Great article and well explained. thank you David I wish more people would understand the complexities of the situation and learn from your article.

Surely it is high time for the world to admit to making a colossal mistake in allowing the formation of Israel smack in the middle of where another group of religious people had been living for centuries.

Surely, give the brutal history of the Israelis and their continuing blockade of Gaza and occupation of the West Bank, it is time to accept that there will never be peace in the region while Israel exists. Surely it is time for another section of land to be set aside where the Israelis can move to that doesn't create friction.

As the U.S. is the major supporter of Israel, it could create another state within its borders called Israel (which would be disarmed) and the whole world could settle down instead of being faced with the constant threat of nuclear war!

The Israelis in America and the American Jews could have a wonderful time together, kind of a Children's Picnic. And I'm sure most the world's nations would support this change!

There, problem solved (wild applause)!

P.S. Of course there would need to be agreements entered into to ensure that U.S.-Israel wouldn't try to create Greater Israel smack in the middle of the U.S. otherwise we'd end up back where we started from.

Jew-hating genie? What Jew-hating genie? I grant you a Zionist-hating genie, morphing in some cases into an Israeli-hating genie, but you have brought that upon yourselves, haven't you, David?
Consider the following from Ze've Jabotinsky's book 'The Iron Wall: We and the Arabs'. This was published in 1923, but holds true today and will hold true tomorrow.
"All well-meaning people, with the exception of those blind from birth, understood long ago the complete impossibility of arriving at a voluntary agreement with the Arabs of Palestine for the transformation of Palestine from an Arab country to a country with a Jewish majority."
Don't you just love that? The transformation of Palestine from an Arab country to a country with a Jewish majority. Sort of puts paid to that nonsense of a land without a people for a people without a land, doesn't it, David?
Or this from the same book - "It matters not what kind of words we use to explain our colonization. Colonization has its own integral and inescapable meaning understood by every Jew and every Arab. Colonization has only one goal. This is in the nature of things. To change that nature is impossible. It has been necessary to carry on colonization against the will of the Palestinian Arabs and the same condition exists now."
Or this - "To the hackneyed reproach that this point of view is unethical, I answer -absolutely untrue. This is our ethic."
There is no Jew-hating genie, nor is anti-Zionism anti-Semitic.
Apples and oranges, David. Apples and oranges.
My source for the quotes from Jabotinsky's book is http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article33226.htm

Somebody, it seems, has yet to break the news to those in power in Israel that they are in an increasingly multi-polar world in which Arab nations in particular and most forward thinking progressive nation simply won’t subscribe to the pro Zionist approach to terrorizing and slaughtering innocent men, women and children in Gaza, no matter the feeble excuses Netanyahu uses to justify his illegal stranglehold on the Palestinian people.

When it comes to the new reality facing Israel, you would think some common sense would prevail, but no, now it’s let’s just build some more settlements and further aggravate the problem some more. Very mature!

Whatever the Zionist’s dreams may be, they will be shaped and constructed by a world that has its eyes fully open to the genocide currently being waged against the Palestinian people and Israel’s reliance on the United States will erode as the US loses more and more power as its global power continues to rapidly wane.

A new reality will soon arrive on the horizon and the Zionists are in for a rude shock.

David must be suffering terribly because of the U.N. vote which showed that Israel, in the eyes of much of the world, is a pariah State.

Yet he plugs along with his endless futile propaganda seemingly undaunted by the increasing unpopularity of his nation. Of course, which is his nation? If he loves and worships Israel so much, why doesn't he live there? He talks the talk but he won't walk the walk.

Of course, David is one of millions of Jews who don't live in Israel, who won't live in Israel. They must have misgivings about the Jewish Nation, just like David obviously does but he never admits it.

Why should anyone take any notice of your Israeli propaganda, David, when you show to the world (and the OLO readership) that you wouldn't choose to live there?

Poor David, still batting away with his nonsense.

1. it was jewish terrorists who evicted 800,000 Palestinians from their land, not the other way around.
2. any jewish people in the West Bank are illegal squatters, something they recognised in June 1967 according to Akiva Eldar and other historians.

Why do OLO continue to peddle this propaganda with no articles from Palestinians to rebut?

Mr Singer obviously feels he is helping the Zionist cause with his constant accusations of antisemitism and Jew hatred against all those who support the Palestinians in their struggle for independence against the military occupation they have lived under for 45 years.
I believe he is very mistaken in his belief. To most progressive enlightened westerners, being called a racist is one of the worst insults that can be made. Each of us who supports the Palestinians knows full well what our motivation is. And for most of us that is the desire to see justice done and for the Palestinians to enjoy the kind of freedom that both we in Australia and those in Israeli enjoy. Not some mythical Jew hatred that Mr Singer would invoke. To insult us in such a way is unlikely to convert anyone to his distorted world view where freedom and justice belong only to the chosen people.

More crocodile tears from the Zionist lobby, Mr Singer's articles are rather pythonesque in their tireless attempts to portray the predator as victim. I'm also waiting for some "balancing" pro-Palestinian propaganda.

Rhys Jones,

"To most progressive enlightened westerners, being called a racist is one of the worst insults that can be made."

Don't agree entirely, the terms "racist", "anti-Semite" and "Islamophobe'" have been degraded by hypocritical misuse. Anti-Arab racism is widespread on many of the pro-Zionist websites, most of them don't even bother to disguise the poison as "anti-Islamism."

The standard riposte to dishonest charges of anti-Semitism is "well, you're anti-goy"

Singer alludes to Jews living in the occupied territories, as though they should have some right to remain there. He says they have been living there legally. By whose laws? The laws of Israel are no more relevant to who my legally live there than are the laws of Upper Volta (to give but one example).

He refers to Jews having been expelled from those areas in 1948. Such people should be allowed to return there, just as non-Jews who formerly lived in what is now Israel should be allowed to return there. (Unfortunately Singer has a severe blind spot here - Jews matter more to him than non-Jews.).

As for a "Jewish state" and his condemnation of the Arab response to it - well, what was that intended to mean? Certainly not a state where non-Jews living there at the time of the partition in 1948 had less rights than Jews - this is quite clear in the UN resolutions. Whether Palestinian leaders object to that sort of "Jewish state" seems quite unclear.

Israel's arrogant dismissal of world opinion by announcing another 3000 houses to be built in the Palestinian Occupied Territories seems to be pointing to a one-state solution - a Palestine-Israel which is democratic and secular and affords equal rights to all its citizens.

I've just been watching a video of an Israeli bus driver refusing to carry a Palestinian worker with all the 'correct documentation' so that he can return home from work. Apartheid is so 'yesterday', Singer, and should be stamped out as soon as possible.

According to the above responses, it would seem that they have all voted to be haters of Israel. As for the smart comment that David should be living in Israel before he has a right to his say ... perhaps those who criticize Jews for simply wanting to have their own State without constant fear of attack by Hamas should be the ones to experience life in the south of Israel before they make such flippant comments. I have a number of friends living both close to Jerusalem and in the south of Israel. Their children have been terrified by the constant bombardment with Hamas rockets over an extended period with little criticism from the rest of the world. And yet when Israel finally returned fire, there was a huge outcry.

Every individual has the right to their own religion. Since the time of Abraham, the Jewish religion has had as its very foundation God's promise to their ancestor "To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates" - in other words, a considerably greater portion of land than that in which they currently reside. God also told Abraham that he had not forgotten his son born to his wife's servant: Ishmael, the father of all Arab nations. He would have many descendants who would become a great nation. However God made it perfectly clear that it was through Isaac, the son promised to Abraham and his wife Sarah, that his covenant would be established: the covenant of Israel being a blessing to the nations and of his descendants possessing the land mentioned above, It's all there, in the first book of the Torah, which is also the first book in the Christian Bible.

Yes, this is speaking of religion, but it is impossible to separate any Middle East conflict from the religion of the people involved. And unless we understand this covenant promise made around 4000 years ago we can have no real understanding of Judaism - and, indeed, of the current conflict in the Middle East.

Elizan says "perhaps those who criticize Jews for simply wanting to have their own State without constant fear of attack by Hamas should be the ones to experience life in the south of Israel before they make such flippant comments."

The vast majority of posters here do not have a problem with Jews wanting to have their own state. The fact is they already do. It is the fact that the Palestinians do not that concerns us. As far as living in fear of Hamas rockets, What of the Palestinians living in fear of the much more powerful and frequently used Israeli rockets, not to mention ,mortars, helicopter gun ships, air raids, house demolitions, extra judicial killings, abductions and arbitrary arrests. When you occupy someones land and treat them badly they will always respond with violence. The fact is that the vast majority of violence is from the Israelis, not the Palestinians.

Elizann says: "And unless we understand this covenant promise made around 4000 years ago we can have no real understanding of Judaism - and, indeed, of the current conflict in the Middle East."

So we inferior Goys just can't understand anything unless we accept superstitious nonsense that is said to have happened 4,000 years ago.

Me, I prefer to live in 2012 and embrace reality which is evidence-based.

Theological fairy tales are for those who need a crutch!

Elizan says "Since the time of Abraham, the Jewish religion has had as its very foundation God's promise to their ancestor "To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates" - in other words, a considerably greater portion of land than that in which they currently reside."

Your religious beliefs do not give you a right to take someone elses land. Using it to Justify stealing someone elses land is the same as a fundamentalist Muslim saying their religion justifies killing infidels.

Your bizzare fantasy that you have been given great tracts of land by your imaginary god are about as reasonable as the 20th century German belief that they were a superior race and should therefore control the world. Look where that led.

The Jews have their own homelands, dozens of them. Australia is one of them. Each homeland is a state in which Jews are citizens with every right shared equally by all other citizens, even if David Singer wants something more on the ground of being "special".

Israel's days are numbered, and Mr Singer has correctly sensed that the UN resolution is some very early writing on the wall. The demographic bomb, and the slow erosion of Western patience with Israel's antics and of the region's oil supplies which underlie Israel's usefulness to America, point the way.

Th solution is RETURN. Exiles and foreign settlers to return to their own homelands. The easy way is negotiated creation of a democratic, secular, non-racist state for all who have a birthright to Palestine (all of it) as their home. The hard way if Israel continues to choose it is a nightmare for all, Jews and Arabs and others. Either way, racist Israel is finished.

Graham Y: Marilyn Shepherd posed a perfectly valid question that needs a response. When is OLO going to stop publishing this arrant nonsense from David Singer that is nothing more than ill-informed propaganda? And when are you going to provide space for the Palestinian viewpoint, or if that is too much to expect, some informed and balanced comment such as provided by Juan Cole, Alan Hart or even Robert Fisk?

It is interesting to read the comments from Jewish people in Australia,including the author, with their strong support for Israel.
If Israel is "The chosen land", why do you not live there seeing as you play the religous card
Could it be you may not have the same standard of living, that you enjoy in Australia.

I think it is important that we continue to be aware of the hasbara from pro-Zionists and I would not criticize OLO for giving space to Singer.

We should be in touch with their hatred of Palestinians, if not all Arabs or even all Moslems. We need to understand that their arrogance is bred in their school education.

The articles also provide readers an opportunity to put forward alternative arguments which may be of interest to those numerous Jews who hate racism and who would be attracted to join organisations such as the excellent hard-working, professional Jewish Voice for Peace which works tirelessly against Zionist thinking and practice.

OLO perhaps should seek out a few articles which are more balanced, which they sometimes do.

You may agree that Singer's arguments are sometimes also good for an ironic laugh!

Well David Singer, every generation of anti-Semites has it's rationalisations. Jews are "Christ killers" or are in a conspiracy to enslave humanity or whatever.

As the unhinged demonisation of Israel demonstrates, Israel-hatred is merely the latest iteration of what Robert Wistrich so aptly calls a lethal obsession*.

I'm afraid there is never any point in trying to have a rational discussion with anti-Semites.

Here are examples of David G's thinking:

>>That's why the U.S. is all but bankrupt and is run by carpetbaggers, conmen, rabbis and corporations.>>

See: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=13872&page=0

And:

>>If there has been hatred of Jews over centuries then there must be some reason for this which must have something to do with Jews themselves.>>

See: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=14025&page=0

You seriously what to enter into a debate with someone like that?

C'est la guerre


*A Lethal Obsession: Anti-Semitism from Antiquity to the Global Jihad,
Robert S. Wistrich

http://www.amazon.com/Lethal-Obsession-Anti-Semitism-Antiquity-Global/dp/1400060974

stevenlmeyer mistakes hatred of Zionists for Jews.80% of Jews in the USA voted for Obama who is against the Zionist attack on Iran.The Jews Steven do not support the nutter Zionists.

>>80% of Jews in the USA voted for Obama ….>>

For the record.

Obama got 70% of the Jewish vote. Some of the nutters here and in the US notwithstanding, he should have got 100%. The Obama administration has been the most supportive of Israel of any administration since Truman.

It was the Obama Administration that contributed $205 million towards the development of Iron Dome. The US and Israel are also cooperating on the further development of missile defence systems.

Overall the level of cooperation between Israel and the US in the development of military technology has deepened under Obama.

Dear Stan1,

As I have said in the past I too have no problems with OLO placing before us articles by David Singer as much as I find some of them quite contemptable and racist. They certainly have given me and I suspect others an insight into a kind of thinking that I was originally unaware existed. In many ways Mr singer does for the Israeli cause what runner does for Christianity.

I also have no problem with him continuing to falsely claim that settlements that are deemed illegal by the Geneva Convention, by the UN, and by international law are somehow legal. That is his right and he can be challenged and rebuked by any of us.

What I do have a problem with is his implication that those who want to see those illegal settlements removed and an independent Palestinian state realised, are 'Jew haters'. That includes myself, my entire extended family, millions of my fellow country men and women. I object to this very strongly. It is a terrible thing to call anyone any time. The label rightly carries such deep import and in my opinion anyone who truly respects the power and history of that term would only deploy it with irrefutable evidence.

Mr Singer has neither the respect nor the evidence.

He again cheapens a legacy that should remain sacrosanct.

I am concerned that OLO would see fit to be a party to this piece and by association that cheapening. I am also interested in hearing an explanation of why what I feel to be wholesale slander was published. They are certainly within their rights to publish what ever they will, but I believe their standards are usually set higher than this article.

Stevenlmeyer,I was quoting Norman Finkelstein who was interviewed on Hard Talk.He also said the only 20% of Jews thought that the existance of Israel was important to the Jewish identity.

Arjay,
There's still a tendency among the "resistance", even the anti Semitic elements to view things in universal terms, what's true for the U.S.A is not true for the rest of the world, Jews and "Zionists" do control the U.S media and AIPAC does exert undue influence over political life there, these are indisputable facts and are well enough explained elsewhere that we need not go into them here. That doesn't mean however that the same is true of Israel's other partners, what about Israel's role in Africa or her relationships with India, Australia and China are they the same as her relationship with the U.S?
There is no universal rule of thumb, ever, this is the WASP delusion, this is why critics of Israel and Jews always lose, their case is always based on some universal set of standards such as "Human rights" which can be shot down or dismissed as a generalisation.

Palestine - hands up those who hate Arabs

By Singer's misappriated, highly presumptious and insulting definition: that those who oppose the expansion of Israel or its policies or its defiance of UN resolutions when it suits the Zionist lobby must therefore be haters of Jews - Mr Singer and his supporters can equally be accused of being haters of Islam, of Arabs and, in particular, of Palestinians.

Should Singer deny this then, logically, he must retract his statement and apologise.

Jay of Melbourne,Just the title "hands up who hates the Jews" is again playing the victim card to stop criticism of what the Zionists are doing in many countries.

The World is changing with the rise of China and and the Non Aligned Movement of 120 countries who are resisting Western Imperialism.

China is 2008 decided that no more Western Banks would be allowed to create their currency.It still creates 80% of it's new money via Govt Banks while the West langusihes in debt created by our private banks.This is one of the reasons why China is being demonised and the Western Oligarchs are pushing for a military conflict.

The invasion of Afghanistan,Pakistan,Iraq,Libya,Somalia and now an attack on Syria had nothing to do with Terrorism.They want the energy/resources of these countries and the strategic positions to contain Russia/China.

The West wages wars mostly by paid proxies like Al Queda or gets countries like Turkey to do their dirty work.

stevenmeyer,

You've indicated some particularly offensive comments, however we need a reference, so, which other comments here are "unhinged" demonisations of Israel and which aren't?

I presume that you don't regard all comments on this thread that are critical of Israel as "anti-Semitic," although it certainly appears that way because I haven't seen any ethical defence of Israeli policies. Instead you've resorted to "begging the question", by referencing links on anti-Semitism and claiming the moral high ground.

The facile assumption that criticism of Israel is motivated solely by anti-Semitism is remarkably arrogant.

Wow what a response by those of you who have put your hands up as Jew haters.

Most I have identified as such in your previous responses to my earlier articles. Welcome to the new members of the club.

You are all perfectly entitled to your own opinions.

One thing is certain however - they will not help bring about a resolution of the Jewish-Arab conflict that has raged for the last 130 years - only serve to inflame and prolong it.

You all obviously support Mahmoud Abbas' following claims:

"The international community cannot force us to recognize the nature of the Israeli state. Do not force us to recognize a Jewish state. We will not accept it."

"We have frankly said, and always will say: If there is an independent Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital, we won’t agree to the presence of one Israeli in it..."

And Abbas is the "moderate" - embraced by all and sundry at the UN - the "President" whose term of office expired in 2009, a Holocaust denier and the Chairman of the PLO which claims Israel,Gaza, the West Bank and Jordan are one indivisible territorial unit.

How will his statements help resolve the conflict?

How will the UN General Assembly Resolution help resolve the conflict by telling 600000 Jews they have to pack up and get out of their homes where they have lived for up to 40 years?

If increased violence between Jews and Arabs is to be avoided then this General Assembly resolution needs to be reversed - and soon.

That is my opinion and nothing you have said encourages me to change my view.

Indeed the views expressed in so many of your posts convinces me that the genie of Jew-hatred has been uncorked well and truly as a result of the General Assembly vote.

You are giving comfort and support to those who want to exacerbate the conflict - not resolve it.

"Indeed the views expressed in so many of your posts convinces me that the genie of Jew-hatred has been uncorked well and truly as a result of the General Assembly vote," says the Singer.

Well, his mischievous article has achieved its objective: to detract from the U.N. vote which showed strong support for Palestine, and to play the boring 'Jews are Victims' lament, and to accuse anyone who doesn't support Jewish brutality and aggression and imperialism as 'anti-semitic'.

The only way to stop Singer's propaganda is to ignore him totally. Folks, he is playing us for suckers!

To David G

Your offensive suggestion - made on more than one occasion - that I pack up and go and live in Israel - was wisely foreseen by the 51 members of the League of Nations when they approved the terms of the Mandate which contained the following Recital:

"Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country;"

This provision was inserted to deal with precisely the comment made by you.

This provision is still alive today by virtue of Article 80 of the UN Charter.

You and so many other posters continually want to ignore the message and the facts I present to support the message - preferring instead to shoot the messenger by denigrating me personally, suggesting I move and calling on OLO to ban my articles.

I could have asked OLO to remove many personally offensive or Jew-hating posts.

I have never sought to do so.

Such posts expose to public gaze that views such as yours are alive today in Australia telling Australian Jews that if they support the Jewish State then they should pack up and get the hell out of here.

The League of Nations and the United Nations at its very formation rejected your viewpoint and I hope the vast majority of Australians reject your viewpoint as well.

Obama by sacking General Petraeus and 30 other officials you don't know about, has averted a serious conflict with Iran thus bring Russia and China into this conflict.After Libya Russia drew a line in the sand and said no more.The West told Russia that they would not harm Gadaffi but they allowed him to be tortured and murdered.This really angered Vladmir Putin.

Gadaffi was working on a new currency for Africa backed by gold.This would lessened the power of Western fiat currencies.He also had oil and about 130 tonnes of gold.China was there helping them exploit their oil.That's why they invaded Lybia and murdered Gadaffi.

Obama sacked those who were on the side of the Zionists wanting to attack Iran.Obama still has an expanionist policy and a Syrian attack is still on the table.The Zionists put a lot of money into the Romney Presidential bid for no result.

How can Iran be a threat with no nukes and Israel with 200+ nukes, has attacked Lebanon and the Palistinians? Israel has been holding the world to ransom and that is now changing.When Bibi Netanyahu took his picture of a bomb to the UN representing Iran's threat,he was almost laughed out of the meeting.

We don't need a war with Syria or Iran.We don't need a war with China and Russia.

David likes to constantly remind us of the historical facts.
And he is perfectly justified and correct in doing so.
But here is another fact.
More than 50% of Palestinian children are suffering from illnesses directly related to nutritional deficiencies which are in turn a direct result of Israeli border control policies.
If we do not acknowledge that grave injustices are being experienced by both sides then we are little better than the leaders of both Israel and the Palestinians who are unwilling to acknowledge each other's legitimate grievances, which must surely be the first step towards a solution.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

Arjay,
I take your point but Zionism isn't always reactionary and like other forms of Nationalism it has factions who are anti globalist and who want only to secure a piece of land where they can live apart from others and according to their own customs and laws. The way the Israeli state behaves is always wilfully (and hypocritically) misrepresented as the be all and end all of Zionism, in particular by the Left, the Socialist and Liberal/Humanist perspective is mired the double standard of preferring Palestinian Nationalism over Jewish Nationalism, hence the charge of anti Semitism. Socialists and Liberal Humanists are the most vocal elements ins the BDS movement but in reality they're no more interested in the idea of a Palestinian nation than they are an English, Italian, or Swedish nation. They're just another arm of the NWO as you call it. and they're bent on and the destruction from the top down of every viable nation, Israel is just the next in line to be forced into "multiculturalism" and open borders for the sake of these universal ideals.

Thank you for the article David, and thanks for publishing it Graham despite the post-Finkelstein attitudes of the 'progressives' who take umbrage at any pro-Israel article.

The confusion amongst the 'progressives' is due, apart from their stupidity, their inability to distinguish between freedom of religion and the greater freedom to be free of the oppression of people having their freedom of expression.

The usual Zionist plots have been dredged up here as though Israel wants to conquer the world; it doesn't; it wants to protect its national integrity against the brazen and continual hostility by the Islamist nations around them.

This is to be compared with the continually declared intention by islam that it wants to conquer the world.

Israel, despite having its own home-grown religious nutters, is by and large a democratic society predicated on indivdual rights.

There is no such creature in islam.

In a way, therefore, Israel is a proxy for the West, and quite simply those who argue against its existence are in effect arguing against the existence of Western values.

cohenite,
I just do not accept that logic.
Positioning Israel as a proxy for the west is a sensible strategy for Israel and its supporters but that doesn't make it the truth.
When it's all said and done, this is about land.
As long as the negotiations are dragged out, then Israel is free to, sq metre by sq metre, via settlements, reduce the amount of land available for an eventual Palestinian state.
So, it's in Israel's best interests to always promise to negotiate and to never actually move forward with negotiation.
Also, you make a general and derogatory statement about Islam.
Now, I'm an agnostic so all religions are equally silly in my view, but let me ask you this:
If I were to make a general and derogatory statement about Judaism, would you call me an anti Semite?
I think there's just the tiniest possibility that your answer would be yes.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

"Now, I'm an agnostic so all religions are equally silly in my view,"

Your argument begins and crashes there; the equivalence idea is the modus operandi of political correctness and the left emasculation of the West.

it is also a product of a lazy mind.

Not all religions are equal; none are as aggressive, oppressive and barbaric as islam.

It is not Israel which does not want to negotiate; but who do they negotiate with: Hamas or Fatah, or Hezbolla, or Iran, or Syria?

>>More than 50% of Palestinian children are suffering from illnesses directly related to nutritional deficiencies which are in turn a direct result of Israeli border control policies.>>

Two countries / regions I've called A and B.

Here are some vital statistics:

A:

Maternal Mortality: 66/100,000 births

Infant Mortality: 24.23 / 1000 births

Life expectancy: 72.93

B:

Maternal Mortality: 64/100,000 births

Infant Mortality: 16.55 / 1000 births

Life expectancy: 74.16

(Source: CIA world factbook)

One of these is Egypt. The other is Gaza. Which is which?

Now some facts:

There is no blockade on food. Any amount of food can enter Gaza – at least from the Israeli side

The "blockade" has not stopped Hamas importing thousands of tons of weapons including rockets that are fired on Israel. I would have thought they could smuggle in a bit of baby food if some is needed.

The Egyptians can end the blockade immediately by opening the Rafah crossing. Personally I wish they would. For some reason the new Muslim Brotherhood regime has declined to do so. I wonder why.

I am reasonably certain that Hamas could negotiate a deal in which they give up their weapons imports in return for being allowed to trade with the rest of the world. Unfortunately, as per their charter, killing Jews seems to be more important to them than the welfare of Palestinians.

For me the biggest mystery is why the Egyptians do not simply allow the free flow of goods and services across the Rafah crossing.

Anyone got any theories? Preferably ones that do not involve blaming the Americans. It's getting a bit lame

Get your hand off it singer.
People hate Israel (not jews) because of its murderous attempted genocide of their Palestinian neighbors and the theft of their land.
Until Israel sets its borders permanently and accepts the right of the Palestinians to have their own country, Israel is nothing but a rogue state no different to Nth Korea, Iran or the old Afghanistan.
Indeed they are worse. Only Israel is seeking to expand its territory and settle(by force) land that does not belong to it.
Your propaganda and ceaseless whining are becoming less and less effective as people learn what Israel and the zionists really do to other people in their quest for control of all the land between the Jordan river and the sea. Just like their magical superfriend in the sky promised them all those thousands of years ago.
Makes me want to throw up.

Gaza: -

Infant mortality - 19.5/1000

Life expectancy - 73.4

Israel: -

Infant mortality - 4.0/1000

Life expectancy - 80.73

(source - WHO - 2010)

http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/885BD85F892778F28525772700503A4B

David

There was a time on olo when I was the only person who would refute and ridicule your propaganda articles.

Now there are dozens of people who are doing that... and while I get the urge to comment I find all my arguments are presented, usually more articulately, by everyone else.

And apparently they are all Jew haters ... lol.

Jew hater is something you never ever accused me.

I also note that your supporters are also still able to be counted on the fingers of one hand.

My oh my haven't things changed... since that defeat in Southern Lebanon and since the election of Hamas, in fair democratic elections, as the legitimate government in Palestine.

Oh I've also changed my mind. I now think a one state solution is the only possible outcome.

Correction:

Infant mortality for Gaza is 20.2/1000

It must absolutely gall you to see the unassasinated and unthreatened leader of Hamas moving freely about in Gaza, to know the illegal blockade of Gaza is broken and to see Egypt proclaimed as the regional peacemaker after the recent Israeli defeat in Gaza.

How is this possible?

After all it was Israel's intent to prevent those things and to militarily dominate.

You must see that Israel in fact being seen to fail to protect it's citizens on the back of a few rockets falling on Tel Aviv and Jeruselum and these galling capitulations?

David Singer

"I could have asked OLO to remove many personally offensive or Jew-hating posts."

Well, you could, but then OLO would be obliged to remove all explicit and implicit Arab-hating comments by Zionists and their supporters. Writing Palestinians as "Palestinians" seems to me to be particularly sinister.

So members of Hamas make anti-semitic remarks--there are numerous anti-Arab racist statements on record by members of the Israeli political elite and I emphasise "elite", apparently their expressed prejudices haven't affected their careers.

stevenmyer,

The issue in question is not statistics but morality. You still haven't identified all those other anti-Semitic remarks you allege have been made by commenters here.

cohenite,

"in a way, therefore, Israel is a proxy for the West, and quite simply those who argue against its existence are in effect arguing against the existence of Western values."

Yes, Western values as they existed more than 100 years ago, you might identify with 19th century style colonialism and racism, I don't.

To the Singer:

You quote, "The League of Nations and the United Nations at its very formation rejected your viewpoint and I hope the vast majority of Australians reject your viewpoint as well."

So here you are, a rabid supporter of a rogue nation that, with U.S. enabling, has continuously ignored numerous resolutions from the U.N. as well as a myriad other aspects of International Law, more so than any other nation in existence.

Such is the extent of your infinite hypocrisy and duplicitous mendacity!

How dare you!

Anthonyve wrote:

>>More than 50% of Palestinian children are suffering from illnesses directly related to nutritional deficiencies which are in turn a direct result of Israeli border control policies.>>

I did a bit of googling. This from the WHO:

>>...50% of infants and young children under two years of age in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip suffer from iron deficiency anaemia which is associated with inappropriate feeding practices for infants and young children, as well as limited access to, or compliance with, micronutrient supplementation…>>

In plain English many Palestinian children (and their mothers) aren't getting enough minerals and vitamins.

I find this puzzling. Mineral and vitamin supplements are freely available, cost cents per day, and can pass freely through border crossings on the Israeli side at least. For the cost of the 400 rockets Iron Dome shot down Hamas could have bought enough supplements for every Palestinian infant under two years of age, and their mothers, for a long time.

What is more I am sure that had Hamas had appealed for help on this matter shiploads of vitamin and mineral pills could have been despatched and if for some reason the Israeli government had declined to let them through the Egyptians could have.

I'm afraid all you've demonstrated, yet again, is that Hamas places a higher priority on killing Jews than on the welfare of Palestinians.

Rockets before vitamins is their policy.

They are true to their charter.

Mac

For what it's worth I do not think you are an anti-Semite.

But here is a test case.

Anthonyve stated that the nutritional deficiencies among Palestinian children is a "direct result of Israeli border control policies."

Plainly this is not the case. Is he prepared to withdraw that allegation?

Knowing that easily remedied vitamin and mineral deficiencies afflict Gaza children do you think it was "immoral" of the Hamas regime not to take action?

Do you think it is "immoral" of the Muslim Brotherhood regime to cooperate with the Israelis in the blockade? (I personally wish the Egyptians would open the Rafah crossing to trade)

*http://apps.who.int/gb/ebwha/pdf_files/WHA65/A65_27Rev1-en.pdf

Cohenite,
You accuse me of having a lazy mind.
Why am I not surprised by such arrogance?
At least I take the time to understand science
I find there the answers that I need, supported by data and experiment, and so do not need to take intellectual refuge in ancient myths.
You on the other hand are evidently dependent on a book of unknown origins, full of physical impossibilities and contradictions, assembled by people who thought slavery was acceptable.
It requires no intellectual vigor to believe such patent nonsense, merely naivete.
Or, perhaps, an inabilility to confront the void without disolving into terror.
To put it another way, you may keep your opinions of my mind to yourself, thank you very much.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

Elizann commented: “Every individual has the right to their own religion. Since the time of Abraham, the Jewish religion has had as its very foundation God's promise to their ancestor ‘To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates’".

Zionism is not a religious movement but it is founded firmly on the racist assumption embodied in that vile piece of blasphemous clap-trap, essentially that God has chosen the Jews as “special” in a way that the rest of humanity is not. Leave out that profound insult to the billions of people who worship a God they believe is a lot better than that, and the Zionist claim remains: Goyim are less “special” than Jews.

The world has already had to suffer scores of millions of deaths to repulse the equally arrogant, equally evil claim that “Aryans” are “special” in a way that the rest of the human species is not.

Not only was the Nazi claim of “Aryans” being “special”, with the right to grab “Lebensraum” from their neighbours, as evil as today’s Zionist claim, but their very invention of the mystical “Aryan people” was as unsustainable as the invention of the “Jewish people” (for which Google <Shlomo Sand> and read this Israeli scholar’s book “The invention of the Jewish people” for example).

As a non-believer in God, I personally believe in goodness and am thankful that the racist abomination of Israel is ultimately on the way out. The Third Reich went out the hard way, there’s still time for Eretz Israel to negotiate a comparatively easy way, leaving Jews born in Israel with the same rights there as everyone else.

Anthonyve; that's a lazy response; what "book of unknown origins, full of physical impossibilities and contradictions, assembled by people who thought slavery was acceptable" are you talking about? The IPCC AGW reports?

stevenmeyer,

"But here is a test case." A rather small sample, Steven.


<"Anthonyve stated that the nutritional deficiencies among Palestinian children is a "direct result of Israeli border control policies.">

I'd categorise WHO as an independent authority, so-
If you think that the statement has been refuted, you're entitled, in principle, to demand that he retracts the statement, or presents reliable data that contradicts the WHO, I'll let you two argue the point.

Yes, the Palestinians in Gaza are "represented" by Hamas who appear to be completely callous bastards, so what implications does that have for the justice of the Palestinian cause? Does it invalidate it?

Is the expansion of the settlements on Palestinian land immoral? Do you think that the former terrorists Begin and Shamir were honourable? What implications does that have for Israel and its cause.

Cohenite, in this case, I was referring specifically to the Torah.
However, I would apply the description to most religious texts.
There you go with the "lazy mind" comment again.
Even if it were true, which it is not, I would rather have a lazy mind than a brainwashed one; especially one that has been brainwashed by easily disprovable myths.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

"Even if it were true, which it is not, I would rather have a lazy mind than a brainwashed one; especially one that has been brainwashed by easily disprovable myths."

I agree, the IPCC reports are some of the most easily disproved myths going around.

I don't know anything about the Torah and care less.

Cherry picking history is a favored ploy of Israel's apologists. Hamas is a case in point. Hamas was created with the active support of Israel who saw it as a counterweight to the secular nationalist aspirations of the PLO. Divide and rule is a well-established ploy of colonial regimes everywhere. You may not like it Cohenite , Steven Meyer and your ilk but that is the historical reality. It has been openly discussed by such historians as Zeev Sternell of Hebrew University, the former US ambassador to Israel Daniel Kurtzer and (Jewish) blogger Justin Raimondo. The latter wrote a very intel resting article entitled Hamas - Son of Israel. Google antiwar.com for the article.
As ye sow so shall he reap and all that.

The same dance steps from Mr Singer yet again.

He continues with his vile slander and to debase the term 'Jew-hater' which as I have said utterly disrespects its legacy.

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict becomes the Jewish-Arab one.

He shamelessly takes a quote out of context. When Abbas made his statement about “If there is an independent Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital, we won’t agree to the presence of one Israeli in it” he was responding to “unconfirmed reports suggesting that the PA leadership might agree to the presence of the IDF in the West Bank after the establishment of a Palestinian state.”
http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=200935

He then poses the surreal question “How will the UN General Assembly Resolution help resolve the conflict by telling 600000 Jews they have to pack up and get out of their homes where they have lived for up to 40 years?“. The real question is how did the Israeli government think it was helping to resolve the conflict by allowing 600,000 of its citizens illegally settle in occupied territory in direct violation of the Geneva Convention? Further how does it think announcing another 3000 illegal homes east of Jerusalem help future negotiations? One can only surmise that the Israeli government and Mr Singer “want to exacerbate the conflict - not resolve it.”

However he is marginally better than his new acolyte and fellow lawyer cohenite. Cohenite is rather new to the Israeli-Palestine debate as some of his initial contributions have revealed but he is now slipping into his familiar role of sycophantic troll delivering sound bites. However as yet he hasn't been able to entirely park his anti-AGW shtick.

But then I might just be 'stupid' with a 'lazy mind'.

The Singer must be rubbing his hands together in glee. He's got the suckers going again with his article provocatively titled 'Hands up those who hate Jews!'

Divide and conquer is his motto, get them arguing about Israel, keep it on the map, don't talk about what it does, don't admit to any of its shortcomings or war crimes or genocide, instead throw in a bit of legalese now and again, bits of the U.N. Charter, anything to muddy the waters.

We are being had, folks. Singer is a Machiavellian figure who is manipulating us while he gets on with his racist Jewish agenda.

I for one will not engage with him again. He is bad news.

In 1967 Israeli war planes attacked a US unarmed intelligence ship call the USS Liberty.The US Govt were lead to believe that it was Egypt who attacked their ship.The US Govt sent nuclear armed planes to wipe Egypt off the planet until they learned it was a false flag attack by Israel.All these facts can now be verified via US Govt files released after 30 yrs of censorship. http://www.veteranstoday.com/alan-hart-israels-attack-on-the-uss-liberty-the-full-story/

Israel has been up to all sorts of treachery in the past and present,but now the chickens are coming home to roost.

Today it has been announced that six more countries have delivered themselves of the 'scourge of land mines'. These were; Congo, Denmark, Gambia, Guinea-Bissau, Jordan and Uganda.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-12-08/six-more-countries-added-to-landmine-free-list/4416536

No more will these deadly, cruel and indiscriminate weapons plight the citizens of these countries. It has taken enormous sustained effort from their governments and international agencies to achieve this remarkable feat. The announcement was made in Geneva where countries are meeting to evaluate the 1997 Ottawa convention on landmines.

The Palestinians also attended and “told the gathering they wanted to take advantage of the upgraded United Nations status they gained late last month to join the Mine Ban Treaty.”

The treaty has served to reduce the annual deaths from land mines by two thirds in a decade.

There were only four countries that laid fresh land mines last year. These were Libya, Syria, Burma and Israel, indeed a sorry bunch. Under Mr Singer's rules however we can only condemn three else we are cast as Jew-haters.

I think the argument above is starting to deal with semantics.

How about this:

Given the Zionistic intent of the current government leadership in Israel, and the continued US political support, although probably now obviously waning, it is highly likely at some point in the not too distant future someone is going to release a small but highly effective nuclear weapon in the the region of Gaza.

Vis, Singer's rant becomes moot, everyone else's constructive critisism becomes moot and the 'Chose people' and the Palestinians and a large majority of associated Arab people's disappear in a cloud of destruction.

I would like to see David's opinion on this, given his stance about rights and the legacy that has been 'gifted' to those so chosen by his historic religious indoctrination.

Long-term, does it really matter, most of these people will die and the entire region will become a fall-out zone that nobody wants to call 'home'.

Perhaps then the Zionists can lay legitimate claim to a waste-land that they will deserve given their military push to secure a 'homeland' based on a complete falsehood and financial and political influence globally that has led to the death of probably millions.

Go figure?

Thankfully the God of Israel will have His way as He always has. Smart people stay on the right side of the living God. Israels enemies only ever have temporary victory. Its not about to change.

To csteele

You state:

"The same dance steps from Mr Singer yet again.

He continues with his vile slander and to debase the term 'Jew-hater' which as I have said utterly disrespects its legacy.

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict becomes the Jewish-Arab one.

He shamelessly takes a quote out of context. When Abbas made his statement about “If there is an independent Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital, we won’t agree to the presence of one Israeli in it” he was responding to “unconfirmed reports suggesting that the PA leadership might agree to the presence of the IDF in the West Bank after the establishment of a Palestinian state.”
http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=200935"

Sorry - but the Jewish-Arab conflict began at least 65 years before Arab propagandists transformed it into the Israeli-Palestinian conflict after the UN Recommendation to partition Palestine into one Jewish State and one Arab State was rejected by the Arabs in 1947.

The following is the full quote from the Jerusalem Post article only partly quoted by you above:

"Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas announced on Saturday that when a Palestinian state is established, it will have no Israelis in it.

“We have frankly said, and always will say: If there is an independent Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital, we won’t agree to the presence of one Israeli in it,” Abbas told reporters in Ramallah.

He was commenting on unconfirmed reports suggesting that the PA leadership might agree to the presence of the IDF in the West Bank after the establishment of a Palestinian state.

“We are ready to have peace on the basis of international legitimacy and the road map, which we have accepted, as well as the Arab Peace Initiative,” Abbas said. “But when a Palestinian state is established, it would have no Israeli presence in it.”

Abbas has therefore twice repeated the mantra "Jews out" in his above vile and racist comments rejecting the presence of any Jews at all in the West Bank.

Abbas is a Jew hater out and out.

This particular article fully confirms what I have stated in my article.

Many thanks.

It's taken awhile, but finally Runner can take it no more, he has emerged from his bigoted 'hell', oops, I mean hole!

If we are going to talk about anti-Semitics, how about we look at the real history, the current anti-Semitism we see today is really based on hatred by the Zionists against the Arabs; this is still anti-Semitic no matter which way you look at it.

Singer is lost in his on miasma and will continue to post his evil intent no matter what the rest of the world has woken up to.

Go luck, David, you are going to need it, and then some.

Welcome to the UN, which you oft quote from, and the reality of politics, history and social conscience of the true peoples of the world in 2012!

'he has emerged from his bigoted 'hell', oops, I mean hole! '

really Geoff. In actual fact I am living in a very blessed state. Sorry to disappoint you.

No apology needed "Runner", may your blessed state continue to blind you to reality.

Religion is for weak people who require an excuse from some 'book' and 'mantra' that let's them speak of evil and proffer a blighted sense of reality and those things we normally keep hidden from 'others'.

David Singer is of your ilk.

I prefer to let science and those doing 'verifiable' science flood my brain with reality.

If you prefer a pre-constructed, bigoted, blind and irrational fantasy to reality that is your problem, not mine.

I do not hate anyone, I despise laziness and those who use a bigoted sense of history and truth as a mantra to gain an upper hand and as such, I despise Zionism. Truth matters and history is always, in most cases, revealed for what is truly revealed as the then fantasy.

Unfortunately for David, reality is starting to catch up rather quickly and he is struggling with his fervent belief in the "Torah fantasy" to satisfy his ingrained, myopic view of history.

Likewise "Runner", you should learn to think independently and stop following a book and prophet that has clearly been shown to be based on 'fantasy'.

Have a great weekend, Geoff

Mr Singer,

Quote: “This particular article fully confirms what I have stated in my article.”

Don’t flatter yourself. Yours is not an article. It is an opinion piece, published on an online opinion website. OLO is so named for a reason.

Firstly, While it may suit your argument to select quotes from the Jerusalem Post (in or out of context), your source is hardly reputed to be an unbiased broadsheet, rather a widely acknowledged right-wing publication. I suggest you broaden your reading material.

Secondly, to counter your quote of PLO President Abbas, there is this direct quote from Abbas’ speech to the UN in September this year and more relevant to your opinion piece (and yet, somehow you managed to miss it):

“In our endeavor, we do not seek to delegitimize an existing State - that is Israel; but rather to assert the State that must be realized - that is Palestine.”

Well, no wonder you didn’t include it – it flies directly in the face of your myopic view that Palestinians seek only to ‘wipe Israel off the map’ and counters the very foundation of your opinion piece.

Thirdly, 138 out of 193 votes (not including the abstentions) is, by any standards, a clear majority. Israel's government is losing support. The Jewish people are not. See the difference?

Fourthly, please do not quote UN Articles and charters to support your argument when they suit and then denounce the UN when it acts in any way contrary to your goals. That is the height of hypocrisy.

Fourthly, do not play the anti-Semitic card when discussing politics. It is a cheap, over-used and highly abused gambit. If Israel’s policies cannot stand on their own merit (without resorting to calls of anti-semitism) then their merit is rightly questioned.

Finally, Israel’s announcement of further settlements in East Jerusalem is a huge mistake, illegal by international standards and, much like your own stance on the Palestinian issue, symptomatic of why there will never be a peaceful resolution to the problem.

Just imagine if the Israeli government announced it was withdrawing to its original borders, encouraging Jewish West Bank settlers to return to Israel if they choose not to live in the new state of Palestine and the international community united to ensure the security of both Israel and Palestine....and Jerusalem became an independent 'Holy City' precious to the three Abrahamic faiths and governed as such.

To #scribbler

You state:
"While it may suit your argument to select quotes from the Jerusalem Post (in or out of context), your source is hardly reputed to be an unbiased broadsheet, rather a widely acknowledged right-wing publication."

The Jerusalem Post was not my source. It was supplied by #csteele.

I thanked #csteele for bringing it to my attention to confirm the contents of my article that Abbas wants all Jews out of the West Bank - and he made that clear by twice repeating it in this one interview.

I could indeed have quoted Abbas's statement at the UN as evidence of his continuing refusal to recognize Israel as the Jewish State at the very same time as he was urging UN members to recognise the Palestinian Arabs right to a State in 100% of the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

Imagine the impact if he had said:

“In our endeavor, we do not seek to delegitimize an existing State - that is the Jewish State of Israel; but rather to assert the State that must be realized - that is Palestine.”

That could have been a real circuit breaker.

Anyway like the comment by #csteele - many thanks for your comment which has given me a possible idea for an article dealing with the hypocrisy and deception inherent in Abbas's statement quoted by you when compared to what the PLO and Hamas Charters explicitly state.

Yes - 138 votes is indeed a clear majority - but majorities are not always right.

I have argued it was a gross error of judgement - like the Zionism is Racism resolution passed by the same General Assembly in 1975 and subsequently revoked by it in 1991.

I believe this present decision needs to also be reversed if there is to ever be any hope of reconciliation between Jews and Arabs - and I have given you four reasons why.

Hopefully it will not take the General Assembly 16 years to wake up and reverse the damage this resolution has done to resolving the Jewish-Arab conflict.

<<many thanks for your comment which has given me a possible idea for an article dealing with...>>

See Scribbler what happens when you break a broom in two?

Excellent comment, scribbler.

Perhaps you should keep snapping the broom - that way, the likes of Mr Singer's odious rhetoric will retreat into the realms of white noise.

May be I'm not all that smart. Yes all right, no need to shout so loud.

However I would not know what a Jew was like. I wouldn't know if I was talking to one or not.

To me they are pretty hard to pick, at least since we stopped painting a sign on their forehead.

Dear Hasbeen,

<<However I would not know what a Jew was like. I wouldn't know if I was talking to one or not.>>

This is probably because you never had a Jewish horse.
Well, that's understandable as not too many people own horses nowadays.

<<To me they are pretty hard to pick>>

Elusive indeed, no distinct shape, size, taste, sound, colour or odour, but there are two groups of people who believe they can spot them: Nazis and Rabbis. In fact those groups almost agree between them, with the minor exception that the Rabbis believe that people are able to join that group if they undergo certain studies and fulfil certain conditions (such as chopping a certain piece off their body). Both however believe that nobody can escape that unfortunate group - alive or dead, that one could even become the Pope, an Ayatollah, a milkman, a zombie, a tax-officer, a circus-breaker, a Singer, an anti-Singer, pumpkin-soup, an elephant, a horse or horse-manure, but if their mother was Jewish, then so are they. Funny the Christians believe that God had a Jewish mother!

Dear Hasbeen,

You would do well to recognise that Mr Singer has gone to great lengths to couch this issue in purely racial terms. He steadfastly refers to the parties as Jews and Arabs rather than Israelis and Palestinians. In fact he quite notorious for eschewing the single term Palestinians in what can only be described as a pathological manner.

How does this fit his agenda? Well Mr Singer does not believe there is such a thing as a Palestinian people, but further than this he gets to call those who oppose the actions of Israel as Jew-haters. Notice for instance what he has done with the words of Abbas who had been addressing the issue of an IDF presence in the West Bank.

“If there is an independent Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital, we won’t agree to the presence of one Israeli in it”

Abbas did not use the term Jew but in Mr Singer's world he gets to be called a Jew hater. This is despite 20% of Israelis not being Jewish.

You need to realise Mr Singer is also determined to parasitically evoke the deep emotions in us, his target audience, about the horror of what befell the Jewish people during the last world war.

He is not alone in doing this but I'm not sure there are many who do it with such little shame.

Dear Mr Singer,

You are a hypocrite of the first order.

You have seemingly made it your life's mission to do everything in your power to stymie the formation of an independent Palestinian state yet you condemn Abbas for not being willing to recognise the state of Israel as a Jewish state. We both know that the Israeli government only started insisting on this after Arafat wrote to the Israeli prime minister Yitzhak Rabin in 1993 stating “The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security.”.

cont..

cont..

After that concession was made the Israeli government again took a step away from peace by insisting this was now not good enough, that the Palestinians had to recognise Israel as a Jewish state. They knew full well how impossible this would be as 20% of the Israeli population were not Jewish.

Further how many Israeli Palestinians are allowed to settle in the illegal West Bank settlements? Are these not just hyper gated communities for Jews only? Are these 600,000 illegal settlers engaged in an ultimate exercise of racial purity funded by the Israeli government and protected by the tanks, and soldiers, and lives of the Israeli Defense Force? Sure Israeli law does not prevent Israeli Palestinians living in illegal West Bank settlements but they are hardly going to be made welcome by the current inhabitants.

This is leading to some interesting contortions from Israeli opinion makers;

“A remedy to this situation must be sought. Israeli Arabs can contribute to the Zionist cause, if Israel builds settlements for them in the West Bank and Jordan River valley. This suggestion makes sense on the following 3 grounds: Firstly, it provides Israeli Arabs with affordable and quality housing beyond the Green Line, thus aligning their interests with those of Jewish settlers.”

“Secondly, by building new towns for non-Jews, Israel reaffirms its commitment to equality amongst all its citizens. Thirdly, such a strategy divides Israel's adversaries: Nowadays neither the Arab League nor Amnesty International show qualms in encouraging the eviction of Jews from their homes - be it in Gaza or in the West Bank. The picture would be different if the evictees were Arabs. After all, how could Arabs be evicted from land the world claims belongs to Arabs?”
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4248627,00.html

So building seperate settlements for 'Israeli Arabs' is suppose to convince the rest of the world that there is no racism occurring and reaffirms an Israeli “commitment to equality amongst all its citizens”?

Oh my God.

When the intelligent world is moving away from the concept of organised religion that is used to enslave us and keep us ignorant.Why do intelligent Jews need a country that is so oppressive to the Palistinians and drags their past good deeds through the mud of this modern day fascism?

People like Albert Einstein would be disgusted at what the Zionists have perpetrated not only on their own people,but the enslaving of our common humanity in deception,treachery and ignorance.

To #csteele

I have made it clear to you on umpteen occasions that my use of the terms "Jews","Arabs" and "Palestinian Arabs" correctly describe the participants to a conflict that has raged for 130 years.

Ottoman and British Mandate Censuses counted the people as "Jews", "Moslems" and "Christians".

The Mandate for Palestine in 1922 spoke of the Jewish people, the Jewish National Home" and the "existing non-jewish communities in Palestine". Not a mention of "Palestinians"

The 1947 UN Partition Plan spoke of one Arab State and one Jewish State.

The term "Israelis" never existed until 1948. The term "Palestinians" was first defined in the PLO Charter in 1964.

Use of these terms mislead people into believing the Jewish- Arab conflict in Palestine started in 1948 and not in about 1880.

They mask a refusal to consider the San Remo Conference, the Treaty of Sevres, the Mandate for Palestine and article 80 of the United Nations Charter - the legal sources of the right granted to the Jews to reconstitute their national home in Palestine.

They conveniently ignore the Arab riots, massacres and killings perpetrated on Jews between 1880-1948, the migration of vast numbers of Arabs to Palestine (much of it illegal)as growing Jewish emigration made Palestine economically viable and attractive.

They serve as a pretense to making people believe the Jewish-Arab conflict started only when "the Israelis" declared their independence.

Such language serves to conceal that the National Home set aside for the Jewish people was located in just 0.01% of the captured Ottoman Empire - whilst the Arabs got the other 99.99% as part of a package deal agreed to by the League of Nations in 1920.

Most OLO posters here use the terms "Israelis" and "Palestinians" - not "Jews" and "Arabs".

Is their use deliberate with the above objectives in mind or merely the result of ignorance?

Why do you choose to use "Israelis" and "Palestinians" rather than "Jews" and "Arabs"?

#csteele - You have just given me another great idea for a further article on brainwashing and its effect on the Jewish-Arab conflict.

David Singer,
I look forward to that article, most people seriously believe that Israel was founded "because of the Holocaust", as far as I understand Shoah survivors made up only about 10% of the Israeli population by 1960.

David Singer refers to "the San Remo Conference, the Treaty of Sevres, the Mandate for Palestine and article 80 of the United Nations Charter - the legal sources of the right granted to the Jews to reconstitute their national home in Palestine."

What part did the Palestinians play in the San Remo Conference, and in formulating the Treaty of Sevres and the Mandate for Palestine, and formulating or voting for (either will do) article 80 of the United Nations Charter. None? Thought not. The days of people meekly accepting rules drawn up for them by foreign colonialists are over, thank goodness.

Oh, and by the way, where does the "re" in "reconstitute" come from? Do the people of the world accept the "re"? Do the Palestinians? Do the 7 billion goyim count?

David Singer,

< the National Home set aside for the Jewish people was located in just 0.01% of the captured Ottoman Empire - whilst the Arabs got the other 99.99% as part of a package deal agreed to by the League of Nations in 1920.>

In all of your propaganda articles this statement is singularly the most illustrative of the moral bankruptcy of Zionist ideology. All the inhabitants of the region are "Arabs" and therefore indistinguishable from any other Arab, any "Arabs" living on the land required by the Zionists would simply be moved aside, one way or another. They could always move in with other Arabs in a "Bantustan" somewhere else, after all they're all the same and who cares, certainly not most representatives of the declining imperial countries and definitely not most Zionists.

The fact that "just 0.01 % " of the land was the Palestinians' ancestral home counted for nothing because the people living on that land were "Arabs".

To #Emperor Julian

The Arabs were not innocent babes in the woods.

They were trying to get 100% of any territory captured from the Ottoman Empire even before the war was over. They only ended up with 99.99% and were furious to learn that the remaining 0.01% they thought had been promised to them - was not to be theirs.

Can you believe it - arguing because they missed out on 0.01% of the territorial spoils of victory won from the Turks?

That's when San Remo, the Treaty of Sevres, and the Mandates for Palestine,Mesopotamia and Syria kicked in. The Brits and French committed the promised 99.99% to Arab self-determination and the remaining 0.01% - called Palestine - to Jewish self-determination.

The Arabs still want to swallow that 0.01% in 2012. Voracious appetite but exceedingly poor judgement.

You also ask - where does the "re" in "reconstitute" comes from?

It appears in the Mandate for Palestine document which reads:

"Whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country;"

Shucks Emperor Julian - All the goyim of the world whose countries were then members of the League of Nations agreed to that "re" word.

The whole world - goyim and others - recognized that promise to the Jews when the UN Charter was drawn up in 1945 and Article 80 was included.

Perhaps you might now begin to understand why #csteele is so hung up on me using the words "Arabs" and "Jews" and not the terms "Israelis" (not in existence until 1948) and "Palestinians" (not in existence until 1964)

This conflict sure started before 1948.

#csteele just doesn't want anyone to know about that.

The deliberate use of the terms "Israelis" and "Palestinians" is nothing more than a form of obsessive Jew-denial and Jew-hatred.

Just hope you are one of the brainwashed innocents caught up in this semantic cover up and not one of its deliberate perpetrators.

Your ignorance of pre 1948 history seems to suggest this is so.

Wake up.

To #mac

Would you care to tell us what distinguished one Arab from another Arab in 1920?

Consider this statement:

"We rejoice, moreover, that your Highness and your people are of one opinion-that Arab interests are English interests and English Arab. To this intent 'we confirm to you the terms of Lord Kitchener's message, which reached you by the hand of Ali Effendi, and in which was stated clearly our desire for the independence of Arabia and its inhabitants, together with our approval of the Arab Khalifate when it should be proclaimed. We declare once more that His Majesty's Government would welcome the resumption of the Khalifate by an Arab of true race."

What do you think the words "Your people", "Arab interests", "Independence of Arabia and its inhabitants", "Arab Khalifate" and "An Arab of true race" meant?

Share your wisdom with us.

You further claim that:

"any "Arabs" living on the land required by the Zionists would simply be moved aside".

What do you think these words in the mandate meant?

"Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country;"

In your opinion did this mean "the non-Jewish communities in Palestine" were to be moved aside or were their civil and religious rights to be protected?

How come the League of Nations overlooked the fact that Palestine was the "Palestinians ancestral homeland" as you claim? Didn't the term "non-Jewish communities" include all the non-Jewish inhabitants living in Palestine at the time?

No wonder you want to start from 1948 and forget everything that happened before that.

Get real

Fellow, OLOs, in her article, 'Rediscovering Jurisprudence', Clare says the following: "Clever lawyers can literally help you get away with murder."

Lawyers have been doing this ever since they crept out of the woodwork and from under dank stones. The Singer has amply demonstrated that, in the case of Jewish lawyers, this is also the case!

To argue with him is a waste of time. He is not interested in your point of view, only pushing his own. If he lived to be a thousand, he would still push exactly the same line, never deviating, never conceding an inch.

This is because he is a religious fanatic and nothing deters him, especially the truth.

Argue with him at your peril. You'll wish you hadn't!

P.S. This has been a Public Service Announcement submitted by David G.

David Singer,

More sophistry, pious words mean nothing and don't try to divert the discussion by requiring irrelevant definitions.
I don't know why you bother to propagandise by trying to defend the indefensible, Israel has the US as a patron and protector, public opinion outside America doesn't matter.
I'll refer you to the chapters 6&9 in "The Arabs" by Eugene Rogan, the Palestinians were simply expendable- that's history prior to 1948, this is a long war that was planned in the 19th century.

I "got real" a long time ago and read about the origins of Zionism, it's completely revealing of your chauvinistic attitude that you actually think that you can assume the moral high ground by referring to Zionist plans before 1948.

We've reached an impasse. Shalom.

David G,

Generally I agree with your comments, but not the tone.

Mr Singer wrote;

“#csteele just doesn't want anyone to know about that. The deliberate use of the terms "Israelis" and "Palestinians" is nothing more than a form of obsessive Jew-denial and Jew-hatred. Just hope you are one of the brainwashed innocents caught up in this semantic cover up and not one of its deliberate perpetrators.”

Just for the record I find the label Jew-hater extremely offensive and have been a little surprised that the powers to be on this site have let it be bandied around as they have. In fact there are few things I could be labelled that would give me greater offence.

Yet interestingly from Mr Singer it does not have the sting it would otherwise. Why not? I've come to the conclusion it is the same reason that one doesn't take offence at the utterances of a deranged mind. There is a disassociation from reality that deserves our sympathy rather than our ire. I know it is important to challenge his articles as there are folk who may take our silence as acceptance of his poison but really there is little to really get truly upset over.

So in that vein let us dissect his latest point, that Israeli and Palestinian are not appropriate labels to use when conducting the debate.

I am an Australian, if someone was of the inclination they may well call me Anglo-Saxon, while technically accurate I would far rather be called an Australian and if that someone persisted I would set them straight. Any of the Israelis or Palestinians I have known have always identified themselves by those labels, not Jew or Arab.

Cont..

Cont..

It is only those with agendas/afflictions like Mr Singer who insists on the latter. It can only come from a deep well of racism, the kind that disturbs the mind and in the wrong hands can inflict horrors that we are all too well aware of.

That is not to say there aren't examples of racial labelling; African American or Hispanic American spring to mind, but the primary identifier would be American, however Mr Singer's determined aversion to the word 'Palestinians' speaks to a racism that should offend the majority of Australians, If instead of being a citizen he was a foreigner wishing to visit to this country I would hope our authorities would have the good sense to refuse him a visa as they have done for others thus afflicted.

I think we have something pretty special going in this country. Our generally tolerant attitudes are seen by many around the world as truly commendable and an example to others of what can be achieved. However we must be eternally vigilant and prepared to rebuke racism whenever it is given voice in our media even if it comes from the likes of Mr Singer. So if OLO wants to continue giving him a soap box I feel it is important his toxicity continues to be countered.

I thank those who have taken the time to do so in the past but ask that we attempt to be judicious with our approach and not fall into the trap of engaging with Mr Singer on his level, using his language, and on his terms since therein lies a special kind of madness.

csteele, Thanks for the shortcut about Palestine announcing its intentions to join the mine ban treaty. That is good news.

The change in Palestine's status was quickly heralded by Security Council States calling in Israeli diplomats and expressing displeasure over the E-1 expansion.

I hope to see more diplomacy in the direction of the two-state solution which was mandated by the UN.

Mr Singer, I compliment you on concocting a title for your article that draws so many people into making comments. Even though some of them were dreadfully silly.

Here is an interesting perspective on some of the points canvassed:
http://brismes2012.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/avi_raz.pdf

Dear David G.,

Referring to Mr. Singer, you wrote:

<<This is because he is a religious fanatic and nothing deters him, especially the truth.>>

Just as Mr. Singer's words, consciously or otherwise, tend to divert the justified anger against the Israeli government into anger against Jews in general (otherwise called 'anti-Semitism'), so do your above words tend, consciously or otherwise, to divert the justified anger against Mr. Singer into anger against all religious people.

I beg you not to repeat his mistake!

The above statement is wrong on three accounts:

1. Judaism is not a religion, it could better be described as a national/tribalist-movement. The reason Judaism is mistakenly thought of as a 'religion', is that it tactically and incidentally uses a set of stories and laws that look LIKE a religion, but used for the purpose of keeping the Jewish people secluded and not prone to assimilation with other nations. Jews as a group (there are always individual exceptions of course) have no interest in God per-se: they only like to praise God so long as He seems to serve their national interests.

2. Truthfulness is a religious principle - truly religious people seek the truth, they are not afraid or shy of the truth.

3. Even if Judaism were a religion, Mr. Singer does not follow it, as he comments here on the Sabbath, contrary to Jewish law.

In conclusion, David, you may call Singer a 'nationalistic fanatic' or a 'lawyer' or a 'racist' or a host of other derogatory names, but 'religious fanatic' should not be among them. Surely it was not your intention to implicate the Dalai Lama (for example) in Singer's behaviour.

csteele,

I agree with your comments. Unfortunately, members of minorities glibly use terms such as " Jew hater", "anti-Semitic", "racist" and "Islamophobe", the result is devaluation by years of misuse.

Many years ago I encountered some real Jew Haters, former members of the Nazi war machine ( one was a veteran of Stalingrad) I haven't forgotten.
Anyone who attempts to equate criticism of Israel and real anti-Semitism really needs a lesson in ethics.

Dear Yuyutsu, thanks for the following excellent observation: "Jews as a group (there are always individual exceptions of course) have no interest in God per-se: they only like to praise God so long as He seems to serve their national interests."

Your observation could apply equally well to the Americans too and several of their Allies!

Take care!

Yuyutsu,
An excellent post!! The best yet of this thread!
The first point you make is exactly why Jews have attracted so much criticism/hate over the millennia. They can't help themselves (there are always individual exceptions of course). Singer included. The inference that someone criticising Jews automatically is a Nazi is getting old. For the most part, Jews have once again overplayed their hand. Passive aggressive or lately just plain aggressive will ultimately have its consequences. Within the next generation or two, Jews will once again become a persecuted race as societies begin to resist being bled from within.
Funny how everyone must immediately cower in the corner for fear of being labelled a "Jew Hater", but Jews don't seem to stop and wonder why they attract so much fire. But then again, 'there are always individual exceptions of course'.

p.s. My hands are up Singer!

David G and Yuyutsu, your views as expressed are as gross and simplistic as Mr Singer's dichotomous criterion for identifying "Jew-haters". I wouldn't go so far as to call either of you antisemitic, but I would call you shamefully ignorant of the current of Judaic faith and its place in our European heritage.

You do yourselves no credit by conflating the goals and methods of opportunistic politicians (and others acting for an expansionist, paranoiac government), with the motives of ordinary people whose lives centre around a particular religion.

And here's another item worth reading:

London review of Books
6 December 2012
Why Israel Didn’t Win
Adam Shatz

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v34/n23/adam-shatz/why-israel-didnt-win

David
your arguments are becoming more and more raving by the post.

David the pan-arab world of the socialist dicatotors no longer exists. Nor does the desire not to be recognised as arab by the again independant peoples, non arab peoples, of Egypt, Palestine, Lebanon, soon Syria, Jordan nor Iraq. Iranians and Turks have always been Turks and Persians.

The only true arabs are Saudi Arabian arabs and perhaps a few of their descendants who migrated throughout the region and spread arabic language anmd arabic religion to the indigenous peoples of that region during the Arab colonisation (English colonisation parallel)of the region more than 10 centuries ago.

Just because middle eastern people speak arabic and adhere to a religion of Arabic origins doesn't make them or their traditional cultures arab any more than english speaking Australians and adhereing to Anglicanism would make an Australian and his culture English ...

Your whole premise is devoid of logic ... something we westerners adopted and use from our fabulously rich and diverse greek heritage.

David

your heritage is based on one book.

Under the lies of 911 done by the the Muslims,Bush had the Patriot Act at the ready to strip us of our rights.Obama brought in Preventative Detention whereby even those suspected of of terrorism can be indefinetly detained without trial or legal council.Obama also legalised the assassination of suspected terrorists by the CIA.

The latest Obama Presdential signing order was the NDAA.(National Defence Authoristion Act)whereby the US Military can arrest and detain anyone in the West without trial or legal council just like Bradley Manning.

Israel via it's association with the Rothschild Banking empire have a huge influence on the US Federal Reserve ( a private cartel of banks) who create all the money for the US Govt to function.They have nearly all Congress in their back pockets and the legal system who make all the laws.

In the West we have just a few thousand people who control our Govts under the lie of democracy.China and Russia have their own vision of a "New World Order".Their people are also enslaved.

Unless we the people become aware and demand change,the likes of David Singer will have us totally subjugated to modern serfdom that will be our worst nightmare.http://www.globalresearch.ca/

To #csteele, #Emperor Julian and #mac

I could almost believe you were one and the same person in that the following pattern is evident from our exchanges:

1. You make general and unsubstantiated comments.

2. I reply with facts to rebut your comments.

3. You don't attempt to deny or disprove the facts on which I rely or produce other facts to rebut mine. Instead you launch into a personal attack on myself.

As I have said on so many occasions - attacking the messenger and ignoring the message is to be abhorred.

Singer.
"...attacking the messenger and ignoring the message is to be abhorred."

-but this is precisely what you did to me on a previous strand by calling me a "Jew hater" in response to a post which in no way could have been interpreted in that way.

To Stan1

My reason for calling you a Jew-hater can be gleaned from many of your posts on OLO including the following:

1. "Self defence from a few home-made rockets is the given reason for their genocide."

Monday, 5 January 2009 12:01:33 PM

2. Is Israel an apartheid state? Of course it is. It is a home for the Jews, and all non-Jews are inferior.

Saturday, 9 April 2011 12:13:48 AM

3. I am currently reading 'The Invention of the Jewish People' by Shlomo Sand, which if you have not read, I thoroughly recommend. It's about nationalism and racism and demonstrates convincingly that the stream of East European Jews taking over Palestinian land and homes have no basis of claim on the country.

Thursday, 6 October 2011 8:12:59 PM

4. There is a people who lived in a place called Palestine who call themselves Palestinians. Having lived in their homes and tended their olive trees for about a thousand years or so they experience the injustice of being ethically cleansed from their homes by another people who call themselves Jews, but who lived in places like Eastern Europe but had a grandmother who was a Jew by religion. They do not want to give up their homes under these circumstances and insist that they should stay or return there and that they should be treated with justice and as equals by the newcomers.

Wednesday, 14 November 2012 3:50:04 PM

5. How long this would take David and what would happen in the meantime would depend on goodwill from both sides and that includes the Jewish side and what they teach in schools and whether they stop their ethnic cleansing and the brutality of their occupation.

Tuesday, 25 September 2012 11:18:26 PM

Do these statements sound like the words of a Jew-lover?

Who are you trying to fool - if not yourself?

I have good reason to call you a Jew-hater based on the above FACTS.

Do you have any reply in rebuttal based on FACTS?

You have real form mate.

David Singer,

Stop whinging and acknowledge that the old ploy of labelling all critics of Israel as "anti-Semitic" is well past its 'use by' date

Heavens above! So many Anglo-Celt-Australians apparently not packing up and going back to the British Isles and giving their Inner West terraces back to the Aboriginals, despite their vehement hatred of colonialism. I guess they can see the speck in Israel's eyes so much more clearly than the blinking great colonialist battering ram in their own. If you're don't have a single relative in the area, how about butting out and find a cause of your own!

Posted by David G, Friday, 7 December 2012 10:36:44 AM
“colossal mistake in allowing the formation of Israel smack in the middle of where another group of religious people had been living for centuries.”

Jews were there way before Muslims by a few centuries. Judaism is in the year 5773 and Islam year 1433

That’s that idea out the window.

There is NO Islamic/Muslim history in the area at all. The history in the area is mainly Jewish with some Christian. The Arabs had they inhabited the land woud have built something.

Arabs come from Arabia. Jews come from Judea, get it Jews/Judea, which the Jordanians when they captured it, called it the West Bank.

Check out the names of Arabs now in the region you will find them mainly to be of Egyptian and Syrian origin

Posted by halduell, Friday, 7 December 2012 12:07:15 PM
Quoting from a radial revolutionary like Jabotinsky gives you no credit unfortunately

Posted by Geoff of Perth, Friday, 7 December 2012 12:18:08 PM
Where on earth do you get the idea that “terrorizing and slaughtering innocent men, women and children in Gaza,” is going on.

Let me tell you something, since Israel withdrew unilaterally from Gaza in 2005 on average they have fired 3 rockets daily indiscriminately into Israel in the hope of killing people. Israel on the other hand fires it’s rockets at specific targets. Israel sends out text messages to every cell phone in Gaza and drops leaflets warning people to leave the area. Hamas won’t let them go.

Hamas deliberately fires rockets FROM civilian areas, so Israel will get the co-ordinates, fire missiles there and kill innocent people and Hamas happily admit to it, so does Hezbollah
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=DwtRd3ZCNBs

Part ONE
In answer to Marilyn Shepherd, Friday, 7 December 2012 3:02:55 PM

1. it was jewish terrorists who evicted 800,000 Palestinians from their land, not the other way around.

Wrong. It’s well documented. That the Arab leaders urged the Arabs to live, with the promise of return ”Once the Zionist entity had been annihilated”

It is also well documented in speeches and writing that Israel urged the people not to flee
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuGqpFxogRg&list=FLRjSAgzAZGBNafbhc-zzs2g&index=39

In 1947, there were approximately one million Arabs in the whole of western Palestine. (British figures put the number at 1,200,000; independent calculations claim 800-900,000).

Of these, the total number actually living in that part of Palestine which became Israel was, according to the British figure, 561,000.

After the end of hostilities in 1949, there were 140,000 Arabs remaining in Israel.

The total number of Arabs who left could not, therefore, mathematically have been more than some 421,000. (561 – 140 = 421)

At the end of May 1948, Faris el Khoury, the Syrian representative on the UN Security Council, estimated their number at 250,000
Emile Ghoury announced on September 6, 1948, that by the middle of June 1948, at the time of the first truce, the number of Arabs who had fled was 200,000.

"By the time the second truce began (July 17, 1948)," Emile Ghoury said, "their number had risen to 300,000"

Count Bernadotte, the UN Special Representative in Palestine, reporting on September 16, 1948, informed the United Nations that he estimated the number of Arab refugees at 360,000, including 50,000 in Israeli territory (UN Document A/1648)

PART TWO
In answer to by Marilyn Shepherd, Friday, 7 December 2012 3:02:55 PM

2. any jewish people in the West Bank are illegal squatters, something they recognised in June 1967 according to Akiva Eldar and other historians.

Quoting Akiva Eldar gives you no credit.

The Mandate for Palestine survived the demise of the League of Nations. Article 80 of the UN Charter implicitly recognises the “Mandate for Palestine” of the League of Nations.

This Mandate granted Jews the irrevocable right to settle anywhere in Palestine, the area between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea, a right unaltered in international law and valid to this day.

Jewish settlements in Judea and Samaria (i.e. the West Bank), Gaza and the whole of Jerusalem are legal.

The International Court of Justice reaffirmed the meaning and validity of Article 80 in three separate cases:
• ICJ Advisory Opinion of July 11, 1950• ICJ Advisory Opinion of June 21, 1971• ICJ Advisory Opinion of July 9, 2004:

In other words, neither the ICJ nor the UN General Assembly can arbitrarily change the status of Jewish settlement as set forth in the “Mandate for Palestine,” an international accord that has never been amended.

All of western Palestine, from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea, including the West Bank and Gaza, remains open to Jewish settlement under international law.

I am getting blown away by the ignorance that abounds here and the quoting from very unreliable sources.

I keep seeing people post about the fictitious country of Palestine.

I'm curious. Where is that?

There is/was a region by that name. It was the area of land promised by Britain to the Jews, as it was their historical homeland. Before anyone comments otherwise, there is nothing in the region that pre-dates the Jewish presence. If the Arabs had a presence in the region there would have been buildings to show for it, as there are in countries like Spain.

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/3389.htm

I can't possibly go into the history of the region as there is too much to type. If you know your Bible, you would know the Jews lived in the Land of Canaan and Judea and Samaria. The Romans renamed the area to Palestine, to rid it of it's Jewish History.

The British reneged on their promise and gave 78% of Palestine for the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan. Ergo Jordan is Palestine.

The terms Palestine and Palestinian came into being on June 4th 1967. As one well known Arab says "I went to bed an Arab and when I woke up in the morning, I was a Palestinian" They were terms coined by Russia for use as a propaganda weapon.

Singer

I have read your 5 selected quotes from my various posts over the last 4 years which you use as your basis for calling me a Jew-hater. This is very revealing and tells us a great deal about you.

Your selected quotes indicate that I believe that

1. Israel uses "defense' as a reason to attack;
2. a home for the Jews is exclusive and therefore racist;
3. Schlomo Sand, a distinguished Jewish historian, closely argues a convincing case for Zionistic nationalism and racism in his book The Invention of the Jewish People, and has a good case;
4. that Palestinians have been ethnically cleansed from their homeland;
5. that good-will is required from Israelis including ceasing indoctrination of their children, ethnic cleansing and brutal occupation.

This is correct. I do believe these things and a growing number of the world's population, indicated by the recent UN General Assembly vote, apparently believe so too.

The quotes indicate that I am a critic of what Israel, and Zionists generally, are doing. This is also the opinion of many Jews, including Orthodox Jews. If these criticisms of Israel do not apply then a One-State solution is the obvious answer to the problem. A Palestine/Israel State which is truly democratic, non-racist, offering equal civil and political rights to all its citizens.

You obviously object to this which speaks volumes about you and your ideas.

To #Stan1

I quoted your own words to support my conclusion that you are a Jew-hater.

Your response only reinforces my opinion.

Wallow in your hatred.

I have made my judgement. Others can make theirs.

Dear Stan,

Your last comment is excellent!

I still hope for a two-state solution, or better still - a three, four or five-state solution to cater for the enormous life-style differences between the people in the region.

However, David Singer is correct about you:

A Jew-hater is anyone who hates one or more Jews and surely there is at least one Jew which you hate: David Singer.

Some Jews just render a great service to anti-Semitism.

Stan1

Agree with those points as presented in your post.

1, 2,4 &5 are self evident and are supported by the history of Israel, the history of the Zionist movement, comparative demography between 1945 and 2012 and the nature of the country's government

Singer

What a pathetic response to my last post!
As you say “Others can make their(s) (judgement)”.
I can confidently stand before the world’s Judgement. Can You?
Your case that I am a Jew-hater from the evidence you provide from my words, if not thrown out as trivial and vexatious, would show you to be a myopic bigot, but I would accept a psychiatric report before you were sentenced.
You interpret my dislike of Zionism as hatred of Jews. As I have pointed out many share my dislike of Zionism, including many Jews.

Yuyutsu

It is refreshing to exchange views with open-minded people, even if we may disagree on some matters. Thank you for your support as one who searches for a solution to the misery of many people, both Arab and Jew. However, I do not hate Singer. I pity him. If I did hate him it would be because he was a Zionist, not because he was a Jew.

Mac

Thank you for your support. I don’t think anyone enjoys being called a Jew-hater when they are not, but I understand that it is a tired, yesterday tactic often used by Zionists so I do not get too upset.

Just come across this quote from Naom Chomski, an influential, educated Jew, which supports one of my claims:

By Noam Chomsky
The incursion and bombardment of Gaza is not about destroying Hamas. It is not about stopping rocket fire into Israel, it is not about achieving peace. The Israeli decision to rain death and destruction on Gaza, to use lethal weapons of the modern battlefield on a largely defenseless civilian population, is the final phase in a decades-long campaign to ethnically-cleanse Palestinians.
Israel uses sophisticated attack jets and naval vessels to bomb densely-crowded refugee camps, schools, apartment blocks, mosques, and slums to attack a population that has no air force, no air defense, no navy, no heavy weapons, no artillery units, no mechanized armor, no command in control, no army… and calls it a war. It is not a war, it is murder.
“When Israelis in the occupied territories now claim that they have to defend themselves, they are defending themselves in the sense that any military occupier has to defend itself against the population they are crushing. You can't defend yourself when you're militarily occupying someone else's land. That's not defense. Call it what you like, it's not defense.”

David Singer will no-doubt dismiss Noam Chomsky as a 'self-hating Jew'. His mindset is all hatred and perceived hatred - which he seems to thrive on - but a solution to the Palestinian problem won't be found amongst the haters.

Anyone with half a brain in their head will refute what Chomsky has to say

He has been shown time and time again that he is wrong. He is a far Left extremist agitator, who enjoys the 'fame' that people bring him

When people like David Duke admire him, it should sound alarm bells in your head.

Chomsky's name has been associated with the denial of one genocide and the minimization of another.

Chomsky knows the Holocaust took place, and he has repeatedly called it "the most fantastic outburst of collective insanity in human history." Nevertheless, Chomsky did in fact lend his reputation to the deniers of the Holocaust and participated directly in downplaying another genocide, the Cambodian massacres of 1975-78. While it is true that Chomsky himself never claimed that the Holocaust never happened, he did sign a petition in defense of Robert Faurisson, a Holocaust denier.

An alternative view:

According to the Arts and Humanities Citation Index in 1992, Chomsky was cited as a source more often than any other living scholar from 1980 to 1992, and was the eighth most cited source overall.[14][15][16][17] He has been described as a prominent cultural figure, and he was voted the "world's top public intellectual" in a 2005 poll.[18][19].

Noam Chomsky is a recipient of the Distinguished Scientific Contribution Award of the American Psychological Association, the Kyoto Prize in Basic Sciences, the Helmholtz Medal, the Dorothy Eldridge Peacemaker Award, the Ben Franklin Medal in Computer and Cognitive Science, numerous honorary fellowships and degrees and many other honors. His significant published works in the field of linguistics include Current Issues in Linguistic Theory (1964), The Sound Pattern of English (with Morris Halle, 1968), Language and Mind (1972), Studies on Semantics in Generative Grammar (1972), The Logical Structure of Linguistic Theory (1975), andKnowledge of Language (1986).

But Zionists don't like him.

SF,

"...he did sign a petition in defense of Robert Faurisson, a Holocaust denier"

So what? You've probably missed the point entirely, wasn't Chomsky defending the right to
free speech?

I'd hardly say that agreeing with a Holocaust denier by signing a petition has anything to do with free speech.

If what I read here is what passes as free speech then I am against it.

I am truly appalled by the racism and antisemitism I read here.

SF

Zionism = racism

The Arab nations are represented by 21 separate countries. There is only one Jewish nation, a tiny country, Israel. It is but 73% Jewish, next Muslim, other religions make up the rest. One in four persons is not Jewish. Where is such a ratio of peoples in other parts of the world?

The combined territories of Arab countries is 650 fold greater than Israel. Arab population is 50 fold greater than Israel. Arab states combined 13,486,861 sq mls., Israel 20,770 sq mls. We have stations larger than Israel.

Arab states are effectively Judenfrei.

The desire for Israel's collapse has nothing to do with conflict.

Most of the Arab states are artificial, having been drawn up with paper and pencil by colonial interests. This witnessed disparate groups being forced to live with each other. There has been more bloodshed and death between, and within Arab states, than has occurred between these states and Israel. None have suggested that these Arab states be dismantled. When bloodshed erupts, there is nary a sigh from these very same people screaming against Israel.

Whatever arguments put forward against Israel, it is apparent that these writers want to see the end of Israel's existence. In other words, the entire territory, 13,507,631 sq mls, Judenfrei, Why?

Hitler could not have argued more strongly. Remember the photograph of the Grand Mulfti and Hitler greeting each other. When people adopt the same principle as held by the Nazis, it is difficult not to see them as fellow-travelers. People readily identify socialists, conservatives and utopian, etc. by the beliefs/principles they promote.

Like all countries, Israel is not perfect and is open to criticism, but the hatred vented against Israel is suggestive of a different agenda.

Like Nazism, lies are told, slogans are hurled ... repeatedly, ad nauseum. Ah … Goebbels! There is no effort to verify facts.

How can people unquestionably accept Palestinian propaganda when there is such a wealth of information accessible through the internet? Only those who already have some prejudice … and find a source to support this. Or are they extremely gullible looking for a cause?

Well said Danielle, they won't believe because they are antisemites.

SAY WHAT? ANTI-SEMITES? WHO, US ANTI-ZIONISTS?
By Steven Plaut

Say What? Anti-Semites? Who, us anti-Zionists? US? We have nothing against Jews as such. We just hate Zionism and Zionists. We think Israel does not have a right to exist. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such. Heavens to Mergatroyd. Marx Forbid. We are humanists. Progressives. Peace lovers.

Anti-Semitism is the hatred of Jews. Anti-Zionism is opposition to Zionism and Israeli policies. The two have nothing to do with one another. Venus and Mars. Night and Day. Trust us.
Sure, we think the only country on the earth that must be annihilated is Israel. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

Sure, we think that the only children on earth whose being blown up is ok if it serves a good cause are Jewish children. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

Sure we think that if Palestinians have legitimate grievances this entitles them to mass murder Jews. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

Naturally, we think that the only people on earth who should never be allowed to exercise the right of self-defense are the Jews. Jews should only resolve the aggression against them through capitulation, never through self-defense. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

We only denounce racist apartheid in the one country in the Middle East that is NOT a racist apartheid country. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

We refuse to acknowledge the Jews as a people, and think they are only a religion. We do not have an answer to how people who do NOT practice the Jewish religion can still be regarded as Jews. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

Read on
http://www.freeman.org/m_online/oct03/plaut1.htm

If they were truly concerned about human right issues, surely we have our indigenous peoples to consider. But I surmise that the Palestinian issue is far safer and far more distant, and thereby more comfortable, than issues in our own backyard.

In 2005 Israel withdraw entirely from Gaza. Instead of seeing Israel's departure as a good-will gesture, a contribution to peace, Hamas began their rocket attacks into Israel. Over 2,000 rockets this year alone.

No wonder Israel is hesitant to withdraw its security from the West Bank. This is a rational decision, a decision that would be made by any country in Israel's position.

Any group firing rockets, and constantly so, into another territory would expect retaliation. Israel has retaliated. More Gazans died than Israelis. Apparently, to make this conflict fair, there must be an equal number of Israeli deaths.

Israel has bomb shelters, school desks reinforced with iron, and systems of air-sirens. Without these, many, many Israelis would have died in Hamas rocket attacks.

Hamas has waged seven years of ongoing rocket attacks into Israel. Those of rational mind would think it strange that during this time Hamas built not one bomb shelter, nor set up air-raid sirens for the populace in Gaza. This is especially curious, as Israel always forewarn by leaflets and phone calls into target territory of impending attacks.

Why no bomb-shelters, bunkers or at least air-raid sirens? This can only be seen as deliberate - a cynical means to use death and injury of the populace to obtain more sympathy for the Hamas cause and, importantly, propaganda against Israel.

Those who followed the Palestinian civil war and the atrocities committed against fellow-countrymen would identify such thinking as par for the course. In the first ten months of that war, more Palestinians had been killed by other Palestinians than in conflicts with Israel.

As to the much condemned blockade of goods into Gaza, this appears to be much flawed. Hamas have no problems getting stockpiles of rockets, armaments through it.

They hate Israel and get their facts are wrong because they post from questionable sources.

Israel withdrew unilaterally from Gaza for peace after the rise of Hamas in 2005. From 1967 when Israel took Gaza from Egypt until 2000/2001 life in Gaza was good Jews and Arabs lived together no problem, like they do in Israel now.

Since Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip in 2005, terrorists have fired more than 8,000 rockets into Israel. Over one million Israelis are currently living under threat of rocket attacks. In 2011 alone, 630 rockets from Gaza hit Israeli towns. That’s an even higher number than in 2010, when 231 rockets hit Israel. Since 2001, more than 12,800 rockets and mortars, an average of 3 attacks every single day, have landed in Israel.

It’s funny really. The last time it looked as if Abbas might make a peace deal with Israel and it looked like Israeli Arabs would have to be under the authority of the PLO, there was a mad rush for Israeli citizenship. They know they have the right to vote, the right to free schooling, the right to free health care and more.

We know there are no bomb shelters in Gaza, because Hamas won’t allow it. Instead they fire their rockets from residential areas and when Israel drops leaflets and sends text messages for the civilian population to move from the area, Hamas won’t let them

It’s well documented there are no shortages of anything in Gaza except concrete because that is used for tunnels. There are 5 star hotels, spa/health resorts, huge house, night club and more.

They also do not understand that when they single out Israel as the only county in the ME for condemnation, that is antisemitism. That folks is the EU definition of antisemitism. Antisemitism is racism, as Jews are a racially ethnic group.
I think this is my last post for the day too. Stupid rule !!