Thanks David G, and sorry I got a bit heated before. I'm sure we all feel passionate about the positions we find ourselves entrenched in.

'Entrenched' is not a word that thinkers use, Squeers. They are always questioning, always alert, always joining the dots then re-arranging them, always evaluating what they are told, always looking for new ways to do things and looking at new paths to follow.

Banjo and you and I all began life the same way but, somehow, we have struggled to lift ourselves up by our bootstraps and succeeded. But our humble beginnings have kept us grounded in reality which is the starting point for any thinker.

Take care!

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Dear David G & Squeers,

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Squeers -

"apologies, I'm pressed and that is rather garbled. As I hope the foregoing indicates, I was alluding to capitalism ..."

Unfortunately, "it" does not "indicate" ... but "you" do ... which is all that matters.

Though, little by little, I am beginning to understand you, I have not yet arrived at the point where I can read your mind and automatically rectify any errors of expression.

As you know, I detest categorization, otherwise I should be tempted to mark you as being prone to tripping on the carpet in your haste to respond. But, don't worry, there is no risk of my ceding to such a trivial temptation.

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"Sorry to disappoint. Doubtless you have some dirt on the world's so-called cooperatives. Nothing escapes corruption in this world, where nothing is sacred".

You do not disappoint. You reassure. Also, as I hope you can see from my posts on OLO: ... I do not deal in dirt.

It is simply that on a few notable occasions, I have observed how so-called democratic procedures can be craftily manipulated. I have also witnessed that a regrettibly significant portion of mankind is tempted to seek advantage without cause whenever power and wealth are at stake.

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David G -

Your wisdom knows no bounds!

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David G,
I used the term "entrenched" deliberately, firstly as a WW1 metaphor to indicate the polarised positions here, as elsewhere more or less between left and right. But mainly alluding again to my suspicion that none of us are "thinkers" in any objective or unbiased sense. I acknowledged to WM Trevor above that "It is a constant worry that one is merely venting prejudice or some vested interest or psychological need etc." and this remains my position, though I for one am aware of the danger and try to be vigilant.

Banjo,
of course I don't say you deal in dirt ('twas a metaphor) any more than that you're a "philistine thickhead"; my use of philistinism was facetious from the start. And I anticipated your last paragraph above with, "... obesity, addiction, mental-enslavement, neurosis and meanness of spirit are all biproduct (of capitalism), not essence".
My mother always did say, "you're too clever by 'alf!", but I suspect she was being facetious too.

As a fully paid member of the “Starry Eyed”, I have a problem with both Capitalism and Democracy.
Capitalism as a system is not about free or laissez faire markets, or competition. It's about the acquisition of Capital.
Endlessly.
In such a system, Greed is not just Good; it's everything. Making one of Humanity's most unattractive traits the basis of our economic system is bizarre to say the least. We (most of us at least, I think) don't admire greed in our friends and associates, and certainly not in our children, so why do we find it so laudable in our highest -material- achievers?
The great advantage, empirically tested over many decades, of the Capitalist system over the Socialist system is not the more utilitarian application of Greed, but the residual effect of allowing Competition. I say residual because Capitalists hate competition. It gets in the way of acquiring Capital.
Competition lingers on despite Capitalism, not because of it.
If we could simply refocus our goals to free -and fair- markets, and free -and fair- competition, then this I would suggest could be the “next chapter”; how to get from here to there.
A simple start would be a -much, much- stronger ACCC.

And the problem, indeed the fatal flaw, of Democracy will be evident in the coming months.
Every three years or so we the people get the chance to vote in the party who offers us the most, and charges us the least.
We demand more and better services, while at the same time we resist any attempt to actually pay for them (pay more tax).
While this does to a small degree provide incentives to politicians to come up with new and innovative ways to raise money, the Neo Liberal doctrine embraced by both major parties has denied our Government the right and ability to raise funds in the most obvious and practical way.
By going into business (again).
The greatest advantage of diversity is we don't have to rely on ideology or theory. We can just look around and see what works best.
Personally, I think we could learn a lot from Singapore and northern Europe.