I'm almost certain you are wrong David!
I think the extensive involvement of the wider Muslim Brotherhood, as a peacemaking-peacekeeping element, paints a very different scenario, and finally paints the prospect of a genuine settlement and an end of hostilities, as actually achievable!
And just who wouldn't want to see a finally nutted out two state solution, and genuine self sustaining peace, as the now, most likely and logical outcome; even if that then means, the end of any further Israeli expansion into occupied Palestinian territory.
A totalitarian Iran had very few friends in the middle East, and even fewer, since the dawn of the Arab spring!
And there's an old Arab saying, my enemies enemies are also my friends!
Rhrosty.

Do you think the IDF will want to expose to the world again that they are a bunch of cowards and psychos who've just had their butts kicked, Singer?

The IDF are so brave when they hide in their warships, tanks, Apache helicopters, F-16s and F-18s, aren't they and rain missiles and shells down on women and children who have no defenses or army? They've been known to use snipers to kill kids and bulldozers to run down protesters?

The IDF couldn't stop the rockets and they couldn't shoot them all down and then a bus got blown up in Tel Aviv. Israel turned and ran!

Things are changing in the Middle East, Singer. The iron rule of Israel is coming to an end as is the bullying and meddling of the U.S.

We'll watch it all happening, you and me, Singer.

I'll be happy. You won't! But justice will finally come to the Palestinians.

Having just read this article and the first two responses, it is clear that at least the three writers are in complete disagreement as to what will happen next.

It will come as no shock to readers of OLO's Forum that I generally do not support David Singer and now is no exception, however I suggest that those with opinions on the subject of peace in the Middle East consider for a moment...

Reconciliation.
There can be no peace without reconciliation. Suspension of hostilities, perhaps, but not peace.

Balanced rights of citizens.
What will peace look like? I expect that mutual recognition of rights and a balance of these rights will feature. For example, the rights to representation in the UN and the rights to own and to use land and buildings. Some kind of equivalence regarding access to food, shelter, security, education, employment... maybe not immediately, but eventually.

Compromise.
This will require compromise, both of principle and physically. Compromise was once explained to me by a very experienced senior policeman, in relation to a dispute I was embroiled in over someone else's cattle grazing on my land uninvited. It is as follows.

"Compromise is reached when everybody hurts as much as each other."

That leads to my final point, which is that peace between Palestine and Israel will involve both nations sharing the pain, for the sake of peace. It can not come through a balance of terror. It can not be imposed unilaterally or by external nations. It must inevitably involve the pains of real compromise and reconciliation as Israel and Palestine, together, build peace.

Like David, I fear that that day is not imminent. Unlike David, I suggest that the time has come for Israel to reconsider their pathway towards peace.

David, what compromises do you consider to be appropriate for Israel's citizens to accept as a price of peace? What shape will the eventual reconciliation take? Or, is any compromise a sign of weakness and thus not to be considered? In which case, you are not seeking peace.

John. I would venture to suggest that the acceptance, by Israel, of 98% of Palestinian demands, as tabled by Yasser Arafat, would constitute a fair and reasonable compromise.

Rhrosty. Like you I would hope that David is wrong. Unfortunately, I think he may be right, for the very reasons he has elucidated in this (all be it necessarily) hastily cobbled together document.

I think it is good that the French were told to 'butt out' of the process and an Egypt as intermediary is to take responsibility for its implementation and maintenance.

However, with the latest move by the Egyptian Prime Minister re-writing the constitution
giving himself supreme authority over all, including the judiciary, the notion of Egypt being a just 'ombudsman' in this situation is fantasy.

David G. Be a good boy and run out and play whilst the adults are talking ok?

What the Zionists want is a Jewish homeland.
What the Palestinians want is THEIR homeland.

Well, I can name a Jewish homeland. A homeland where Jews have full citizenship rights along with the rest of the population - no superior rights, no inferior rights. It's called Australia.

There are dozens and dozens of such homelands. America. Britain. France. Norway. Italy. The list goes on and on. Far more than enough for the world's 14 million Jews. One, if the Zionists played their cards rightly, could also be Palestine - a secular, democratic, non-racist Palestine stretching from the Mediterranean Sea to the River Jordan.

If the Zionists DON'T play their cards rightly in the land they have stolen, their options will shrink as the oil runs out so America doesn't need their disruptive services, and the non-Jewish population of Palestine continues to grow - the dreaded "population bomb". They could even end up with an Islamic republic.

Oh, and their nukes won't do them any good. Palestine is too cramped, with Israel in the middle of it.

It's their call.

Strumpet, when you next get your mother to write an infantile comment for you, tell her to ensure that you don't make a fool of yourself.

"Argue not with fools, frauds and fanatics. Seek better companions!"

Cheers!

One can only hope that mature adults are the ones seeking to end the conflict?
Were we to see myopically focused juveniles like EJ or DG at the negotiating table, peace could be shelved for a million or more years, and millions more women and children, would be asked to pay the ultimate price.
EJ and DG, it's not a football game boys, where one side eventually wins, or scores more goals!
Nobody wins!
And even winning always is accompanied by a price!
Sure, the Israelis have superior weaponry for now!
Suppose they used their current superiority, to simply roll-over and eliminate all opposition?
Would that then bring the longed for final peace; or just a whole host, of new and vastly better armed enemies!?
And make no mistake, modern nuclear weapons are indeed an viable option; even for Israel, albeit, they simply don't and can't discriminate between combatant and unarmed civilians!
Let the "GAME" and the old as time, blood-letting eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, revenge and reprisals continue, until a nuclear armed Iran invites itself into the conflict, and finishes it, with a couple of nukes dropped on Israel?
Will that end the conflict, or simply and finally give the west, a justifiable reason to enter the conflict and wipe out all opposition, with their own nuclear arsenal?
And who would really care if all the the highly volatile Middle East was turned into a sea of vitrified glass; and, free oil for the victors?
Not the Russians or the Chinese, who as pragmatists, would prefer to share in the spoils, rather than the fate of the eternally conflicted, Middle East?
Ask any of the survivors of Hiroshima or Nagasaki, if they had any stomach for any future conflict, after the bomb?
To be sure, there are weapons that could destroy the entire Middle East;or indeed, whole world!
And believe me, I know that there are some very powerful people, willing to use them, rather than be enslaved by, or live under the yoke of "Islamic" fanaticism!?
Rhrosty.

Promprete wrote that 98% of Arafat's list has been agreed to by Israel.

Did that list include fixed and fair borders?
Rights for Palestininans who live in Israel?
Security from threats of overwhelming military invasion at the whim of Palestine's neighbour?
Rights to trade and to control their borders?
Cessation of civilian encroachment onto Palestinian lands?
Guaranteed access cross the border for farmers to tend their crops and herds and for employees top get to work?

That's more than half a dozen contenders which are clearly on the "not agreed 2%" list, for starters.

I very much doubt that Arafat's list included a further 300 issues, all of which have been agreed and adhered to by Israel. Besides which, Arafat has left the negotiating table, has he not? Why bring his name into this now?

Pomprete's numeracy and his his idea of what constitutes fair and reasonable compromise are open to question. Compromise still involves both sides hurting the same amount. 100-to-1 death tolls are not evidence of compromise. I suggest that, until that ratio has been reduced to unity, there is still work to be done.

"Were we to see myopically focused juveniles like EJ or DG at the negotiating table, peace could be shelved for a million or more years," says Rhrosty.

Rhrosty, I occasionally read your ponderous, pontificating, almost unintelligible comments but, until I read the above insult, I never had the inclination to respond to you. I will this one time.

As I've indicated elsewhere, when insults are used then we know that the people who use them haven't got the intellect or maturity to debate the issues but have to depend on infantile name-calling as well as recycling the mind-deadening, divisive propaganda they have been taught from birth.

I will continue to push my anti-war, pro-peace barrow and keep hoping that warmongers like you become extinct before nuclear war begins, one that will be started by the U.S. and/or Israel.

I've been trying to figure out just what Rhosty is looking for, and danged if I can.

Not justice - e.g. a state in which people have equal democratic rights and what is stolen is restored. Strike that one, implies Rhosty. A juvenile football game apparently.

Not an end to racist injustice as in South Africa? Nup, doesn't qualify - Jews are more "special" than Boers, and MUCH more "special" than Arabs.

Not a nuclear war? Hell no - and no end to nuclear blackmail either: pursue justice and we'll blow the place to hell. The ultimate suicide bombers.

No, Rhosty seems to be after “compromise”. As between the robber and the robbed.

We've seen endless compromise - the Zionists grab, the Palestinians yield. Peace processes, Oslo deals etc. tolerating a racist, expansionist state, leaving five million exiles banged up in refugee camps and shrinking Bantustans.

The most powerful weapon the Zionists have is world public acceptance in the wake of the Holocaust of mass murders by Europeans, not Palestinians. And thankfully the world is awakening to the disconnect. (Compare now with the 1950s when few actually knew what Israel really was.) Israel will progressively lose acceptance as its very legitimacy is challenged, by relentlessly confronting lies with truth, arrogance with justice. The basic truth that Zionists can’t take is that NO ethnic group is more “special” than the rest of us.

Added to loss of public acceptance is loss of viability as the “population bomb” continues to build and American dependence on the Middle East oil declines. As I wrote above, the Zionists have two choices – a soft landing and a hard landing. It’s their choice. And ours.

It is not often I find myself agreeing with Mr Singer but on the basic premise that the 'Gaza conflict (is) sure to resume' the only rational response is 'Of Course!'.

The question is how soon and the answer lies in looking to who has gained politically and who has lost because of the most recent hostilities.

I think sooner rather than later.

Many commentators and politicians within Israel have condemned Netanyahu for conducting the killings with Gaza with one eye firmly on the ballot box. It was the case with operation Cast Lead before the previous election and the trend has continued. I think their opinion has strong validity therefore we need to ask has Netanyahu got what he wanted? Unfortunately for him and the Palestinians the answer is no.

Having called an early election in October a confrontation with Hamas was always front and centre of the playbook but his electoral fortunes have waned and the effort so far looks like costing Likud a number of seats, some of them instead going to the defence minister Barak who has seen his stocks rise.

“Maariv newspaper's survey said the newly-merged party of Mr Netanyahu and foreign minister Avigdor Lieberman, Likud Beitenu, would take 37 of the 120 parliamentary seats up for grabs on January 22.
A poll before the conflict suggested they would win 43. The two factions presently hold 42 seats combined.”
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-11-23/gunfire-kills-palestinian-on-gaza-border/4389872

Recent polls show less than a third of Israeli's supported the ceasefire and nearly half opposed it. These figures will be hard to ignore.

Facts on the ground seem to show the 'niggle' has started already. Two days into the ceasefire and the Israelis have opened fire on Palestinians on the Gaza border wounding 9 and killing one. If this had happened to Israeli soldiers there would have been a far more dramatic response. One can only applaud Hamas in this instant for not rising to the bait.

The only realistic scenario is that these provocations will continue to escalate from Israel until the truce is broken.

I would love to be proven wrong.

Dear Julian,

<<Palestine - a secular, democratic, non-racist Palestine stretching from the Mediterranean Sea to the River Jordan>>

What self-respecting Muslim would ever agree to that?!

while 'all'..attempts at peace..is lordable..
and david singers post is full of contradictions..[too many to point out..but his abuseive use of all..surfices..i was willing to let it go..so wanderd off to read todays 'a course in miracles'

it was relitive to this topic..so i came back..to post a link to it
http://www.celestinevision.com/celestine/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3416&sid=3ecfc94886b34d7a4eb6ac9c2b6bea55

as it reflects a grownup attitude..we may be seeing..in the wholly holy lands..

quote..>>""I choose..the second place..to gain the first.""

What seems to be the second place is first,
for all things we perceive are upside down until we listen to the Voice for God.

It seems that we will gain autonomy
but by our striving to be separate, and that our independence from the rest of God's creation is the way in which salvation is obtained.

edited

To join with His is but to find our own.
And since our will is His,..it is to Him that we must go to recognize our will.

There is no will but Yours.

And I am glad that nothing I imagine contradicts what You would have me be.
It is Your Will that I be wholly safe, eternally at peace.
And happily I share that Will which You, my Father, gave as part of me.""...

i would add my doudts to mr singers doudts
but heck the messiah got it spot on..even to the timming.

so like many bite my tongue..
hoping..trusting..we finally have grown mature...but*..still feel it was only allways meant to be a quick..cast lead type op..to the big one..nuking iran..but..we shall see.

david'$

bite your tongue..see that at the pre-dawn..
a black thread and a white thread..BOTH*..look the same shade of gray...

but when the light comes..
their true hue/cry..is revealed?

To #Rhrosty

I believe the three state solution (an independent Arab state in the West Bank between Israel and Jordan) is dead and buried.

The two state solution - Jordan and Israel - dividing sovereignty of the West Bank between their respective States still is feasible.

Indeed as I have written previously there are signs that Jordan is readying to replace the Palestinian Authority as Israel's negotiating partner on the future of the West Bank.

To #JohnBennetts

Israel made two substantive offers in 2000/2001 and 2008 which were rejected and involved Israel ceding its claims to more than 90% of the West Bank and 100% of Gaza.

Whilst the PLO demands 100% of both territories and a capital in East Jerusalem involving the removal of 600000 Jews living in these areas - the prospects of any settlement with the PLO is hopeless.

On the other hand a settlement with Jordan where no one - Jew or Arab - would have to leave his present home - remains a last hope for ending the Jewish-Arab conflict.

The stumbling block in negotiations with the PLO was not on the question of the issues you raised in your response to #Rhrosty. It was the PLO insistence on the following:
1. The right of return of millions of Palestinian Arabs to Israel
2. The uprooting of all Jews living in the West Bank and East Jerusalem

Neither should be an issue in negotiations between Israel and Jordan to draw a new international border between their respective States.

To #csteele

Nice to know we can at least agree on some things.

But it is clear that the cease fire Understanding was breached by the hundreds of people who entered the 300 metre buffer zone and refused to withdraw when warned by Israeli soldiers to do so.

The fact that Gazan police removed them after consultation with Egypt indicates that their premature enthusiasm in entering such territory was the catalyst for the tragic events that followed.

anyhow some more backgrounds
davids confusion is a sign

http://www.activistpost.com/2012/11/confusion-surrounds-ceasefire-talks.html

if this is how it is in uk
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01n11x6
then how much worse in israel/gaza?

In true zionist spirit, Israel is doing its darndest
to make sure the ceasefire between itself and Gaza does not last.
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2012/11/25/despite-israeli-violations-ceasefire-continues-to-stand/

thus its time for those who love god..to try to love
>>his whole creation..[or be revealed liars/decievers/satanist.
http://www.celestinevision.com/celestine/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3417&sid=4377eaee493376820ee92db88dd0eecc

There will be no repeat of Operation Cast Lead,..the previous invasion of Gaza.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/9694473/Gaza-Benjamin-Netanyahu-faces-up-to-the-new-reality-of-a-changed-political-landscape.html

Mr Netanyahu has allowed diplomacy to take precedence,
even though both his aerial bombardment of Gaza and his subsequent negotiations with Hamas have given his foes the international legitimacy they have long craved.

SUBLIMINAL ZIONISM

http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2012/11/25/subliminal-zionism/


The message you hear from the news media in the West is one sided … in fact, in most cases, the other side does not exist.

I am speaking specifically about news reports from the Middle East, all pro Israel despite whatever atrocities which might have been committed by them. Palestine is assumed to be the bad guy no matter what the situation might be.
*
The recent atrocities committed against the people of Gaza are the latest example of what the Western News Media wants you to see or hear. You mustn’t allow this to continue. Demand to know the truth!

what was the war REALLY for?
USA Cancels the 2012 Nuclear Security Summit
http://www.roitov.com/articles/nuke.htm

US State Department spokeswoman Victoria Nuland said in a statement released Friday, November 23, 2012, that the US "regrets to announce that the conference [The 2012 Nuclear Security Summit] cannot be convened because of present conditions in the Middle East and the fact that states in the region have not reached agreement on acceptable conditions for a conference."

the fruit of war
http://www.thecommonsenseshow.com/2012/11/24/history-speaks-will-america-listen/


"Acceptable conditions" = "Nobody is allowed to mention Israel's nuclear weapons."

what has israel [ALL*..settlers]..lol..gained?
http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=541668

whiners? and looser$
http://www.redressonline.com/2012/11/the-gaza-blitz-winners-and-losers/

Pillar/Impotence

http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/pillar-of-impotence.html


The fear..of impotence..is actually..the unconscious nightmare..what everyone..around you..is saying..lol..behind your back..

Israelis..not just now..*admitting their impotence..even..to themselves,..unaware..of now being seen as a bunch of arrogant,cowardly and helpless barbarians.

By the time..it becom's clear..that the Pillar*
wasn’t even semi-erect..and the Cloud..couldn’t cover even that embarrassing truth,..!*!*!..Netanyahu,Barak and Liebermann as well as the whole of Israeli society realised..that nothing was left..of Israel’s power of deterrence-via fear/spin/lies/bombs..for the Palestinians
have lost their fear.

Israel Working to Silence
the International Press in Gaza
http://www.globalresearch.ca/israel-working-to-silence-the-international-press-in-gaza/5312230?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=israel-working-to-silence-the-international-press-in-gaza


Israel on Sunday of targeting journalists in the Gaza Strip,..after Israeli warplanes..bombed two media buildings.

Israel is..trying to silence the press..and its crimes against journalists must not go unpunished.”..by their own*

statement,.“strongly condemn the..Israeli aggression in the Gaza Strip..and the direct targeting of a number of journalists and media institutions.” Palestinian Center for Human Rights said 10 journalists..and media professionals were hurt in the bombings

so much lost..for so little gained
The eight-day Israeli assault..on Gaza
has resulted in $300 million in ..*economic damage$$
http://rt.com/news/gaza-israel-economic-damage-508/

You can always tell..when members of the Israeli ministry of defense are lying:..open/mouths...and words..come out of them.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israels-shame-children-the-true-victims-8348398.html

there is no such thing as..a "surgical strike".

flash foward..via a flashback
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t_LxpCY2G8&feature=youtu.be

how was peace..established so fast?
http://rt.com/usa/news/ceasefire-us-sinai-israel-435/

just to prove there is a god..live media slipups
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=PG7IwwFQpcg

http://www.globalresearch.ca/when-propaganda-masquarades-as-news/5312677

the Visible Darkness
of the Unyielding Night.

live links at link
http://www.smoking-mirrors.com/2012/11/the-visible-darkness-of-unyielding-night.html

If you can't fight/Satanic monsters like this,
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/2012/11/24/israel-developing-next-generation-missile-defense-system-with-help-from-raytheon/kikI4i118yW78EYWjivYzH/story.html

then you will never master..nor control monsters like this
[look inside of you...]

That's just how it is.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/explosion-rocks-egyptian-intelligence-building-in-rafah/?

I can't be responsible for people..not getting things.
http://chasvoice.blogspot.com/2012/11/israeli-war-crimes-against-palestine.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+blogspot%2FhRRzR+%28Charleston+Voice%29

True,..there are things I don't get either
but some things I do get and you could get them too,..if you sought the god of life/living/love/logic..not death/destraction/destruction/dissinfo/war-mongers/..'t'-errorists=?


http://www.veteransnewsnow.com/2012/11/25/who-are-the-terrorists-now/

who knows..god so loves a repentant sinner
with the huge proviso..'GO...and sin no more*

but we are all singering..off a different 'him' sheet?
yet all life..all logic..all love..is of him and for him..

lets give 2013..back to..>>>him..!*!

[whoever you concieve.."him" to be..
if not love..then destroy us all now!..

if god isn't..the light
revealing..love/life/logic..im over being nice.]

the only thing that can keep the peace
is truth..
http://refreshingnews99.blogspot.in/2012/11/russian-navy-deploys-6-warships-off.html

further notings..
http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/11/23/kafka-in-israel/
http://www.blacklistednews.com/Why_So_Secretive%3F_The_Trans-Pacific_Partnership_as_Global_Coup/22749/0/38/38/Y/M.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/25/obama-drone-warfare-rulebook
http://truthjihad.com/news/?p=197

dont forget to read the extensive cliff notes
http://blog.ninapaley.com/2012/10/01/this-land-is-mine/

noting the exumation of arrafact today

..lets keep putting the facts out there..so the errors can be revealed..in the reasoning..or the spun spin/spin spun[web woven]lies spun[no pun intended]

FLASHBACK - Yosef: Gentiles exist only to serve Jews
http://www.jpost.com/JewishWorld/JewishNews/Article.aspx?id=191782


The sole purpose of non-Jews is to serve Jews, according to Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, the head of Shas’s Council of Torah Sages and a senior Sephardi adjudicator.

“Goyim were born only to serve us. Without that, they have no place in the world – only to serve the People of Israel,” he said in his weekly Saturday night sermon on the laws regarding the actions non-Jews are permitted to perform on Shabbat.

According to Yosef, the lives of non-Jews in Israel are safeguarded by divinity, to prevent losses to Jews.


"The most shameful day in the history of the Jewish people"

http://www.brasschecktv.com/videos/israelpalestine/a-racist-terrorist-state.html

1. Why a "two state" solution is a fantasy that will never happen

2. Why one state - with democracy for all - is the solution just as Switzerland and Belgium managed to pull disparate nations together

3. How Israel rules its territory and why, given how it operates today, it is a racist, terrorist state

4. "The most shameful day in the history of the Jewish people" - and it took place not long ago

5. Why Israel will never attack Iran (only an idiotic US can be drawn into such a misadventure)

inbed with the goyum
http://www.activistpost.com/2012/11/supporters-of-israel-seek-to-ban-hamas.html

Abbas’ longtime collaboration with Israel.
He sold out long ago for whatever benefits he derives.

He’s Israel’s enforcer. He ill serves and insults Palestinians. His presidency is illegitimate. Israel rigged his 2005 election.

In January 2009, his term expired.
what when did he know of operation 'cloud piles'
http://www.globalresearch.ca/abbas-collaborating-with-the-enemy/5312919