Helens comments are welcomed; I soon expect them to generate a welter of complaint from those who rallied behind Andrews Frasers muted call to arms. Sadly our false memories are often those of our former colonial masters and never really had any currency here.

Her reference ot false memory is salient as Australian History short as it is has given rise to countless false memories many of which are resident deeop in the hearts and the minds of the more nervous in our midst.

Australian is what it is; it is multi cultural and always has been in one way or another. Ballarat, Broome, Brunswick et al have all in times gone by and now given rise to vibrant multi cultural environments - there has always been those who fail to recognise it because they choose not to and the notion scares them witless - but denial will not make the coloured men ar women go away. Ms Pringle is on the money.

It is the opponents of multiculturalism who are really the un Australians amongst us as they fail to recognise the facts; their Australia wouild seem to end at the path to the letter box or the well travelled route to the RSL, Leagues, Golf or Bowling Club or any of the other intellectual ghettos in which they gather and mutter to themselves about the good old days - when ever they were.

Andrew Fraser's psuedo science and the other arguments of convenience lined up behind his covert form of Eugenic propaganda have a place in the debate but not a credible one.

Helen Pringle's article follows the usual formulae of the trendy lefties, the only racists in this world are white people while minorities such as the lovely Chinese are paragons of virtue.

Get real, Helen. If you would like to read what Chinese think of white people, read "The Year the Dragon Came" by a Chinese author who interviewed Chinese immigrants in Australia, and asked their impressions of this country and it's people. The responses were utterly racist and derogatory towards whites.

Furthermore, the Chinese could teach the Nazi's a thing or two about racism. For centuries, male negro slaves sold to China had to be castrated before sale. This has modern parallels when in the 1990's, the Chinese government enacted a law to prevent Chinese girls from dating African men attending a medical school in Peking. They did not want their race polluted by blacks, and there are no minorities on the Chinese Communist Party Central Committee.

Mr Fraser is also correct in stating that Chinese business practices are somewhat different from western ones. Chinese busineses are centred upon provincial "kongsi's" or "tongs" where the vested interests of provincial regions in China are considered uppermost. An appreciation of these practices may be gleaned by the excellent book "Lords of the Rim."

Fraser is correct in stating that orientals may soon be the new ruling class in Australia's bureaucracy. My own high school of Sydney Boy's High had only 2 Asian boys out of 1000 in 1970. Today, the figure would be 70% Chinese, 20% Indian and 10% white.

Finally she sneers at the idea of an Australia largely white and crime free. It was, Helen. But today we look at the bullet swept streets of Sydney which is homew to Muslim race hate rape packs and soon, suicide bombers, and we wonder why we ever allowed people like you to shove this "multiculturalism" nonesence down our throats.

Unlike some people, I do not know enough yet to make any judgement on Andrew Fraser’s stance concerning race. I hoped to find in Helen Pringle’s piece evidence that “Fraser’s wild claims”, as she calls them, are wrong. But she merely makes her own claim of “no evidence”. At least Fraser refers us to what he believes is evidence to support his claims so that we can look at it and make up our own minds.

Pringle refers to 19th century Australians of Chines ethnicity. Many of these people were, and still are, fine Australians who have contributed to Australia in many ways without the clannishness to which Fraser refers. But Fraser wasn’t talking about the Chick Tongs of Australia and previous centuries. He was talking about now and the future, and an entirely different lot of Chinese who definitely do stick together with the help of an enforced multiculturalism policy. No evidence other than what a person of average intelligence can see with his or her own eyes is needed to know that Fraser is right on that one. It occurs not only in Australia, but also throughout Southeast Asia and anywhere large populations of ethnic Chinese occur.

sneekeepete, I find your comment about "our former colonial masters" a bit odd: surely those are our ancestors you are talking about?

I have no problem in saying that the core of Australian culture is British. The thing we call "multiculturalism" was built around a British core in Australia exactly as it was in Canada and in Britain itself, with very different results from the "multiculturalism" built around a Latin core in Brazil, for example. (In fact, I tend to think that "multiculturalism" is a foolish term, because it pretends that our culture has no core, whereas it clearly does.)

I like our culture. I like its Britishness, I like its variety and its tolerance, and I see absolutely no reason for identifying that culture with genetics. Anyone who grows up in Australia or becomes part of this culture is absorbing those essentially British values, because that is the way things work. And as we come into contact with more and more people, our culture also absorbs different cultural influences, because that is also the way things work.

Nope: when I says masters that's what I mean. I might concede that they were ancestoral colonial masters but masters non the less.

I find some comments about "the Chinese" now in Australia mildly amusing. For instance, that we definitely stick together. As a long time activist amongst the Chinese Australians I can say that in general the reverse is the case. To a large extent this is due to the very different social, economic, and political circumstances under which we came to Australia, and at different times since the 1970s. For instance,a business migration group, speaking less than competent english, may have little to do with professional migrants who once studied in australian or English universities. Chinese boat people from Vietnam may have little in common with the Bob Hawke sanctioned PRC migrants after the Tiananmen incident. I can go on quite a bit like this.

Andrew Fraser reminds me of Geoffrey Blainey in 1984. Blainey's arguments against multiculturalism, recorded in his book, All for Austrlaia, would probably not pass as a history essay in Year 10. If i remember correctly he said on radio that the Chinese form ghettos, they will never marry out! Now we marry out most, amongst the migrant groups, according to an ABS survey not long ago. Had he looked at the past, as one would expect a professor of history of 20 years would, he would not have found the evidence for such an odd statement.

My hunch is that both academics were trying to breathe a new lease of life in their declining years, by venturing into areas for which they have passion, perhaps prejudice, but little knowlege or understanding.

Of course the times are ripe for these false prophets.

By the way, in China's long history, the barbarian conquerors usually become acculturated to things chinese. A few Chinese migrants
here are not going to change the managerial class in Australia. If you look carefully at he Chinese Asutralian students at high schools and universities you will find that most are very well acculturated to the norms of this society.

chek Ling

"Finally she sneers at the idea of an Australia largely white and crime free. It was, Helen. But today we look at the bullet swept streets of Sydney which is homew to Muslim race hate rape packs and soon, suicide bombers, and we wonder why we ever allowed people like you to shove this "multiculturalism" nonesence down our throats".

So now you have the evidence to link Muslims to 'hate rape packs' now do you? Despite the the fact that most, if not all the gang rapes were committed by non-muslims. You rely far too much on flowery rhetoric and paranoia more than anything else. Not to mention your now a defacto terrorism expert.

Speaking from Singapore (till wednesday), as a 'whitey' who is dealing with a number of Chinese from various companies, and also having a knowledge of the chinese 'clans' of Malaysia, it seems that a little more research is needed by some of us, and Helen Pringle included.

The chinese I'm dealing with are very nice, though one woman is a on the border of 'reality' and 'commercial imperative' thinking that just by saying 'I need it today' it will happpen... dream on. But Clans in malaysia are very clanish, FooChows dont have much to do with TeoChews and Hakka's etc.

Helen pringle did a really dumb thing, actually 2 things. She picked an example which suited her purpose rather than reflecting (as Ian pointed out) the CORE. The 2nd dumb thing Helen did was to think we are stupid enough not to notice what she did !

Australia IS British in the English/Scottish/Irish sense, and more recently has included Europeans from wider afield, but it is still statitically predominantly British.

Scooper.. what drugs r u on ? "most if not all gang rapes committed by non muslims" ? get real mate, and read the available information.
The 'racist' gang rapes were committed by Bilal Skaff and gang, who are muslims, thats why they are in jail for a million years.
It may be true to say 'off all gang rapes' most were not comitted by Muslims, but I don't know the figures

I suggest you take your own advice. Bilal Skaf was Lebanese, and Lebanese people are not Muslims, they are in fact Christian. You've been reading the Daily Telegraph far too much.

Fraser did not make up his non-egalitarian, racist ideas all by himself. He has come to his beliefs after studying, among other things, the works of people who try to explain human behaviour in evolutionary terms. He refers to the work of a Kevin MacDonald (Professor of Psychology, California State University, Long Beach - a man who claims a background in evolutionary biology and who, in the linked article, discusses Jews in quite a worrisome way) who "explains Western 'cultural' traits as an evolutionary adaptation to the rigours of life in cold, ecologically adverse climates."

So MacDonald is a psychologist. Does this mean his paper on the evolutionary origins of Western 'cultural' traits is scientific? Some would like to think so but in fact it's nothing but speculation; on an academic par with 'just so' stories. The people MacDonald might have interviewed and whose DNA he might have sampled are all long dead and therefore unavailable for study. He had no experimental subjects. He just made up this stuff up and he's clever enough to make it sound plausible. That is not the same as doing science and the sooner we recognise that the better off we, and our children, will be.

All this racist blather reminds me strongly of another person whose views were also conceived and nurtured in a culture bathed in evolutionary ideas, who took those ideas seriously and who took it for granted that the high culture within which he lived was the product of his own people's genetic superiority. Within a few years that person had created the conditions that would show just how deeply into barbarism a people, previously of high culture, could sink. If anything could demonstrate that culture has nothing to do with genes (race) Mr Hitler's experiment in evolutionary ethnic cleansing (eugenics) should have done the job.

And "scooper9", Lebanese people may be Christian or they may be Muslim. Bilal Skaf is a Muslim. His brother's name is Mohammed

scooper9,
It is obvious you have read nothing as you are so misinformed about the Scaf family. They are being supported by the Lebenese Muslim community.

Lebanese come in both Christian and Muslim varieties. The CIA world fact book has the following to say about the religous make-up of Lebanon,

"Muslim 59.7% (Shi'a, Sunni, Druze, Isma'ilite, Alawite or Nusayri), Christian 39% (Maronite Catholic, Melkite Catholic, Armenian Orthodox, Syrian Catholic, Armenian Catholic, Roman Catholic, Protestant), other 1.3%"

(http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/le.html#People)

As for Bilal Skaf, we have the following quote from the SMH,

"Mrs Skaf, 41, who has Muslim and Christian friends, seems at odds with her son's apparent attitude to non-Muslim Australians. Apart from racist jibes at the rape victims, one of whom was called an "Aussie pig" during her ordeal, Skaf was the author of this message, found on the mobile phone seized by police: "When you are feeling down ... bash a Christian or Catholic and lift up."

(http://www.smh.com.au/cgi-bin/common/popupPrintArticle.pl?path=/articles/2002/09/07/1031115957991.html)

Not to say muslims have an inclination to gang-rape, just clarifying some obvious misunderstandings.

Muslim men do have an inclination to rape, HarryC.

The gang rape of 70 Australian girls at the time of the Olympics by several Muslim race hate rape packs, is a phenomonon repeated in every western country that has been stupid enough to allow these people to migrate into their societies. It was repeated in Holland, Sweden, Denmark and in France it was named "tournantes" (Literally, "take your turn.")

It is not hard to understand why. Muslims believe that women must dress according to Sharia law any any woman who does not is just a dirty slut. So convinced are they of this that in some Muslim countries, women who wear western clothes have acid thrown in their faces. Even some of their Imams claim that women who dress in western clothes deserve to be raped. One Imam in Melbourne even said it on camera on a 60 minutes interview only a few weeks ago.Add to that, Muslim men believe that as men they have a perfect right to chastise women for their behaviour.

All of this is conducive to forming attitudes approving of rape.

Since the Olympics, hardly a month goes by without another instance of women in Sydney being raped, having their drinks spiked, or being sexually assaulted by men of "Middle Eastern appearance". So prominent are certain ethnicities in serious violent crime that the snivel libertarians tried to stop the NSW police from using ethnic descriptors in the media.

Finally, a serve at Chek Ling. who claims that Chinese integrate. That's funny, every western city has a "Chinatown" where Chinese live in prominent ethnic separation. Chinese have lived in Indonesia for 500 years but they still speak Chinese. Why? because they are Chinese.

BOAZ_David says that Australia is "still statistically predominantly British", which is not at all what I am talking about. I am not saying that Australia has a British "genetic" core - it did, but that does not seem important to me. What matters to me is our British cultural core, and people of any background or appearance who grow up here will tend to pick up those cultural attributes.

I am of lowland Scots extraction and have shared houses and other aspects of my life with Australians of all sorts of "genetic" backgrounds - Slovenian, Iranian, Chinese, Wiradjuri, and so on - and have found that, in general, we fell pretty much within the standard range of "Australian" values and practices. I'm glad that this standard range is a broad one, but it does lean very strongly on its British core.

I'll try again can anyone show me the genes that pass on racial attributes. If you can’t then how can you say racial differences exist that effect the behavior of the racial group. It’s clear that most of the posters don’t know they history very well. Southern Europe was populated by Slavic people and the north was populated by Caucasians from you guest it the middle east so if race does exist then mostly of us share the same “racial genes as the Lebanese. The genetic mutation that causes white people to be white was selected in northern Europe around the Baltic region as a result of people moving to a agricultural existence therefore requiring much more Vitamin D production then black skin allows. In Northern Asiatic peoples this mutation did occur and that is why have a darker skin then Europeans but none the less have selected lighter skinned peoples.

David Boaz- "Scooper.. what drugs r u on ? "most if not all gang rapes committed by non muslims" ? get real mate, and read the available information"

That was a typing error by myself and for that I apoologise,I had only two hours sleep the previous night, and also was not aware that Bilal Skaf was a muslim.

For the record according to the Bureau of Crime Stats, quoted during the time of the gang rapes, rape in the western sydney area has remained at a stable level. In fact there were more rapes in Northern NSW where there are in fact less 'muslims' and people of Arabic descent.

Redneck sounds like he gets most of his information out of the Daily Telegraph and SMH, which inflated the number of gang rapes. The whole moral panic is critiqued in a book titled Bin Laden in the Suburbs: Criminalising the Arab other by Scott Poynting et al.

As for ethnic descriptors- they are rather confusing at best. To describe someone as of being middle eastern appearance assumes that this group have some ethnic homogeniety when in fact they of course do not. The similar thing applies to suggesting that all Arabs are muslims, when they are not. See Collins, J et al 'Kebabs, Kids, Cops and Crime', for more detail.

Its a stretch to suggest there are 'muslim rape gangs' going around in western sydney. Most people on here would agree that anything written in something such as the Daily Telgraph has to be taken with caution, considering the tabloid nature of the paper. You need more evidence than what appears in a newspaper to actually prove your point

I think a brilliant - if tragic - example of the stupidity of racism is the poor Brazilian bastard who was murdered by British cops because they thought he was of "Middle Eastern" appearance.

I also think Ian's comment above is pretty well on the mark. Australia's social heritage is of course predominantly Anglo-European, and has much that we should consciously preserve. However, it's also changing - and will become increasingly heterogeneous and cosmopolitan in the coming century.

It'd be much more productive to celebrate and accommodate this inevitability, wouldn't it - rather than bemoan the passing of a largely imaginary historical 'White Australia'. Australia is a much more interesting place these days than when I was a boy.

Easy, Kenny.

This might be a bit deep for you, but when a black man and black woman procreate, it almost always results in a black baby. If you are white and if your wife or girlfriend has recently had a black baby, then if I were you, I would check to see if the milkman was black.

I have read Ms Pringles articel again; and again I found no reference to rascisim; merely a description of a social construct 'deeply rooted in Australia". It was a fairly simple historical picture placing Frasers hysteria and that of others in sharp relief

So it beats me how some of the more rabid posters can turn a reasoned comment into a platform for throwing wacky allegations about the sexual proclivities of muslims around - unless of course you subscribe to the theory that there are many out there who live their sexual lives vicariously through the expolits, violent or otherwise of others - now there you have an outrageous claim.

I have also failed to find any sneering in her piece at any assumption Australia was crime free; some have asserted it was though. But thats a bit tough to swallow; go to the Melbourne Jail cell after cell is full of biographies of Anglos convicted of the most hienious of crimes; we were founded on criminal stock - we had a currency based on booze for gods sake. But I am relaxed about all of that. I am also relaxed about crime but thats another discussion.

The telling pointin this thread is that a simple descriptive piece holding up before our eyes the simple truth of the truly hetero- ethnicity of or nation scares the bejesus out of some here - and that gives me cause to chuckle. And I might even chortle and in my more daring moments I might give rise to a guffaw.

A cursory examination of the posts suggests the most violent responses to articles are in response to those about sex, race, religion and crime - is there some thing weird about that?

Crime. Sure I can understand that. A lot of us are a bit nervy on that fornt ( not me though ) - but sex race and religion? I suggest those really concerned about what others do or are on those fronts get a hobby; base jumping or swimming with crocodiles comes to mind

Redneck said "Easy, Kenny.

This might be a bit deep for you, but when a black man and black woman procreate, it almost always results in a black baby. If you are white and if your wife or girlfriend has recently had a black baby, then if I were you, I would check to see if the milkman was black. "

You must not have read my post and seem to have little understanding of genetics. The white skin typical of northern Europeans is caused by a small genetic mutation. This happens to be a dominate gene however there still is a recessive gene within the northern European population that does cause skin pigmentation. However this is quite light for the same reasons the other high latitude populations are. The point of the post was to indicate that while genetic studies of populations has shown this major trait of northern Europeans came about and is now well understood. It has not found any behavior traits as you contend are related to “race”. Can you provide any actual evidence to the contrary ?

Populations that remain in isolation for long enough will adapt physically to their environment, so I see no reason why they could not also adapt psychologically or in other ways at the same time.

I don't see that possibility as anything to be scared about, nor do I see myself as racist for refusing to rule it out, but I have also seen no convincing evidence of it actually happening. Cultural differences seem far more significant than physical ones to me.

This one is for Redneck:

" The media and political attention paid to ethnicity in Skaf's crime obscures the reality that gang rape is common across cultures. For example, manager of the NSW Rape Crisis Centre, Karen Willis explains that women 'are being gang raped most weekends in Australia' (Baird 2004)and that it is not a problem confined to indivdual cultures (in Duff 2002) (Gleeson, Kate. 'From the Centenary to the Olympics, Gang Rape in Sydney in Vol 16 No 2 Current Issues in Criminal Justice)

Interesting enough also taken from the NSW Bureau of Crime Statistics are the NSW recorded crime stats from Jan 04 to Dec 04, and in this case looking at the number of reported sexual assaults in LGA's. They are ranked 1-50, and noticeably it appears to be areas where most 'Arab Australians' and 'Muslim Australians do not live'.

http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/lawlink/bocsar/ll_bocsar.nsf/pages/bocsar_lgaranks_sexualassault04

So where Redneck is your evidence of 'Muslim hate rape gangs in Sydney then?

Helen,
Great article. I've just returned from Cooktown and everything you say here is well accepted history amougst those who know this early history through both written and oral accounts.

Benedict Anderson's book 'Imagined communities'is worth quoting here.
Anderson contends that " "In an anthropological spirit, then, I propose the following definition of the nation: it is an imagined political community - - and imagined as both inherently limited and sovereign"
http://www.nationalismproject.org/what/anderson.htm

Imaginations past and present of its origins being white, egalitarian and homogenous are threatened by the real pictures of history.

scooper9, The accepted convention here on the forum is that redneck is exempt from providing evidence or proof of any allegation he makes about those who are ethnically different from his pure geneological being. If he imagines it to be, then so it is. Just ask him.

Helen, thank you for the article:

There are a few tangible pointers that show that Australia doesn't have as rich a multicultural background as some would want us to have. I would even dispute that we have a multicultural society.

Firstly, our law, both common law and statute law, is based firmly on the English model. Prosecutions are conducted in the name of the Crown or of the Queen. We use juries, which are mainly a British common law development. We do not have multicultural laws, Shariah law holds no sway, neither does canon law of the Christian churches.

The business of government is conducted in English, even in areas with high migrant populations parking signs are posted in English. Monogamous marriages are the only form of marriage that can be enterred into by law in Australia.

Our treatment of animals is also firmly based on British precedent.

Multiculturalism is more than clothes, food, dance and film. It is acceptance of the major differences. Australia has been a multi-'racial' (in as much as 'race' can be defined) place, but multi-racial and multicultural are two different things.

And by the way, regarding the 'rape gangs'of a couple of years ago. The group which included Skaf in its membership was largely Lebanese. But the other notorious group, or in fact a family operation, at the time was Pushtun (Pakistani), of Islamic background, but also had a Nepalese member.

Hamlet says:"Multiculturalism is more than clothes, food, dance and film. It is acceptance of the major differences. Australia has been a multi-'racial' (in as much as 'race' can be defined) place, but multi-racial and multicultural are two different things."

Indeed. The way we use the term "multicultural" is really quite misleading. Australia's vast ethnic diversity exists within a single agreed common culture, firmly based on a British core. Being part of this common culture has nothing whatever to do with the genetic differences some people choose to call "race".

The things often described as our "multicultural" differences – foods, private religious beliefs, sports, languages used in the family, and so on – are precisely those factors that do not cause conflict provided the agreed common culture, its values and its legal framework are adhered to.

Acceptance of diversity on that level is simply part of our mainstream, British-based culture.

For those who are all a-lather about supposed the supposed invention in Australian culture of gang rapes by groups of young Muslim men, I offer the following:

* Anita Cobby
* Janine Balding
* Leigh Leigh
* The infamous Ingham (Qld) gang rapes of the 1970s
* The Bulldogs (well all of them except a certain Hazem El Masri)
* Etc etc etc

But lastly

* I suppose the gang rape by military personnel in Wagga Wagga reported on this morning's news must have been perpetrated by one of the Muslim platoons?

I can't believe some of the garbage I read in these forums.

About the crime etc.
I've always thought that religion tends to just bring out whats on the inside in people. Good people will use their religion to motivate themselves to do good things. For example, help and feed the poor. Bad people will find loopholes in their religion to justify their behaviour. (I know "good" and "bad" are very black and white terms, but they are for a simplistic explanation).

About multi-culturism.
From my experiences, I've always thought that we should encourage intergration rather than multi-culturalism. People want to immigrate here because of our attractive values and attitudes (Although John Howard wants to get rid of them at the moment with these 'anti-terrorism laws', but thats another matter). Race and Culture should be irrelevant, what should be relevant is whether people have a values framework which supports democracy, tolerance, free speech and respect of others. I know plenty of Aussie-Chinese and ABCs(australian born chinese) who are some of my best friends, and as aussie as you and me. I know others who, as others have been saying, have no interest in our culture. This should all be taken care of at the immigration application point.

I think this would keep wat is good and unique about Australia, as well as allowing that diversity and variety in which keeps our culture interesting and progressive.

Hullo, Scooper9. I thought you said that you were not going to talk to me anymore?

The information that 70 Australian girls were gang raped by Muslim race hate rape packs was obtained from Australia’s national newspaper, (The Australian), and Sydney’s two local newspapers, the right leaning "Daily Telegraph" and the left leaning "Sydney Morning Herald." Would you like me to give to the dates?

If 70 Muslim girls were gang raped by Anglo Saxon men, and if those rapes were ongoing to this day, you and Mahatma Sitting Duck would be claiming that this is proof positive of how racist Australians are. But when the race hate rapes occur the other way, you fall all over yourself trying to find an angle to deny the obvious.

You claimed that there were more rapes on the NSW North Coast than in Muslim areas. Uh huh. The nightclubs where girls are routinely getting their drinks allegedly spiked by Muslims like Adel Samadi and Chebil Djait are not noted for being in Muslim areas. But thank you for admitting how Australia’s suburbs are becoming racially segregated. Now, let’s look at the North Coast of NSW. Is there not large aboriginal communities on NSW’s North Coast? And are we all not confronted about stories of children getting raped in aboriginal communities? Are not these rapes so bad, that aboriginal children as young as six are now being screened for sexually transmitted diseases? But you kinda forgot to mention that, right?

And guess what? Driving home from work yesterday afternoon and listening to 2CH on the radio, came the news of another gang rape of a 17 year old girl involving “five brothers”. Police asked the magistrate to deny bail because they feared the five would “flee the country.” You can not join the dots but most Sydneysiders can.

Redneck- you made the point that there are 'muslim hate rape gangs' in Sydney, with the express implication that Muslims seem to be responsible for a whole lot more rapes, gang or otherwise than Anglo Australians. I responded with a report from BOSCAR which states that areas of Western Sydney compared to other parts of the state rank lower for rape than others, and somehow we now move onto talking about Aboriginals. So keeping those stats in mind where are these 'muslim hate rape gangs' you speak of?

As for your figure of 70 gang rapes- Kate Gleeson writing in the same article I left for you before writes "the figure of 70 gang rapes is alarming. But it seems to relate to a police statistic concerning 70 sexual offences in Bankstown that was later clarified by the NSW Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research. In August 2001, the Bureau released a media brief that clarified the figure of 70 sexual offences investigated in Bankstown for the month of June 1999. The media brief stated that 70 instances of sexual offences were reported to Bankstown police in June 1999 and that 'these offences were not committed by a gang..they were mainly committed by a single indivdual who has since been charged...".

No one denies the existence of rape Redneck, and how terrifying it is. However as I have demonstrated with reference to evidence that 'gang rape' is not culturally specific and that your notion of 'muslim hate rape gangs' is a mere fallacy

Good one, scooper9. But one of the problems I've noticed in these forums is that some of the most strongly opinionated and vociferous participants in these 'debates' simply ignore reliable and verifiable data in favour of any factoid they can glean from populist media or the Internet (or even worse, some sacred text or another), that suits whichever loopy agenda they're trying to push.

Personally, I try to ensure that anything I write here has a strong basis in reasonably current academic and scientific sources, in addition to what I pick up like anybody else in the media and by active participation in society. It would be really great if more people learnt how to acquire knowledge by being a little more discriminating about their secondary sources like the media, and a little less discriminating about primary sources, like the actual people about whom they have these extreme opinions.

Go out and meet them. The biggest problem we have is ignorance, not only about reliable information, but also about each other. I've spent a lot of time over the years in very diverse cultural situations - in Australia, Asia, and the Pacific - and these have only enriched my life and perspective.

Many of the views that are expressed here infer a paucity of actual experience of other cultures and people, that apparently leaves too many people open to the kind of xenophobic moral panic that we are apparently experiencing.

One of the greatest problems that we have in our society and something that is obvious here is the reliance on the media for sources of information. The most obvious ones of these can be often seen in simply reading coverage of news stories in different papers- one paper says this happened, the other says a different thing. Little do people realise how mediated their lives actually are one suspects, but at the same time not everyone has the time or desire to research and check out what they are exactly reading.

Redneck's belief in the 70 gang rape figure is an perfect example of this. From this, and the moral panic that enveloped the mass media in response to the gang rapes and the racial slant put on the story its little wonder we have people such as Redneck coming up with his claims of 'muslim hate rape gangs'. Whilst it is naive to suggest that the media are merely 'racist', one has to look at the coverage of events such as the murder/rape of Janine Balding, the murder/rape of Anita Cobby and the recent Trinity Grammar School boarding school incident, of which whilst there was outrage, there was not as nearly the level of outrage in the cases of the gang rapists.

Finally, rape and gang rape should rightly be condemened. However our consumption of the media during such events must be taken with a grain of salt at all times

We tend to also only read in the media what we want to read, that is if we want to believe that all rapists are Islamic, then that is what we will think that we are reading in the media.

That is why sometimes we have to go beyond the media, maybe go to some basic and easily available primary sources. I would like to ask how many people bothered to read the Court of Criminal Appeal judgements on the resentencing of the members of the group of which Bilal Skaf was a member? They are all there - just take a look through the NSW Lawlink website. On the same site anyone can look at the remarks on sentencing made by the Honourable Mr Justice Sully when he passed sentence on the Pakistani brothers.

You can also look through a veritable catalogue of crimes, and their results, on the victims, on society and on those found guilty of these crimes.

Crime is by and large multiethnic. There are very few ethnic groups not represented in gaol. No group is better, or worse than any other. But it would also be a mistake to brand any one group as more prone to commiting crime than other.

Under the current immigration guidelines I would suggest "totally" is perhaps more appropriate than "deeply".
At the front door (metaphorically) people should be made aware of the lifestyles and values we accept here, that make this sunburnt country so great.
Then one simple question...do you want to be part of it?
if the answer is yes, welcome.
Unfortunately, nobody likes that idea.
So I guess I'll have a big bowl of baba ganoush then give the dog a hard time...

Dear all seeing omnipotent voice of reason,

at least one person likes your idea of making the acceptance of our values a fundamental criterion of a 'colourblind' immigration system.

You can add my name to your list, if you wish to start one.

IAN on your point about 'British Culture' as opposed to a British genetic core.. yes, I take your point there, and its closer to my own intended meaning.

DUCK.. u listed err.. like 3 individuals and a reference to a footy team, and this is supposed to show that the 70 mentioned by Redneck do not show a preponderance of gang rapes by Islamic groups in the context of the period referred to ? not exactly convincing if you were trying to make a 'numbers' based defence of the activity of Muslim male rape gangs.

Still, I don't see much value in seeking to attribute rapes generally to "Muslim males". I think the figures are probably skewed by the large numbers of rapes committeed by a small number of gangs of Islamic connection. Most of what has been said on this is gleaned from the media, and its not exactly 'tight' in an evidentary way.

Scooper. I read that Bilal Skaff is actually Pakistani.

ColorBlind Immigration ?

yep, I don't really have any problem with that. But I would bring out the blinkers on the issues of social, cultural and political compatability.

On Racial/genetic differences and pre-disposition to crime.

This is a bit woolly. Not something which would be dealt with without definitions of terms (what 'is' crime) and close scrutiny of many issues. I think the outcome of a serious study would reveal that most of us possess the inner characteristics which would manifest in similar ways if enough pressure and difference of environment were thrust upon us

I just love that title helen, white false memory - cracks me up.

and sneekeepete, your view on who's unaustralian is absolutely correct.

as for the chinese immigrants, as identified by helen, obviously there many many more of the same ilke and some of them even married into aboriginal families. the most notable aboriginal chinese i think is the former NT politician, John Ah Kit. On a visit to Hong Kong for state business he identified himself as having chinese heritage this is what he says about it-

"The response of my Chinese hosts was extraordinary - and completely unexpected. They informed me that, because my grandfather had come from Hong Kong and the province around Canton, I had residency rights and could return to the land of my ancestors if I wanted. In other words, I had a form of land rights! I'll be buggered, I thought. I'd spent, by that stage, 15 years fighting against big odds to defend land rights in the NT and elsewhere in Australia, and here are my chinese cousins suggesting it wasnt too much trouble to organise, afer all".

The westminster system serves its purpose but those old white australia notions do not. If anything those old notions are only good for maintaining igorance and racism.

Australia was built on the blood, sweat and tears of many many migrant people and those british ancestors of some benefitted more from those efforts than themselves. but it was alright when it was all white in control, and now the tables are turning. and its hard to let go.

Ignorance is a major problem in australia.

I just love that title helen, white false memory - cracks me up.

and sneekeepete, your view on who's unaustralian is absolutely correct.

as for the chinese immigrants, as identified by helen, obviously there are many many more of the same ilke and some of them even married into aboriginal families. the most notable aboriginal chinese i think is the former NT politician, John Ah Kit. On a visit to Hong Kong for state business he identified himself as having chinese heritage, this is what he says about it-

"The response of my Chinese hosts was extraordinary - and completely unexpected. They informed me that, because my grandfather had come from Hong Kong and the province around Canton, I had residency rights and could return to the land of my ancestors if I wanted. In other words, I had a form of land rights! I'll be buggered, I thought. I'd spent, by that stage, 15 years fighting against big odds to defend land rights in the NT and elsewhere in Australia, and here are my chinese cousins suggesting it wasnt too much trouble to organise, afer all".

The westminster system serves its purpose but those old white australia notions do not. If anything those old notions are only good for maintaining igorance and racism.

Australia was built on the blood, sweat and tears of many many migrant people and those british ancestors of some benefitted more from those efforts than themselves. but it was alright when it was all white in control, and now the tables are turning. and its hard to let go.

Ignorance is a major problem in australia.

Hullo. Scooper9 and Mahatma Sitting Duck are now a tag team. No wuckers. Their efforts are so feeble I can easily handle both at once.

“Rape is not culture specific” Scooper? Well, some researchers from the Federal Australian Institute of Criminology disagree with you. Here is an excerpt from their book “Sexual violence in Australia”, page 14.

“Aboriginal women were 10.7 times more likely to be the victims of violent crime than non aboriginal women. It is likely, therefore, that rates of sexual violence against indigenous women are disproportionately high, when compared to non indigenous women.”

Now Scooper, go and write 100 times “I was WRONG and Redneck was RIGHT.”

Oh, and thank you, for your information that there were an incredible 70 sexual assault cases in the Lebanese Muslim ghetto of Bankstown in only one month. And you see no significance in that? Could you tell us what the rate of sexual assault in Hornsby was in the same month?

Just for the record, Scooper, the girls were not only raped, many of them were spat upon and urinated upon while being called "Aussie sluts!" and "Aussie pigs!" And as the ongoing trials prove, Bilal Skaf and his merry men were not the only ones doing it. Even Justice Finnane in his summing up at the trial of the Skaf "crew" acknowledged that these rapes were plainly race hate crimes.

Next Mahatma Sitting Duck moans that I do not use reliable official data to formulate my opinions, and that I only rely on the media. Well, ya see Ducky, in 1993, the assorted ethnic organisations who were terrified of the very high rates of criminal behaviour exhibited by their fellow nationals, they successfully lobbied the federal Government to prevent the ABS from examining or even keeping statistics on ethnic related crime. I am certain that you would applaud that sentiment because you too are frightened of the implications.

Since the true and damning statistics are being hidden by vested interests from the scrutiny of the public, the only resort left to people digging for the truth is the media.

Redneck- firstly I would appreciate that if you wish to paraphrase me that you do it correctly. I stated in an earlier thread:

" The media and political attention paid to ethnicity in Skaf's crime obscures the reality that gang rape is common across cultures. For example, manager of the NSW Rape Crisis Centre, Karen Willis explains that women 'are being gang raped most weekends in Australia' (Baird 2004) and that it is not a problem confined to individual cultures (in Duff 2002) (Gleeson, Kate. 'From the Centenary to the Olympics, Gang Rape in Sydney in Vol 16 No 2 Current Issues in Criminal Justice)

You seem to believe that gang rape is linked only to Muslims, and your ‘Muslims hate rape gangs’, which as is plainly obvious it is not. Not to forget your reference to the 70 sexual assaults in one month- most of which were committed by an individual.

Thanks for doing some research- did you pick up the following from page 15:

41 per cent of rapists were Aboriginal, 42 per cent were white and 17 per
cent were Aboriginal and white rapists acting together.

Either way you missed the point. Based on the fact that the media ignored the clarification of the 70 assaults, it is likely the offender was in fact white, and of course not to forget not a gang rapist, unlike your belief in the Muslim hate rape gangs. Finally:

“There is a grain- and only a grain- of truth in the widely repeated claims that the gang rapes in question appeared to be racially motivated. It was reportedly asserted by one of the victims that the perpetrators made racial remarks and insults while the young women were held captive and sexually assaulted”. (Poynting, S et al. 125. 2004) Furthermore out of the 7 victims of the rapes most were described as Caucasian, or Australian only 4 girls were in fact of Anglo descent- the rest were Italian or Greek descent. In addition to this one of the victims had Aboriginal parentage

Don't worry too much, Scooper. Our rednecked friend has established, beyond any reasonable doubt, that his opinions are based on quite disgusting prejudice. He simply cherrypicks factoids that suit his literally hateful agenda.

About the best thing I could suggest for him is that he acquires for himself a better education than he has had thus far. Redneck: you clearly have an active and enquiring mind - give yourself a break and get an education.

Despite the naysayers, we actually do education quite well in global terms :)

Mahatma Duck
Could you please make some points to the arguement, rather than just ragging redneck?

You are repeating the fiction now being offered by the politically exquisite that the 70 Australian girls raped by Muslim race hate rape packs around the time of the Olympics was simply a media beat up of some everyday problem.

The ongoing attacks by men of “Middle Eastern Appearance” and the rape trials of men who are quite plainly Muslims, has become a monthly event in Sydney. The problem of gang rape in the “troubled” Muslim South West of Sydney was so bad that on August 12th, 2001, Sydney police began issuing warnings to Bankstown local schools and to women in this area to not walk near the curb to minimise the chance that they too might get pulled into a car and gang raped. If gang rape is such an everyday event in NSW, then why did the NSW Police limit their actions to this one area?

Last month one Muslim man who’s son is accused of rape has admitted in court that he tried to hire a “hitman” to murder his son’s accuser. The “hitman” was an undercover NSW police officer who taped the offender asking the “hitman” to kill the girl “slowly.” While such behaviour appears utterly reprehensible to Australians, it can be considered “honourable” behaviour in Muslim societies where men hold the view that if a woman gets raped it is her own fault.

One serious race hate gang rape was heard before Judge Megan Latham who claimed that there “was no racial element in the attack.” The outraged victim called a press conference and told the assembled media that she was told repeatedly during her 5 hour ordeal that she was being raped “because she was an Australian and deserved it.” She told the media that her official police statement had been doctored to remove any hint of racial taunts before it was submitted to the court. Plainly, Scooper9, there are people in the legal system who think just like you and they will go to any length to hide the truth.

Redneck- time and time again you provide your opinion's without any backup and this is no exception.

BOSCAR clarified the 70 sexual assault figure as not relating to gang rapes as previously quoted- if you wish to read something altogether untrue into it, so be it. I have simply stated all along that there is little evidence of something homogenous group of gang rapists in Sydney as you seem to believe.

If you really wish to be incredibly pedantic why don't you explain why the media were less and less concerned over the horrific rape of boarders at Trinity Grammar School, why don't you explain why there was no controversy over the charge bargaining procees used in that case, when it was so criticsed in the Bilal Skaf rapes?

In the end it comes down to a lot more than perhaps you understand Redneck. No one doubts the crimes were horrific, but they question the ways in which the media framed the racial discourses in ways in which stretched beyond reality- and in the end it is the media that has provided most, if not all your information about the rapists. Reading some texts other than the Telegraph and SMH would help you a lot more.

I have no idea who “BOSCAR” is and I presume that it is just another politically correct organisation staffed by homosexuals who despise their own country and who will stop at nothing to hide the truth. It is obvious to me that your own arguments are simply regurgitated extracts from the usual western hating pseudo intellectuals who’s scribbling only impress the already converted.

Most of my information comes from everyday newspaper reports which I cut out and keep in a database. But I have taken the trouble to obtain material from the ABS, the Australian Institute of Criminology, and the NSW Bureau of Crime Statistics which I cross reference with the newspaper articles. You are just squealing because I am doing you like a dinner.

I fully appreciate the fact that all cultures experience rape and gang rape. But what I am proving is that the unacceptably high incidences of gang rape behaviour in this country by men of Muslim culture is a product of their own cultural values, which stress that women must behave and dress in certain ways or they deserve to be raped. And if they are raped it is entirely their own fault.

This calls into question why we are bringing such dangerous and backward people into this country when they are plainly a threat to our wives and daughters.

The undeniable fact that we are witnessing a culturally conditioned pattern of rape behaviour by men of the Muslim faith can be seen in other Western countries. In Denmark, the Danish Minister of Justice announced on 8th March, 2002, that 76.5% of those convicted of rape in Copenhagen were of non Danish ethnic background representing a ten fold disparity. Journalist Lars Hedergaard wrote in the New York Post ( 27/8/2002) that the majority of convicted rapists in Denmark were Muslim men even though Muslims made up only 4% of the Danish population. This cross connects with information from NSW Sergent Tim Priests article in The Australian newspaper that 50% of the French prison population is Muslim, even though Muslims are only 5% of the French population.

Justin, I have made several posts that pertain directly to the article under discussion in the thread above. I object to the eponymous redneck's repetitive use of a false 'statistic' concerning supposed gang rapes in order to pursue his racist agenda. The figure of "70 gang rapes by Muslims" was convincingly discredited by Scooper above, by reference to NSW Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research (BOCSAR). To reiterate:

"In August 2001, the Bureau released a media brief that clarified the figure of 70 sexual offences investigated in Bankstown for the month of June 1999. The media brief stated that 70 instances of sexual offences were reported to Bankstown police in June 1999 and that 'these offences were not committed by a gang..they were mainly committed by a single indivdual who has since been charged...' "

In redneck's obsessive cutting, pasting and cross-referencing, he has either missed that point, or (more likely) he is simply ignoring it because it doesn't suit his execrable 'argument'.

From my experience I have a daughter who in her 20s frequented Sydney Night Clubs with her girlfriends. While the Ozzie boys were getting sloshed out of their brain, my daughter and her girlfriends were having intelligent conversations with Lebanese Muslim young men who were buying them drinks. They soon learned that these young men were spiking their drinks for the purpose of sex. These girls soon learned to avoid them like the plague, otherwise you would end up raped and abandoned on the street somewhere. These supposedly nice young men did not imbibe drugs or alcohol because it was against their religion.

Dear Messrs Neck and Philo,

I refer to your letters posted to OLO from 3 October 2005 to 9 October 2005.

I wish to advise that several positions have become available in the The Great White Australian Public Service. In reference to your highly researched posts, the Service considers it would greatly benefit from your combined talents.

Please send your applications to Media Liaison Unit, Ministry of Spin-Doctering, GPO Box 666BS, Sydney 2000

To Scooper9 and Mahatma Sitting Duck.

The newspaper reports and the subsequent electronic media coverage was about 70 RAPES which occured at or around the time of the Sydney Olympics. They were not about 70 sexual assaults (which may simply include inappropriate touching) in the Bankstown jurisdiction which may have occured during any one month.

Your assertions that one offender was responsible for all 70 sexual assaults (or rapes) in one month is more worthy of mirth than serious consideration. Are you being serious or are you pair just delerious?

Thank you, thank you, for helping to destroy your own fragile credibility with any impartial reader who may be perusing these articles.

Redneck-

How can you explain higher rape stats in areas of less Arabic and Muslim prescence as is indicated by BOSCAR which happens to be the Bureau of Crime Stats NSW.

Again you miss the point- that quote comes from an academic publication as referenced. It is not something which came from my mouth, unlike most of your statements

The NSW Bureau of Crime Statistics is not to be believed, according to the self-styled redneck, because it is

"...just another politically correct organisation staffed by homosexuals who despise their own country and who will stop at nothing to hide the truth".

Unlike, of course, wildly heterosexual shock jocks like Alan Jones!

"I fully appreciate the fact that all cultures experience rape and gang rape. But what I am proving is that the unacceptably high incidences of gang rape behaviour in this country by men of Muslim culture is a product of their own cultural values, which stress that women must behave and dress in certain ways or they deserve to be raped. And if they are raped it is entirely their own fault.

This calls into question why we are bringing such dangerous and backward people into this country when they are plainly a threat to our wives and daughters"

For starters Redneck most of them were born here, educated here. Again you resort to glittering generalalities. - its akin to Reverend Lovejoy's cry in 'The Simpsons', 'Won't someone please think of the children'.

You haven't proved anything Redneck, except your ability to gloat. The fact is crime stats simply do not support your claim for high incidences of gang rape by Muslim or Arabic Australians, and for that matter neither does any other empirical evidence apart from the tabloids.

The facts are as simple- sexual assaults are higher in other parts of NSW where there is less Muslim and Arabic Australians, so how do you explain that in light of your claims? To take a leaf out of your book, I saw the Wallabies Doctor's son being charged with gang rape- so now there must be a Caucasian hate rape gang in Sydney, which we don't hear about because of the PC media and government officals- quick we better hide our wives and daughters now!

Aw shucks, Scooper. You asked a very interesting question when you asked me to explain why some areas of NSW have higher incidences of sexual assault than “Muslim” areas. I wrote about 1000 words in reply, and was prepared to post them in instalments. But now you go and post another sneery article which I feel that I should also respond too.

Yes, the Muslim race hate gang rapists were “born here” and it is obvious by their own behaviour that they hate Australians. These men do not consider themselves “Australians” any more than the suicide bombers in London considered themselves “British.” And that is the problem. We are bringing unassimilatable people from hostile cultures into this country and then act amazed when they turn on us.

Could I remind you that the 70 girls who were gang raped were not only raped, they were spat upon and urinated upon while being called “Aussie sluts” and “Aussie pigs”. One girl was told repeatedly that she was being raped “because she is Australian and deserves it.” . Could I quote firebrand Cleric Abu Yayha who claimed that “Our loyalty is to Allah and his prophet, not to Queen and country. Nationality means nothing.”

I thought that Australia had an Army and a Navy to keep dangerous foreigners like this who’s loyalty is entirely to their God and their ethnic tribal homelands right out of the place.

Even Justice Finnane’s summation stressed the race hate aspect of the Bilal rape gang’s actions. “…by asking some of their victims if the liked it “Leb style and words to that effect, suggesting that in some way that they are a part of a separate group that is not really a part of this community…… they are wreaking revenge on the other group, the Australian group.”

Do you get your humanitarian ideals from watching children's cartoon shows? No wonder you are so easy to beat.

I am the author of this article. Thank you to everyone for your comments, but imho there are a few misperceptions. I don't think my perspective is that of a "trendy leftie", I simply think it is important to live one's life with dignity and to respect the dignity of each person.

I do not think, nor do I say or imply in this article, that the only racists in the world are white people or that all Chinese are paragons of virtue. The article does not "sneer" at anyone, rather it is (as sneekeepete rightly notes) a very simple piece, thinking over who we are and who we were. [As an aside: as a person of part Scots descent, and with some knowledge of the history of Scotland, I would caution against assuming that there is a homogeneous "British" culture (or language or law...) underlying Australian identity.]

I do not think readers of this forum are stupid or dumb, as BOAZ asserts, and I say explicitly in the article that the gentle love of Mr and Mrs Chick Tong did not represent the dominant pattern of relationships between people of different races or cultures. Theirs is a picture of what is possible and of what was sometimes attained.

Andrew Fraser asserts the genetic basis of identity, whereas most of the comments here concern the alleged (cultural) propensity of Muslims to rape, so a little off-topic (ie I would prefer to deal with that question at more length elsewhere). But what does dismay me is the tendency in some of the posts to portray sexual assault not as an injury to its target, but as an injury to men via "our wives and daughters". This tendency is emphasised by the distressingly rough and brutal tone of some posts. For example, a recent post notes, "You are just squealing beause I am doing you like a dinner." This is not the language of civility, and is worlds removed from the gentle conversation implied in the photograph of Mr and Mrs Chick Tong.

Redneck- The only answer to my query was the following statement:

“You claimed that there were more rapes on the NSW North Coast than in Muslim areas. Uh huh. The nightclubs where girls are routinely getting their drinks allegedly spiked by Muslims like Adel Samadi and Chebil Djait are not noted for being in Muslim areas. But thank you for admitting how Australia’s suburbs are becoming racially segregated. Now, let’s look at the North Coast of NSW. Is there not large Aboriginal communities on NSW’s North Coast? And are we all not confronted about stories of children getting raped in aboriginal communities? Are not these rapes so bad, that aboriginal children as young as six are now being screened for sexually transmitted diseases? But you kinda forgot to mention that, right?”

So the only answer to my question transformed into a debate about Aboriginal crime, which for most people has very little to do with your attempts to show there are “Muslim hate rape gangs’ in Sydney. The only thing I have seen from you from the AIC was one report, and you didn’t even know what BOSCAR ways despite claiming to have referenced from there. Then you turn to your reminder of the accusations of the ‘Aussie sluts’ etc, which has little to do with proving your assertion that there are ‘Muslim hate rape gangs’ operating in Sydney, neither is the comment about Justice Finnane.

So your claim:

“I fully appreciate the fact that all cultures experience rape and gang rape. But what I am proving is that the unacceptably high incidences of gang rape behaviour in this country by men of Muslim culture is a product of their own cultural values, which stress that women must behave and dress in certain ways or they deserve to be raped. And if they are raped it is entirely their own fault”

is not supported by the fact that rape is generally higher in “predominantly white rural areas”- so to borrow the words of one your likely heroes- please explain?

http://www.thepaper.org.au/issues/019/019gang_rape_ruled_to_be_free_from_racism.html

http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/lawlink/bocsar/ll_bocsar.nsf/pages/bocsar_lgaranks_sexualassault04

You can stop gloating- you’ve got nothing

Author again. You can view the photo of Mr and Mrs Chick Tong at this wonderful archive (you might need to copy & paste the url):

http://enc.slq.qld.gov.au/slq/neg/preview/150000/150952p.jpg

Claiming that the NSW country town of Coolamon has a rape problem because it has the highest rate of “sexual assault” in the State is a half truth. And a half truth told as a full truth is a complete lie.

Every person capable of reading this topic (excluding Kenny) has the wit to understand that large generalizations can not be accurately made from a small statistical base. The rate of “sexual assault” (which could mean pinching a girl’s bum) has been given in terms of rate per 100,000, and that from a township of only 4000. Any annual statistical anomaly from a small sample (which may only occur in a single year) which is extrapolated upwards to a high general rate, will cause unacceptable errors.

A school in Walgatt, which is primarily aboriginal, has a year 9 class where one half of the girls are pregnant. This does not mean that the rate of juvenile female pregnancy in Walgett or in any other small country town is 50,000/100,000, or even that juvenile pregnancy in country areas is a problem at all.

Nor can it be inferred that any incidence of rape is higher in “white rural areas”. Making direct proportional comparisons with a township of 4000 people to an area the size of Southwest Sydney, which may contain 400,000 people is a bit rich. Especially if the ethnicity of the offenders and the victims is unknown. If small country towns have a problem with sexual assault, it would be reasonable to assume that all small country towns would have that problem. The fact that only 50 of hundreds of NSW country towns are even mentioned, indicates that these “sexual assaults” may even have been rare, one off events by single individuals.

This is a perfect example of left whingers using spurious statistical analysis to promote their causes. Coolamon is hardly noted for any crime problem, much less gang rape. South West Sydney is most certainly notorious for it’s crime problem, especially the gang rape attacks by Muslim race hate rape packs on Australian girls.

Redneck- you are still avoiding the question. Those stats are from the NSW Bureau of Crime statistics, a site which you yourself claimed as one of your sources. So now you do not even trust your own sources now?

"I have taken the trouble to obtain material from the ABS, the Australian Institute of Criminology, and the NSW Bureau of Crime Statistics which I cross reference with the newspaper articles".

I never said there was a rape problem in that town- I merely pointed out the bleeding obvious- that sexual assault is more prevalent in predominatly rural towns in NSW, and whether it is gang rape or not does not matter. What it does suggest is that the incidence of rape in South West Sydney is no where nearly as high as you believe, and thats all it is, a belief.

Even the head of the Bureau Dr Weatherburn stated that "the rate of sexual assault was nearly twice as high in the state's Northern, and over twice as high in its North Western, Statistical division." Furtheremore he acknowledged that whilst some sexual assaults may remain unreported "there is no reason to believe that victims of sexual violent are any more reluctant to report that violence to police in Bankstown than they are in any other area of the State". (Poynting, S et al. 2004. 19)

So now you claim that these figures are spurious, despite apparently sourcing from the same website, then believe that there are muslim hate rape gangs in Sydney without any evidence, whilst discounting valid and blatantly obvious evidence that is documented. You are missing the forest for trees Redneck.

One more thing- you acknolwedged that sexaul assaults in rural NSW maybe be committed by a single indivdual- thus the same assumption could be said for sexual assault in South Western Sydney can it not?

Otherwise, apart from your newspaper clippings, do you have the figures for gang rapes in South Western Sydney? Just to clarify my previous point about south western sydney to avoid ambiguity, those figures are adjusted for population, a common practice amongst leading criminologists to the best of my knowledge.

I think Redneck you are a victim of the moral panic about gang rapes more than anything else. The media literacy of people in this nation is often much lower than what it could and perhaps should be, but having said that not everyone has the time or will to look beyond the printed page. And Redneck who exists in a maze of contradictions/ fallacies is one such victim.

Come on guys, can't you all get off the idea that multicuturalism equals rape?

Yes, there has been a lot of recent media publicity about certain sexual assault trials involving people of non Anglo-Celtic background, but is this really the sole area to which any discussion of multiculturalism boils down to?

Perhaps we should look at some other situations, like the attrocious behaviour that many of us have experienced from European, British and Canadian backpackers.

Or maybe the way that Brazilians seem to take up more personal space in public than the rest of us through their exuberance and loud talking on public transport.

Maybe we should groan about the influence of the USA through TV and movies, and how the "Australian culture" has drawn closer to the USA than Britain from the early 1900s, that is right, not from 1942, but 40 or 50 years earlier.

There are many more examples, I would even consider that the move of the South Melbourne Swans into Sydney on this temporary basis has been an attempt to foist the 'culture' of Melbourne onto Sydney. And no, I have never been to an AFL game, nor watched one on TV, the culture is too foreign for me.

The figures that are available are not for aggravated sexual assault, only for sexual assault. That is like trying to divine the rate of armed robbery by using figures which only list “theft.” The best way to figure out what is going on is to list offenders by their ethnicity and religion and make comparisons. But people like you are absolutely terrified of what that would reveal, and so these figures can not legally be kept by either the AIC or the ABS because of the political lobbying by people like you.

The original story was released by SMH police reporter John Kidman and his article claimed that NSW police were investigating 20 gang rapes and knew of 50 others from hospital admission records, but they admitted that these rapes may have been the tip of the iceberg. Strike Group Sayda was formed who’s investigations revealed an offence rate of around one race hate gang rape per month that was being committed by several loosely affiliated groups of young Muslim men.

I think, Scooper9, that you are the victim of blind ideology when you can not recognise a threat to your own people when it is staring you in the face. It has always been the sacred duty of the men of any community to defend their women from the depredations of hostile enemy tribes. Inviting those hostile tribes into your own fortress so that they may attack your women at their leisure is not a bright idea. How you can go through all kinds of mental gymnastics to deny the obvious is beyond me.

According to the book “Rising Crime in Australia”, there were a total of 9 convictions for rape or even attempted rape in the whole of Australia in 1923. Today there are around 4000 “sexual assaults” per year per state. Things appear to have been better when Australians were poorer and when we did not have women debasing pornography daily shoved in our faces. But if we continue to allow the importation of crime and welfare prone immigrant groups, then baby, you ain’t seen nothin’ yet

Your last post seems to be directed at me Helen Pringle. It amuses me that people with your trendy lefty mindset seem chronically unable to talk directly and feel the need to beat endlessly around the bush. Why don’t you simply address me by my name?

Personally, I don’t have much respect for the “dignity” of people who have no respect for my dignity, who's loyalties are to a foreign group, and who wish to impose their extraoridnary concepts of what is right and what is wrong behaviour on me.

As a Scottish descendent, I think that you would agree that Scottish identity is so strong that to a Scotsman (Scotsperson?) you are either a Scot, or you are not. I am amazed that you see nothing wrong with Scots defining who they regard as their kith and kin, yet you seem to think that Australians have no right to do the same. I would also point out that Chinese people are noted for their inability to assimilate. Every major, prosperous city in the world has a “Chinatown” where ethnic Chinese stubbornly maintain their particular social identity and cultural values. Have you ever thought of attacking the Chinese for this obvious racism instead of the liberal and fairly innocuous racism of your own people?

I would also point out that the gang rapes of Australian girls is most definitely not off topic on a subject devoted to multiculturalism. Importing rape and terrorism prone immigrant groups is a threat to our people.

Your article seemed to me to present Cooktown as a multicultural paradise which all Australia should emulate. I would reply that isolated, interdependent communities with abundant resources and an acceptance by minorities to abide to the rules of the dominant culture, may indeed have non existent racial tension. But to think that any society can remain peaceful or stable where the differing cultural component groups possess glaring birth rate differentials, and have diametrically opposed views on what constitutes right or wrong behaviour, is dancing with the fairies stuff.

Redneck,
We know the Skaf brothers recently had their long sentences reduced on appeal. This week we had their lawyer say it was because of their "cultural upbringing that led them to view women non-muslim as sex objects" and it was only a matter of time and the right circumstances that would vacilitate their opportunity to rape. In other words they knew no better, it was their Parkistani Muslim cultural attitude that taught them to viewed rape as normal on non-Muslim girls. Therefore their Lawyer argued they should be released from prison, because in their cultural mind it was normal. Their lawyer is agruing that racist sexual attitudes of Parkistani Muslims is normal. Case Closed!

Philo, you could at lest get your facts straight: The case in the Court of Criminal Appeal thsi week did not involve Skaf or anyone assocaited with him. It was over one of 4 Pakistani brothers who operated independently of the group of which Skaf was a member

It was argued that this particular offender, known as MSK, was, because of his Pakistani background, unable to basically differentiate right from wrong when it came to sexual assault and women. It was also claimd, by his father, that he suffered a psychiatric condition. But as a letter in the Herald yesterday stated, any man in Pakistan found guilty of the crimes that this man has been found guilty of would be facing the death penalty.

It would be worthwhile, before making too many more comments on this matter, to wait until we get a chance to read the judge's remarks on sentencing, as I understand that these four brothers will be being sentenced shortl, maybe next week, in reagrd to a later group of trails in whichthey were found guilty.

Philo, you could at lest get your facts straight: The case in the Court of Criminal Appeal thsi week did not involve Skaf or anyone associated with him. It was over one of 4 Pakistani brothers who operated independently of the group of which Skaf was a member

It was argued that this particular offender, known as MSK, was, because of his Pakistani background, unable to basically differentiate right from wrong when it came to sexual assault and women. It was also claimd, by his father, that he suffered a psychiatric condition. But as a letter in the Herald yesterday stated, any man in Pakistan found guilty of the crimes that this man has been found guilty of would be facing the death penalty.

It would be worthwhile, before making too many more comments on this matter, to wait until we get a chance to read the judge's remarks on sentencing, as I understand that these four brothers will be being sentenced shortl, maybe next week, in reagrd to a later group of trails in whichthey were found guilty.

Is Redneck aware of the fact that out of the seven victims of the Bilal Skaf gang rapes, 3 of the victims were from Greek and Italian backgrounds,whilst one of the victims had Aboriginal parentage.

Redneck- you claimed earlier to have sourced articles from the AIC, BOSCAR etc, yet the only thing I have seen came from the AIC which was a report into sexual violence, which had little or nothing to do with gang rapes in Sydney. Do you have any specific, and documented evidence in the form of a report other than a newspaper article which supports your assertion of a gang rape crisis amongst Muslim/Arab Australians in south western Sydney?

If you had in fact bothered reading anything from the AIC for example, you would have found some answers to your questions- such as why ethnicity data is not yet collected in most states, except limited stats in Victoria. I feel that the only reason you yoke crime to ethnicity, and therefore your references to muslim hate rape gangs comes from the media only. Otherwise, whether or not sexual assualts in northern NSW are aggravated or not should not matter- yet consideirng the dominant white population of these areas, you choose to read less into that, than you do of western Sydney.

Sorry if I had put together two cases of Middle Eastern Rape cases upon young non-muslim girls in Sydney. If the cultural line of the later case is to be believed then this is a case for exclusion from Australia of Pakistan Muslim men on cultural grounds.

Scooper, the reason redneck only cherrypicks BOSCAR data is that it is, in his own words

"...just another politically correct organisation staffed by homosexuals who despise their own country and who will stop at nothing to hide the truth".

Additionally, it's pretty obvious that he hasn't read (or if has, understood) the more reputable publications he cites.

Philo, we all know that lawyers are paid to present the best possible defence for their clients, often based upon the thinnest of premises. Put another way: lawyers don't have a great reputation for honesty, do they? These guys have distorted the offenders' backgrounds in the most reprehensibly irresponsible way. I trust they were paid well.

You first Hamlet. The only way that a Muslim woman can bring a rape charge against a man under Sharia Law is for her to provide four Muslim men of good character, who will testify that they watched the entire rape from start to finish. Since I presume that you have the wit to figure out that this is unlikely, you might also comprehend that Muslim men have a virtual right to rape under Islamic law.

It is also an offence for women in Pakistan to even bring a charge of rape against a Muslim man. To do so is to admit “fornication” which is a crime under Islamic Law. She is then charged with “Allowing Oneself To Get Raped”. (no kidding) 4000 Muslim women now rot in Pakistani prisons for this offence.

To Scooper Mahatma Sitting Duck.

Well, whadyaknow boys? I pick up my Daily Telegraph newspaper this morning and there on page 9, ‘Girl Raped in Reserve Attack” Yet another teenaged girl has been gang raped by four men of “Middle Eastern Appearance”, this time at Salt Pan Creek , Padstow. This is now happening every month. How many more teenaged girls have to be sacrificed upon the altar of multiculturalism before you two grow a brain, and admit that your own women are in grave danger by these people who we have foolishly allowed to invade our country?

And I see that another Muslim gang rapist now claims “cultural differences” for his rape behaviour. Of course he is right. If his culture keeps telling him that women who dress in Western clothes are just dirty sluts who deserve to be raped, and if his culture makes it impossible for him to be convicted of that offence, it is hardly surprising if Muslim men are disproportionately represented in rape crimes.

Redneck,
16 years in law enforcement and the only rapists I have dealt with were white, with the exception of one – and he was aboriginal.

Redneck- did you read about the four white guys that got off the gang rape of a young girl. Why aren't you jumping up and down over that one hey? Are there two rules of justice for Redneck- one rule for whites and the other rules for non-whites?

So you think that by reading the Telegraph, it provides evidence for Muslim hate rape gangs. You think that these 'gangs' are some homogenous group, acting in unision with each to reek mayhem and havoc across south western Sydney? I really hope you do not take what is printed in a Tabloid newspaper as being gospel, because to put it simply the Telegraph is purely that, a tabloid.

The funny thing about media coverage of minorities is often how ethnicity is exaggerated or played upon, when in fact it may have no reference. A good example was how Bilal Skaf was always classified as a Muslim or Lebanese, but never Australian despite having been born here. The irony of this, is that it seems that if you are white, you are always Aussie, but when your not white, and commit a crime or are alleged to have committed a crime you are automatically the 'other', the UnAustralian being.

Redneck -Ill ask you again- from all your so called cross referencing of newspaper articles to supposed AIC, BOSCAR reports etc, where is your evidence in any of these reports which suggest a pandemic of Muslim hate rape gangs- maybe this time instead of going into a diatribe of how you are better than all of us because you an uneducated Redneck, why don't you put your money where your mouth is for once

To Scooper.

The three men were acquitted by jury of the charge of aggravated sexual assault. The young “lady” agreed to have sex with three men, one after the other, then objected when they wanted more. I doubt if any jury would accept that getting screwed the first time is love or kicks, and the second time is rape.

The Sydney Daily Telegraph simply reports the news. What we are seeing in Sydney is gang rape after gang rape committed by young Muslim men on what looks to me a monthly basis. Bilil Skaf is not an Australian because he himself does not consider himself Australian and by his own actions proved that hates Australians. What nationality you are is not simply a product of where you were born, but whose people you identify with.

The funny thing about the gang rapes by Muslim race hate rape packs was that the information was sat on by the media for so long. The NSW Police had been releasing press reports to the media at the time of the Olympics about the prevalence of gang rapes, but it appears that no one in the media wanted to be the ones to admit that Australia was far from the multicultural utopia that the International press were presenting it as to the world. Columnist Piers Akerman claimed in his regular column that one respected SMH journo had written a column about the ethnic crime wave but his article was canned by his PC editors who do not want the public to figure out that multiculturalism is a disaster.

If there are now a lot of stories about ethnic related crime it is because there is a lot of ethnic related crime. Some ethnic groups are very disproportionately represented in violent crime and especially drug trafficking. Surely even you can not deny that.

There are no official crime statistics which indicate the degree of aggravated sexual assault by Muslims because the sundry ethnic committees have succeeded in preventing the collation or keeping of them out of sheer embarrassment.

The statistical arguments presented with migrant population are quite humorous if the consequences were not so dia.
The assumption is that the new Migrants actually work and contribute to the economy, and I do not mean the increased work by the police, Hospitals, Courts, solicitors, and other pathetic advocate groups, and when Statistics state they will need X amount to pay for aging population and expand the economy is laughable, it would be a major point to indicate most of the immigration taking place end up collecting Welfare from the big tax bowl or are State dependant in more ways than one way, ooooo yes ether one of two thing can happen now. Post modern aptitude and accounting means everyone lives in the land of milk and honey, or more likely, civil war. Is someone telling me 1+ 1 does not equal 6, gee wiz takes thirty years to figure that out.Thats the economic part, now what about the premise of historical and cultural existence, Easy, Goodbye. What are they going to do about it? Nothing, you have to do something about it, or it will go away, not the problem, YOU. And that is the legacy of leftist, run for your life or you are dead.
Statistics are garbage, what ever number you pump in you can change to make it look better on the outer. Has anyone sighted the welfare bill of late, there is only 20 million in Australia, it is disgraceful, and that is less the Elites collecting welfare
Save your effort redneck, most commentry here are not interested in learning truth, Helen Pringle will be their white Knigh to save them from the evils of reason.Ha. Back to the future.

Where we are born is your nationality, who we identify with in beliefs, practices and an attitude is our culture.

Australia is multicultural society, however some cultures do not respect or accept the equal rights of all other citizens to live together in a democratic State, so commit violent criminal acts against that culture. When attitude or behaviour views another as lesser in status in our egalitarian society they do not accept our democratic values. If one's culture is the basis of criminal behaviour against other innocent citizens then that culture does not deserve protection under our laws.

Rapes not based on cultural attitudes; example, a Muslim boy who rapes a Muslim girl stands on the same platform as any rape within a similar culture. These same culture rapes are not happening in Muslim communities, or Muslim girls do not report them. Maybe the girls neither do nor report because of fear of being classed as a lesser person in her family and community.

Years ago while working among an Australian aboriginal settlement I saw attractive young aboriginal girls raped at the consent of their community for beer and wine etc. This cross cultural rape in my opinion was equally as vile though consent was given for convenience. Convenience was the motivating factor and it could not be identified as an offence against the culture. The young girls resented their sale for sex and tried to escape, but they were finally subject to their elders. The violence that continually erupted in that community took some quelling, but the problem of rape was a moral and criminal problem. The violence of the rape was not based on the a culture of the victim.

The Telegraph simply reports the news? As if! All news organisations
choose what to print, and what aspects of a story will be
printed. The media, by and large, make prominent what they think their
audience will want to hear or read.

Redneck, I don’t know what your problem is; it would seem that you have
something personally against certain ‘ethnic’ or religious groups. The choice
of your nickname says something about you as well, it is borrowed from a
foreign culture, that is the USA, which doesn’t say much for your connection
to Australia. At least you don’t hide the fact that you are a “white person
regarded as having a provincial, conservative, often bigoted attitude.”

Australia has been, since white settlement, a multi-ethnic place. People with
origins different to Europe have contributed greatly. Relations between
all these groups have not always been harmonious. I am old enough to remember
the conflict between ‘Irish’ Catholics and ‘British’ Protestants. It was something of a
scandal that my paternal mother was catholic and grandfather was protestant
. These problems have now been worked through, and there is very little friction
between these two groups.

The difficulties are little remembered.

I have a friend of Lebanese background whose mother is Islamic and father is
Christian. I know another couple where the wife is Islamic from Turkey and the
husband is French Catholic. This is multiculturalism in action.

I also know a family of Lebanese background, a devout Islamic family, who refuse
to live anywhere near the ‘Lebanese community’ because they see themselves as
more than just a stereotype.

And it is your use of stereotypes that contributes to friction more than anything else.

And before you go on about Islamic gangs maybe you should look back upon
the crimes carried out by a group in Sydney, that included rapes, home
invasions and murders just after the Skaf and the K Brothers situation:

For more information:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Dead-end-street/2004/11/29/1101577416862.html?from=storylhs

and you will see what I mean, these crimes did not involve
anyone from the ME, and Asians as well as Europeans
as victims.

Philo wrote "Where we are born is your nationality, who we identify with in beliefs, practices and an attitude is our culture".

When I was born (in this country) I was not considered a citizen and prior to 1967 referendum me and mine were never asked if we wanted to be citizens. I was however considered a ward of the state.

Who I identify with in beliefs, practices and attitude is indeed my culture*s.

I don't consider myself to be Australian or culturally Australian.

Rainier,
You say you were born in this country but you are not a citizen. All indigenous people and legally settled residents are part of the nation of Australia. Since you claim are not Australian, then you must be an alien or an illegal resident, or you prefer to not to consider yourself a legal person on this land. You seem to have a chip on your shoulder about Australian national identity. Being Australian is being a person of that land in this culturally diverse nation. Australia is not a culture it is a land mass governed by a Federal Government. The dominant culture of Australia is Anglo-European, but that does not make them non-Australian. You may not identify with Anglo-European culture, but if you were born here and have not taken out citizenship of another country - your nationality is Australian. Grow up!

Quote, "When I was born (in this country) I was not considered a citizen and prior to 1967 referendum me and mine were never asked if we wanted to be citizens... Who I identify with in beliefs, practices and attitude is indeed my culture*s. I don't consider myself to be Australian or culturally Australian.

To Mr Hamlet.

I knew that you were going to be easy meat the moment you barged into this debate, and in a tone of self righteous indignation, based your entire argument upon a premise which is demonstrably and provably wrong.

You claimed that rape was not culturally approved of in the Islamic culture, because some mullah said that the penalty for rape is death. It was screamingly obvious that you knew nothing about Islamic law or culture, or you would not have made such an idiotic statement. So it did not take much for me to acquaint you of certain facts about Sharia Law, which you were entirely ignorant of, and bowl you out for a duck.

Your next trick is to try to cover up your appalling ignorance of this topic by adopting the Mahatma Sitting Duck School of debating technique. That is, when cornered, try to change the subject by bringing up barely related issues and throw a bunch of questions at redneck, while dodging the single question that he set for you.

Mr Hamlet, I stereotype you as a typical young trendy lefty who is so sure that the fashionable views of his peer group are beyond reproach, that he does not feel the need to do even a skerrick of homework to figure out whether these views are right or wrong. Look sunshine, you are going to have to do a lot better than that if you want to cross swords with me. Could I suggest that you start doing a bit of research on Sharia Law yourself?

If you bothered to do so, you might figure out how stupid your original statement was. And that might finally turn on your scepticism and critical analysis circuit, which means that you might begin to think straight.

You would then agree that in Islamic culture, men have a virtual license to rape.

When you finally admit that your original assumption was wrong, we can then move on and investigate the implications of this barbarian attitude.

Redneck

The topic of this particular thread is multicultural Australia.
Multicultural Australia does not have Sharia law.

It doesn't matter one hoot about Sharia law in Pakistan and Nigeria
when it comes to discussions in this thread.

If you want to debate Sharia law and use it against Moslems,
start your own thread.

In fact, it is probably a good idea, so we can discuss it specifically at lenghth.

Many people of the Islamic faith have come to Australia to escape
Sharia law. Therefore, these people show the inclusive nature of
Australian law.

You are not debating, you present assertions rather than facts.

You are so much like the Monty Python skit where one character
insists that he is arguing simply by stating the opposite to the
other character.

Have you ever actually sat in on a rape trial? Have you heard the
evidence of either side? Have you ever discussed these hate rape
trials with an Islamic person and heard their disgust at the actions
of those who claim to have the okay from God to rape?

I don't think so.

Well, I have. I know what men do in rape is not about sex, or
religion. Sure it has a sexual content, but it is all about men
trying to appear men in their own minds, by the domination of women.
It is about some men thinking that they can build themselves up by
putting others down. Ethnicity has nothing to do with it.

Have you read, or listened to the accounts, of what so called
Christian men did to Islamic women in the wars in what used to be Yugoslavia? Or the murders commited in those conflicts by 'Christian'
men?

Does the Christan religion condone the rape and murder of Moslems?

Not since the Crusades as far as I am aware.

You peddle racial hatred in the guise of informed debate.

Well you have remained deliberately ill-informed.

Get a life, open your eyes and listen to the truth.

But sorrowfully I must consider that this is beyond you.

Cooktown is not very multicultural, but then again there didnt seem to be many trendy left wing homosexuals there either.
Thankfully the muslim rape gangs havent discovered the place yet. Even puppy dogs can move about the place unmolested.
Theres a fair few murris there, and none of them seem to buy cigarettes preferring to beg.
But it is sort of bland with no exotic food or culture. Bit of a catch 22.

"But it is sort of bland with no exotic food or culture. Bit of a catch 22".

You're obviously a local, if not you should be

Hamlet,Please stop with the pantheistic ideology, you are sounding like a Zen Buddhist philosopher on medication.
Do you understand the difference between Homogenous and Polygamy?
Great, before you invoke some simpleton’s version of Human psychology, read and understand that topic.
Ask a woman about Islam, I will leave a Web Address that will answer everything for you, do your self a favour “READ IT” please. http://derafsh-kaviyani.com/english/ :
I will throw in a few history lessons as well. Important: Read it.

Perhaps we can study mathematics “ Homogeneous” later! Monogamy and Polygamy was the intended topic, sorry.
Multiculturalism means lots of different restaurants:
The first thing one notice in the library is propaganda of almost Soviet intensity in favour of moral relativism and multiculturalism. It is as if exhortation has become the queen of the sciences. For example, a poster at the entrance featured the slogan, DON’T DISCRIMINATE: HIV DOESN’T. The imprecision of the thought behind this slogan is typical of the empirical and moral evasions of contemporary liberalism, which substitutes a penumbra of good feeling about oneself for the necessity to make hard choices based upon facts and real values.
This kind of undisciplined thought, or rather feeling, that mistakes a wish for a fact and leads to foolish policy decisions corrodes the soul of modern man. The library has a corner where people may post their poetry, and the verse is mostly full of oceanic feeling, as if true virtue consisted of uttering the right sentiment. Here is the last stanza of a poem about Nature, which makes a quasi-political point:
In nature all colours blend
in harmony with each other
let’s learn to live like nature
we are sister and brother.
The utter refusal to reflect deeply upon the reality of nature and human nature, to recognize the difficulty of life, together with the banality of the moral sentiment seems to indicate that the propaganda is working its poison.
On the escalator, another poster in favour of the glories of multiculturalism. It showed a West Indian gutting a fish. The accompanying slogan says: MR BARNES’S RED SNAPPER IS A BIG FAVORITE. A further slogan states that our city “is the most culturally mixed . Finally, in bright colours, is the following exhortation: PASS THE MENU.
So it’s Jain vegan today, Aztec cannibal tomorrow. Today we speak English, tomorrow Igbo, and the next day Gujarat. Today it’s equality for women; tomorrow it’s time for forced marriages. Life is a menu: I think I’ll start with the freedom of expression soup, to be followed by a nice theocratic salad

Yes, Mr Hamlet. This topic is indeed about multiculturalism. It deals with the utter stupidity of importing unassimilatable numbers of people from hostile cultures who’s concepts of right and wrong are diametrically opposed to ours, and thinking that this will somehow produce some sort of Utopia instead of creating yet another strife plagued culturally divided cesspit.

Your position is that everybody is exactly the same and that the core values of all cultures are exactly the same. So there can be no big problem to building a multicultural paradise where everybody can get along just fine.

So you began this thread by basing your position on a false assumption. You claimed that Muslims are just as opposed to the crime of rape as Western people are. By proving that you are wrong, I am displaying how stupid your assumption was, and that the basis for your entire argument is false. I know that you now realise that you have dropped a very big clanger and that you now wish to distance yourself from your previously stated position. But I have got you pretty much where I want you and I have no intention of letting you get away.

You have done no research on Sharia Law so I will help you. Here is an article by a female Muslim Hina Jilani http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/engASA330181999 which might stimulate your ideologically moribund brain into realising that Muslim values, especially towards women and women’s rights, are not exactly in accord with Western principles.

We are bringing men into this society who believes that Islam tacitly sanctions rape. They believe that women must obey Islamic dress and behaviour codes or she deserves to get raped. And if she gets raped it is her fault. The utter stupidity of this policy has been demonstrated in the continuing race hate rape attacks by Muslim men on “Aussie sluts.”

To bring people with such a backward and medieval mindset into an advanced society, and to think that they will be accepted and fit right in with us, is to embrace an ideology which defies both logic and reality.

@ Redneck : All of your information/so-call facts are Dated and boring.

Amel,
Another Muslims in denial of the behaviour their religion fosters. The Qur’an indoctrination engenders sexual abuse of women.

Dated eh?
Here is the section from the 2005 report on violence against women in Pakistan. http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/pak-summary-eng
Amnesty 2005 Report

Violence against women

Violence against women in the community, including crimes of “honour”, continued to be reported. The Human Rights Commission of Pakistan reported that in 2003 more than 600 women had been killed for alleged breaches of “honour”. Many cases went unreported and victims included very young girls.
· In June a tribal council directed that seven-year-old Mouti be killed for an alleged illicit relation with an eight-year old boy. Her father refused to accept the verdict and approached the local district administrator who provided protection.

Legal provisions allowing those who commit “honour” killings to seek forgiveness from heirs of the victim continued to prevent criminal prosecution.
· In June, Shamim Badshah forgave her husband for murdering their daughter Fozia, whom he had killed on suspicion of maintaining an illicit relationship. A court in Lahore where the murder case was being heard ordered his release.

Although women’s groups demanded that the waiving of criminal prosecution for crimes of “honour” by the victims’ heirs be banned in order to deter potential perpetrators, this provision remained unchanged. In October the National Assembly passed draft legislation making the handing over of a woman as compensation for murder a criminal offence punishable by up to three years’ imprisonment. Under another amendment, criminal charges under the laws on blasphemy and Zina (unlawful sex) are to be investigated only by higher ranking police officers. However, the amendments had not been signed into law by the end of the year.

Despite the Sindh High Court’s ruling in April that trials by jirgas (tribal councils) were unlawful, the provincial government was reported to be preparing legislation to legalize this private justice system. Trials by jirga continued to be reported and no steps were known to have been taken against those participating in them.

-------

All posted this link earlier on Islam and Womanhood it’s worth a read.
http://derafsh-kaviyani.com/english/islamandwomanhood1.html

Philo,

No, the historical fact is that I and many other Indigenous people were not citizens when we were born. Didn’t you know this?

This country was not ceded by Indigenous people and nor was it declared conquered. Precedent in International law required that treaties be entered into with occupying peoples. But despite Capt Cook’s special instructions that emphasized - "with the consent of the natives take possession of convenient situations in the name of the King... or if you find the land uninhabited Take Possession for His Majesty, no treaty exists" – and so our status as Indigenous people remains unresolved constitutionally. The modern nation constituted at Federation in 1901 excluded indigenous people from the State, and such exclusion continued until the 1960s.

The quality of inclusion afforded me and mine since this time is nowhere near commensurate with modern approaches in law and policy in other countries such as the USA and Canada and NZ. In my perspective this anomaly remains to be a loose hanging thread in discussions about Australia’s civil society.

“chip on my shoulder?”

Can’t you do better that use this tired old backhander? … If I do have a chip on my shoulder its because of this - I find it strange that people like you who appear to know jack sheet about how this ‘national identity’ came about, now feel obliged to castigate others about this same history and law. So whose shoulder chip is this really?

Me Grow up? May I suggest the knowledge displayed in your post to me does not provide evidence of even the most basic of facts in history and law required to engage -with maturity- in the content and context of debate here. Or is this paranoid commitment to ignorance a central tenet of Australian culture? I am, you are, we are Australian. Yeah sure

Oh, you are a Muslim, Mr Amel?

Could I remind you that the Christian countries went through through a bit of soul searching 500 years ago and decided to separate the church and the state? This we called the "reformation" and when we did this our societies progress began to accelerate to such an extent that we left the rest of the world far behind.

Your religion is a failure. Every Muslim society on Earth, that does not have a bunch of Overseas Chinese running it's economy, is an economic basket case. The most telling indictment of how much Islam is a failure, is that the more Islamic a society is, the more of a failure it is.

Despite oceans of oil, despite the richness of the Nile and Tigris Eurphrates river valley's, despite Islamic societies being in possession of the world's most revered archaolgical treasures, Islamic societies manufacture nothing but Persian carpets suicide bombers. Even tourism is declining because of persistent bomb and assault rifle attacks on visitors by Muslim religious nut cases.

I would advise you to reform your religion but I know that is a very big ask. Anybody who suggests it usually gets promptly murdered. I think that the best thing to do with the Muslim world is the Israeli solution. Put up a concrete wall between you and us and let your mob kill each other off with gay abandon, as you have always done. Maybe in another 500 years you will have reached a stage where you are fit to take your place in the modern world.

Redneck

I am not going to try to argue with you on this subject any more,
it is getting boring and a bit tedious trying to open a closed mind,
a bit like trying to demolish a wall by beating your head against it.

But you would be aware of demolishing walls, working in the building
industry the way that you do.

It must be galling seeing so many subcontractors, tilers, plumbers,
concreters and the like of Middle Eastern background, employing their
cousins and friends of their cousins in all the jobs that use to go to people
of Anglo-celtic background, and because they know how to 'work the system'
they seem to be able to quote such low rates and still drive such great cars.

All those Lebanese doing over the Australian workers, it is no wonder
that you feel such antipathy towards them. They must be taking over.

And damn, some of them manage to attract Australian girls, like the
girlfriends of the K brothers who thought that they were so cool.

Why cannot these women see what they are doing to themselves, and
how they are hurting good Australian men?

But that is what multiculturalism does:

To quote a great American patriot USAF General ‘Jack’. Ripper, in a slightly
different context but one that is applicable in the context of multiculturalism.:

General Ripper considered the fluoridisation of drinking water a Communist plot
to pollution precious bodily fluids, and was willing to go to war .

It is easy to see that Multiculturalism must be a trendoid, leftist plot to pollute the
precious Australian Spirit with Islamic blood, hence the use of rape gangs and sexy
cars to impregnate and defile OUR women, all in the name of Islam.

That is the real reason why we are at war with Islam, I mean terrorism, to keep
Australian women pure. And guess what, once we have kicked out the Moslems
we can start on all those other groups who don’t believe in God the Father, God the
Son and God the Holy Spirit.

Lets start with quotes from the "heavenly" Hadiths and the "ocean of knowledge", Koran.
1. (Al-Hadis, Vol. 3, p. 137) Abu Sayeed al-Khodri reported that Mohammed was talking to a group of women when he said, "... I see the majority of you will go to Hell." The women asked why, to which Mohammed responded, "You often curse and are ungrateful to your companions." He then told them they had a basic defect in their nature, to which they responded, "How?" Mohammed answered, "Is not the attestation (knowledge and witness) of a women only worth half of a man's? And that is on account of her short intelligence."
This quote really brings out Mohammed's "shining" views on women. He automatically condemns the majority of them to hell. According to him a woman's intellectual capacity is only half that of a man and that is why two women are required as witnesses as compared to one man.
He was so scared of women's intelligence that he said, "a man should not walk between two women" (Al Hadis, Vol. 1, p. 586) as that would mean that the man was taking a risk of being on equal turf according to Mohammed.

2. (Al Hadis, Vol. 2, p. 692) Ibn Ma`sud reported from the Messenger of Allah who said, "A woman is like a private part (sex organ). When she goes out (walking) the devil casts a glance at her (in lust)."
Well, this clearly gives us an insight into Mohammed's "pure" mind. To him women were nothing but walking vaginas to be used as objects for sexual fulfillment. No wonder he required women to be completely covered from head to toe. He had to have some way to control his lust.
Your Knowlege and perseptions are Outstanding Hamlet, look foward to your papers on womens rights.Multiculturalism hay,You should do your own RESURCH hmmmmm.

Deuteronomy 24
Law of Divorce
1 When a man takes a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out from his house,
2and she leaves his house and goes and becomes another man's wife,

Deuteronomy22

28 If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered,

29 then the man who lay with her shall give to the girl's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall become his wife because he has violated her; he cannot divorce her all his days.

(Great, if a girl was raped she had to spend the rest of her life with her attacker)

1 Corinthians 11

3But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.

9 for indeed man was not created for the woman's sake, but woman for the man's sake.

I could go on, but you get the picture - Christianity and Judaism are no better, according to their sacred texts - then Islam.

I would have thought, that was the point, Christianity, Anglo sphere had undergone the Reformation period, separation of Church and state, Turkey is the only other Islamic state to have attempted this move from a political stance, it can not alter the philosophical stance of Islam, as it is it self a doctrine of a the none existence of intellectual Pragmatism and that being the case and point regarding the Islamic issue. Theocratic Ideologies are that Ideology, not a philosophical positioning suitable for a guideline of reality, there is no definition of metaphysics, and a third point is Common law practice.
Seemingly, for those reasons appears why many on the left are attracted to Islamic movements, it is the Existing Prima of all anti theistic philosophies that consistent of primitive control and of no Objective Reason, The conjecture in rhetoric is not so dissimilar as Marxism’s integrated attempt to redefine Universalism, as does Kant or Spinoza etc.They can not handle reality, just invent ways to train the mind to avoid it and then reinvent it in a form more palatable to them, that is the intellectual contribution to explain the non existence of existence, hmmm, more reform please. Evolutionary doctrine and Civilizations have all come apart by anti theistic insurgencies, that is history, you can only advance people up to meet Civilization, not civilization wind back to meet others, the Roman Empire did that , and all was lost in only a few years.

Bye bye Hamlet. Don't bother crossing swords with me again until you have done your homework and have a bit of a clue what you are talking about. Of course, if you did just that instead of just parroting fashionable slogans, you wouldn't need me to straiten you out.

Hamlet,
I recognise your attempt to state women under Christianity are the posession of men. I ask what Christian Church, or nation oppresses women as second class citizens and practises honour killings? I suggest you read John chapter 4 and 8, on Jesus relationship to women, both considered low class by Jews and Islam.

Quote, "I could go on, but you get the picture - Christianity and Judaism are no better, according to their sacred texts - then Islam.

Philo

I was trying to show that the sacred texts of various religions can be interpreted to show that women are oppressed and discriminated against by those religions.

In general terms, where the men of any religion have been able to let go of the cultural biases that they hold, and instead be immersed in the spirit of the religion then those biases will usually dissappear.

Paul talks about men and women, Jew and Gentile, being equal in Christ.

When Christ himself talks about loving your neighbour as yourself, it means, amongst all other meanings, that men should treat women with the respect and love that they themselves expect.

Paul does talk about men and women having different functions, but never describes any function as being less than any other - the body has many parts, and all are needed, to paraphrase him.

In fact Paul gives men more responsibility, a heavier burdern to carry, so to speak. Men are required to 'love their wives', this is the love of duty, to give up their lives if necessary, not the modern idea of love as a feeling. Women, on the other hand, are only required to 'respect' their husbands. I don't have the passage references in front of me, but I am sure you know where they are.

The Old Testament commandments regarding relationships between men and women were actually intended to improve the situation of women. The Old Testament is full of commandments to help widows and orphans and to treat women with respect, as part of the community.

Selectively quoting from any scared text can lead to wrong conclusions. My understanding, frail that it is, is that prior to the Quran the lot of women in Arabia was even worse.

http://www.isteve.com/IQ_Table.htm
Interesting, Automaton programmed intelligential, sounds left to me;

Hamlet,

Sorry but isn't that the grand scheme, whereby Sharia law will be introduced after the conquest of the south-east asian region. Personally, as a jew I am as keen to see that as I would be to see the resurgence of the Inquisition.

Face it, the coming conflict will inevitably result in the detention of all citizens and non-citizens within Australia, of Arab, persian or other islamic ethnicity. The fact is that during both world wars, Australia did do so to naturalised German citizens, Italian citizens and Japanese citizens. I think racial profiling will very soon be the least of your worries, unless efforts are made now to distance the Australian islamic communities from the activities of their contempories overseas.

Just for your information these laws have been previously deemed Constitutional, and their is very little prospect of a succesful challenge.