I am surprised to read David Singer advocating turning the clock back 63 years and re-uniting parts of the Middle East within the artificial "...boundaries [Palestine] had during the British Mandate".

Clearly, this won't work.

Israel is in the way.

The biggest fairy tale that has ever been written is that the Jewish people are entitled to the land where Palestine once existed.

Never have a people come back after 2,000 plus years and laid claim to land upon which other people had been living for a thousand plus years.

Never have a people been as cruel as the transplanted Jews are except perhaps one group but we don't want to mention them, do we?

As you read this, the IDF is again bombing and shelling the Gazans and killing men, women and kids. The leader of these killers, Netanyahu, is talking about escalating the killing using American supplied weaponry.

It is not inconceivable that the residents of Gaza will be pushed into the Mediterranean which would leave only the remaining Palestinians in the West Bank to get rid of.

At the same time, Netanyahu is considering nuking Iran which could well ignite WW3.

And in the midst of all this, the Singer comes along with another one of his red herrings!

Jesus wept!

There is a people who lived in a place called Palestine who call themselves Palestinians. Having lived in their homes and tended their olive trees for about a thousand years or so they experience the injustice of being ethically cleansed from their homes by another people who call themselves Jews, but who lived in places like Eastern Europe but had a grandmother who was a Jew by religion. They do not want to give up their homes under these circumstances and insist that they should stay or return there and that they should be treated with justice and as equals by the newcomers.

That should have read "ethnically cleansed".

This drumbeat from racist Israel, through its spokesmen, calling for the Bantustans to be joined to Jordan is getting as insistent as the drumbeat for aggression against Iran in case it makes nukes to defend itself against a nuclear-armed enemy.

The constant repetition of the Jordan theme has a sound of desperation. The desperation is well founded. America won’t need the Middle East for oil for ever, and the population bomb surrounding the ethnically cleansed enclave continues to grow. In due course the Zionists will be abandoned by their major allies and driven to accept the return of the exiles to recover their own homeland. What arrangements the resulting Palestinian nation makes with Jordan is up to its and Jordan’s people.

David Singer presented an offer to hand the West Bank to Jordan. Yes, I realise it's incomplete, eventually it will have to be ALL of the West Bank, including Eastern Jerusalem, but at least it's a start.

So many of the contributors here don't like Israel - that's OK, but what possible objection can you have to handing the West Bank over to Jordan? Would the Palestinians be any worse off? At least they will come under the rule of their Arab brothers, then nothing prevents them from demanding independence from Jordan the day after if they still so wish.

The only reason I see, for those who care for Palestinians and their welfare, to oppose this transfer of the West Bank to Jordan, is the worry over the loss of pretexts to destroy Israel.

David G:

“The biggest fairy tale that has ever been written is that the Jewish people are entitled to the land where Palestine once existed”

Please enlighten me: where exactly did the country of Palestine once exist? When did it exist there?

“Never have a people come back after 2,000 plus years and laid claim to land upon which other people had been living for a thousand plus years”

Are you aware that there has been a constant Jewish presence in the area for thousands of years? If they were indeed “transplanted” there, as you say, it happened several thousand years ago.

“As you read this, the IDF is again bombing and shelling…”

Let’s conveniently ignore the fact that this shelling is in response to the barrage of missiles from Gaza into Israel that has been going on for years and does not show any signs of abating. You do not seem to be complaining about Hamas targeting Israeli civilians for years on end.

“At the same time, Netanyahu is considering nuking Iran…”

I must have missed this news article. Can you show me when Netanyahu threatened to nuke Iran?

AVW, you forgot to mention the fact that the Palestinian people have been under occupation since...1947 I think it was.

You also forgot to mention that a people under occupation have the right to fight against that occupation by whatever means they have.

You also didn't say that the Israelis have the forth strongest army in the world whereas the Palestinians have no army, navy or air force.

You also didn't tell us that the Israelis have a new protection against the amateurish, directionless Palestinian rockets, one called iron-dome which was given to them by the Americans.

There is no equivalence here at all. Israel is the aggressor and the occupier. The Palestinians are the victims!

Dear David G.,

Iron Dome was developed and built in Israel and has no American connection. In the last day, over 150 rockets (so far) were fired at Israel, only 35 of which were downed by Iron Dome. One of those rockets has hit 2 adjacent apartments, killing 3 inside and wounding another 9, two of them babies. Another rocket damaged a school, but fortunately all study was suspended earlier so no one was hurt. There were also injuries from broken glass while other rockets "only" hit cars, a vacant house, an industrial plant, a power pole and chicken sheds.

While some of the rockets are amateurish and directionless, this is no longer always the case. The rockets shot today include Iranian-made Fajr rockets, 333mm in diameter, carrying 175 Kilograms of explosives up to a distance of 75 kilometers. Those Fajr rockets got there because the blockade was recently not tight enough.

What would YOU do if those rockets were falling on YOUR city?

Yuyutsu,

Actually, while the design and building of the original Iron Dome (ID) was undertaken solely by Israel, after the second one Israel sought funding. This was pledged and provided by the US:

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Dome

<<Subsequently, funding for an additional eight Iron Dome systems - along with funding for a supply of interception missiles - is currently being provided by the United States, with two of these additional systems having been delivered by 2012. Funding for the production and deployment of these additional Iron Dome batteries and interceptor missiles was approved by the United States Congress, after being requested by President Obama in 2010. In May 2010, the White House announced that U.S. President Barack Obama would seek $205 million from U.S. Congress in his 2011 budget, to spur the production and deployment of additional Iron Dome batteries.

In exchange for the second tranche of deployment funding, the United States is asking Israel for access to, and a stake in, elements of the system's technology. On 17 May 2012, when Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak met with U.S. Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta, the Pentagon issued a statement from the Secretary saying in part, "I was pleased to inform Minister Barak that the President supports Israel’s Iron Dome system and directed me to fill the $70 million in assistance for Iron Dome that Minister Barak indicated to me Israel needs this fiscal year." "

On 18 May 2012, the United States House of Representatives passed the Fiscal Year 2013 National Defense Authorization Act, H.R. 4310, with $680 million for Iron Dome in Section 227. The report accompanying the bill, 112-479, also calls for technology sharing as well as co-production of Iron Dome in the United States in light of the nearly $900 million invested in the system since 2011. " >>

There is, of course, much more and it is interesting reading.

What would I do if rockets were falling on my city, asks yuyutsu?

Well, the first thing I would do is to stop the occupation of the people who were firing the rockets.

Then I would give the occupied people their land back, the land which I had stolen, and allow them to form their own sovereign nation.

Then I would pay them massive reparation for the decades of horror and genocide and war crimes which my nation had inflicted upon them.

That's what I would do, yuyutsu, but then I'm not a religious fanatic.

David:

“…you forgot to mention the fact that the Palestinian people have been under occupation since...1947 I think it was”

The year you are looking for is probably 1948. Yet you seem to forget that for the first 2 decades of this occupation, the occupiers of the West Bank and Gaza were Jordan and Egypt. You seem to also forget that There is no Israeli presence in Gaza, and there hasn’t been for years.

“You also didn't say that the Israelis have the fo[u]rth strongest army in the world whereas the Palestinians have no army, navy or air force”

I have already addressed the 4th largest army myth in another recent thread (http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=14348). But even if it was true, does this mean that Hamas can freely launch rockets at Israel, as long as their forces are weaker?

“…the first thing I would do is to stop the occupation of the people who were firing the rockets… I would give the occupied people their land back”
“…I would pay them massive reparation…”

Israeli forces have not been occupying Gaza for many years.
The reparation idea has been tried before (Camp David 2000 Accords) but was rejected by the Palestinians.

You are right, there is no equivalence here at all. Hamas is an oppressive, violent movement, committed to the destruction of Israel Their rockets exclusively target Israeli civilians, instead of legitimate Israeli military targets. Israel is a democratic country, forced to respond to the constant terror attacks, targeting military leaders and military installations.

Dear David,

The proposal that Jordan absorb the West Bank is unrealistic for several reasons.

1. Jordan has had a confrontation with the Palestinians in the past & would not want more of them.

2. Israel does not want to absorb the Palestinians by giving them the right of return because Israel would cease to exist. The same is true for Jordan. It would be a matter of time before the Jordanian government would be overthrown if Jordan absorbed the West Bank. The new government would be probably more hostile to Israel than the current government.

3. It is in the interests of neither Jordan nor Israel for Jordan to absorb the West Bank.

4. The Palestinians were not consulted previously when the Balfour Declaration was put forth. Your solution is another one that would be made without consulting the people who would be affected.

You probably will generate another article iterating the same nonsense.

#To JohnBennetts

You state that reunification of the West Bank with Jordan "clearly won't work" but give no reasons why.

It worked for 17 years from 1950-1967. Why wouldn't it work again?

Why would Prince Hassan and Farouk Kaddoumi be making their statements at this particular time if they believed it would not work?

# To Emperor Julian

Prince Hassan of Jordan and senior PLO official Farouk Kaddoumi are certainly not "a drumbeat from racist Israel through its spokesmen" as you disingenuously allege. Their call to reunify the West Bank with Jordan cannot be so arbitrarily dismissed. They are part of a growing Arab opinion that direct negotiations between Israel and Jordan are required to determine the future of the West Bank.

#To david f

You might think the proposal to reunify the West Bank with Jordan is "unrealistic".

Prince Hassan, Farouk Kaddoumi and the Arab sources and documents quoted in my article clearly don!t agree with you.

Neither does history - which saw the Arab population of the West Bank agree to unify that territory with Transjordan in 1950 and rename the new entity "Jordan" and to become part of a Parliament that had 30 representatives from the West Bank and 30 representatives from the East Bank.

Dear David,

Try as you may you cannot go back to 1950. The Palestinians have developed a separate identity since then.

If England would repeal the Stamp Act which was a precipitating cause for the American Revolution the US would not become a British colony again.

Trying to make the West Bank part of Jordan even though it was occupied by Jordan in the past is equally unrealistic. Repetition of nonsense does not produce sense.

Dear David F.,

<<Trying to make the West Bank part of Jordan even though it was occupied by Jordan in the past is equally unrealistic>>

This is true, but the outcome of Israel returning the West Bank to Jordan is not necessarily the West Bank becoming part of Jordan - it is only the first step!

In other scenarios, the next step could be, for example:

1) The day after the ceremonial return of the West Bank to Jordan, King Abdullah grants the Palestinians there independence.

2) The day after the ceremonial return of the West Bank to Jordan, King Abdullah sends his troops to massacre the Palestinians to the last (the world wouldn't complain, because it would then not be Israel but an internal Arab matter).

3) The day after the ceremonial return of the West Bank to Jordan, the Palestinians there rebel and join the opposition Syrian forces to become part of Syria.

4) The day after the ceremonial return of the West Bank to Jordan, all Palestinians will rush to the Rabbis to become Jewish and immigrate to Israel because they would realize that despite everything, life there is better.

And I am sure you can find yourself many more scenarios - let's just start then with the first step!

Dear Yuyutsu,

Is your first step making the West Bank part of Jordan? Since both Jordan and most Palestinians oppose that how does one take the first step?

Dear David F.,

<<Is your first step making the West Bank part of Jordan? Since both Jordan and most Palestinians oppose that how does one take the first step?>>

We must remember the context - this is a David Singer article, and he wrote that Jordan is willing to take back the West Bank (after many years that it washed its hands and refused to take it back). For me it's like the heavens opening up and choirs of angels streaming down: if you dispute that fact, go argue with David Singer, not with me!

In that case, all that is needed is an agreement between Israel and Jordan whereby Israel hands over the West Bank to Jordan, period. The Palestinians may be kicking and screaming, but under this scenario nobody is going to ask them.

Dear David G.

<<Well, the first thing I would do is to stop the occupation of the people who were firing the rockets.>>

To open an open door, one must first close it.

It now seems that your wish will soon be granted and Israel will, in a few weeks, withdraw from Gaza yet again.

<<Then I would give the occupied people their land back, the land which I had stolen, and allow them to form their own sovereign nation.>>

Are you then going to stay on that land, or leave it and go back to England?

<<Then I would pay them massive reparation for the decades of horror and genocide and war crimes which my nation had inflicted upon them.>>

So what if they say: "We don't want your money, we don't want your apologies, we only want you out of here and until you leave back to England we'll keep bombing Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, Perth, Adelaide, Hobart, etc!"?

Dear Yuyutsu,

We apparently agree that we are discussing a David Singer article where we are still in 1950 and Jordan has not washed its hands of the West Bank.

David Singer has created an alternate universe. It does not merit serious discussion so I apologise for all of my posts which took his nonsense seriously.

Peace,

To #david f

I have not created an alternate universe.It has been created by Prince Hassan of Jordan and PLO official Farouk Kaddoumi as they have focused on Jordan's role in the West Bank between 1948-1988 and Jordan's interest in resolving the future sovereignty of the West Bank with Israel.