An odd article, with major gaps in referencing even for its second slab quote. Was it written in 2008 when its references stopped?

Besides being an attack on an individual it appears ignorant that torture by the US may well have ended several years ago. Meanwhile the article doesn't mention more current and extensive torture in China, Iran, North Korea, Syria and Russia.

The article's lack of balance makes it a diatribe, but then again anti-Americanism always gets more air time - some sought of cub badge.

Planta

Thank you for such a carefully and well argued essay, Max.

Despite his large amount of outpourings and public intimations of his love of literary classics, etc, I have always found his offerings lacking in depth and/or analytical rigour. I seldom read his pieces in full in recent times, and feel a little guilty from an intellectual point of view. After all, he has been given such a prominent position by our only national broadsheet.
Not any more. Not since his article quite a few weeks ago that began with: Richard Dawkins was outclassed by Archbishop George Pell in every respect,referring to the Q&A session the previous Monday night when Dawkins and Pell were the only two on the panel. In fact Pell showed, to the embarrassment of many, not only little understanding of scientific thinking, but a derelict grasp of one of the central issues of his church today.

Sheridan delights in revealing his intimacy with the powers that be. Lauding American policy makers and practices no doubt pay dividends for his own stature and reception in God's own country. He seems to like to be on the winning side as well. Sucking up to the Israelis over the occupation of Palestine for instance. But as with the case over Pell, neither intellectual discourse nor ethical and moral deliberations appear to be his suit.

Thank you Max for lifting the veil.

"Torture," is a word that is only used in Australia when discussing matters overseas, but if anyone actually wanted to really look at torture, with a view to not tolerating it and eradicating it, they would commence with what occurs completely sanctioned in Australian prisons and places of detention. However, instead, we see only the most meagre lip service from aid agencies like AI and the UN, and feigned government interest in ratifying the OPCAT. There are effectively no independent statutory accountability mechanisms in regard to human rights investigations under state-based prison systems.

The 2000 WA prison torture report documented cases of prisoner abuse and formed Australia's first torture report to the UN and despite repeated UNCAT recommendations, Australia's government is still pretending torture does not happen here. It does, it has been documented, and then rubber stamped - happens every day - just take a look. I suspect that if those who had experienced torture managed hosted international aid groups, such as AI, then eradicating it might take on a new priority.

Discussion of torture as if it can only occur somewhere else, is denying, yet again, the fundamental truth that it has occurred in our own backyard for hundreds of years now, and is occurring still today in all places of detention, without any appropriate remedy or even acknowledgement by our post-colonial government.

Well said Chek, except I think you meant to say that Pell was outclassed by Dawkins.

Pete, that is a disappointing comment below your usual standard. The fact that the Chinese and others, including the Briitsh whom you don't include also torture does not justify the Americans doing so. In fact, torture has been widely used by many western societies for a very long time and it is idle to pretend otherwise. The truly sad part is that regardless of the known breaches of national and international law by the torturers there is absolutely no accountability. Hence they feel free to continue.

As for Sheridan. How such a sorry apologist for international outlaw nations such as the US and Israel can be said to be Australia's leading foreign policy analyst beggars belief. It says more about the state of intelligent commentary in this country than it does about Sheridan's alleged status.

I largely agree with Planta's summation. I would simply add that torture does not work.
People getting their toenails pulled etc/etc, will agree to, or say anything that stops the pain!
Any information relied on from this extraction method is likely to be completely unreliable.
One catches many more flies with a teaspoon full of honey than a whole jar of vinegar.
A quiet chat, a convivial cup of tea, humane treatment and the reward of privileges, may been seen as soft.
But gets far more in the long run, as does respecting human rights, different cultures and traditions.
We can hardly beat terrorism and the extremely evil men who propagate it, by becoming worse or more inhumane than them.
Given one can only lead or differentiate by example, then surely it should be the very best that we as a civilized culture, can produce.
It may be a slow way of extracting essential information, but far more reliable in the long run!
Having said that, let me say this.
If I knew for sure and certain that a dirty bomb was ticking down towards a mass destruction of innocent civilians! I would be prepared to use all and any means, including the extreme fear/terror laden screams/vomit/diarrhoea, that holding a red hot iron near an eye, would induce; or, electrified testicular shock treatment etc/etc, to extract completely validated, essential life saving information, in a critical timely fashion.
Moreover, there would be no eye witnesses or victim to interrogate or report, once all available information was extracted, just the smell of a righteous and completely justified burning, emanating from the nearest crematorium!
The ashes would have an unusually high lead content!
Rhrosty.

James, your concluding paragraph gives a nice, accurate summary about our Greg.

He is one of a conga line of pro-Israeli-American suckholes. Others can be found in dark crevices in Parliament House in Canberra.

Thanks Rhrosty

Yes James probably the last officially sanctioned case of torture by Britain was against the Mau Mau Kenyans up to 1960. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mau_Mau_Uprising#Compensation_claims :

"The good news was that a British judge had ruled that the Kenyans could sue the British government for their torture."

Of Russia's millions of cases the recent most notorious were in Chechnya and concerning Alexander Litvinenko:

On 1 November 2006 Litvinenko suddenly fell ill and was hospitalised in what was established as a case of poisoning by radioactive polonium-210 and that resulted in his death on 23 November...The British investigation into his death resulted in a failed request to Russia for the extradition of Andrey Lugovoy whom they accused of Litvinenko's murder..." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litvenenko .

Poisoning by the Russians amounted to torture - a horrible and prolonged way to die. The Russians used Litvinenko's torture death as a graphic warning to others who might risk opposing Russia's new authoritarian regime: http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=5245 .

Pete

The referencing could have been more explicit: the second ‘slab quote’ is from Glenn Carle’s account in the Q and A program which is the subject of the article; it is, in fact, a summary of two passages in the dialogue between Jones and Carle. This was aired live on Monday, 21 May 2012 at the Sydney Writers Festival, and a transcript is available.

US celebrity attorney and Yale Law Professor Alan Dershowitz is probably the best-known advocate of torture. He proposes a system whereby national security authorities can get judicial warrants on grounds of urgent necessity. His torture of choice is to push sterilized needles under fingernails, ensuring great pain without permanent disability.

His thesis is that, since torture is used by determined men in desperate situations, it is better to recognise this fact and provide a system of oversight by the courts. This will ensure it is used properly (hence sterile needles and white coats) and only as necessary, and with a doctor on hand. See his 'Tortured Reasoning,' in S. Levinson (ed.) Torture: A Collection (OUP 2004); his article is freely available on the internet.

Max Atkinson

We are torturing thousands of completely innocent people here as I write by jailing them without charge, subjecting them to endless mindless abuse and trying to force them to go back to their deaths.

Our refugee prisons are well known and accepted as torture chambers but we keep right on doing it.

No mention of the torture that exists in third world factories whereby children fall asleep at machines they cannot escape.Ah but they are brown people and don't have feelings like Westerners.

There should be no torture under any circumstances.The war on terror was and is a lie. Here is the scientific evidence to prove it. http://www.ae911truth.org/

Thanks Max

For referencing your second quote.

I'd also add John Yoo to the pantheon of torture supporters http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Yoo#Legal_opinions . Its notable that the W Bush administration nurtured the torture approach on the basis of hired legal opinions rather than taking the torture issue to the US Supreme Court.

Marilyn Shepherd

I agree that our refugee concentration camps amount to torture for many especially:

- children,

- those already traumatised by wars and countries they're escaping,

- those held indefinitly on unexplained security grounds, and

- those experiencing crippling interest increases to money lenders back "home".

Differentiating those above from monied economic refugee queue jumpers and people smugglers (perhaps bribing their way in) would be difficult.

Pete

Who are the monied queue jumpers?

plantagenet,

The British still use torture. The "five techniques" used on alleged IRA sympathisers/operatives was supposedly banned in the 1970's.

However in Basra, September 2003, Iraqi, Baha Mousa died as a result of this particular torture whilst in British custody.

The British appear to escape world condemnation.

>>The war on terror was and is a lie. Here is the scientific evidence to prove it. http://www.ae911truth.org/<<

Good one Arjay. XD

In a similar vein here is the scientific evidence to prove that the moon landings were faked. Enjoy:

http://stuffucanuse.com/fake_moon_landings/moon_landings.htm

Cheers,

Tony

Danielle

Note I said "officially sanctioned case of torture by Britain". I don't think Basra was. What UK law or decision permitted Basra?

"five techniques" was rapidly banned as happens in a democracy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_techniques :

"On the same day (2 March 1972), the United Kingdom Prime Minister Edward Heath stated in the House of Commons:

"[The British] Government, having reviewed the whole matter with great care and with reference to any future operations, have decided that the techniques ... will not be used in future as an aid to interrogation... The statement that I have made covers all future circumstances.""

Why not go after the French (now), Spanish, Russians (now), Chinese (now), all of the Middle East (now) and most of the developing world for torture or is it the "I hate mummy and daddy?" complex? Or the "we expect more of a democracy dismissal"?

Marilyn

I was hoping you'd appreciate some agreement with your automatic anti-gov beliefs but no. How bout researching "monied queue jumpers?" One aspect is a Labor government policy supporting monied immigration...

Are the Greens idealistic and left enough post Bob?

I like this site; rocks keep turning over and all sorts of crawlies come out to play:

"international outlaw nations such as the US and Israel"

"Outlaw nations"? Compared to what or who?

Charles Krauthammer on waterboarding, which the CIA used on three senior al Qaeda terrorists:

Did it work? The current evidence is fairly compelling. George Tenet said that the “enhanced interrogation” program alone yielded more information than everything gotten from “the FBI, the Central Intelligence Agency and the National Security Agency put together.”

Michael Hayden, CIA director after waterboarding had been discontinued, writes (with former Attorney General Michael Mukasey) that “as late as 2006 ... fully half of the government’s knowledge about the structure and activities of al-Qaeda came from those interrogations.” Even Dennis Blair, Obama’s director of national intelligence, concurs that these interrogations yielded “high value information.” So much for the lazy, mindless assertion that torture never works.

Asserts Blair’s predecessor, Mike McConnell, ”We have people walking around in this country that are alive today because this process happened.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/30/AR2009043003108.html

Only moralising hypocrites who live in and enjoy all the privileges and advantages of living in the West and take those advantages for granted and despise them in Pilgerian fashion would argue otherwise.

Plantagenet,

I have no complex … But let's be even handed.

I lived in Malaysia during the Emergency. Obtain a copy of 'standing orders' (1952).

With each terrorist attack the laws and re-action became more draconian.

Flogging by cane was imbedded in penal law.

However, the British admitted that their treatment of the Irish was worse than that applied to their colonial subjects.

In 1978 in the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) trial Ireland v. the United Kingdom (Case No. 5310/71), concluded that the use of five techniques (then currently practiced) was in breach of [the European Convention on Human Rights] Article 3 (art. 3).

Under the Special Powers Act, internment, arrest and detention without trial was enacted numerous times in Northern Ireland. Between 1971 and 1975, 1,981 people were interned and subject to brutal treatment. (Incidentally, in Britain in 2008, a Saudi Arabian had been held in internment without trial for ten years).

Operation Demetrius 1971, witnessed 24 people killed, 7,000 fled their homes – 2,500 south of the border. Such deaths were not isolated ... Bloody Sunday ...

The British have erected a wall dividing territories in Northern Ireland, referred to as the 'safety fence.'

In 1981, IRA prisoners went on a seven-month hunger strike - 10 men died.

MI5 and MI6 have their own briefs and protocols.

Let's not be twee ...

Hi Danielle

You're one of the few commenters on Online Opinion who puts together decent research.

Here's a more recent article on Britain and extraordinary rendition - The Guardian 19 April 2012 http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/apr/19/uk-role-rendition-fresh-scrutiny :

"The [British] government is facing renewed pressure over its refusal to disclose Britain's role in abducting terror suspects after the information tribunal ruled there was "a very strong public interest in transparency and accountability" over whether ministers actually applied their stated policy of opposing such practices."

The UK being mixed up with rendition looks like an avenue worth pursuing.

Regards

Pete

Thank you, Plantagenet.

I imagine that this will 'go away' - (then perhaps not). The British establishment are very adept at this; unlike the US.

Remember
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/apr/30/mi6-mi5-gareth-williams

One imagines that most ministers want results, but do not want to know how they are obtained.

Countries do what they feel necessary to protect their citizens.
Security, Counter-terrorism and Counter-espionage is dirty work. And ...as the public, we are rarely informed when an 'incident' has been averted.

Marilyn,

Whilst one sympathizes with detainees, they must have known before they embarked on their journeys that they would be held for an indefinite time.

Hi Danielle

Its probably an amoral business at the best of times but immorality (FORCING people to talk or do things) would certainly be immoral and would probably come back to bite.

Still there may have been positive moral aspects in the death of bin Laden - he was expecting it sooner or later (and given that a court case might have only boosted his cause) http://gentleseas.blogspot.com.au/2012/07/us-knew-where-bin-laden-was-from-2005.html . Also in some (but nowhere near all) counter-intelligence and counter-terrorist activities. Here's a multicultural site about the intel business http://intelnews.org/

Hopefully nothing will happen at the London Olympics or happen to other UK cities over the next few weeks.

Regards

Pete

Plantagenent ... again thank you for the links.

The multicultural site looks particularly interesting.

I guess, however, that the information provided is relative to what they can access, given the 'official secrets act' at the source.
All countries have such controls.