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The Forum > Article Comments > The religion shaped hole in society: a personal reflection > Comments

The religion shaped hole in society: a personal reflection : Comments

By Simon Mundy, published 27/4/2012

Christianity has been the focus and font of moral and ethical judgements.

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"The pre-eminence of the mundane, economic and expedient in our daily considerations is a symptom of an atrophy of our ethical sense: of a sense of the importance to a healthy society and healthy humanity; of a strong ethical orientation and a high place in our social values for honesty, integrity, diligence and mutual care."

Translation: I don't like it when other people make decisions for their own reasons; I'd rather they made decisions for MY reasons.

There's nothing about secular culture that prevents you from making your decisions on any basis they like, including supernatural ones: but it operates on the principle that if you want other people to do the same thing, you need to provide valid reasons. And 'religion-shaped holes' clearly don't make the grade as far as most of us are concerned.

Perhaps it's because we can see that all those holes are widely divergent in shape, and many of them require human beings to be twisted, maimed and distorted before they can be crammed in to fit them.
Posted by Jon J, Friday, 27 April 2012 7:42:01 AM
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The propositions that

1."Christianity has been the focus and font of moral and ethical judgement",
2. "The very progress and social power which Christianity fostered has resulted in the undermining of the basis for its authority"

deny

a. the ethics and morality developed before Christianity,
b. the ethics and morality existing concurrently in other cultures outside Christianity,
c. the progress & social power that has occurred concurrent to Christianity, and
d. the progress & social power that has occurred despite Christianity.
Posted by McReal, Friday, 27 April 2012 8:30:45 AM
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McReal, couldn't the author just add "In The West" to each of those, and then your criticisms would become far less relevant to his point?
Posted by Trav, Friday, 27 April 2012 9:41:36 AM
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This article reflects the experience of many in our time. Simon concedes that Christianity has provided moral direction that science is incapable of doing. Perhaps he is a friend of the church? However, the church would be unwise to accept him as a friend on those grounds. Certainly Christianity has produced ordered and remarkable lives but the martyrs of the faith were not put to death because they were good people. Neither was Jesus crucified because he told us to love each other. He was put to death because he was himself the initiation of a new order in which religion and politics were exposed as power hungry. He ushered in a new politics; that was why they framed and murdered him, they were scared that he threatened the basis of their entire lives.

The attribution of good morality to Christianity as the sole good that it offers is its death knell. For who would die for ethics? How does ethics claim the human heart? The answer is that it does not. It is really law dressed up as something chosen, but law all the same and hence devoid of grace. We are left, as the article finally concludes, with the “evidence that treating each other well benefits both parties to the relationship.” In the end we are left with utilitarian ethics.

While I appreciate Simon’s reasonableness and his restrained admiration for Christianity’s guiding compass it misses the point. Surely psychotherapy is about personal change and the training of desire. We do not act because we have a moral compass but because our actions come from a transformed desire. For this to happen something in us must die. It is this death that opens the door to grace and genuine heart felt action. A moral code will reduce us all to automatons, law-keepers, deadmen.

Peter Sellick
Posted by Sells, Friday, 27 April 2012 10:57:08 AM
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Hey Simon
You raise some interesting points. In his book, Truth and Transformation, Vishal Mangalwadi contrasts Western nations that you rightly point out have been largely built on a Christian ethic with his own nation of India. He recognises that in Western nations there is this basic trust you talk about and a general looking out for the other. He sees this is not evident to anywhere near the same degree in his own country of India whose ethic has been based on a pluralistic religious outlook.

You also rightly point out; The very progress and social power, which Christianity fostered, has resulted in the undermining of the basis for its authority. For many of us, God is not so much dead as non-existent or at best is another human social construct with no absolute call on our belief. 

Charles Taylor in his book A Secular Age actually maps the journey that you talk of, that over the last 500 years we have moved from a society that could not conceive of life outside of belief in God, to a society where belief in God is one option among many and for many not a very tenable one.

Mangalwadi seeks to warn the West that we are in danger of losing our ethical base and thus the foundation on which our society is built. And we can certainly see evidence of this, increase in violent crimes in our cities; increase in the gap between the haves and have nots, evidenced by increasing homelessness and other factors; increasing social breakdown and alienation in communities, evidenced by people dying alone in their houses and not being found in some cases for over a year; increase in mental health problems, particularly for our young people and so on.

I believe Christianity still has answers to these issues and can provide an inclusive ethical framework... perhaps we too need to regain our fix on the North Star.
Posted by alwaysalearner, Friday, 27 April 2012 11:21:23 AM
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Where your hole suggests an imaginary Father (or Mother) figure...others like to just know that we are all in the same boat and know that living honourably is Good. Why Good...because good outcomes and inner peace are better then bad outcomes and inner turmoil. It is better to know others and live wisely, peaceably and productively than to be ignorant, judgemental, aggressive and thieving.
The "God shaped hole" appears to allow for many different moralities to co-exist. Christians are not so keen to follow the "turn the other cheek" and "love thy neighbour" when it doesn't suit them. Religion seems to be used to justify selfish evil as much as it supports good works.
Given it's failure on the morality front that only leaves the existential conundrum. Solving the "where did everything come from" question with "God did it" is not actually a solution at all! This "kick the can along" answer just makes the question even bigger and more inscrutable.
I must conclude that the God shaped hole is bored into children by institutions and parents. I was (mildly) abused in primary school for not believing in God by other kids...but was supported by my parents who said "respect all religions, make up your own mind". That support meant I didn't need to burrow out a hole for God but focussed instead on nature, science and philosophy. It would be pretty cool if God did exist...but it's in a similar category with super aliens running us in a simulator Matrix style. Cool but ultimately unlikely.
Religion is a human thing...trying to bolster ones power by claiming the support of the universe itself. It can be used to justify killing as easily as it is used to justify kindness. Ethics arises from group communal living and is more a function of evolution than supernatural father figures.
Posted by Ozandy, Friday, 27 April 2012 11:55:41 AM
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alwaysalearner: To associate the ethic of the successful West with Christianity you have to explain why Christianity took so long to get there...and why conservative Christians are so associated with Neo-Conservative regressive economics which guarantees stress to youth and the poor.
I'll admit that conservatives use religion more like a cloak than a philosophy, and thus it is hardly the fault of Christianity for being used thusly. If this use is not opposed by the church then one can only assume it is approved.
It is historical fact that Christian churches held Europe back for many hundreds of years. It was the fight *against* the church, for Goodness and truth which is what a *real* God would care about!
I guess what I'm saying is that rather then pretend that being "Christian" will fix ethics...we need to focus on the ethics as the primary concern. If religion wants ethical authority then it had better stop protecting dodgy priests, start endorsing progressive economics and stop attacking fact based knowledge. Being used a as a cloak of virtue is making both the attempted holy and the religion look sinister. Any attempt to "fix" belief will of course fail...but we should be able to agree on important ethics without needing to agree on an unprovable imaginary father.
Posted by Ozandy, Friday, 27 April 2012 12:19:31 PM
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Morality and ethics are an effective religious technique - they help us acknowledge that we are all connected at the core, that ultimately we are the same - God!

With morality we get the idea of being connected at the core, that if one of us is hurt, so are the rest of us: it's not very accurate because God doesn't get hurt or suffers pain, but nevertheless it's a useful practice and holds so long as we ourselves are bothered by pain. This is the basis of the golden rule: What you hate being done to you - do not do unto others.

Morality isn't the only religious technique around, but it's a good one that fits most people whereas other techniques are more appropriate for advanced individuals who live in varying degrees outside society.

Churches are not necessary for establishing moral practice or for promoting religion, but they seem to help. People who stumble upon morality and care for others in big or small ways, even while holding no religious philosophy, are nevertheless working their way towards God.

One of the questions I have no answer for, is whether a church, any church, is able to instill genuine morality in someone who is not yet ready on their spiritual journey.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Friday, 27 April 2012 2:36:00 PM
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Ozandy

'.but was supported by my parents who said "respect all religions, make up your own mind".'

You certainly did not listen to your parents.
Posted by runner, Friday, 27 April 2012 3:05:08 PM
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All religions are armed to the teeth - especially the two would be world conquering political religions of Islam and Christianity.Which should more accurately be described as tribalistic cults.

Both of which pretend that they have a "divine" mandate or "great commission" to convert the entire world to their "one-true-faith".
Posted by Daffy Duck, Friday, 27 April 2012 7:15:45 PM
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…Deadmen? Indeed Peter Sellick.

...Where is it stated in Christian theology, that the personal morality of a Christian cannot impinge on society?
Posted by diver dan, Friday, 27 April 2012 8:05:48 PM
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Runner himself claims that atheism is a religion.

Anytime runner wants to "respect" that religion not his own would be a marvelous opportunity for him to demonstrate that his "christianity" is not simply the carping type that has already turned many away. "Christianity" is much the poorer for not rebuking and correcting the type of "christian" runner portrays.

As for the thread,

There may be a psychological "hole" in our society, but I think the suggestion that it is adequately filled by the lacklustre putty of religion is self-evidently untrue.

Historically risible "scripture", demented "revelation", prophets who are at best war-criminals and a priesthood that has never been forced to account make the sum of all current religions an unfit starting point let alone a solution.

Rusty.
Posted by Rusty Catheter, Saturday, 28 April 2012 11:00:55 AM
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Good article, sadly misinterpreted by so many. A pity that we can't all look beyond our biases and prejudices for the essence of truth.

Regrettable also that the author's 'Kingdom of Life' remains a distant and rapidly diminishing vision - perhaps another two or three 'evolutions' of the species, say through another million years or so, may enable a reversal of the downward spiral; that is, if the world is not already a bed of ashes by then. Knowledge has not begot wisdom, so it would seem.
Posted by Saltpetre, Sunday, 29 April 2012 2:37:50 AM
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Dear Simon
Do you think you could manage to re-write your article so that it spoke in my voice? It could then be the best thing I've ever written.
Posted by GlenC, Sunday, 29 April 2012 10:54:11 AM
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runner: I respect religion...but once an aggressive zealot IDs themselves they are fair game. Corruption cloaked in supernatural goodness is not, and must not be immune to rational criticism!
Remember you are an un-believer in Gods except for one little exception...and you use this to judge others *despite* explicit instructions of your prophet/God not to do so!
When Christians get back to compassion and discovery of Gods works instead of conservative morality, tribal politics and systematic ignorance (based on "ignore"...the opposite of science) then I'll happily commend them.
Posted by Ozandy, Monday, 30 April 2012 8:57:07 AM
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Morality comes from the need to help the species. If religion were the moral and ethical authority that people like to believe it is then, what of the animal kingdom?

If a chimp were to kill a fellow chimp in its own group the murderer would be ostracized and left to die as it is a detriment to the survival of the group. Murder doesn't help the human species so we make a law that says you go to gaol if you murder someone, stealing from another is a detriment so it's no wonder why we made a law saying it is wrong to steal.

All these simple things have been around for thousands of years before religion was even a twinkle in the eye of humanity, We've gone from worshiping the sun to Ra, Krishna, Yahweh, Zeus, Thor, Apollo, Jesus et al. All these gods/religions have in common is that they all say not to do things we instinctively know not to do anyway, but just back it up with a threat.
Posted by Lurchi, Tuesday, 1 May 2012 7:21:00 AM
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Dear Lurchi,

Is it moral to blindly follow the dictates of a tyrant?

Both humans and chimps are constantly whipped by a tyrant - the swarm of genes within our body. Those genes are selfish, only caring about reproducing themselves as long as possible.

If it happens that killing a member of one's own tribe is bad for the genes, then the genes tell their human or their chimp 'Don't do it', but if it happens that killing the next-door tribe with slightly different genes is good for them, then they command their human or their chimp to kill. Similarly, those genes instruct us to gather in groups and establish a social order which includes laws in their favour.

Those genes often lead us to despair, feel helpless and believe that we have no free choice, saying "I only followed orders" - but that's a lie: we may not be able to do much at a time, but within that Pandora's box we also have a free choice.

Once intellect is sufficiently developed, the genes lure us to treat them as gods - to shape god's image in the likes of the genes.

True religion tells us that the genes are not God, instead that they are demons and that by our free will we can and should overcome their influence over us.

There seems to be an overlap between religious morality and protecting the species, but it is a superficial one: from a religious perspective, it isn't immoral to kill or to steal - but it is immoral to kill or steal for selfish reasons, in the service of our genes. For those of us with lower discrimination who have become selfish due to years of conditioning to serve our genes, religion simplifies "Thou shalt not kill", but for those of us who are past that stage, who are more discerning and less selfish, simplified rules do not apply.

The golden rule states: "What you hate being done to you, don't do unto others": If still, out of gene-slavery you're afraid to be killed - then don't kill others.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Tuesday, 1 May 2012 8:50:57 AM
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Ozandy

'When Christians get back to compassion and discovery of Gods works instead of conservative morality, tribal politics and systematic ignorance (based on "ignore"...the opposite of science) then I'll happily commend them.'

I suspect your excuses are simply a way of maintaining your self righteousness.
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 1 May 2012 9:52:36 AM
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Thanks for the comments folks. Peter: I don’t so much “concede” the historical effects of Christianity as “observe” them and I certainly don’t consider myself either a friend or enemy of the church. You said: "Surely psychotherapy is about personal change and the training of desire. We do not act because we have a moral compass but because our actions come from a transformed desire." I'd suggest that we initiate action from desire and steer that action by our ethical judgements. For me, therapy, where it is more than the healing influence of the reliable presence of a respectful and affirming other, is essentially the (mutual) discovery of new meaning in "what is", transforming values, hence desire and ethics. Ideally it also frees us to continue to refine our meaning making as we live, rather than staying rigidly stuck in “this is truth”. The transformed desire informs and is itself informed by the ethical orientation derived from our transformed view of "what is". As you imply, rigid codes are a sign of spiritual dysfunction.

Alwaysalearner: I’m sure that Christianity, as with other religions, will continue to provide meaning for many people. After all, some of my best friends are Christians. ;-) My personal project is to find a language in which to share my particular meaning making, to which I see the language of Christianity, and of any religion relying on (a metaphor of) the supernatural, as inadequate.

Ozandy: the interplay of our evolutionary heritage and the social structures and cultural values through which that is dynamically embodied is very complex and I hope to write about that anon.
Posted by SimonM, Tuesday, 1 May 2012 10:33:32 AM
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