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The Forum > Article Comments > Francis: the pope of surprises > Comments

Francis: the pope of surprises : Comments

By James van Schie, published 15/3/2013

Media commentators decided that it was really a question 'who can deliver a swing in the marginal Catholic seats of western Europe or the east and west coast of the USA?'

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These 1.2 billion naive "catholics" pretend that they are "saved" via the presumed "blood sacrifice" of Jesus, and thus the presumed "resurrection" of his body and his "ascension" to "heaven".

And yet if you ask any of them to explain what any of the words I used refer to in very real here-and-now terms they would not be able to so.

Furthermore, none of the more seemingly sophisticated explanations used by the Jesuit spin-meisters can do so either. It is all just brain created language games, the purpose of which is to mystify, and thus control the minds and bodies of the childish followers.
It is all quite literally towers of babel/babble.

Furthermore the use of the word "father" in relation to the poop, signifies in very real terms that the naively childish followers are quite literally kept in a state of childish incredulity, and thus effectively prevented from growing up into mature autonomous adult human beings.

The use of the term "original sin" effectively does this too. There is some supposedly insurmountable fault which supposedly prevents us from taking full responsibilty for our presence and actions in the world.

So too, with the "catholic" practice of confession. It is (again) a device which in one way or another effectively prevents the dreadfully sane propagandized believer from taking full responsibility for his/her presence and actions in the world. A device which lets them off the hook.

Taking full responsibility for ones presence and actions in the world is admittedly very difficult to do. But such responsibility is the very essence of being a fully autonomous human being.
There is no True Humanity without such lived responsibility. The capacity to respond with all of ones heart, mind, breath, and strength to any and every person and circumstance that arises in ones life.

There is NO one or thing to blame - including the "devil" or "satan".
Posted by Daffy Duck, Friday, 15 March 2013 4:06:38 PM
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This video provides a suitable antidote to all the pious nonsense being spoken and written about the poop, the poop-hole called the vatican, and the "catholic" church.
http://www.brasschecktv.com/videos/religion-inc/report-from-the-vatican.html

Plus where is Dave Allen when we most need him?
His lampooning of the absurdities of "catholic" dogma etc etc were always a delight.
Many of his classic "sermons" etc are available on Youtube.

One wonders if he would even be allowed on Australian TV in these politically correct times.
Politically correct, because I am sure that in the now-time of 2013 all of the usual self-righteous conservative Christians would be lobbying to disallow his weekly show being featured on the ABC - if such were proposed.
Posted by Daffy Duck, Friday, 15 March 2013 6:25:38 PM
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Dear Daffy,

One should indeed take full responsibility for one's presence and actions in the world. The original sin is not some fancy and childish story about Adam and Eve in the garden - our presence in the world IS the original sin and everyone who is in this world may blame him/herself alone for it. By the desire to "know", symbolised by the tree of knowledge, we have strayed from God, interposing our mind between ourselves and Him.

We are not humans, never were - it is by our sins that we mistakenly consider ourselves to be flesh and blood.

I do not expect you to understand half of that, but perhaps others may.

I wish Pope Francis a long and fruitful life of cleansing his church from corruption and degeneration and uplifting his flock away from the vanities of the world and humanity into the waiting and loving arms of the Lord. May he by this blessed and unselfish service expiate his sins so that afterwards he can join God forever, never to return to the world of sin.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Friday, 15 March 2013 6:26:14 PM
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[Deleted for abuse.]
Posted by Daffy Duck, Friday, 15 March 2013 8:50:29 PM
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Daffy Duck, your posts indicate your misconception of the teachings of the Catholic Church.

It is not clear whether you come from an atheistic or religious background. Regardless, if you are interested, you may find out how others with such background overcame their misconceptions over time, in some cases after scores of years. The series that may be of interest is the EWTN TV weekly program, "The Journey Home with Marcus Grodi ", some 700 past audio recordings of which may be accessed at:

http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/seriessearchprog.asp?seriesID=-6892289&T1=journey+home
Posted by Raycom, Friday, 15 March 2013 10:33:25 PM
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Wasn't Francis a talking mule in a past life?
Posted by David G, Saturday, 16 March 2013 8:59:41 AM
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Raycom - I have sufficient knowledge of the teachings of the "catholic" church to know that there is not a smidgen of one iota of truth in any of it.

It is all lies and has nothing whatsoever to do with the universal, non-Christian, non-sectarian, Spirit-Breathing Spiritual Way of Life that Saint Jesus of Galilee taught and demonstrated while he was alive.
Nor with what Saint Jesus taught about the Kingdom of God - "where" and what it is, the Spiritual means by which each and every human being can enter into the Kingdom IN THIS LIFE-TIME, and the necessary comprehensive psycho-physical self discipline which supports and assists that Process of self-transformation and more importantly, self transcendence.

NO one goes to "heaven" when they die - wherever that could possibly be!
Posted by Daffy Duck, Saturday, 16 March 2013 10:14:32 AM
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For many years it was widely felt that as science
progressively provided rational explanations for the
mysteries of the universe, religion would have less and
less of a role to play and would even disappear, unmasked as
nothing more than superstition. But there are still gaps
in our understanding that science can never fill.
On the ultimately important questions - of the meaning and
purpose of life and the nature of morality - science is
utterly silent and, by its very nature, always will be.

Few citizens of modern societies would utterly deny
the possibility of some higher power in the universe,
some supernatural, transcendental realm that lies beyond
the boundaries of ordinary experience, and in this
fundamental sense religion is probably here to say.

As for the new Pope - people of goodwill can only hope that
Catholics will gain the genuine leadership that their
Church so desperately needs and a willingness to confront
both the difficulties and opportunities that the Church
faces. Let us trust that the new Pope is uniquely placed
to be able to do precisely that. We can only wish him well.
Posted by Lexi, Saturday, 16 March 2013 12:21:37 PM
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People who talk in absolutes often do so in order to hide their own cognitive limitations. People who talk in vitriolic absolutes in particular may be understood in this way.
Posted by Otokonoko, Saturday, 16 March 2013 4:06:41 PM
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If the new Pope was 'humble' in any meaningful sense of the word, he would long ago have abandoned an organization that officially believes that the universe was made for the benefit of human beings, and its CEO has a hotline to God. Like so many religious terms, 'humble' seems to mean something quite different in the mouth of a theist.
Posted by Jon J, Saturday, 16 March 2013 4:54:27 PM
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Jon J, I understand that you have a fair few bones to pick with the Catholic Church, and from some of your previous posts I understand that you have a very good reason for your stance. The Church cannot with any integrity make excuses for its transgressions.

As for the new Pope, though, and the assertions that he is 'humble' - time will tell. I have been interested to see the media beat-up of his humility - carrying his own bags, riding on buses and shunning fancy vestments. I carry my own bags and use public transport when I travel. I call that 'normal', not 'humble'. I'd like to think I'd do it even if someone else offered to do the job for me, but that has never been tested.

Two other things: you speak of Catholics 'officially' believing that the universe was made for the benefit of human beings. I'm not sure that this is the case. As a teacher in a Catholic school, we teach the 'Catholic value' of custodianship, not ownership. I don't know how exclusively 'Catholic' that value is (many non-Catholics share that position), but it suggests that we have a duty to look after - rather than own - the world around us. Secondly, you state that the Pope should - given his alleged humility - have abandoned the institution he now leads. My alternative take on that stance is that a humble person may be able to see a core of good in a thoroughly corrupt institution and strive to enhance that core rather than throwing the whole thing away.

While the Church has been responsible for many horrific things, it cannot with real honesty be denied that it does some good for the world as well. It's the duty of a Pope who professes humility and decency to atone for the wrongs and enhance the rights.

Of course, I respect your views and, like I said, I think I understand where they come from. I just thought I'd offer my alternative view as a Catholic who still holds some faith in the church.
Posted by Otokonoko, Saturday, 16 March 2013 5:17:52 PM
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An inspiring article, well done.

For many it is sufficient to lead a 'good life', to try to avoid harming others, to raise a family, to be materially successful by honest labour - and not at the expense of others. But for very many there needs to be more to life, some celebration of life itself and all it offers to us as individuals and as a community, a culture, a nation, and celebrate this in spirit, or in spirituality. Many and diverse are such celebrations of the spirit of being.

And, there are those who have such a strong belief in purpose that they strive to go above and beyond attending to their own needs, and reach out to help others less fortunate, less well, less capable. Certainly there are those who attend to such needs in the world without the motivation of any purpose beyond their recognition of need, and their own strong feelings of compassion; but in spite of not professing any religious purpose in their undertakings there is a spirituality exhibited in their demeanor and in their good works.

One should be thankful for these 'Samaritans' of good works, and offer praise for their efforts where so many others would not even dare to tread. But some can only criticize, while not finding it within themselves to follow a similar path, not even in small measure - save only for a donation here and there, to the Salvo's or Vinnies, and consider this sufficient, or more than sufficient contribution to aid others in need. A small gratuity to salve conscience, and perhaps guilt for not giving or doing more. But, still not recognising the far greater efforts of others.

There is something strange about those who knock a good thing - even if that thing is not perfect, but is also occasionally subject to human frailty - those who fail to see beyond the individual, or refuse to see.

And, David G, you are a sad human being.
Posted by Saltpetre, Sunday, 17 March 2013 10:35:56 PM
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Saltpetre, you're right, I do get sad when I hear about clerics sexually molesting little children and young people.

It seems the worst evil to me, the fact that clerics who are supposed to be living lives without sin are in fact preying on the young.

I suppose when you read stories about people who were molested and destroyed by religious molesters, you just close your tiny mind and pretend it doesn't happen or, if it did, the person really didn't mean to do any harm.

I say 'bollocks' to such rubbish. People who hide their evil under clerical robes are the the most evil of all and should receive the harshest of penalties!
Posted by David G, Monday, 18 March 2013 9:43:30 AM
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David G,

>People who hide their evil under clerical robes are the the most evil of all and should receive the harshest of penalties!<

I fully agree, it is abhorrent, and rightly to be condemned in the harshest and most virulent terms; but it is wrong to tar all with the same brush, for surely such predators are very greatly in the minority, and there are so very many who give long and totally unblemished service to their constituencies and beyond.

I don't know how such predators manage to get themselves into any position of authority, with access to young, innocent, vulnerable children, and this rightly needs to be fully investigated - both to bring such predators to justice and to preclude any further intrusion of the likes of these into any areas of church activity.

Much as I feel sorry for anyone suffering such forms of mental disturbance as would lead them to prey upon the young or the old, the weak, the vulnerable, be it in religious service, hospitals, nursing homes, orphanages, prisons, or so many other avenues providing a guise of authority - and would hope they could seek help to deal with their problem - the law must still be brought to bear with haste and precision. There should be no place for them in any position of authority.

That said, we cannot condemn the whole of the police service because of an occasional bent copper, nor the whole of the defence forces because of the presence of some sexual predators in their midst, or because of some moronic and misguided induction procedures. It is the ratbags who need to be weeded out and punished, to cleanse and restore the overall service to required standards of health, reliability and service to the community. Francis has such a role in the Catholic Church, would that all others were similarly so fully committed.
Posted by Saltpetre, Monday, 18 March 2013 12:28:33 PM
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Two lions meet.

Asks one lion: how come you are so fat and healthy while I am so skinny and miserable?
Answered the other lion: well, there's this high-rise building in town, a government-department of a sort, I made a habit of going there every day and having two employees for lunch. Nobody ever noticed.

A year later they meet again.

Asks the first lion: how come you were so fat last year and now you are skin-and-bones, lame and scratched all over?
Answered the second: I made a terrible mistake - one day I ate the tea lady!

Similarly as soon as it were Catholic priests who've been involved in paedophilia, people started to feverishly care about child-abuse: thanks to eating the tea-lady, thousands of public-servants were saved; thanks to paedophiles being members of the clergy, thousands of children were saved. Had they instead been for example union officials, paedophilia would still be socially acceptable.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Monday, 18 March 2013 3:52:40 PM
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