his family is now living." ** Note he was safe in Turkey.**

3)Quote. “It is difficult for us to afford our lives in Indonesia,” they said. Abdul told us that people develop psychological problems because life is so meaningless. ** They want to come to Australia because we give them money Indonesia do not **

4)Quote. "His damning assessment highlighted the lack of engagement the Hazaras have with the country that has given them protection. Australia is the prize". ** Note he was safe just wants a better life **

5)Quote. "I don’t have a lot of money and I have to send money to my family. There is no work here." ** If that is not an economic refugee I don't know what is. **

6)Quote. "We heard several stories about police officers and prison guards demanding money, sometimes as much as $4000." ** Safe problem was police corruption **

7)Quote. "They estimated only 10-15% of the Hazara asylum seekers in Cisarua were travelling in family groups and that there are very few women. All the rest are single men." ** To me this indicates the family are in Iran, Turkey or another safe country, just waiting for the family reunion documents **

Here is the link originally supplied by Lexi.
http://www.crikey.com.au/2013/02/13/inside-australias-waiting-room-why-they-board-boats-in-indonesia/?wpmp-switcher=mobile

For the sake of Poirot Capitals can be used to emphasize something it does not always mean shouting except to simple minded people.

PART 2
With these quotes they complain about the conditions (note no riots) BUT when put in the same situation but better conditions they riot and cause millions of dollars damage.
1)Quote. “One year I’ve been living here. It’s not a camp, it’s a jail.”

2)Quote. "The bathroom is no good. All the time it is wet … we have to sleep on the floor."

The following quote even though they are not in Australia the Australian taxpayer is partially supporting some of them.

1)Quote. "officially recognised as refugees and receive a small amount of support from the IOM, which is in part funded by the Australian government."

Poirot, LEXI and Suseonline I have shown that you have all been duped by these so-called-refugees but you still can not accept the truth or disprove what I have stated.

Why on earth would anyone want to escape conditions that
entail raw sewerage flowing into overcrowded rooms,
no medical aid, beatings, overcrowding, corrupt police
and officials, people lying on floors? Why would anyone
riot just because they're kept in detention indefinitely under
the most appalling conditions?
Especially people like the Hazaras
should stay in their "safe" countries like Iran, Pakistan,
Afghanistan, and
not fear systematic discrimination, ethnic cleansing
and genocide.

And as for us?
why all we need do is rip up the documents
that we've signed and we can do what we want.

Philip S,

Don't take me for a dill.

Capitals employed for the odd word here and there are one thing. Repeatedly posting sentence long tirades in capitals "is" shouting.

(Note I emphasised "is" in inverted commas. Online etiquette usually dictates that emphasis is displayed in this manner if italics aren't available)

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/italic

A typical fatuousand sanctimonious contribution from Paul.

The Hazaras are a large minority ethnic group mainly living in Afghanistan and to a lessor extent, Pakistan.

There is a racial as well as sectarian antipathy towards the Hazaras in those places, but that is the nature of islam; whenever one variety is in a dominant position it will oppress other forms while all forms maintain a hostility towards the West.

Anyone who says otherwise is a fool.

Unfortunately, as Paul and other commentators show here, there are more than enough fools in the West to prevent a robust discussion and policy development towards islam from happening.

The muslim boat people in Indonesia are at best opportunists who displace unambiguously genuine refugees who are living in worse conditions [and as for Lexi's shamelessly gullible and manipulative statements about open sewers why can't these able bodied men get out and dig some bloody latrines]; at worst they are muslims who want to come to Australia for the benefits and who would, actively or otherwise, support a change in the social framework from a secular one to a Sharia one.

Well Paul1405, here is why I stated what I did:

In the late 1990's early 2000's most of the boats we intercepted were the old Type I and II Indonesian fishing boats, most were trying to make a living by fishing, particularly those on the Type I boats (using sails and traditional fishing methods), the Type II boats were motorised but used similar fishing methods but we had more trouble with them because they would venture further into Australian waters and fish-out and destroy reef whenever possible. Type III vessels were the most problematic, used modern fishing techniques and would have a mother vessel just outside the 200NM limit where they would resupply from.

As fishing stocks declined, the Type III vessels and their owners found it more profitable to bring in illegal immigrants. Often getting as far south as Broome before apprehension. We worked in close cooperation with Coastwatch, usually a single aircraft flying a specific route, usually between Weipa and Broome, covering the north-western approaches including the Gulf, waters north of Gove, Darwin and westward toward Ashmore Reef, Rowley Shoals and Scott Reef.

As time went on we caught more and more boats, sometimes towing in 20+ at a time, either to Darwin or Broome.

More and more boats included 'passenger' either from the ME or the Indian sub-continent. We quickly ascertained those who were fishermen from those who were illegal refugees by simply looking at their hands. Fishermen had rough scarred hands, illegal refugees had well manicured hands.

Today it is little changed. I have mates working in Customs, Border Protection, the Federal Police and in the military who keep me up to date on what is really going on.

As to the money side of it, my friends in other agencies I won't discuss keep me on the up and up on what is true and what is not.

Believe what you want, I know the truth.

Poirot - Having read some of your past comments you are one of the last people I would expect to be able to give a sermon in etiquette.

Language etc evolves with time, also check some adverts etc they use capitals to emphasis somethings, If you don't like it bad luck.

Just because Poirot says something does not make it real or factual.
Inverted commas are used to denote a quote, something someone said as well.

Also where is your etiquette when you are asked questions you fail to answer them or give childish sarcastic remakes.

Lexi - It amazes me how you managed to miss all the examples of why the refugees are ECONOMIC REFUGEES not real asylum seekers, that from a link you provided. Some had been in a country 15 years they were safe you are obviously blind to any truth that does not fit your agenda.

Yes rip up the refugee convention it is out of date and full of loop holes.

Interesting Lexi….human nature is at the core of this debate. On one hand, the second and third world do live in the most worst conditions imaginable and of coarse being a first world people, there is opportunity to teach and gain from this since some if not all will be looking for employment at the end of peoples studies. The governments decision on these matters airs an open forum for the people of Australia and our guests to provide the fame work for the best interests for our country. Now on the other hand, all governments around the world have the same overpopulation problems, and this is where the double edge sword takes reality.

The love.

I guess no matter what links are provided, no
matter what information is supplied and from
whom - it appears that different people in different
walks of life may interpret the same phenomenon -
whether it is a government document, a given link,
a PM's policies, a newspaper article, a television program,
a religious doctrine, or any given issue up for discussion
in very different ways.

In other words people tend to see everything from a viewpoint
of subjectivity. An interpretation based on one's personal
values and experiences. Our views are shaped by what our
backgrounds, interests, education, values, has prepared us to
see and by what we consciously or unconsciously want to see.

Each of us is inclined to perceive facts selectively and to
interpret them accordingly. And inevitably, we're all guilty of
some measure of bias,

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/national/the-real-story-of-asylum-seekers-is-drowned-out-by-fear-and-bigotry-and-politicians-like-it-that-way/story-fncynkc6-1226633287892

Philip S,

http://www.networketiquette.net/core_rules_do_not_use_all_caps.html

I'm sure you can be just as obnoxious without resorting to all caps.

Cohenite, good to see you pop out from a meeting of 'The Redneck Brotherhood' to throw a few insults at those who do not agree with your subjective "expert" opinions.
"there are more than enough fools in the West to prevent a robust discussion and policy development towards islam from happening."
Any who disagree with you are labeled fools. Therefore there is no need for any robust discussion, all we need is agreement with your opinions, and presto, policy is developed. What you and others promote is a simplistic "Fortress Australia" option which is backed by a "gunboat" mentality. I remind you we are now living in the 21st century and not the 19th. There is no longer a simplistic answer to the problem of refugees in the world.

Lexi, Conferring honorary Australian citizenship on Raoul Wallenberg, the Swedish diplomat for what he did for the Jewish people during WWII, was wonderful to see, after all this time. I would like to see other great persons from recent history honored in such a way. It also reminds me that we must never forget what has happened during terrible times. There are still many people in this world and in our own country who lack basic humanity towards their fellow man.

There are still many people in this world and in our own country who lack basic humanity towards their fellow man.
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 8 May 2013 9:06:45 PM

Paul,
The subject here is, How to stop the boats

Are you saying that everyone who wants the boats stopped from coming lacks basic humanity towards their fellow man.

I think we just object to being conned and we do not like liars and gate crashers who take advantage of our generosity.

Julie Bishop stated tonight that there is no reason at all for Sri Lankins to come here in leaky boats, the country is safe, so why leave it? she is of the opinion that they must be returned from whence they came, if they want to leave India is close by, social benefits of course are more attractive here than India where they would get nothing.
My namesake Banjo I do agree with you on your letter writing to these pages, it really concerns me with all of these boats coming in with mainly male occupants, just tow the boats back to Indonesia, but we wouldn't want that, would we, no taxpayer hand outs there, and then again perhaps there is an ulterior motive, lets infiltrate the country like Holland, France and others with Sharia law,visiting Dubai in two weeks,no hand holding there, codeine in headache tablets not allowed, women only taxis etc, do we want laws like this here, we are slowly heading in that direction such as segrated swimming pools, prayer rooms, Halal meat, a few more years when our Parliaments have these members as the majority then women once again will become second or third rate citizens, men will be the order of the day. We don't want this do we?

Ojnab,
I have long said it was agenda-driven & you think so too, in fact you know just like I do. Why do I know ? Because I have already experienced it in Europe 50 years ago. If Australians don't wake up & act soon they'll lose this war without a shot fired.
It's hard to distinguish but it is either gross complacency or stupidity that allows this to accelerate by the day. It has almost nothing to do with asylum seeking.
I hope Clive Palmer becomes PM & pulls us out of this idiotic & shameful situation.

I have inside information. That is the pull factor - our generous welfare benefits and that is the first thing the boat arrivals demand on arrival. I have been told this first hand. They are mainly economic seekers. But they still complain - food not good enough etc. And more disturbing stuff the general public would not be happy about.

Banjo, have you created an alter ego called 'Ojnab'. Is the poster Banjo Patterson the reincarnation of the great poet himself or another ego. If not you seem to be developing a 'cult' following of those who wish to emulate you.
Back to the topic at hand. I am not saying that everyone who wants the boats stopped from coming lacks basic humanity towards their fellow man.
I for one are not in favor of people making dangerous sea voyages to Australia in mostly unseaworthy boats, to seek asylum. The death toll is clear evidence of the dangers of such an undertaking.
What I do advocate is Australia acts according to our obligations as a signatory to UN charters. Nothing more than that. I support the application of due process of law for these asylum seekers. There are those that even advocate the criminality of sinking their boats and state their criminality openly. There is much unwarranted hysteria towards these people, mostly of a racial nature, which has no place in Australian society. Hysteria propagated by white supremacists and other racially driven people.
I support Australia's action in seeking the extradition of Sayeed Azad from Indonesia on people smuggling charges. If found guilty a long jail term is warranted.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/world/17075273/people-smuggler-faces-extradition-to-australia/

The people of Australia are being conned. I believe individual is pretty close to the truth. There is unquestionably some 'string pulling' going on, most probably by the UN. Mind you the substantial rip-offs by legal fraternity leeches who represent boat people courtesy of the public purse is also a factor. Had the powers that be demonstrated good faith by asking the Australian people as a whole for their majority opinion of boat migration, I'd be more inclined to support it. Maybe I'm a bit more anti 'the system' than some, but personally I automatically distrust the motives behind **EVERY** word uttered by a bloodsucking parasite politician or a legal leech. Whenever I'm told 'take this medicine because its good for you', my immediate reaction is 'whats in it for you lying scumbags ??'. As I've said countless times & will continue to say, the words 'politician' & 'honorable' are mutually exclusive. The red-headed witch will be remembered in history as having set a record for political porkies but the RAbbott could well surpass her. I'm not aware of any previous failed lawyer AND failed priest head of state however to my way of thinking, the combination doesn't exactly suggest an excess of decency.

Another stupid comment by Paul:

"Hysteria propagated by white supremacists and other racially driven people."

"white supremacists"?!

Islam is NOT a race Paul.

IMO islam is a cult; do some research on islam and apostasy; do some research on Taqiyya and Kitman; as far as I can see islam is the perfect package for conquering other cultures, especially Western cultures which apply their values of fairness, openess and tolerance to other groups and which assumes those other groups reciprocate.

How does islam reciprocate fairness, openess and tolerance Paul, you dope?

It's as simple as that really; the do-gooders, full of their own goodness and sense of moral purpose, assume their efforts to help islam will be appreciated and that our muslim brothers will share their vision of milk and human kindness.

Nothing could be further from the truth; in fact it is bizarre; there is overwhelming evidence of what islam is and what its values are yet the do-gooders persist in thinking their moral perspective will change/produce/convert the islamic beast into a civilised, good and gentle force.

That is what we are dealing with here, a delusion based on the ego and sense of moral worth of chumps like Paul who invokes the UN as justification.

That same UN is now considering proposals by islam to make criticism of islam an international offence.

In the specific case of the 'boat-people' we see the elelments of deceit and scorn for Australian values and process. Islam is a fundamental religion which operates like a cult; it is inimical to Australian values and society.

That is not fear, that is just a fact.

The people who argue otherwise are betraying Australia.

I don't believe there is any room to doubt the motives of either 'many' boat people or those in favour of them. There may well be 'some' genuine cases however I believe they are a distinct minority. If there was even the faintest hint of decency & accountability in the existing political circus or the legal profession, I'd probably be less cynical. As far as I'm concerned, the red-headed witch & the dying duck care only about their futile attempts to survive politically (both being unemployable in the real world). The RAbbott is somewhat more dangerous as he's got a very good chance of a landslide win after which he can act as dictator for at least three years and probably six. These bloodsucking parasites don't give a rats about accountability, what damage they do to the economy or the 'Australian way of life', its all about personal power, feathering their own nests, and doing favours for their cronies. If it transpires that Australia adopts sharia law, mandates burkhas for all females, outlaws any religion bar islam, etc etc, then so be it. None of these have any effect on the bloodsucking parasites & the leeches who will be quite capable of moving elsewhere. The sheeple really need to grow backbones & stand up for their rights, otherwise there won't be any in the near future. Hey it may be that the majority decide that sharia law is fine (after all it does have 'some' good features even if the AC-DC set disagree). My beef is that decisions that potentially affect every single person in the country are being made by mindless dumbclucks with no accountability whatsoever. Just like 'the system' regarded Pauline Hanson an unacceptable danger to parasites & leeches in positions of authority, the same bottom-feeders are treating the people of Australia with undisguised contempt.

Paul,
Firstly, I do not know of ojnab but I use Banjo to perpetuate the name of a Aussie poet I admire greatly and I do like colonial and bluegrass music. Some posters may agree with my opinion on some subjects and likewise I agree with some on some subjects. e.g. Belly and I agree on some things and on others we do not.

On issue. There are a few that advocate measures i do not, but this seems mainly tongue-in-cheek, like Marilyn's threat to 'hunt down', and comes from the frustration of government failure to act.

I notice you use the term 'mostly of a racial nature' in relation to persons wanting the boats stopped. You are quite wrong of course and those accusations by advocates went out of vogue years ago. The majority of the Aussie public simply don't like us being taken for a ride by the illegal shonks.

We only have to wait another few months and likely have a government that will act decisively, it is a pity so much time and money has been wasted in the last 5 years. I do not think much of the illegals but their deaths have been caused by this governments actions.

Yar, cohenite, I'll have to acquiesce on this one.

You'd have to go a long way to find a thread with views that radiate more fairness, openness and tolerance than this one.

Poirot, address the issue:

Does good beget good?

Will islam respond in kind or will it continue to use and abuse?

Can the Western social structure coexist with islam?

Why should the West accommodate islam when this is not reciprocated?

Have you picked your burqa?

How to stop the boats?

Well we've tried razor wire, children in detention,
we've seen riots, incidents of self-harm, suicide,
the Tampa controversy, and various human rights
violations - and yet the boats still keep on coming.
Our anger has been directed at the so called - "facts"
that both the tabloid press and politicians keep telling
us - that these people are stealing Australian jobs,
government benefits and land.
That these people have a range of attractive options to
pick from.

So why do they make the arduous decision
to leave their homes and family to come here, especially
when we offer such excellent conditions - like razor wire,
indefinite detention, less than basic medical aid,
no Centrelink payments while in detention, why on earth
do they insist on incidents of self-harm, suicide,
riots, and other various human rights violations when they
have it so good here?

Let us continue not to discuss how to manage the flow
of refugees to this country, instead let us continue on
how to deter and stifle the flow, and demonise these
people.

And in the meantime we can continue to proudly sing our national anthem's lyrics,

"For those who've come across the seas, we've boundless
plains to share."

Perhaps we should add - "But only if you're "one of us."

Lexi,
Like others with your view of this issue, you leave otu the important facts.

A. That the previous government had the problem solved but this stupid current mob went and stuffed it.

B. The illegals are shonks that fly to Malaysia and then once in Indonesia and aboard a boat either sell their docs to others or destroy them to prevent proof of identity.

C. They set out deliberately to lie and deceive our immigration officials with the sole intent of gaining permanent residence.

As for the national anthem, we are a very generous nation, just look at our overseas aid and the number of legal migrants we accept, and we just increased the number of refugees accepted.

Oh, and a previous Labor PM altered the lyrics of 'Advance Australia Fair' after it was approved by the people. Another Labor deceit!

Dear Banjo,

We've covered this ground many times previously.
However you persist with your usual mantra
even to the extent of ignoring facts supplied
by the DIAC's own documents. The real burden
ofassisting refugees is borne by the world's
poorest nations. Of the 71 that assist refugees
Australia is rannked 32nd. 84% of all asylum seekers
seeking asylum in Asutralia -
are found to be legitimate refugees and are able to
stay in Australia. And 97% of applicants from Iraq and
93% from Afghanistan have all been found to be genuine
refugees.

Demonisation has been the name of the game in the tabloid
treatment of the asylum seeker issue. Politicians and
press have collaborated for more than a decade to foster
fear, to dog whistle to xenophobia, to reframe and
dominate this debate as a crisis of our security. And so
it is that people now discuss not how best to manage a flow
of refugees to this country, but instead how to deter and
stifle it.

The problem is not going to go away and while you may
criticise this government - the problem is not about to
go away for the next one no matter what you choose to
believe. World-wide strive is increasing not decreasing.
Refugees will continue to flee.

cont'd ...

BTW ; The only changes that the Labor government
made to our National Anthem was to shorten the
anthem and omit the over the top colonial references
that were felt to be inappropriate in today's
Australia. "For those who've come across the seas,
we've boundless plains to share," was not changed
from the original.

Lexi - Quote "The real burden of assisting refugees is borne by the world's poorest nations. Of the 71 that assist refugees Australia is ranked 32nd. 84% of all asylum seekers seeking asylum in Australia -
are found to be legitimate refugees and are able to stay in Australia."

Nice piece but completely misleading, in so far as most of the others give them a tent some food and water nothing else then they have to go home.

The UNHCR budget for 25 million refugees is only $3.7 Billion we spend that trying to handle less than .25% of that.

If the person has no documents and lies it is very hard to prove them wrong also the people doing the assessment did say they were told what to do IE find them legal. The refugee advocates quickly tell them what to say and how to answer the questions to give the illusion they are real refugees.

You also conveniently posted a link to refugees but fail to answer comments that show these refugees are only Economic refugees. I will re post it again later for you.

Poirot - Please show me your badge that shows you have been given the job as the etiquette police for this site.
You will not dictate how I post thing, so get over it

Banjo, you have a very strong position on 'boat people'. Can I ask what is your position when it come to 'visa over stayers'? There are thousands of people who have arrived by plane and simply failed to leave when required, taking jobs from Australians, often working cash in hand and paying no tax, and at the same time breaking down work conditions.

Cohenite, what a superior intellect you must be, such a conceited expert if there ever was one. Quote; "as far as I can see islam is the perfect package for conquering other cultures" How does islam reciprocate fairness, openess and tolerance Paul, you dope?" "That is what we are dealing with here, a delusion based on the ego and sense of moral worth, of chumps like Paul." Where have I posted that I support the Islamic religion? Your rants get worse, they may go down well with other like minded individuals, but there is little of substance in your generalisations about asylum seekers.

Philip S,

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/rules.asp

Paul has a whinge and says:

"Where have I posted that I support the Islamic religion?"

Previously Paul said:

"There is much unwarranted hysteria towards these people, mostly of a racial nature, which has no place in Australian society. Hysteria propagated by white supremacists and other racially driven people."

The boat people coming from Indonesia are muslim. I explained my cricism was not racially based because islam is not a race.

Just for the record I support immigration and doing as much for genuine refugees, the ones rotting in the camps while the queue jumpers take their place, as is financially viable, a constraint which the hand-wringers ignore.

Right now the boat-people are the squeaky wheel and the do-gooders are being duped in their moral superiority by their squeaking.

So, the 2 issues are; are the boat-people predominantly economic nation-shoppers?

And what should Australia do about islamic immigration?

So Paul, what are your answers?

Poirot - Do not "shout" (use capital letters excessively).

Officer Poirot notice the last word excessively.

Funny how you are the only one frustrated about this.

Get a life.

Philip S,

I requested you stop shouting after this:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=14974&page=0#258289

Which was shortly followed by this:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=14974&page=0#258317

I'm not frustrated at all, Philip S.

You disagreed that all caps was shouting, and I followed up 'tis all.

Both those posts used capitals excessively.

Thanks for toning down.

>>You will not dictate how I post thing, so get over it<<

You'd be a fool to mistake advice for dictation in this case Phil. Nobody likes being shouted at and a lot of people will often form an unfairly negative impression of a person just because that person is too loud. You'd do well to heed Teddy Roosevelts advice on this subject: speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far.

Cheers,

Tony

Poirot - You really must be frustrated to go and get the links, again funny it is only you. Get a life.

I am not "toning down" as stated before it is used to emphasize something and when warranted I will do it again.

Quote "I'm not frustrated at all, Philip S" The amount of time you spent on this says differently.

Philip S,

It look me all of 30 seconds to get each link.

I hate to disappoint you, but I've actually had quite a busy day so I really haven't had time to obsess too much about your recalcitrant attitude to being informed that using all caps repeatedly for whole sentences is shouting.

I'll see if I can rustle up a little obsessiveness about the issue before I turn in for the night.

You feel free to "emphasise" by using all caps excessively in the future - and I'll feel free to remind you to 'stop shouting'.

Poirot - Your frustration aside, you really must have a boring life when you can take the time to devote around 6 or more comments to something as petty.

As stated before get a life.

So why do they make the arduous decision
to leave their homes and family to come here,
Lexi,
For a reason you simply refuse to comprehend/accept. They do what they are told to do.

cohenite, I fail to see how posting;

"There is much unwarranted hysteria towards these people, mostly of a racial nature, which has no place in Australian society. Hysteria propagated by white supremacists and other racially driven people."

How can this be interpreted as support for Islam, To make it clear and unequivocal I do not support any religion, I do not hold any belief in a supernatural being.
Not all white supremacists or racist people are to be found ranting and raving in the streets, they are the small vocal minority, most are reserved and unassuming, not members of the KKK or some such radical organisation. The little old lady who believes Asia for the Asians, and Australia for the White people, will not see herself as "racists" she will most likely justify and rationalise her racism with some sort of nonsense like "its God's will, that the races be kept apart etc etc."
As for immigration, although I am not pro religion, I do not believe it should be a detaining factor as to who's in, or who's out. In fact I think it should carry no weight at all.
It is fair to say 100% of asylum seeker are Asian, no Americans, no Europeans, no British. Although the aforementioned groups make up many of the 'visa over stayers' they never get an airing by the usual suspects, naturally that has nothing to do with race, or does it.

"To make it clear and unequivocal I do not support any religion, I do not hold any belief in a supernatural being."

Good to know. What do you make of this:

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/violent-muslim-rioter-mahmoud-eid-behind-bars/story-e6freuy9-1226638580412

I repeat, my concern is that the boat-people are queue-jumpers who have considerable doubt about their refugee status; they are also conspiring with criminal gangs who are undermining Australia's border security, something everyone should be greatly concerned with given the details in the link I provide.

Meanwhile, as I say, genuine refugees are rotting.

With islam, please note in the link that the convicted muslim would not stand when the Magistrate entered the court on the basis of his religious beliefs. In microcosm this is what islam represents for our Western system. And it is this which exasperates me and any reasonable person when the hand-wringers come out and support the islamists.

Yes! Cohenite it worries me too, "Fernwood" a ladies only gym where Muslim ladies attend have to be told a male repair person will be on the premises, this almost causes hysteria amongst them, they also have a prayer room for their convenience, why are we catering for the whims of one religious group of people, the more Muslim people who enter the country illegally, the more we will be taken over by their laws of the land they have just left, please if you like these laws, stay at home and don' t come here.

cohenite, your story from the Murdoch fish wrapper is okay by me. What is the point? Are you insinuating Mr Eid and his mates are representative of all Muslims in Australia, about half a million of them. Eid by my way of thinking is a religious nutter and should be locked up, and he is!
I could easily post a link to a story about Denis McAlinden. By that I could be insinuating McAlinden is typical of all 13 million Christians in Australia, and I would be wrong.

Paul, not every catholic is a child molester but there is a collective responsibility of all catholics for the crimes committed under the imprimateur of the catholic church.

Can you point to a similar standard of responsibility for islam which has far greater crimes committed in its name than the catholic church?

I think it is good that the catholic church is now being held to account but why is there such reluctance to do the same with the barbaric behaviour done in islam's name.

As a corrollary can those muslims who are not violent be called 'moderate' simply because they are not physically violent but still support the introduction of sharia?

The Australian Muslim Community is a large, diverse,
heterogenous group composed of 120 ethnic and/or
linguistic backgrounds, each with their own unique
cultural norms but with one underlying element -
they are all Australians.

To lump all these people into one group and denigrate
them, is surely un-Australian behaviour.
These people are not being given a "fair go."

Melbourne hosted the 2009 Parliament of the World's
Religions - Dec. 3 - Dec. 9th 2009. Over 6,000
attended. Issues such as religious conflict and
globalisation, crafting new responses to religious
extremism and confronting homegrown terrorism and
violence, where all issues under discussion, including
Indigenous and Aboriginal spirituality.
Faiths that took part included - Jewish, Christian, Muslim,
Buddhist, Sikh, Hindu (to name just a few).

The next Parliament is to be held in 2014 in Brussels,
Belgium

cont'd ...

The standard of responsibility by the Catholic Church
is sadly a very low one.
The sexual abuse of children is horrendous and
intolerable and the failure of the Church to deal with
it effectively has done immeasurable damage to victims.
The cover-ups, the protection of abusive clergy and the
refusal to admit egregious mistakes is unjustifiable.

Let us only hope that the Royal Commission (about time)
can force the Church to finally be held to account, although
I doubt if the Royal Commission will even exist if Mr Abbott
is made PM - and Cardinal Pell has his say.

Lexi and Poirot you are good at avoiding question so I have just 1 for you.

Do you think these people are real or economic refugees?
Information from link provided by Lexi.

case 1) "the 60-year-old Hazara farmer He spent 13 years in Iran before embarking on the trip to Australia. He had to leave his wife, two daughters and four sons behind in Iran."

case 2) "Hamad is older and has lived in Iran for most of his life. He travelled to Indonesia via Turkey, where his family is now living."

case 3) “It is difficult for us to afford our lives in Indonesia,” they said. Abdul told us that people develop psychological problems because life is so meaningless.

case 4) "His damning assessment highlighted the lack of engagement the Hazaras have with the country that has given them protection. Australia is the prize"

case 5) "I don’t have a lot of money and I have to send money to my family. There is no work here."

"The Australian Muslim Community is a large, diverse,
heterogenous group composed of 120 ethnic and/or
linguistic backgrounds, each with their own unique
cultural norms but with one underlying element -
they are all Australians.

To lump all these people into one group and denigrate
them, is surely un-Australian behaviour.
These people are not being given a "fair go."

If the issue wasn't so serious that would be risible; instead it is an act of self-delusion and self-indulgence which literally threatens the integrity of Australian society.

This conference is more to the point:

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/if_wilders_is_wrong_explain_this_conference/

Islam is the most aggressive and oppressive 'religion' in the world; as I have said it is astounding that any woman would support it; but apparently Summers had an insight [her only one] into the female psyche when she termed the phase "God's police and damned whores". How else to explain those women who willingly take on the shackles offered by islam.

I would add another category; the emily-lister; who is so disgruntled with her own situation in Western society that she projects that personal quality onto Western society, alligns herself to those ideologies which are against the West and is blinded by the worse prospects offered by those ideologies such as islam because she dimwittedly concludes that because islam is against the West it must be like her.

Dumb and dangerous.

The Australian Muslim Community is a large, diverse,
heterogenous group composed of 120 ethnic and/or
linguistic backgrounds, each with their own unique
cultural norms but with one underlying element -
they are all Australians.
Lexi,
Yes for now but, just wait until the numbers are right.

When was it decided that all the concerns, issues,
policies and pre-occupations of this country had to
be divided into a "them" and "us" dogfight?

Australians' interests are far more complex than those
who insist on seeing all discussions through a very fixed
ideological viewfinder. Such one-eyed bias is a
triumph for negativity.

It has been an interesting and robust discussion
and also sadly - a real eye-opener.

Some of us seem to forget that - Australia has become home
to thousands of asylum seekers, most of whom had no
option but to leave their countries of origin. Most people
find that the nature of being Australian is to be
part of the rich diversity of this country.
Which is in keeping
with the sense of potential and openness that so many people
enjoyed on coming here. And, most of them feel privileged
not only to have been able to make a home here but also
to have found their own sense of belonging.

Of course welcoming asylum seekers involves taking some
considerable risks, but in the end, through interaction and
discussion, we'll sort the problems out as we've always done.
Almost every human advance is based on experiment, innovation,
and adventure.

Fro me this discussion has now run its course. I wish
you all well - and simply ask that you re-read your posts
before posting remembering that you don't really know the
people you're addressing who don't agree with your point of
view and sweeping generalisations or personal insults simply
lowers the bar of the discussions. Try to be better than
that, if you can.

Lexi,
what you seem to not notice is that those of us who care about the future of Australia find it offensive that some posters refuse to accept what some of us have already experienced & are trying hard to make it sink in with those who don't accept reality. WE are the ones being discriminated against by those who have nothing more than idealistic fuzziness filling their minds.
We get reminded at every post how wrong we are & how we need to learn to be better to those who do not have our interests at heart. I find it offensive to read ignorant posts written by people who live off our taxes.

Lexi - Not very eloquently put YOU fail continually to answer questions.
You posted a link to support your argument, I have given quotes that show clearly they are ECONOMIC refugees only.

Why don't you acknowledge you are wrong.

Quote "simply ask that you re-read your posts before posting " You should take your own advice then if you take off the blinkers will see reality.

All your linked people are economic refugees.

"Australians' interests are far more complex than those
who insist on seeing all discussions through a very fixed
ideological viewfinder. Such one-eyed bias is a
triumph for negativity."

And only superior and moral types like Lexi can recognise this complexity.

How arrogant and out of touch is that?

Off you go Tinkerbell

If asking for reasonable discussions is being
"arrogant and out of touch," then that's a rather
sad state of affairs that things have come to this.
If reasonableness is now a rarity then something
awful has happened to the public discourse.

After all our posters on OLO, like the voters
in this country are remarkably diverse.
They come in all persuasions, city and country folk,
very young and very old, straight, gay, and
everything else. They are all welcome to their views,
within the limits of defamation and good taste. If that
angers some people, well that is, as we used to say,
stiff cheddar. All should be heard,
Reasonably.

And if that makes me "superior," then that's something
I shall wear as a badge of honour. It's better than the
alternative.

And BTW - I love "Tinkerbell." She was someone who
fixed things and had the capacity to bring a light to a
child's eye. (sigh).

coheite,

If Lexi's Tinkerbell.

Then you must be.......http://www.rohpress.com/images/hook.gif

Egad!

Lexi - You are too scared to answer the question I asked you so what right do you have to lecture people.

QUOTE "If asking for reasonable discussions" It would be impossible to have a meaningful discussion with YOU as you fail to answer any questions that may show you are wrong.

Poirot, I don't have a moustache.

Lexi, you don't get it, the diversity which you extol the virtues of is anathema to islam; if islam has its way there will be no diversity, just a bleak sea of faceless burgas.

Islam doesn't like fairy-tales either.

Grow up.

Australia has a long history of welcoming migrants, many of whom could well have brought their own private wars with them. We've been unbelievably lucky that the irish didn't being 'the troubles', the italians / sicilians their mafia, the japanese their yakuza, the chinese their triads etc etc. Sure there may be the odd gang member from these mobs but by and large we've avoided the really bad problems purely by luck. Islamics (of whatever origin) however are a completely different barrel of fish. Firstly, they are not by their own admission the types to integrate, secondly their religious fanaticism is totally incompatible with australian culture and thirdly, their extremely high birthrate compared with 95% of Australians means they could well 'take over' within our lifetime. For the 'lets welcome all and sundry' fraternity, I'm not necessarily saying to stop all islamic migration, rather I'm saying I perceive massive problems if we don't wake up & demand a referendum or whatever so that the will of the sheeple is heard by the bloodsucking parasites who currently don't give a rats about where this country is heading. the issue is far too important to be decided by a few bleeding hearts or worse still, the avaricious leech lawyers making zillions representing boat people.