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The Forum > Article Comments > The church that I will advise my grandchildren to attend > Comments

The church that I will advise my grandchildren to attend : Comments

By Brian Holden, published 26/3/2013

The religious know that all is not what it seems, but their assumption of a supernatural presence is wrong.

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Thank you for a brilliantly composed essay. I copied the last two paragraphs to my two teenagers and wife. I have never heard anyone define our human condition with such truthfulness, yet so sensitive to people's different experiences.
Posted by Willem, Tuesday, 26 March 2013 8:48:51 AM
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In his book on religion and society Phil Zuckerman summed up how a society little under the influence of conventional religions can be excellent when he wrote,
"As a social scientist, I cannot make any grand predictions concerning the future trajectory of the human experience here on this earth. But what I can at least do is attempt to paint a portrait of a society that currently exists, right now, at the beginning of the twenty-first century, just below the Arctic Circle, wherein most people don't believe much in God, don't accept the supernatural claims of religion as literally true, seldom go to church at all, and live their lives in a largely secular culture wherein death is calmly, if not stoically, accepted as simply a natural phenomenon and the ultimate meaning of life is nothing more or less than what you make of it. The existence of this relatively irreligious society suggests that religious faith - while admittedly widespread - is not natural or innate to the human condition. Nor is religion a necessary ingredient for a healthy, peaceful, prosperous, and (have I already said it?) deeply good society".

I particularly appreciate the comment; "The ultimate meaning of life is nothing more or less than what you make of it." That seems to me to be what Brian Holden is saying.
Posted by Foyle, Tuesday, 26 March 2013 9:36:53 AM
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This great article gives a better perspective on spirituality than the religious one by Sells that has generated many comments and arguments but no conclusions.

Brian, I hold a similar position to you and we are somewhat unique. We can look at nature without working out how to make a buck via open-cut mining or chopping down all the trees.

The problem is that we live among Philistines and Barbarians who don't understand nature at all or real spirituality. All they understand is creating endless war, killing those who hold different views to them, and playing the stock market.

Poor, sad creatures!
Posted by David G, Tuesday, 26 March 2013 10:05:09 AM
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Lucky you indeed, Mr Holden.

"I will inform my grandchildren that they must find a way to escape the path towards total materialism that technology must, by its essential nature, be forever driving itself. I will inform them that trees and breezes and clouds and changing colours as the sun sets is the true church."

I hope that you will also inform them that it was actually several generations of "materialism" that presently allows you the luxury of indulging yourself amongst the trees, the breezes and the clouds.

If you doubt me, ask a Somalian refugee who has found "shelter" in Ethiopia.

http://www.refugeesinternational.org/where-we-work/africa/somalia?gclid=CKKO24GOmbYCFQocpQodIX8Azg

Have a wonderful, spiritual day.
Posted by Pericles, Tuesday, 26 March 2013 10:22:12 AM
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A wonderful, well written article that sums up my thoughts very well.
Thank you Brian
Posted by GYM-FISH, Tuesday, 26 March 2013 10:33:19 AM
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While I identify with Brian's walk in the forest he seems to me to be cherry picking among natures many faces. I am reminded that nature also provided the plague in Europe, the Lisbon earthquake as well as the event off the coast of Indonesia in our own time that killed so many. Nature provides us with the AIDs virus.. should I go on.

No, nature is not the solution to our unease at being sentient. While it may be glorious and inspiring it is also completely subject to death.
Posted by Sells, Tuesday, 26 March 2013 11:35:09 AM
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Job 12:7-9 - But ask the animals, and they will teach you, or the birds of the air, and they will tell you; or speak to the earth, and it will teach you, or let the fish of the sea inform you. Which of all these does not know that the hand of the LORD has done this?
Posted by diver dan, Tuesday, 26 March 2013 11:55:41 AM
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Pericles, surely, desperate people in Somalia, Congo, Iraq, Mexico and the like only think of surviving another grim day, but that doesn't invalidate Brian's argument. I see his argument squarely aimed at fortunate people who live in benign environments and who have been caught up in the business of fictitious gods or pretentious spiritualities. It does not follow that we should not reflect on our own experiences simply because they are irrelevant to others.
Posted by Willem, Tuesday, 26 March 2013 11:59:38 AM
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Oh, those wicked materialists! Now they want us to stop enjoying walks in the bush...

What's that? They don't? In fact they enjoy them too? Well, then, they must be trying to stop us enjoying the sunshine and happy feelings!

Oh, not that either? Gosh darn it all, what CAN we find to blame those wicked materialists for? There's got to be something, surely?

Because while it's perfectly all right for me to claim to be a materialist, I'm going to lose my smug sense of superiority if everyone else claims to be one too.
Posted by Jon J, Tuesday, 26 March 2013 12:49:08 PM
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yes live in la la land and ignore true science. Creation speaks clearly of a Creator and scientist know something can't come from nothing. No amount of pseudo science falsifications will prevent us facing our Maker. Hopefully you have asked the Lord Jesus to forgive your sins of which everyone has partaken of. Nature worship is just paganism dressed up in a religous cloak.
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 26 March 2013 1:00:49 PM
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How so, Willem?

>>Pericles, surely, desperate people in Somalia, Congo, Iraq, Mexico and the like only think of surviving another grim day, but that doesn't invalidate Brian's argument.<<

Brian argues against materialism, and for spirituality. My point was to highlight the contribution that materialism has made to his ability to indulge himself in "fantasies which enrich the inner self".

>>I see his argument squarely aimed at fortunate people who live in benign environments and who have been caught up in the business of fictitious gods or pretentious spiritualities<<

That is, of course, an interpretation. But I'm not sure I could identify which part of Brian's piece gets even close to articulating that angle. Are you sure that you are not interpolating your own views? Nothing wrong with that, of course, except that it turns the article as a whole, from a general homily to the world into an entirely personal-to-you message.

>>It does not follow that we should not reflect on our own experiences simply because they are irrelevant to others<<

I would have thought that - given we are discussing the advice he plans to impart to his grandchildren - experiences are germane to the entire process. His own experience, of having the freedom to become spiritual as a result of prior materialistic achievements, should surely be fundamental to his message?

My reference to Somali refugees was merely to highlight the fact that spiritualism of the kind Mr Holden advocates, is little more than a self-indulgent first-world luxury.
Posted by Pericles, Tuesday, 26 March 2013 1:32:15 PM
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Pericles, you say: >>My reference to Somali refugees was merely to highlight the fact that spiritualism of the kind Mr Holden advocates, is little more than a self-indulgent first-world luxury.<< I see your point. But should we deny ourselves our exultations simply because we happened to benefit from benign material conditions? Whether Mr Holden’s argument includes an acknowledgement that his ‘spirituality’ was facilitated by his material conditions or not doesn’t make much difference to me. Mr Holden’s ‘spirituality’ may very well not be able to exist in extreme contexts such as the Somalian sheltering under a wind-swept bush, but it remains a valid proposition in most other contexts. If not, what is the alternative for the billions across the globe living under relatively benign material conditions? To discount or deny their ‘spirituality’ because it was ill-conceived?
Posted by Willem, Tuesday, 26 March 2013 3:27:39 PM
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Far be it from me to suggest that Mr Holden should not be allowed to wallow in self-indulgence, Willem

>>...should we deny ourselves our exultations simply because we happened to benefit from benign material conditions?<<

I am sure he has earned it.

It just came as a bit of a surprise that he would believe this is a sublime lesson in life for his grandchildren. From my experience of the current crop of youngsters, they are infinitely more societally aware than their grandparents, and would look very strangely on someone who ignores the sheer good fortune that precedes those "exultations".

I was just trying to help Mr Holden avoid an unnecessary ideological rift with his grandkids, that's all. To quote the man himself:

"The key word is 'awareness'. From awareness evolves transcendence. Then your focus on your desires and your problems can be left behind."

I was simply ensuring that he was aware of the part that his personal, materialistic good fortune plays in the shaping of the advice he intends to pass on to his grandchildren. To decry materialism in favour of spirituality is to miss the point. They are not mutually exclusive, after all, so why exhort them to escape materialism in order to embrace spirituality?
Posted by Pericles, Tuesday, 26 March 2013 3:56:08 PM
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Interesting that psychiatrists are now the authority on religious experience. Not sure they have any greater claim to know the difference than a priest.
Posted by Sar, Tuesday, 26 March 2013 5:40:14 PM
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Sar, the priest just regurgitates his lines, hopes like hell that no one will question their sensibility or their ridiculous contradictions and childish premises.

The psychiatrist however knows humans are deeply flawed and, deep within, sees him or her self as more flawed than most.
Posted by David G, Tuesday, 26 March 2013 6:29:02 PM
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Pericles, one last comment. Even if our material good fortune enables Mr Holden's kind of 'spiritualism', and we acknowledge it, why can't we move on and aspire to a less materialistic condition that is in greater harmony with nature? I see no potential 'ideological rift' here. To me the article does not sound 'wallowing in self-indulgence', nor does it sound of entitlement, and nor does it sound denialist. In Mr Holden's words, we might search for 'a way to escape the path towards total materialism', 'total' being the operative word. To be fair to Mr Holden.
Posted by Willem, Tuesday, 26 March 2013 7:43:51 PM
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Indeed, the article is an impressive (and beautiful) expression of what nowadays is called “spiritual atheism” (my Google brought 5.5million references to the term, probably all relatively recent). Spiritual atheism is a new phenomenon that also religious people should not dismiss, although it somehow looks like a plastic replica of the original spirituality, or even mysticism, of the traditional religions, Eastern or Western.
Posted by George, Wednesday, 27 March 2013 9:10:09 AM
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And one last comment from me, Willem.

>>... why can't we move on and aspire to a less materialistic condition that is in greater harmony with nature?<<

We can. There is no reason why we cannot. In fact, we probably should, if we already have the materialistic past that enables us to do so. I am fairly certain that many people who are financially comfortably will be very happy to adopt Mr Holden's approach, and "sit on a rock to watch the movement of the leaves in the breeze".

My only observation was that in order to be post-materialistic, if I may so generalize it, one has to previously have been materialistic. Or to have somehow benefitted from someone else's materialism. To set the two in opposition to each other as Mr Holden has done is to tell only half the story - that spiritualism, in the context he provides, is actually a product of materialism. That's all. Which makes the advice-to-grandchildren part just a little hollow.
Posted by Pericles, Wednesday, 27 March 2013 9:11:34 AM
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