Good article and much needed.
I am more than old enough to remember polio, smallpox, whooping cough, measels, mumps etc. Polio: awful illness, crippling. Now effectively eliminated by VACCINATION.
Smallpox: medicines greatest triumph, now eliminated by VACCINATION. Two of my childhood friends got it but were already vaccinated so effect was very small.
Mumps, not supposedly all that bad, but I have this memory of a friend of mine aged about 45 at the time who got mumps. He lay on his back with legs apart and a frame over his legs to stop the bedclothes touching is tennis ball sized testes. Now only the children of the pig ignorant anti vac brigade risk that. Whooping cough in small children is hidious, rib breaking coughing. All kids can have preventatives innoculation. It is a scandal that some children still get it - due to their parents weird thinking.
So the list goes on. We live in an age where mumbo jumbo pseudo medicine is common. Gormless. Even if there is a one in a hundred thousand that a nasty reaction were to take place, then that is trivial compared to the probablity of getting a horrid illness with potential awful long term effects. The only exceptions should be where a person has an allergic reaction to something. I am badly allergic to egg so cannot have the 'flu shots, how I envy those who can have them as I croak my way through yet another bout.
But no, all too many people buy all sorts of dubious (at best) quack nostrums, whilst sounding off about proper medical treatments.
Some of these 'treatments' are allowed under medical care/insurance systems. fatuous and wrong.
Like the writer I am a member of Australian Skeptics. Good stuff especially re quackery.
Proper medicine, scientifically based, blind tested needs support, one way to do that is to get overtly critical of quackery.

a good friend of mine has nursed their daughter for the last 25 years after she was vaccinated at the age of two. Regular fits, the mind of a two year old and constant changing of nappies has certainly taken its toll on them. Whether the risk of vaciination is worth it or not I don't know. What I do know is the dismissive arrogant believers in anything called science is often wrong. Do some research before having your sons and daughters vacinated from every known disease to man. In the end they will die of something. I am yet to have a flu shot and have been flu free for 15 years. Everyone I k now who gets the shot seems to cop a dose.

runner,
the odd anecdote is not evidence.

Moreover, it remains to be proven the childs lifelong issues were the consequence of vaccination - it may not be.

runner,

Spoken like a person who hasn't seen, experienced or bothered to learn about the misery caused by "now" preventable diseases. Ever seen a very young baby in the throws of a whooping cough attack? They catch it before they have had the required inoculations (at least 2 doses required - minimum 4 months old)

"Australia is currently experiencing an epidemic of pertussis" (whooping cough)

http://health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/immunise-pertussis

Just as well the skeptics benefit from herd immunity, however if the vaccination rate drops too low, that goes out the window.

eyejaw

I am old enough to recall the terrifying polio epidemic of the 1950s. Two of my schoolfriends were crippled for life. One died in her 40s.

Like you the anti-vaccinators infuriate me.

But everything in life is a trade-off. People must be free to express an opinion even if you and I think they're nuts.

I'm afraid this is one case where the cure - restricting free speech - would be worse than the disease.

Well done Chrys Stevenson.

A good job, a foolish Woodford Committee (prior to changing their view) and this is no doubt what that ex Nazi Youth chap, The Pope, must have been on about in his 'goodwill' speech when he asked his more moronic sheep to reject Reason and the forces of the Enlightenment and revert to runner's form of blind faith.

Runner, I am shocked to learn that you are only 15.

Do your parents know you are on this blog site?

I had a chum who lived in Kyogle and worked in the hospital there. All around the town there are (or were anyway) the sort of gormless ninnies who believe in crystal power and probably are the children of parents who read and believed Lobsang Rampa in their youth.

Whooping cough and other ailments were rife becuase 'faith' even when combined with the ultra magical mystical powers of crystals (to say nothing of tons of dope)simply do not cure anything, even a ham, which this stupid woman Chrys writes about must surely be.

The 'faith' hinterland (read, most of Qld and almost all of the Qld Govt)seem to be winning in the race to imbecility.

"combined with pressure from sponsors, including the Queensland government", now, that made me splutter and choke.

Including the Qld Govt?

So why, pray tell, are these idiots in the Qld Govt so intent on giving the Fiona Simpleton's of this world an upper hand in our public schools, with their promotion of ignorance via chaplains and RI?

Is there a 'wise man' in the Qld Govt somewhere, because there sure as Hell is no wise woman leading it?

Frankly, I would not be shocked to hear that Anna Bligh was as supportive of the non-science approach to medicine as she is to the non-educational approach to education.

stevenlmeyer,

Find much to agree with you in what you say.

However, there's several threads going on here with the pro-vaccination types. A first is a push for greater public awareness, so that without any additional regulation, the AVN will lose credibility and influence. "Naturally" so to speak. Their actions at the Woodford festival - and writings here and elsewhere - add to this effect.

The next approach is to lobby the Woodford festival - to either not have Meryl there or have her against other speakers. The Woodford festival is a private entity. They can make their own *choice* about who they have and do not have on. The exercise of that choice is a private prerogative - it does not mean there is any supression of freedom of speech - I see that as when there is some legal force from regulation or other government agency stopping someone from doing something. I do not feel recommending someone use their private discretion in a particular way to be limiting freedom of speech.

OK, the last string of the pro-vaccination people *is* to use Government power to stop someone from saying something, and perhaps that is prevention of freedom of speech. Freedom of speech does however have limits based on the associated harm. You cannot yell "fire" in a crowded theatre, for example. Yes, balancing out the prevention of harm against impacts on freedom of speech is a delicate issue. But it is only this last element of the pro-vaccination approach that has implications here. It is important not to forget that.

>>Increasingly, we live in a culture of fear and distrust. Don't trust the government; don't trust 'Big Pharma';>>

I hate to throw a spanner in the works but there is REASON to be suspicious of "Big Pharma."

Here is how Richard Horton, editor of The Lancet put it in 2004:

"Journals have devolved into information laundering operations for the pharmaceutical industry"

(As quoted in "Medical Journals Are an Extension of the Marketing Arm of Pharmaceutical Companies", PLoS Medicine, http://www.plosmedicine.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pmed.0020138)

Big Pharma does hype its "blockbuster drugs," the underlying data frequently fails to support the headline conclusions and pharmaceutical companies do game the drug trial process. It is a disgrace that so much professional development in the medical profession is funded by Big Pharma who use the occasion to "educate" doctors in the "advantages" of their drugs.

It is the failure of the medical profession to address these real issues that allows the likes of Meryl Dorey to sow fear, uncertainty and doubt about vaccinations.

If you want to silence the Meryl Dorey's of the world you have to start by asking your personal doctor whether he attends any course funded directly or indirectly by the pharmaceutical industry. Merely asking the question wiull make him start thinking about this issue.

"If you want to silence the Meryl Dorey's of the world you have to start by asking your personal doctor whether he attends any course funded directly or indirectly by the pharmaceutical industry."

Posted by stevenlmeyer, Thursday, 29 December 2011 8:18:18 PM

Those are two un-related issues. Conflating vaccination with Big Pharma is unreasonable & unnecessary.

While I agree that vaccination is a very good thing for the vast majority, & the small risk of harm to any individual is a risk worth taking, I disagree violently with Ms Stevenson. Her dictatorial attitude, & her desire to have silenced, anyone who disagrees with her is totally unacceptable.

She sounds like a UEA climate scientists, or an Idi Amin type dictator of a tinpot African country. Either way, for me she is more likely to damage the cause she is supporting, with her style of writing, than promote it.

I'm sorry hasbeen but I fail to see any dictatorial view in this article. What I see is a reasoned and critical analysis of the facts. Perhaps you would like to be more specific about what you think is dictatorial.

Hi Hasbeen
I'm not sure where in the article Ms Stevenson says that people who disagree with her need to be silenced.

On page 2 it is made quite clear that the HCCC had deemed Meryl Dorey and her organisation (the Australian Vaccination Network) to continually misrepresent information about vaccination. Ms Stevenson goes as far as to say she lies. But silence her? It's just not there.

On page 3, Ms Stevenson directly responds to "appeals to free speech" and explains why Ms Dorey never should have been asked to speak in the first place. How Ms Dorey blatantly ignores the facts. But to 'silence' "anyone who disagrees with her"? I just don't see it.

And as for her writing style, personally, I found it honest and succinct

Hasbeen, stevenlmeyer,

Australian law already has a number of restrictions of freedom of speech. One of these restrictions can be found in the Competition and Consumer Act (formerly known as the Trade Practices Act). It prohibits businesses from engaging in misleading or deceptive conduct, with the aim of providing consumer protection. This strikes me as a very reasonable restriction on free speech. But perhaps you think businesses should have the freedom of speech to lie to their customers - caveat emptor.

Unfortunately, Meryl Dorey is apparently free to make all the deceptive and misleading claims about vaccination that she can think of. She can get away with this type of misleading and deceptive conduct because it doesn't amount to shady business dealings.

If it is reasonable to protect consumers from shonks and shysters when it comes to commercial matters, why is it unreasonable to protect people from shonks and shysters when it comes to their health? I reckon protecting people from serious but easily preventable illness is just a teensy bit more important than protecting them from being sold a dodgy used car, wouldn't you say?

It would be as illegal as it would be unethical for Big Tobacco to replace the 'cigarettes are bad, mmmkay' warnings with claims that cigarettes are good for you - why is it okay for Meryl Dorey to do the reverse? Telling parents 'vaccination is bad, mmmkay' when the demonstrable truth is that vaccination is good is definitely unethical - why should it be legal?

The Australian Vaccination Network wrongly compares 95% pertussis (whooping cough) vaccination rates in young children (11% of diagnosed age groups) with 11.3% of adult vaccination (89% of diagnosed age groups). Then claim total population infection (100% of all diagnoses) is due to ineffectiveness of childhood vaccination alone.

Now that Dorey has her slides online let's check.

Table 1 - Vaccination rates:
http://i.imgur.com/w9I9g.jpg

Table 2 - Notification rates:
http://i.imgur.com/JED4P.jpg

Using Meryl Dorey's tables, and her own technique I note that 2001 has a vaccination rate of only 70.6% and 9,541 notifications. The 95% infant coverage from her other table is from 2006. The pertussis notifications in 2007 are 4,864.

So, just to show how senseless selection of unrelated data sets works, Dorey is also in effect claiming a vaccination increase from 70.6 - 95% led to a 51% reduction in infection in a mere 6 years.

Of course, it's all rubbish because her 95% comes from 0-2 years old. That is one half of 1/18th of the notification age groups (which for some reason she has chosen to omit).

The vast bulk of infections comes from adults. Children are at greater risk of harm and are hugely more susceptible.

The only fact of note here is that this epidemic has killed children across Australia. It began in Byron Bay, within walking distance from Meryl Dorey's own area and largest membership.

And still she is spreading the same misinformation.

Meryl claimed 83 cases of autism "associated" with vaccine injury in the US vaccine compensation court. A bit misleading. Cautious wording much? Not causal. Autistic kids do get vaccinated and some can be injured, or the courts rule subsequent problems cannot be ruled as NOT triggered by a vaccination.

In fact it was really 21 Vaccine Injury Compensation Program cases. The other 62 were phone calls/questionnaires, not followed up or verified, thus not worth the paper they're written on. Oh, and not passed by an ethics committee either.

Not one case was "autism because of vaccination". Or "compensated because of vaccine induced autism". The VICP and the CDC maintain not one case of compensation for autism - even Hannah Poling. Not one case of compensation. Ever.

Dorey knows all of this. One must ask: What is her motive for telling these tales of hokery and pokery?

Here's a demolition of her claim of the 83 cases:
http://luckylosing.com/2011/06/07/the-groundbreaking-vaccine-autism-investigation-release-of-may-10th-2011-2/

She also claims SIDS and Shaken Baby Syndrome are due to vaccines and the parents are paid off by hidden agents to tow the line. We probably got off lightly yesterday.

Poor Hasbeen, so keen to knock Chrys Stevenson he grasps at straws, imagined ones at that.

The festival people should have been aware of the 'topical' nature of this mad woman's business and always had her 'views' presented with an alternative view, that is, a rational and scientific one.

It seems that the lobbying efforts of Ms. Stevenson and others achieved that.

How unfair is that Hasbeen?

And as for 'tinpot dictator' hahaha, have you ever critiqued the garbage you churn out here on OLO?

'Hasbeen', a well earned moniker.

McReal wrote:

>>Conflating vaccination with Big Pharma is unreasonable & unnecessary>>

It's not me who did that.

The author wrote:

>>Increasingly, we live in a culture of fear and distrust. Don't trust the government; don't trust 'Big Pharma'>>

I am merely pointing out that there are VALID reasons for distrusting Big Pharma who, not incidentally, produce vaccines.

That does not mean I am anti-vaccination or a supporter of Meryl Dorey. Based on the evidence, vaccination is almost always a much better option than non-vaccination.

I still remember how nervous we were when we learned our son could not get his measles vaccination because of a strong allergic reaction to eggs. Fortunately we lived in an area where vaccination rates were high and herd immunity protected us. However it would only have taken one moron who paid attention to the garbage spewed by someone like Meryl Dorey (or runner for that matter) to have caused a catastrophe.

About a year later our son outgrew his allergy and, with great relief, we had him vaccinated.

All our children received their vaccinations. They do not seem to have suffered any ill effects.

However none of this excuses the gullibility of the medical profession in the face of Big Pharma's propaganda. The medical profession does need to clean up its act.

You are right there stevenlmeyer.
Some of the big drug companies still pushed the virtues of their anti-inflammatory drugs like Mobic, even after many reports of people having increased heart problems after commencing this medication had been proved.

However, the vast majority of drugs available to us have improved and/or saved many lives in our country than have harmed them.
Humans are living healthier and longer these days in Australia because of our good health care/medication availability.

I am a firm believer in vaccinations/immunisations for children.
I have nursed autistic children who never had their immunisations at all, so I know that the supposed link between autism and immunisations is rubbish.

I have also nursed children with whooping cough, adults with post-polio syndrome, and brain-damaged kids from encephalitis following measles.
All those parents who refuse to vaccinate their children are selfish and ill-informed as far as I am concerned.

Vaccination saves lives & ensures the decline of mankind, eventually.

From what I read Meryl Dory is making a profit from the misery that she inflicts on others' children.

For every 1 person that has a permanent negative reaction to a vaccine, there are 100s or 1000s that would have died without the vaccine.

I wonder if this Meryl bird is a fundamentalist Christian?

That would help to explain her rejection of science.

Ignorance comes in many colours, but the brightest these days is that of the funadamentalist Christian nitwit.

My money is on her so-called religion being behind her Pope-like rejection of the Enlightenemnt values.

I'm pretty sure she's not a fundy Christian. I get the distinct impression that she belongs to a different band of fundamentalists - the New Age mob, who can be just as anti-science as the most strident young earth creationist.

New Agers come from a number of different faiths. Many of them are pagan, but there are also a fair number of Christians amongst their ranks - this type of Christian can usually be identified by their unhealthy fascination with angels, and guardian angels in particular. Mind you, if I was a New Ager I'd definitely want a guardian angel looking out for me, because these people will swallow any medical quackery (no matter how absurd) hook, line and sinker. They tend to cling steadfastly to the paranoid delusion that the entire medical profession is some vast conspiracy set up to cause them harm, and instead place their faith in charlatans, shysters and snake-oil salesmen.

This doesn't bother me so much when it's people with a mild complaint like a cold fronting up to their homeopath to buy a bottle of very expensive water - it won't cure the cold any more than anything a doctor could prescribe, but it'll probably make them feel better.

It does bother me when it is Meryl Dorey, a woman who is apparently completely devoid of conscience, advocating infanticide with her dangerous lies.

>>They tend to cling steadfastly to the paranoid delusion that the entire medical profession is some vast conspiracy set up to cause them harm, and instead place their faith in charlatans, shysters and snake-oil salesmen.>>

LOL

The medics are not the only group of professionals some people think are part of "some vast conspiracy set up to cause them harm"

Don't tease us stevenlmeyer, do send us the 'other' groups you write of, and some evidence for your claims.

.
There has been, and still seems to be, Scientology stuff on Meryl's website

http://shop.avn.org.au/products/Making-A-Killing-DVD%3A-The-Untold-Story-of-Psychotropic-Drugging.html

Product Description
A Documentary
The Untold Story of Psychotropic Drugging

Presented by the Citizens Commission on Human Rights 2008 ....

The Citizens Commission on Human Rights (CCHR) is a nonprofit mental health watchdog, ....

CCHR was co-founded in 1969 by the Church of Scientology and Professor of Psychiatry Emeritus Dr. Thomas Szasz at a time when patients were being warehoused in institutions and stripped of all constitutional, civil and human rights.

http://www.cchr.org/about-us/what-is-cchr.html

There is other anti-psychology & anti=psychiatry stuff
.

McReal, are you thinking that this fruitcake is a Scientologist?

Given that Scientology is the only religion approved by the High Court there is no doubt that it is a religion and not a cult, as Xenophobe keeps trying to say.

Not quite Christian, for sure, and not just New Age either, any more than a Peter Foster teabag scam is.

Any other views on Meryls religious traditions?

Runner, do you have a thought here?

Is she one of your mob? In a general sense, that is.

TBC

Runner, do you have a thought here?

Scientology is a cult that has little to do with Christianity. Folowers of Christ don't reject true science because it is based on truth umlike pseudo science like evolution which has had billions of money wasted on trying to prove a fairytale with no evidence forthcoming. gw scam is the latest fruit of a very pathetic theory.

I have no idea what Merl Bird's beliefs are. I am not anti vacination however the amount of people including a close friend whose child has suffered greatly following vacinations makes me suspicious. I seem to remember that not long back the vacination for women wanting to sleep around with numerous partners was being thrust on young girls. Ideology often parades itself in the name of science.

Meryl's maiden name is Jewish. When it suits her she aligns herself with holocaust victims, alluding to the "culling" of humankind with drugs or "health facism" and "nazi's" who control Big Pharma.

At other times, such as when a Christian church cancelled her from using their venue she likens herself, her work, her sermons and her so-called persecution to Jesus:
http://traffic.libsyn.com/firesnake/dorey_sattler_jesusgrab.mp3

At other times, she aligns herself with New Age cosmic consciousness adherents who consider religion enslavement (as is common in conspiracy movements) preferring to use the term "god" without specific religion.

All we really know is that she's a coward, a criminal and a scam artist who makes a living from fear mongering and easy fraud targets. A New Yorker who uses Australia as a fool batch, snubs our laws, abuses the rights of gullible and scared parents, lives splendidly in beautiful surrounds on the money handed to her palm. If not for Stop the AVN 17 years of freebies would still be ongoing.

Copyright theft, charity fraud, cognisant of endangering public health and more. The facts are undeniable.
http://luckylosing.com/2011/12/15/meryl-dorey-and-the-woodford-free-speech-democracy-thing/

In a reply to the HCCC she answered the issue of whether free speech under our constitution allowed her to harm individuals or society, by likening her role to that of "running of government", citing High Court cases to this effect. Ergo: any health authority is beneath her self-assumed protection, leaving her "legally" unaccountable.

Simply put she's a narcissist with psychopathic and sociopathic tendencies. Immune from guilt, feeling, another's pain, compliance to truthful notions or community spirit. Yet charming, confident, always ready with an answer. Vicious when exposed for abusing innocents. Observe:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9zRbfTbPTE

Her inner cult ring is relatively stable. And utterly insane in beliefs and conspiracy adherence. Google "The Great Culling" for her source on fluoride, chemtrails and vaccines as means to kill off humanity.

Any out-group thinking is punished brutally. Only in-group thinking is tolerated. "Shaken Maybe Syndrome" is vaccine induced as is SIDS.

Ask Dorey one simple question - if she's for informed choice and not "anti-vax". "What one vaccine would you trust or consider effective?".

She is not a Scientologist but is a promoter of their CCHR frontshop. She sells a great deal of their material and is against all medicine including psychiatric medication. Indeed, a primary source of income is selling (again via *some* copyright theft) material that's available for free:

http://luckylosing.com/2011/11/04/australian-vaccination-network-selling-whats-available-for-free/

She's a denier of cancer theory - cures are suppressed by Big Pharma in their constant maintenance of the "sickness industry". Sells "cancer cure" advice also claiming her material leads to cure of cancer.

She denies the theory of AIDS. Everything from claiming it's due to vaccines, was introduced by a vaccine that used "monkey kidney cells" from monkeys infected with SIV which mutated to HIV - but also claims the HIV virus "has never been seen" - and the old favourite is due to polio vaccination.

Smallpox was not eradicated, she claims - just renamed. This is official AVN policy. Also with SIDS and SBS - official AVN line is vaccine induced. Tragically, whilst it has now been shown that injuries seen in Shaken Baby Syndrome may not be due to violence at the hands of those last in contact with the infant (and has led to quashed convictions) the AVN without fail allude to vaccines.

So a news article heading, "New thinking on SBS" is published on say, Facebook with claims like, "slowly the medical community is being forced to admit the true damage vaccines cause".

This woman is an inner AVN member, sells "education" via AVN. Here's her page on SBS. Note the first article is via Yazbak - who Dorey cited at Woodford.

http://www.wellwithin1.com/shakenbaby.htm

Here's Meryl during the 2001 "smart card" controversy. Claiming microchips are injected via vaccines into pets and next into children:

http://i.imgur.com/Hvala.jpg

Admission of conspiracy beliefs, coupled with instructions to keep quiet in public:

http://i.imgur.com/JSqPD.png

...following a member's request to go public with:

http://i.imgur.com/8qJxR.png

The story of $12,000 theft and access to OLGR documents confirming this:

http://luckylosing.com/2011/07/17/how-meryl-dorey-scammed-and-stole-11000-from-avn-members-andor-donors/

Same gig, exploiting a family, stealing every cent, access to OLGR docs:

http://luckylosing.com/2011/08/29/when-is-it-ok-to-steal-children/

Use of brand names earned over $500,000.

Do something good this year. Stop Meryl Dorey!

Runner, you are quite wrong about Scientology.

The High Court has declared it to be a religion, and then described what a religion was.

Whatever madness and stupidity it is that drives people to become Scientologists, they cannot be accused of belonging to a cult when they have the full support of the High Court.

But, and a big BUT, if you think they are a cult, then where do all the other religions sit?

Firesnake's contribution to an understanding of this eveil woman is appreciated.

However, when all is said and done, she really is no different to all those other 'cure' snake-oilers, like the ACL and their evangelical friends, is she?

It was Murphy J who said that in recognising the right of everyone to believe in and follow a religion of their choice without state interference that required the acceptance of charlatans and carpetbaggers as an integral part of the deal, and, my God, we certainly have that, don't we runner?

LOL

This is turning into quite an entertaining thread.

I'll put in my tuppeny ha'porth

The Blue Cross wrote:

>>It was Murphy J who said that in recognising the right of everyone to believe in and follow a religion of their choice without state interference that required the acceptance of charlatans and carpetbaggers as an integral part of the deal, and, my God, we certainly have that, don't we runner?>>

Well said Judge Murphy and thank you for quoting it TBC.

And here are some "charlatans and carpetbaggers" par excellence

THE INSTITUTE FOR CREATION RESEARCH

http://www.icr.org/

Love your work, Firesnake.

"she really is no different to all those other 'cure' snake-oilers, like the ACL and their evangelical friends, is she?"

Yes. The ACL may be annoying bunch of conservative nutjobs, but they're mostly harmless. From what I've seen, they devote most of their time trying to censor any sexual media. Even if they succeed, nobody is actually going to die from a lack of pornography.

Whereas Meryl Dorey and her ilk devote their time to convincing people not to vaccinate their children. If they succeed, there is a very real possibility of significant illness or even death.

"The High Court has declared it to be a religion, and then described what a religion was."

And the High Court is incapable of getting things wrong? I didn't know they were infallible. Maybe you're thinking of the Pope?

"And here are some "charlatans and carpetbaggers" par excellence

THE INSTITUTE FOR CREATION RESEARCH"

Steven, I feel it is incumbent on me to once again point out that whilst telling fibs about biology may not be considered entirely ethical behaviour, the ICR don't actually kill people. The behaviour of the AVN is a lot more concerning than that of the ICR, and given that the article was about the AVN, is it too much to ask that you stay on topic rather than trying to wind up runner?

runner,
do you realise "Scientology" has nothing to do with science?

health problems after vaccination might not be due to the vaccination ...

the vaccination for HPV is not just for "women who sleep around", it is to stop HPV that people can catch in a number of ways even if they only ever have one sexual partner.

Meryl Dorey selling things available for free elsewhere, including her own site? What a piece of work ...
.

Humphrey wrote:

>>Steven, I feel it is incumbent on me to once again point out that whilst telling fibs about biology may not be considered entirely ethical behaviour, the ICR don't actually kill people. The behaviour of the AVN is a lot more concerning than that of the ICR, and given that the article was about the AVN, …..>>

I regard AVN and ICR as part of the SAME PHENOMENON along with such bizarre cults as the "9 /11 Truthers" and the "birthers" who believe Obama was ineligible to run for president as he was, so they assert, not born a US citizen.

There seems to be a definite market for conspiracy theories. Meryl Dorey is merely one "entrepreneur" tapping into this market.

Chrys Stevenson recognises this when she writes:

>>Increasingly, we live in a culture of fear and distrust. Don't trust the government; don't trust 'Big Pharma'; don't trust 'so-called' experts; don't trust the media – they're all out to get you. Ms Dorey exploits those fears …>>

I confess I do not understand the growing popularity of conspiracy theories, of the willingness of people to cling to beliefs in the teeth of the evidence. Nor have I ever heard a reasonable explanation for it.

But this tendency towards embracing counter-factual beliefs with increasing fervour is beginning to have a profound impact on the politics of Western countries. Ultimately that may do greater damage than the relatively few people who idolise Meryl Dorey

HBF, you clearly know nothing about the ACL, for a start.

Best to understand something before attempting to sound as if you know what you are talking about.

Then, as to the infallibility of the High Court, where, pray tell, does one go after there to get a High Court decision revoked?

Ah, nowhere, eh?

In this country, that court is the decider, not your apparently ill-informed opinion.

You draw a strange line-in-the-sand, so it seems, where only 'killing people' is beyond the pale.

But sometimes, perhaps far too frequently, 'killing people' is arrived at by other means than an arrow to the eye, or a spear through the ribs.

And sometimes, 'killing people' can involve no physical death at all, just a mental 'death' that leaves the body upright and functioning, as with more than a few OLO posters.

God moves in mysterious ways, after all.

It's not that I agree with that High Court outcome, but that I recognise the all-powerful position of it, something that you clearly have no idea about.

If you want to be a pedant, do try to be pedantic about something you know something about, lest you sound foolish in public.

I am surprised that the anti-vax nutters haven’t found this thread yet. They are usually all over the internet trying to push their harmful agenda. Often under the pretence of ‘informed choice’, which can be much more accurately described as ‘uninformed choice’.

Dorey is quite a hateful creature and it is good to see the shellacking her organisation is getting. This is the sort of behaviour she exhibits: http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2010/s2951651.htm

Dorey and AVN are classic science deniers. They have a conclusion and then look for, or invent facts, to fit the conclusion. I think Chrys has characterised Dorey accurately.

TBC

'But, and a big BUT, if you think they are a cult, then where do all the other religions sit?'

My understanding of a cult is an organisation that demands allegiance but prevents people from thinking for themselves. Kind of like the current gw religion where you will be expelled of funding if you question or think. Any religion that does not give people a choice to believe or not is a cult including athiesm.

You also write

'It was Murphy J who said that in recognising the right of everyone to believe in and follow a religion of their choice without state interference that required the acceptance of charlatans and carpetbaggers as an integral part of the deal, and, my God, we certainly have that, don't we runner?'

We do certainly have that. Probably the high priests of the atheist business are am among the most profitable. The likes of Al Gore, Dawkins and others who make millions out of fooling people to be comfortable with their self righteousness in the name of pseudo science.

We also have numerous others who claim to be the way to eternal life when Jesus clearly taught that all who came before Him were thieves and robbers and all who came after Him are thieves and robbers. In other words outside Him no salvation. He could not have made it clearer.

[Deleted for abuse.]

T'WAS EVER THUS

My favourite Christmas present is a little volume, Cures and Curses, by Dorothy Jacob. It's+ full of all kinds of ancient "remedies", many of which involve shocking cruelties to our fellow creatures. (As any visitor to Bangkok's biggest market will see, it's a practice that continues today, despite the wonders of vaccination.)

Owl broth was one of the endless cures for whooping cough. One of the most distressing of the ancient panaceas was Oyle of Swallows, which is mentioned "fairly often" in the professional books. Bulkley says: "Fifteen or twenty young swallows should be beaten up alive - feathers, bones and all the other necessary ingredients."

Another receipt gives as many of 300. The swallow was believed to cure the dim sight of its own young by means of a stone (the "active ingredient") in its body. If it was taken on a Wednesday in August it was claimed to cure epilepsy and blindness in humans; protect them from peril, secure the love of a desired woman; and if placed under the tongue, would induce eloquence.

Eels, in addition to their use in curing a drunken husband, were also one of the many cures for warts. See Schodin (1659): "History of Animals as they are used in Physick and Chirugery."

Quacks, alas, always will be with us, even in the age of vaccination.

Wow! Humphry B (Bear?) has gone.

Runner, you said this, "My understanding of a cult is an organisation that demands allegiance but prevents people from thinking for themselves."

At a base level, that is what all religions do when they demand a 'faith' acceptance of what they claim, so you might want to reflect on your definition of cult a little, and refine it somewhat.

The point about the High Court, the point that Humpy declined to accept, was that, like it or not, they do actually define things here in Australia.

And when it comes to 'what makes a religion a religion', at least for Australia, they did just that with Scientology, and all who come after that tripe.

This is something that Xenophon seems to not understand too, when he insists Scientology is a 'cult'.

I happen to agree with him, but neither of us can ignore the High Court, and neither can you runner.

Scientology IS a religion, and the only one to have been tested and passed.

As I said before, if you think it is a cult, then where do all the other religions sit, given the full support (bar one) of the Full Bench of the High Court?

TBC

'At a base level, that is what all religions do when they demand a 'faith' acceptance of what they claim, '

This is exactly what it takes to believe the big bang joke as well as the gw scam. I actually agree with you that all belief systems involve a degree of faith.

A person can read, study, think about and then decide whether they believe the claims of Christ or not. No one can make them believe. Faith is always the belief of what one can't see otherwise it is not faith. Christianity is more a relationship than a religous system.

Christ's claims are different from all others as He shows clearly that all humans are hopelessly lost without His sacrifice. One can only be forgiven on the basis of His work rather than our own 'goodworks'. One can't be forgiven by joining a particular organisation or going through some ritual.

My limited knowledge of other religions and secular humanisn teach that if you are good enough or do enough good works it will outweigh the bad you have done in life. That means hope is based on self righteousness rather than Christ's sinless perfect nature.

My faith in the High Court of Australia having any spiritual discernment is not very high as you would expect. Most of these men and now women practice secular humanism which has moral relativism as one of their dogmas. They are likely to come out with any perverse rulings with this kind of belief system.

The High Court reasoning his here - see Recommendation 14* at the end

http://www.cdi.gov.au/report/cdi_chap20.htm

This is blog following an article reasoning for vaccination, not an article about religion.

Vaccination being a scientifically- and medically- based process, from the development of vaccines to ongoing studies of their effects ...

.

* "That the definition of religion be based on the principles established in the Scientology case, namely:

"- belief in a supernatural Being, Thing or Principle; and

"- acceptance and observance of canons of conduct in order to give effect to that belief."

runner, each of the current High Court judges identifes as a Christian, some more so than others, with Roman Catholicism getting a broad level of support.

I doubt that a Hillsong type would ever manage the critical thinking required for the job, just look at the Liberal drone who speaks on 'refugees'.

"My limited knowledge of other religions and secular humanisn teach that if you are good enough or do enough good works it will outweigh the bad you have done in life," well you did qualify that statement with your opening words I suppose.

Others can speak for themselves but as far as I am concerned, when you do something 'bad' then that's it, you've done it. No amount of grovelling or good works will undo it or wipe any imagined slate clean.

Lessons might be drawn from the actions though, to insure it does not happen again but that's about it.

Relating this to the current thread- it seems this woman, from the revelations posted here about her, is not a fundie, just a shyster, so she has no chance of being 'forgiven' at least, some justice there.

But, like fundies, she does reject Science, albeit for different reasons, or so we assume anyway.

I suspect, knowing some of the areas that follow her mad diktats, that a fair proportion of fundies would sign up to her shysterism, and maybe that is the connection McReal?

If the object of the shysterism is to draw punters in to buy gear from her web pages, then her self promotion and support for the cause has an economic basis to it, and she knows full well that simpletons, be they fundies or the New Age crystal gazers, are ripe for the plucking.

The adle headed fall for things, and the notion of 'faith' is rampant amongst the adle headed- just look at the USA where they all believe in 'personal angels' (although, funnily enough, not in moral personal or national behaviour!).