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The Forum > Article Comments > Economies should be shaped to suit man > Comments

Economies should be shaped to suit man : Comments

By Nick Rose, published 15/1/2013

However unlike Friedman, Eisenstein's proposals advocate the redistribution of wealth and a more egalitarian society, rather than continued wealth concentration and inequality.

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Are you sure you've got the right target in mind, Poirot?

Since technically there's been 'capitalism' since there has been currency, which takes us back to the Late Bronze Age arguably, and to Iron Age Anatolia certainly.

Maybe your real target is industrialisation? Or the demise of agrarian societies?

Of course capital is an inherent aspect of industrialisation – but to stretch the analogy, it's a bit like blaming the petrol for the car that just ran into you. Even though it was the driver's fault – however inadvertent – who should have noticed you standing in the way.
Posted by WmTrevor, Saturday, 9 February 2013 10:07:29 AM
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Yo, WmTrevor,

Right you are : )

Industrialism + Capitalism IS the perfect storm.
Posted by Poirot, Saturday, 9 February 2013 10:18:48 AM
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Industrialism + capitalism + religion + nukes + greedy humans IS the perfect storm!

And it won't be long now before it breaks on our heads!
Posted by David G, Saturday, 9 February 2013 11:07:30 AM
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.

Dear David G, Grim & Poirot,

.

I share your concerns regarding the deviations, abuses and excesses of financial capitalism and their devastating effects on the economy and the eco-system resulting in so much human tragedy.

Let us consider, at least for the sake of this debate, that it may, perhaps, qualify as a crime against humanity and imagine that it is to be brought to trial before the International Criminal Court of the United Nations.

As democrats, I imagine that most, if not all, of us would agree that capitalism should have a fair trial and that it has the right to defend itself, even if we are persuaded, in advance, of its guilt.

Lynching capitalism without a fair trial is not my idea of justice, even for the worst of criminals. I am, however, in favour of capital punishment for any party found guilty of crimes against humanity.

Therefore, before condemning capitalism, and proceeding with its execution, I propose that we make an effort to put our rage on ice for the time being and calm down for the time necessary to examine the case as equitably as possible, collecting evidence, both for and against.

I also beg to suggest that we should carefully consider the dire consequences of eliminating capitalism, if, indeed, we find it guilty as accused, without immediately substituting it with a universally accepted alternative.

Trusting that this obtains your agreement, I respectfully submit the following document as evidence (Item 1):

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GNS.ICTR.ZS

In doing so, I draw your attention to the fact that capitalism is practiced throughout the world by a very large number of people, the large majority being middle class people.

Their life savings are tied up in capital investments, probably mostly in housing.

It is also interesting to note that the countries with the highest savings rates are:

- China ................... 53% of GDP
- Audi Arabia ...........47%
- Azerbaijan .............46%

The USA is relatively low on the list with a savings rate of only 12% of GDP.

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Saturday, 9 February 2013 11:19:07 AM
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Banjo Patterson, anthropomorphising nature by imputing 'capitalistic' behaviours and motivations to other species won't do. While it may seem 'common sense' that evolution is a purely competitive struggle of 'survival of the fittest', recent research suggests a rather different conclusion:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-human-beast/200909/is-nature-red-in-tooth-and-claw

http://www.soundstrue.com/shop/articles/Breaking_News-Science_Discovers_Intelligent_Life-In_Every_Cell-An_Interview_with_Bruce_H_Lipton_PhD?component=authorcontent

An excerpt from the latter:

"So, in a way, evolution is not based on survival of the fittest but is actually based on cooperation.

Bruce Lipton: Absolutely. Evolution is a reflection of cooperation. Evolution isn't one animal against another—it's animals learning how to live in harmony with each other. Maintaining our belief in a Darwinian struggle of survival of the fittest is totally counterproductive to our actual evolution. And its destructive consequences of this belief of survival as a perceived struggle are responsible for most of the problems that we have on the planet today."

I invite you to re-consider your deepest assumptions of the nature of human society, and the idea that capitalism is somehow 'natural':

http://www.zeitnews.org/viewpoints/jas-garcha/collaboration-vs-competition

"All in all, the old notion of competition being an unavoidable behaviour that is more productive, more enjoyable, and always leads to higher achievement seems to have little evidential support. Instead, we see that cooperation is far more beneficial to both the individual (in terms of personal success and perceived pleasure) and to society (in terms of productivity).

Ultimately, the only thing competition is universally good for is speed, which happens to fit in nicely with a capitalistic society where 'time is money'.

But in a society without money, what use would competition be other than as a displeasing, self esteem-lowering hindrance to human progress?"
Posted by Nick Rose, Saturday, 9 February 2013 8:32:00 PM
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.

Dear WmTrevor,

.

I like your analogy of "blaming the petrol for the car that just ran into you. Even though it was the driver's fault – however inadvertent – who should have noticed you standing in the way."

That basically sums up my opinion of many of the aberrations commonly attributed to capitalism.

Whatever the financial or economic system we are capable of imagining as a substitute for capitalism, there can be no doubt there will always be some who will seek to dominate, to take control and grab as much as they can, to the detriment of all others, without the slightest remorse.

Instead of focalising on capitalism, we should turn our attention to the behaviour of a certain number of "drivers" within the system and either root them out or oblige them to change their ways by every legal means at our disposal.

I suspect we shall find there is no such thing as a perfect substitute to capitalism which is both equally efficient and universally acceptable.

Even if we were to devise such a substitute, it is difficult to imagine that an orderly transition from one system to the other could be realised in just a few generations.

The sooner we get our act together the better.

We need to install a new, compulsory "driver's license" and police it rigorously and severely.

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Saturday, 9 February 2013 10:12:47 PM
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