Job 12:7-9 - But ask the animals, and they will teach you, or the birds of the air, and they will tell you; or speak to the earth, and it will teach you, or let the fish of the sea inform you. Which of all these does not know that the hand of the LORD has done this?

Pericles, surely, desperate people in Somalia, Congo, Iraq, Mexico and the like only think of surviving another grim day, but that doesn't invalidate Brian's argument. I see his argument squarely aimed at fortunate people who live in benign environments and who have been caught up in the business of fictitious gods or pretentious spiritualities. It does not follow that we should not reflect on our own experiences simply because they are irrelevant to others.

Oh, those wicked materialists! Now they want us to stop enjoying walks in the bush...

What's that? They don't? In fact they enjoy them too? Well, then, they must be trying to stop us enjoying the sunshine and happy feelings!

Oh, not that either? Gosh darn it all, what CAN we find to blame those wicked materialists for? There's got to be something, surely?

Because while it's perfectly all right for me to claim to be a materialist, I'm going to lose my smug sense of superiority if everyone else claims to be one too.

yes live in la la land and ignore true science. Creation speaks clearly of a Creator and scientist know something can't come from nothing. No amount of pseudo science falsifications will prevent us facing our Maker. Hopefully you have asked the Lord Jesus to forgive your sins of which everyone has partaken of. Nature worship is just paganism dressed up in a religous cloak.

How so, Willem?

>>Pericles, surely, desperate people in Somalia, Congo, Iraq, Mexico and the like only think of surviving another grim day, but that doesn't invalidate Brian's argument.<<

Brian argues against materialism, and for spirituality. My point was to highlight the contribution that materialism has made to his ability to indulge himself in "fantasies which enrich the inner self".

>>I see his argument squarely aimed at fortunate people who live in benign environments and who have been caught up in the business of fictitious gods or pretentious spiritualities<<

That is, of course, an interpretation. But I'm not sure I could identify which part of Brian's piece gets even close to articulating that angle. Are you sure that you are not interpolating your own views? Nothing wrong with that, of course, except that it turns the article as a whole, from a general homily to the world into an entirely personal-to-you message.

>>It does not follow that we should not reflect on our own experiences simply because they are irrelevant to others<<

I would have thought that - given we are discussing the advice he plans to impart to his grandchildren - experiences are germane to the entire process. His own experience, of having the freedom to become spiritual as a result of prior materialistic achievements, should surely be fundamental to his message?

My reference to Somali refugees was merely to highlight the fact that spiritualism of the kind Mr Holden advocates, is little more than a self-indulgent first-world luxury.

Pericles, you say: >>My reference to Somali refugees was merely to highlight the fact that spiritualism of the kind Mr Holden advocates, is little more than a self-indulgent first-world luxury.<< I see your point. But should we deny ourselves our exultations simply because we happened to benefit from benign material conditions? Whether Mr Holden’s argument includes an acknowledgement that his ‘spirituality’ was facilitated by his material conditions or not doesn’t make much difference to me. Mr Holden’s ‘spirituality’ may very well not be able to exist in extreme contexts such as the Somalian sheltering under a wind-swept bush, but it remains a valid proposition in most other contexts. If not, what is the alternative for the billions across the globe living under relatively benign material conditions? To discount or deny their ‘spirituality’ because it was ill-conceived?