I am so glad that my mother was unable to get the abortion she and my father desperately wanted when she was pregnant with me - yeah, I may have just been a foetus, not a person with any rights , but I'm really, really grateful that I got a chance to live. Funny thing too, so are my parents now. She seems to like my kids a fair bit too!

"Bugsy, I can't make it any clearer. Sorry if that frustrates you."

I'm not frustrated by it, but if you cannot explain why, it just means that it's an assertion. What you are assuming is that I know and understand what your basis for the statement is, especially the "and is therefore worthy of the same considerations given to the mother" bit. Why is it 'therefore'?

As for your question about considering "murder" wrong. Well, what you usually have is a death of a person, the motives and the circumstances determine whether it is 'murder' or not. Therefore the definition of what constitutes murder is sometimes in dispute, on a case by case basis. Removing someones feeding tube is considered 'murder' by some and 'wrong', but not by others.

The rights of an adult woman is simply not to be equated with the rights of part of her body whether that part is or is not a foetus unless we are dealing in religious mumbojumbo. Murder is a crime defined by the state. Sometimes laws are just sometimes unjust. However, most states do not consider abortion murder. However, killing a human being who has been born is murder where there are no extenuating circumstances.

Oh no, not that old chestnut, rational-debate.

>>Let me ask Pericles and David F whether or not you consider murder wrong. Or stealing, rape, etc. I am going to assume that you do. My question is why? On what basis do you make that call?<<

That "on what basis" question is a classic give-away of the religious mind, the assumption being that such considerations of right and wrong are obtained exclusively from some Greater Being.

Hogwash.

As we have evolved into the various civilizations around the world, standards of conduct have been largely agreed between people. Murder is wrong, because to deprive someone of their life is uncivilized. Ever the pragmatist, society has also contrived to avoid describing wartime deaths as murder - even Christians subscribe to that, despite their "thou shalt not kill" instruction. Stealing is wrong because it is makes living in society less palatable - despite which, churches seem quite happy to extort money from people, using the implicit threat that if they don't, they will be harmed.

Rape is wrong because it is a form of person-to-person violence, which many societies have determined as being detrimental to the orderly functioning of that society. Interestingly, these rules also have been frequently discarded during warfare - by Christians too - throughout the ages.

>>As stated previously Pericles, I mentioned the Bible passages in response to a question/statement from someone else. They do not overly inform my thoughts on this matter.<<

So, how did you know where to look?

Being honest about your prejudices, predilections and preferences is not a requirement of Forums like these. But it does make discussions easier to follow if you declare them, instead of dissembling.

Pericles,

Re: your point on society contriving to avoid describing wartime deaths as murder: This quote from Voltaire sums it up beautifully.

"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets."

There are couple of aspects of this ongoing debate on abortion that I would like comment on.
We all know that when a child is conceived there is joy, fear or anger depending on the circumstances of that conception. No matter the circumstances every body knows when they receive the news, that it is another unique human life that has begun. It may yet be small with budding human features, but protected and nourished, unless there is a natural reason, an unfortunate mishap, or direct human intervention to terminate, that a child will be born. Then it is protected and nourished until the child is old enough to live independently, and that is generally well into the child’s teen years as our legal system recognizes.
What society should be doing is seeking to encourage young people, both males and females, to understand about human life, to respect it, to respect themselves and each other, to be responsible in their attitudes to sex. Ideally they should be encouraged to see that sex in its most noble form is an act of love, that is best saved for a committed life together, preferably as man and wife in a marriage contract in which children will be wanted and cherished as reflective of the love between the mother and father. A child has its best chance to develop as a capable, socially responsible citizen in such a family setting. Ultimately I believe so many of society’s ills would be significantly reduced if the great majority of people aimed for this ideal. In the mean time until a change in behaviour has a chance to begin to effect the demand for abortion, society should be assisting those women who feel forced into abortions to bear their child, support if they desire to keep the child, and support if they decide to offer their child for adoption.