>>of course the kids come last<<

Kids? What kids? I didn't see any mention of kids in the article. It's a pretty pathetic and desperate debating tactic to be dragging kids into the argument as a stick to beat your opponents with. To paraphrase Pink Floyd:

Runner leave them kids alone.
Hey! Runner! Leave them kids alone!
All in all you're just another prick in the thrall.

Cheers,

Tony

Interesting discussion. Thank you.

Just a few observations and clarifications:

@ Pseudonym: Pericles is correct. And Poirot. The analysis of Scripture, Church history and Judeo-Christian theology now gaining ascendancy is that homosexuality is an orientation, just like heterosexuality - not intrinsically sinful or disordered.

Biblical scholars are increasingly coming to the view that the Scriptures warn against abuses of this gift, not the gift itself.

And historians are rediscovering periods in Church history where same-sex unions were celebrated in much the same way as opposite-sex marriages were.

@ Runner: Would you be encouraged to know that child-rearing outcomes are actually better for same-sex parents than opposite-sex? Or would this disappoint you? Happy to elaborate with the research findings, if this would be helpful.

Regarding the Kill the gays bill in Uganda, Runner, there are some Australian Evangelicals who support this. But as the article suggests and the link confirms, it is strongest in the USA.

@ Chris Ashton:
Yes, the Church of Scotland.
You can read a bit more about it here, Chris:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/14/gay-clergy-row-mass-resignation

Cheers, AA

Alan

I'm interested in the evidence for same sex marriages sanctioned by the church. I have seem this also mentioned elsewhere on these forums - could you supply a reference or link?

Thanks
Rhian

The Gay marriage debate is a non-issue for most people. In fact, even most Gays never intend to get married. So whats it all about? This is, like Atheism all about an attack by the Left on what they see as the institutions of Conservative Right under the guise of 'social justice'. Its a political and social assault meant to diminish the power of the what the Left see as Conservatives in society, nothing more.

What ever happened to the principle of separation of Church and State?

Atman
For as long as the state sanctions and defines marriage and churches carry them out, this is an issue for both church and state

Even if you are correct that most gays don’t want to marry, this does not affect the fact they should have a right to do so if they choose, the same as everyone else. Some do want to marry, so why should they be denied, even if they are a minority?

And by what authority do you speak on their behalf?

US President Grover Cleveland said in 1905, on the suffragette movement: "Sensible and responsible women do not want to vote. The relative positions to be assumed by man and woman in the working out of our civilization were assigned long ago by a higher intelligence than ours."

Sounds to me a lot like the “they don’t really want it anyway” and “God ordained it so” arguments against gay marriage

G'day Rhian... Alan may wish to add others...

A start for your reading would be the late Yale University Prof of history John Boswell's academically dense but rewardingly informative books "Same-Sex Unions in Premodern Europe" and "Christianity, Social Tolerance and Homosexuality: Gay People in Western Europe from the Beginning of the Christian Era to the 14th Century". In the former he includes translations of many of the manuscripts containing ceremonies of same-sex union still held in the Vatican.