That's an excellent argument, David F., I actually love it!

But I wonder what you think of the following situation:

Christians come and buy your house and all your other real-estate for a price you are glad to receive. Your tenants then complain that this would evict them from their homes, so the Christians settle a nice financial deal with them too, then the government complains that this purchase will disrupt whatever (say it would chase away the birds and make the sea more salty), so the Christians arrive at a generous financial settlement with the government too, then some nomadic squatters complain that the purchase would deny them their habitual roaming, so the Christians settle with them on a sum the like of which they never saw before.

And then they want to declare a Christian state on their own, quaternal-paid, property.

This may be stupid on their behalf, but should you have any objection?

Dear Yuyutsu,

In the case you mentioned once I have sold my house I have no more say about it than anybody else has. Whatever happens to that property subsequently is something I may not like, but I have absolutely no greater say in what happens than only other person. Legally one may sell a property with certain restriction as to the use of that property if the buyer agrees to those restrictions. However, if I make an outright sale with no restrictions then whatever happens is simply out of my hands.

August of last year I visited Lake Placid, NY where my grandparents lived. I saw the house where I had many happy times as a child. I have no rights to that house. I can't go in it unless the present owner allows me to do so. Whatever sentimental attachment I have to the house does not translate to property rights.

David Singer mentioned reclaiming the land. A person has no right to the land because they or their ancestors may have lived on the land. The state of Israel has exactly the same right to the land of Israel as the government of Australia has to the land of Australia. They are the successor state of a government which had the military strength to take the land.

#to yuyutsu

You really are talking without any facts to substantiate your claiims.

Inactive Arab voters in Israel? There are 17 Arabs in the current Knesset 11 of whom are from Arab parties. Who could possibly be voting for them?

You also seem to overlook the fact that more than 90% of the West Bank was offered to the PLO in 2000 and 2008 and knocked back on each occasion.

Not unsurprisingly these offers are not going to come round again - like the missed opportunities in 1937, 1947, between 1948 - 1967.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

# to david f

Comparing Australia to Israel is like comparing chalk to cheese.

The essence of Israel's establishment was based on the recognition of the Jewish people to reconstitute their national home in Palestine - 0.01% of the captured Ottoman Empire.

Parallel with this development 99.99% of the captured Ottoman territory was set aside for Arab self-determination.

The Arabs wanted 100% and have never been prepared to settle for less. Until they do both Jews and Arabs are set to suffer.

Dear David F.,

<<The state of Israel has exactly the same right to the land of Israel as the government of Australia has to the land of Australia.>>

I'm afraid it's a mixed bag. I totally agree that a person has no right to the land because they or their ancestors may have lived on the land, but SOME of the land of Israel was paid for in full during the first half of the 20th century, occasionally up to 4 times over: to the Effendi feudal owner, to his poor farmers who were leasing the land, to the corrupt Turkish-Ottoman government and to the nearby Bedouin tribes who used to seasonally graze their sheep there.

One should also consider the fate of Jews expelled from Muslim/Arab countries and forced to come to Israel.

I do not share their view that having a Jewish state is a good or wise idea. Long term it is a trap, but apparently that's what they want and if it's their own land then I can't tell them not to. In any case, living under Muslim rule is not a practical option (especially if you value breathing and are not a fish), so for the time being, given the nature of the neighbours, I must support a non-Muslim (rather than explicitly Jewish) state within Israel's legitimate area.

Dear David,

There are currently 9 Arab MK's (not 17): perhaps you counted the 4 Druze members among them, but these mostly belong to Jewish/Zionist parties. Overall, Arab vote to the last Knesset was 53.4% compared with 64.7% overall, yet many of them traditionally cast blank papers as informal votes.

<<You also seem to overlook the fact that more than 90% of the West Bank was offered to the PLO in 2000 and 2008 and knocked back on each occasion.>>

Overlook? On the contrary, I just bemoaned those stupid Arabs who failed to grab the opportunity.
Also, you CAN make a horse drink by drowning it - Israel didn't need to talk with the Palestinians and ask for their "kind permission" to leave, they could simply leave!

Dear David Singer,

I think it's an excellent comparison between Australia and Israel. It is not a choice between chalk and cheese. It is a choice between Camembert and Brie. There would be no state of Israeli if the Israeli armies had not been able to hold off assorted Arab armies. If they had not been able to do that all the claims to the land would have been for naught.

The inhabitants who were on both lands were not consulted in either case.

The difference is that there are Arab states surrounding Israel which Israel must be strong enough to hold off while Australia has no bordering states.

We Jews have survived for a long time. One factor in our survival was our dispersal. If there were not many Jews outside of the boundaries of Israel at the time of the revolts of Bar Kochba and the Zealots our history would have ended right then. It seems utter folly to persuade more Jews to concentrate in Israel.

Yuyutsu wrote:

“SOME of the land of Israel was paid for in full during the first half of the 20th century, occasionally up to 4 times over: to the Effendi feudal owner, to his poor farmers who were leasing the land, to the corrupt Turkish-Ottoman government and to the nearby Bedouin tribes who used to seasonally graze their sheep there.”

Dear Yuyutsu,

Of course Jews have the right to land they have bought and paid for. However, I was not referring to that. I was referring to the state of Israel which controls much more land than that which was bought.

You wrote: “One should also consider the fate of Jews expelled from Muslim/Arab countries and forced to come to Israel.”

Dear Yuyutsu,

They were forced to leave. They were not forced to come to Israel. Israel wanted them. They should be compensated for their losses.

You wrote: In any case, living under Muslim rule is not a practical option (especially if you value breathing and are not a fish), so for the time being, given the nature of the neighbours, I must support a non-Muslim (rather than explicitly Jewish) state within Israel's legitimate area.

Dear Yuyutsu,

Living in some Muslim states (eg Turkey and Morocco) is a viable option. However, in most Muslim states it is not. How do you achieve a non-Muslim state? Do you ethnically cleanse the Muslims already there?

Continued