David G:

Thanks for posting the reference to your claim. I’m afraid, however, that this reference goes a long way to discredit your argument, rather than prove it.

I assume you have not read the Countercurrent article that you provided as evidence. I have. It is a mostly collection of conspiracy theories and hearsay taken as facts.

Let’s examine a few of the fanciful reasons for deaths attributed to the US::

- ‘luring the Soviet Union into invading Afghanistan’. Curiously the Soviets are not to blame for killing millions of Afghans in that invasion – blame the US instead.

- assisting South Korea to repel the invasion from the north (with full support from the UN). The great thing about this argument is that you can have it both ways, if the US did not provide help you could then blame them for causing deaths in South Korea by withholding assistance to repel the invaders

- assisting Hissen Habre to come to power and form a dictatorship that caused the death of some 40,000. Ignore the fact that Chad was a failed state prior to that, with civil wars raging throughout the country

I can go on and on refuting the points of this article, but my time and space on OLO is limited. The bulk of the claims simply hold the US accountable for the actions of every government it ever provided assistance to.

Your argument, if it is mainly based on this article, is on very shaky ground.

csteele:

It appears from what you are saying that one is not required to condemn the worst transgressors as long as Israel is condemned. This is like saying that it is ok if we do not condemn the murderer, as long as we throw the book at the jaywalker. It doesn’t make much sense to me, and I suspect most sensible people will not agree with you on this.

Furthermore, you are disputing the fact that "Israel is a minor player when it comes to oppression", citing the number of refugees as proof. It is important to remember here that the Palestinian refugee problem was actively nurtured and promoted by the Arab states as a strategy to de-legitimise Israel by refusing to integrate Palestinian refugees, their brothers, into their societies. In comparison, the Jewish refugees from Arab countries were absorbed by Israel decades ago. In 1948 the number of Arab refugees was estimated at around 700,000 - similar to the number of Jewish refugees. While there are no more Jewish refugees today, the number of Arab refugees has ballooned to several millions.

The ruling Hamas group has not just ‘offended the occupying power’. They were shelling Israel with daily rockets AFTER the ‘occupying power’ has withdrawn from their territory. Incidentally, referring to Hamas as democratically elected is misleading in the extreme – when was the last election there? Have you not heard of the violent ousting of their rival – Fatah – following their ascension to power? The idea of a democracy is as foreign to them as it was to the Nazi party in the 1930s.

Finally, comparing the situation in Israel to the China-Tibet state of affairs is not valid, as China extends its sovereignty over Tibet whereas Israel has withdrawn from Gaza and much of the West Bank. The Israeli government supports the two-state solution, whereas China has no plan to leave Tibet.

Dear Avw,

No I am not “saying that one is not required to condemn the worst transgressors as long as Israel is condemned.”. I have always firmly believed that the caste system in India was and to a degree still is a far more transgressive form of internal racism than even what existed in South Africa. Yet I would never have argued that we needed to fix the situation there before addressing the injustices in South Africa.

There were many fine, passionate Australians who made sure the evils of Apartheid were front and centre whenever we received diplomatic or sporting visits from that country.

If we were to have apologists for the caste system writing weekly pieces on this site I'm sure they would be copping more than a little flack from most of us. We instead have Singer and Ariel.

Your argument about refugees can just as easily be made from the other side of the issue. There were many European Jewish refugees who were made to feel unsafe in their countries so vast numbers were foisted on the Palestinian people including the native Jewish population. Australia absorbed some but not without strong resistance from many Australians including senior politicians.

Israel spent just as much time shelling Gaza after the withdrawal as Hamas did engaging in rocket fire. They also imposed a brutal blockade, withheld millions of dollar owed to Hamas, and lobbied other countries to withdraw vital aid.

Finally comparing Palestine and Tibet is perfectly valid as the Israeli government, despite your assertions, has shown it has little intention of leaving the West Bank. It has allowed 600,000 of its citizens to steal land and illegally settle within the West Bank. It effectively retains full control over half of the West Bank and nominal control over the rest. Do you really think we are that stupid to believe, after the Israeli government having just announced yet another 3,000 fresh illegal houses to be built on occupied territory in direct violation of the Geneva Convention, that it believes in a two state solution?

No dice my friend.

Dear csteele,

There are a number of oppressive acts by a number of oppressive countries. Almost all countries are oppressive at one time or another either to their own people or other people or both.

It is easier to see the 'mote in the neighbour's eye rather than the beam in our own.' It is also most sensible to condemn actions that our condemnation can do something about.

As far as the latter point it makes little sense to attack the caste system in India, bad as it is, since one would be pretty much alone outside India in condemning it. In India there are movements to change the caste system. The Harijan or untouchables in India are organising and have support in some other segments of the Indian population. India is lessening its problem within itself as the civil rights movement lessened the racial problem in the US to the extent that the US elected a dark-skinned president. The US and India both have problems within the country, but both have movements which are doing something about it.

in Australia both major parties have spent a great deal of effort in making a small number of boat people a menace. The policies of Australia in that regard have violated the refugee convention. Australians have managed to shut their eyes to the illegal acts by Australia in assisting PNG to maintain the blockade against Bougainville and to suppress the people within Bougainville. Most Australians, I believe, are unaware of the condemnations of Australia in that conflict. Most Australians do not belong to Australians for Native Title and Reconciliation (ANTaR) which seeks to recognise the disabilities suffered by Aborigines and Torres Strait Islanders and see they get a fair shake. It was reprehensible of Australia to seek to minimise the results of the Mabo decision.

Israel has merited condemnation for its treatment of Palestinians. The settlements are also illegal and should be entirely evacuated. A country has a right to maintain an army of occupation on conquered land. It has no right to make permanent civilian settlements on that land.

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Israel committed a war crime in dropping cluster bombs in Lebanon in the final days of the Lebanese incursion. They continued to kill after the Israeli forces withdrew and served no military purpose. Since many countries either use those devices as part of their arsenal or tolerate their allies using those devices as Australia does the US Israel will not be condemned for the cluster bombs as that would be in the nature of the pot calling the kettle black. I am for the complete elimination of cluster bombs, depleted uranium, land mines and condemnation of countries that use them.

There is a factor involving Israel that does not exist with many other nations. That is the fact that many other nations around Israel would like to terminate Israel’s existence. Australia, China, India, Indonesia and many other nations are oppressive in part but do not have a real concern with mere existence. Fear does not justify oppression, but it can be a factor in explaining it.

To some extent Israel is a reflection of its neighbours. In Egypt Sadat who wanted peace was murdered by a member of the Arab Brotherhood who did not. In Israel Rabin who wanted peace was murdered by an ultra-orthodox Jew who did not. Israel might be wiped out by its neighbours. It does not have the capability to wipe out its neighbours although it has military superiority over those neighbours at the moment.

The fact of the Holocaust is no excuse for present oppression, but it is a factor in explaining it. Many Israelis are frightened and feel they are threatened beyond a real threat. This same situation has existed in other countries. Apartheid South Africa felt justified in maintaining its oppression partially because of memories of the concentration camps that England put the Boer families in. In the US the Republican Party since Nixon has exploited the feelings of the defeated southern rebels in the Civil War.

The Israelis will probably re-elect the present government, and the beat will go on. Is there any reasonable solution?

Davidf,

Considering that cluster bombs are not illegal internationally, how can their use be a crime