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The Forum > Article Comments > It's time shooters grew up > Comments

It's time shooters grew up : Comments

By Tony Smith, published 15/6/2012

It is not a mature and stable personality trait to require killing for one's identity formation.

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"Hunting is incompatible with the conservation values underpinning National parks."

That assertion has been disproved by the experience of other states and countries. Killing feral animals is totally consistent with conservation values.

"No adult can seriously claim an inalienable right to seek sport, recreation and pleasure in the killing of animals"

Man was born a hunter. You can pretend you are a higher life form by eating mung beans and tofu, but you won't fool most people. To eat meat you first have to kill an animal. It makes no difference whether it is shot with a bullet or a captive bolt.

There is no "sport" involved in hunting. However, it is a recreation equally as legitimate as gathering wild mung beans.

"It is not a mature and stable personality trait to require killing for one's identity formation."

A completely straw argument. Nobody says identity formation requires hunting. However, it is a legitimate recreation that many people find satisfying.

"Shooters' MLCs need to mature politically."

Maybe, but the fact that you disagree with them does not make you politically mature or them immature. The fact is, they are achieving what their constituents expect of them.

"The experience of duck shooting in Victoria suggests that hunters blaze away irresponsibly."

Utter nonsense perpetrated by discredited people like Laurie Levy.

"Endangered species are likely to be shot and many birds are left to die inhumanely."

The evidence completely contradicts that.

"It is unlikely that recreational hunters will eradicate feral animals from National Parks and so benefit the environment and wildlife."

It's true hunting won't eradicate ferals, but the environment can benefit without eradication. Reducing numbers makes a difference.

"Hunters have a vested interest in the survival of feral populations."

If that was true, they'd be all in favour of the Greens approach to feral animal control. It's utterly ineffective.

"There are also insoluble problems of misidentification of species and accidental shooting of protected fauna."

No evidence to support that whatsoever.
Posted by DavidL, Friday, 15 June 2012 10:52:25 AM
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Completely agree with DavidL! Hunting as a sport is a fairly recent phenomena, in the overall course of human history? Before it became sport, it was a survival mechanism.
How many Great Depression tables would've been virtually barren but for the bunny?
The sport in hunting lies almost entirely with the stalk. The end, arguably the most humane method currently in vogue?
A single professionally placed bullet to the brain pan, which not only immediately ends the animals life, but effectively prevents any of the trauma associated with the trucking or railing of tightly packed squealing domestic species, that may then be forced to wait for hours or days, in trembling trepidation in some slaughter yard!
And don,t tell me that they aren't aware that there is some unholy and terrible fate waiting there for them, perhaps after they have been trucked, in dry mouthed terror, halfway around the country.
Selected target shooting remains the very best way to reduce feral species! Poisons and traps don't discriminate at all, and take much more than the target feral species.
When I was a bitty wee bit of a bairn, I feared guns, hunting and hunters!
When I grew up and saw the real necessity to cull feral species, as humanely as possible, I joined them!
If one doesn't eat meat then one must eat buckets of broccoli or take iron and B12 supplements.
The latter an absolute must for proper brain function! [As vegans like tree hugger, Herr Hitler demonstrated!]
The NSW Labour party was kicked out because it tried to privatise power?
In my view, the upper house is arguably the only house respecting and representing the will of the people.
Moreover, and it is a valid question.
Show me just one verifiable example where privatisation has lead to lower energy prices?
Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Friday, 15 June 2012 11:52:55 AM
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A couple of points:

I am in favor of sporting shooters culling feral animals in National Parks. But as one experienced in the sport, I believe strict controls should be established over the way these animals are shot. It is not reasonable to progressively blast the animal into smithereens in the attempt at a kill.

It should be mandatory (with consequences), to establish a kill was clean. I think personally, the only shot permissible should be a shot into the head from behind the ear. Any other shot is not reasonable in my view.

This rule would turn the culling venture into a true sport involving skill involved in stalking the animal in the first instance, with minimal impact on the animals, and ensure a humane killing.

After-all, professional hunting involves the fundamental of stalking and clean kill!
Posted by diver dan, Friday, 15 June 2012 12:01:47 PM
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I see no reason why one should be allowed to hunt in public areas.

Get your own property, then shoot and kill there anyone and anything you like. While the practice is disgusting, you should be able to do whatever you like there, on your own property, for whatever reason, but not in public reserves: the animals you kill there are simply not yours!
Posted by Yuyutsu, Friday, 15 June 2012 1:01:06 PM
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Any shooting in National Parks would have to be strictly controlled, as is currently the case for hunting in State Forests - with prior approval for an allotted time within an allotted portion, and only to accredited hunters who are responsible and experienced, and who will have to ensure they stay within their allotted area using GPS. Targets will only include specified feral and/or legitimate game species, and penalties for any transgression are very severe. Hunters and shooters take their responsibilities very seriously, as even a relatively minor error can easily result in loss of licence and firearms, and they therefore have to be extremely cognizant of the potentials of their equipment and of the limitations of their hunting and shooting skill and of their physical endurance.

Nevertheless, I would be very surprised if many permits to shoot in National Parks will ever be issued, and would expect that any permits would only be for the back blocks, far away from the public, rangers and even the most ardent of bush-walkers. Inevitably, for any permits to be issued, security will have to be paramount - to ensure neither hunters nor public or park rangers/officials could venture outside of their allotted areas during any period when a permit is in operation.

National Parks have been a haven for various feral species causing damage to both ecosystem/habitat and adjoining farms or stock. Poisoning has not proven particularly effective, and provides a shocking and far from humane death in most instances, as well as running the risk of causing harm or death to non-target, and possibly protected or endangered species. In the right hands a firearm is both safe and a very effective delivery system for the humane despatch of an intended identified quarry.

Anyone who has witnessed the effects of myxomatosis or of 1080 poison would not wish such a death on even their worst enemy.
Posted by Saltpetre, Friday, 15 June 2012 4:39:05 PM
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It is time anti-gun activists grew up.

The feral hatred they show shooters is really moral posturing, pretending they are good people because they hold contempt for certain others. Their arguments are emotional and hyperbolic, because to a moral poseur facts do not matter.

The National Coalition for Gun Control helped ACA show how to buy guns illegally in Tasmania. As a result, one man travelled to Tasmania, followed the instructions on the show, and killed himself. The coroner Ian Matterson found that he had acted on the script provided by the show. (Lovibond J. 1996. ‘Hobart gun death related to TV show’, Hobart Mercury, 21/05/1996, Ed: 1, Pg: 2, 511 words. Newstext )

Almost 6 months after that show, an evil man committed the Port Arthur Massacre. When asked how long ago he bought the gun he used his answer was "About five months."

After the Buyback, one person kept yammering about semi-auto handguns and how to get them legally; Lee Rhiannon, with her media partners at the ABC. One man, a stranger to Australia followed her advice. A few months later, with the media frenzy over the Washington sniper at its height, he shot seven people at Monash University.

Anti-gunners' words have been found in the Coroner's Court to have killed someone; but my guns never have, nor those of a million other Australians. Take your pretended moral superiority, you smug poseurs; we are innocent so leave us alone.
Posted by ChrisPer, Friday, 15 June 2012 9:45:22 PM
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This article is an example of fact-free moral entrepreneurship. Note his use of emotive language to create a picture of irresponsible lunatics blasting away at the risk of all - completely ignoring a ton of evidence from the state forests of NSW where hunting is allowed, and the forests and parks of Victoria where hunting is allowed. The tens of thousands of feral animals culled mean feed for natives and reduce predator pressure on the remaining small marsupials NOT killed by foxes and feral cats. Statistically, the number of problems arising is very small indeed compared with teh level of huntign activity there. So is the author being dishonest? Not at all. Because he is too lazy to gather data, he pulls a scary picture out of his fundamental aperture, and just pretends it is valid evidence.

Call it by its real name; its the 'argument from ignorance'.
Posted by ChrisPer, Saturday, 16 June 2012 12:15:55 AM
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With the NDAA,Patriot Act and the fact the USA is turning into a facist state,the USA people may need all the shooters they can muster to protect themslves from their Govt.The German people were not armed so Hitler has his way.

I'm don't like guns but they may be a necessary evil.Many people say they don't like killing but will eat a steak with realish not considering it was killed.
Posted by Arjay, Saturday, 16 June 2012 12:37:43 PM
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eat a steak with realish not considering it was killed.
Arjay,
That's stock standard hypocrisy, you'll find it in everyday life around every corner.
Posted by individual, Saturday, 16 June 2012 9:54:20 PM
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In WW11 the fact that a very large percentage of Ozzies had supplemented their diet with rabbits & ducks they had shot, meant most Ozzies could hit a barn door with a gun.

This is the only reason we got away with stopping the Japs in New Guinea, with a bunch of half trained kids, in the militia, as we did.

Today it takes days just to teach many recruits how to hold a rifle. Many of them close their eyes & jump, when the thing goes off. The girls are even worse.

I wonder how long it will be before all this bleeding heart business actually bites us on the bum. It's only a matter of time.
Posted by Hasbeen, Saturday, 16 June 2012 11:01:08 PM
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It is really time non-shooters,like non-smokers and non-drinkers learned to live and let live.

I used to shoot kangaroos on a semi-professional basis and have shot rabbits and caught fish for the table. It is good way of reminding yourself than you are a predator and doing the "dirty work" personally instead of paying someone else to do it for you. A shooter bagging a bunny for the pot could indeed be fairly compared to a vegan growing and picking his own mung beans.

I no longer shoot except, occasionally, at paper targets but if someone else wants to brave the elements and pit his wits against feral animals it is not for me or anyone else to tell him he can't. On the matter of National Parks for too long they have been a haven for feral pests and a repository of overgrown vegetation just waiting to turn into an uncontrollable fire. If the parks authorities are now allowing sporting shooters to do the necessary culling at no cost to the taxpayers that is a long overdue and sensible decision.
Posted by madmick, Saturday, 16 June 2012 11:53:28 PM
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I can't fathom the rationalè of defending yourself is not a valid reason to obtain a gun license yet shooting holes into a piece of paper is ?
I'd dearly like to take one of the anti gun mutts & take them for a hike through some of the places I frequent. I'd say to them "see that huge boar there ? "When he comes charging towards you just counsel him whilst I level the gun" "I'll wait till you finished talking to him then I'll try my method".
Posted by individual, Sunday, 17 June 2012 9:32:22 AM
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If it could be arranged that every legal gun anywhere in the community, could be temporarily confiscated and held by the army, in extremely secure lock and key circumstances! It would demonstrate for once and for all time, that gun crimes are committed by criminals and not the law abiding gun owning community!
I'd bet my house on it!
The criminal element are able, even with the toughest gun laws, to be able to obtain almost any type of weapon they want.
Older style revolvers are apparently easily made in various backyard criminal operations, which are at least as common and portable as backyard drug labs? [The war on drugs is how many decades old?]
Moreover, instead of up-scaling customs operations in ports and container cargo depots, there has been budget constrained down scaling?
It is not guns, bows and arrows, knifes, axes, spears, iron bars and clubs that kill, but rather the hands that hold them!
Japan arguably has the toughest anti gun laws, with the largest most punitive penalties? Yet, it is reported that up to 40% of households hold guns, for personal security? [Laws have to be enforceable to have any real value?]
Side by side with that reported probability, they also seem to have the lowest pro rata break and enter crime rate?
Could the two reported stats have some sort of correlation or interaction? Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Sunday, 17 June 2012 10:07:56 AM
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The dilemma with the lack of law abiding & responsibility starts in Kindy & continues to deteriorate all the way through school education. Why ? because our authorities are manned by personnel who themselves lack these attributes required for a decent society. I'd say 99 % of legal gun owners have the required mentality unlike those in the anti gun group who help create the mentality which leads to criminality.
Posted by individual, Sunday, 17 June 2012 10:50:08 AM
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Grow up Tony, more like it! The vast majority of hunters, men and women, are responsible people who do it for a living, to eradicate feral species, as a food source, to enjoy the sport or a combination of some or all the above.

All legitimate shooters and gun owners are required to be licensed, our firearms registered, stored, transported according to completely OTT regulations AND have our privacy invaded by police visitation from time to time to ensure we are doing all these things. We're a hell of a lot more "grown-up" than the average politician, public servant or social engineer types.

I applaud the decision to let hunters into National Parks. Most Parks are havens for all manner of feral vermin and plants because they are simply not managed. Partly because as soon as any plan to cull ferals becomes public knowledge there is inevitably a groundswell of protesters crying and beating their chests over the poor horses, piggies, puppy dogs or pussy cats and idiots waving "Stop the Killing" placards ...

Hunters will be far and away more selective than current methods like poison or trapping and much more humane. It has the potential to be a win, win situation. And if it turns out to be otherwise - cull the program. Easy! We grown ups can work that out ....
Posted by divine_msn, Monday, 18 June 2012 2:49:37 PM
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The O'Farrell government in NSW caved in to the gun lobby last weekend supporting a 'Shot Expo' allowing the merchants of death, Gaddafi weapons supplier ‘Beretta’ and other gun manufacturers to co-sponsor the two day 'kill fest' in Sydney promoting guns, knives and pistols from across the globe. There were plenty of feral's in attendance, unfortunately none were of the rabbit variety.
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 19 June 2012 7:27:06 AM
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Tony Smith falls for two common myths that are usually propagated by Greens and rabid anti-gunners.

First myth is that hunters will have no beneficial effect in National Parks. Yet hunters have eliminated foxes from areas of the Flinders Ranges National Park, and as a result, the endangered Yellow Footed Rock Wallaby has become re-established.

Second myth is that hunters are morally inferior to those with more refined sensibilities, such as Tony Smith. It's not a mature and stable personality trait to rely on feelings of moral and intellectual superiority, based on mis-information, for one's identity formation.

I hope Tony Smith does not eat meat, or use any products such as leather that require an animal be killed. Or else he would be nothing more than a mis-informed (ie. ignorant) hypocrite.
Posted by Eddystone, Wednesday, 20 June 2012 12:45:13 AM
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We had a timely reminder yesterday of the mentality of the pro gun 'macho' boys sitting in the New South Wales Legislative Council. the Shooters Party's Robert Brown threatened the Greens MP Jeremy Buckingham with violence saying "Unfortunately we're in a modern era so I can't take you (Jeremy Buckingham) outside and beat you to death."
Was Jeremy fortunate that Brown was not toting his AK47? We'll never know. This bloke Brown speaks for, and leads the rest of the pro gun rabble. Lets hope that any of us never meet up with these guys in a National Park and step on their toes, we may find we are no longer in "modern times" as Brown likes to put it.
Posted by Paul1405, Friday, 22 June 2012 9:05:00 AM
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Paul1405,

Brown doesn't speak for me, and I have been a shooter for over 50 years (mostly target); and I look forward to him departing politics permanently at the next election. He strikes me as a buffoon, and I have no time for him at all, and I doubt any serious and responsible shooter would.

One bad apple does not represent the orchard - but unfortunately it can spread foulness and disease. We need to be rid of this one, for the sake of all reasonable, responsible and caring shooters - whom I am satisfied are in the majority.
Posted by Saltpetre, Saturday, 23 June 2012 12:33:55 AM
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