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The Forum > Article Comments > Freedom of conscience at risk in USA > Comments

Freedom of conscience at risk in USA : Comments

By Mishka Góra, published 17/2/2012

Founded by refugees from religious persecution the US now risks turning religion into a matter for the state.

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The religious fundamentalist have got it pretty bad. They should read a Sam Harris book and get checked out with a brain scan immediately. It is a fact that many religious fundamentalists have these similar delusions and may well have a serious mental health problem.
They seem to think these religious delusions and superstitions they suffer from, all invented and contrived by people that the rest of us consider no more than manipulative charlatans are real, none of these totalitarian dictates were composed by the supernatural entity Yahweh their numerous competing cults worships as if it were actually real, they are all man made derived from sun worship.
Try this exercise to try to stop supernatural religious delusions, it is difficult though, just think, which Pope or clergy do you consider is responsible for the most crimes against humanity, some are arguably the most horrific people in history, there are so many, even the pedophile child rapist being protected by your church from prosecution today. Put down your totalitarian dogma and get yourself a history book.
As for totalitarianism, look up "fascist Catholics" at google, one of the worst, Mussolini created the Vatican State in 1929, hows that for a pedigree. Look up "Gott Mitt Uns" at google.
Here's a quote for you to memorize, by someone that knows about Fascist Catholics and totalitarians.
When fascism comes to your country it will have a flag in one hand and a bible in the other. Sinclair Lewis 1935.
Now take a good look at the new age totalitarian religious right we see daily, the ones with the bible in one hand and a flag pinned on their lapel, right where the Nazis had their swastika pinned?
Posted by HFR, Wednesday, 22 February 2012 7:12:43 AM
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Dear Mishka,

Thank you for your considered response and thank you as well for being prepared to continue the discussion on your article via this forum. There are not a lot of authors who avail themselves of the opportunity so kudos to you for doing so.

First to your defense of your statement. 

You claimed "everything except the word 'dictatorial' is beyond question.". Well here is my question, are the women who work in the Catholic Churches denied access to coverage of their contraception costs or not?

Of course they are, so you can hardly claim this benefit is available "to all American women "no matter where they work"" never mind how narrow you believe the exemption to be.

Nor can you claim it is free. That it is of such a minor cost to make it universal that the insurers were able to absorb it in their packages doesn't change that fact.

Further you will be aware that there are very few wholly employer funded insurance schemes in America. Nearly all involve co-contributions from the employees. 

"Typically, employers pay about 85% of the insurance premium for their employees, and about 75% of the premium for their employees' dependents. The employee pays the remaining fraction of the premium, usually with pre-tax/tax-exempt earnings." wikipedia

Therefore a possible solution for those frocked folk is to consider that the small cost comes from the employee's share. Ultimately it is the employee's benefit, part of their renumeration and just as a Catholic employer shouldn't be able to dictate how that wage is spent nor should they have control over over the health insurance component.

Cont..
Posted by csteele, Wednesday, 22 February 2012 9:27:34 AM
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Cont..

When the compromise was reached the Catholic Health Association, representing over 600 Catholic medical facilities which opposed the original mandate, said the new one "protects religious liberty and the conscience rights of Catholic institutions."

Then a bunch of old men got involved. Not without precedence though. Around 28% of American women have had their tubes tied and Catholic women are indistinguishable in their rates from the rest of the population. But in 2001, the conference of bishops revised its Ethical and Religious Directives for Catholic Health Care Services, decided to put sterilization on a par with abortion as "intrinsically immoral."

You may see this as a divine dictum delivered in this century, but to the outsider it appears to be the whim of a group of old celibate men deciding to further rule over women's reproductive health.

As a Catholic you are welcome to it but the reality is that in most cases it is not Catholic funds that are paying for their employee health insurance but rather the tax payers of America. The Catholic organizations have been charged with distributing those funds to deliver services that assist the community. If I were one of those tax payers I certainly wouldn't want my contributions filtered through a religious sieve and not to go where my democratically elected President, with the support of a vast majority of citizens, has rightly mandated they go.

I'm afraid after that Mishka you talk yourself into a circle. I do it myself sometimes.

Be that as it may I did find you words "Sexual irresponsibility is bad enough as it is, we shouldn't force employers to subsidise it." depressingly Catholic and  Pauline take on this. I do find the Jewish attitude to the joyousness of sex far more refreshing. Something to be experienced in abundance just like life.

Permit me to be a little saddened when I observe what appears to be a dampening of that spirit. 
Posted by csteele, Wednesday, 22 February 2012 9:30:16 AM
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Dear Csteele,

As for "the Jewish attitude to the joyousness of sex", just as in Christianity, Judaism too has no uniform attitude to sex - each sect to their own, please read:
http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/week-s-end/gur-hasidim-and-sexual-separation-1.410811
and
http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/week-s-end/for-members-of-israel-s-ultra-orthodox-gur-sect-sex-is-a-sin-1.412153
Posted by Yuyutsu, Wednesday, 22 February 2012 10:45:49 AM
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(Written last night but post limit had been reached.)

I'm taking a break from OLO for Lent, so I'm afraid you'll have to redirect your rants if you want a reply.

I should note, however, that the way this thread has turned into a forum for anti-Catholic pillory, despite my best efforts to keep the discussion on the topic, demonstrates how difficult it is for Catholics to get a fair hearing. Instead of discussing whose role it is to pay for contraception, this thread has pretty much become a place to sound off against Catholicism. Yabby's most recent comment "Catholic Church has no scruples" is a case in point - is the Church so unscrupulous it's devoid of morality, or is there a conspiracy to impose its morality? You can't argue both ways... unless you're Yabby or another OLO troll!

(Poirot, wrt your point, PP claims to do more than provide contraception and abortion, so it would be rather difficult to withhold tax on conscience grounds. And I think you will find even the Pope agrees with you about universal health care: http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1004736.htm, as do I. Catholics tend to be very active in the areas of social justice, and many Catholics voted for Obama last election, though not expecting Obama to violate their freedom of conscience. More on this: http://catholicphilly.com/2012/02/news/nation-world/blaire-catholic-church-has-long-sought-decent-health-care-for-all/ Problem is that contraception and abortion are often called 'health care' when there's nothing intrinsically unhealthy about being pregnant and therefore no justification for its funding by Catholic employers.)

As a final comment, I think it's interesting that despite a great deal of attention being paid to Santorum's Catholic views on contraception, his popularity with women is increasing: http://cnsnews.com/news/article/women-prefer-santorum-romney-10-point-margin-says-gallup

P.S. csteele, I didn't realise that the joyousness of sex was dependent on being irresponsible or using contraception... or that a "Catholic" view of sex was intrinsically depressing! That suggests to me that you have a paltry understanding of Catholicism and are prejudiced, because I consider the Jewish attitude to sex as essentially the same. Indeed, Orthodox Jews are just as opposed to artificial contraception and abortion as orthodox Catholics.
Posted by Mishka Gora, Wednesday, 22 February 2012 11:12:22 AM
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Mishka Gora,

If it's your expectation that everyone should agree with you, it would probably be more appropriate to restrict your articles to appearances on Catholic forums.

This subject rests intrinsically on Catholic precepts and how they are impacted by their seeming incompatibility with many facets of modern Western society. Any discussion on claims of "moral exemption" simultaneously invites critical appraisal of the system that promotes it.

It seems that you consider those opinions challenging your own to be "rants"...respect works both ways in debate.
Posted by Poirot, Wednesday, 22 February 2012 11:37:44 AM
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