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The Forum > Article Comments > From Father Christmas to the governing class > Comments

From Father Christmas to the governing class : Comments

By Christopher Monckton, published 9/12/2011

Letter dictated by Santa Claus to Christopher Monckton as they both attend the Climate Change Conference in Durban

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Yes I always wondered why this forum did not feature more comedy postings.
Posted by Daffy Duck, Friday, 9 December 2011 7:32:02 AM
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Unfortunately, the loony-tunes idiot who wrote this is his own worst enemy, when it comes to communicating simple ideas.

What he says comes down to this: in all the fervour and excitement of painting climate change pictures, has anybody seriously thought about directing the "rescue" funds towards containment, as opposed to prevention?

Has anybody, come to that, seriously considered whether prevention is at all practicable, given the political nature of the issues? We are presently witnessing in Europe the results of ceding sovereignty over key components of national economies to a central, bureaucratic machine. Surely, in any analysis of potential government action, this experience should form a major input to discussions.

Unfortunately, the message becomes branded by the messenger, where it becomes so much easier to deride than to consider.
Posted by Pericles, Friday, 9 December 2011 7:46:11 AM
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But who is the governing class?

There is an essay on the Age website this morning by Harold Myerson from the American Prospect titled Markets Are Now the Most Powerful Force on Earth.

Quite so. This has been common knowledge for quite some time now. It is described in The Captive State by George Monbiot, and When Corporations Ruled the World by David Korten.

Never mind too that many mega sized multinational corporations etc etc have much more wealth, and thus real power than most small and medium sized countries. They are accountable to no one except their shareholders.

Never mind too that the fate of the world altogether is also very much controlled by casino capitalism, which is to say that most of the phantom money being sloshed around the world on a 24/7 basis has nothing whatsoever to do with creating real tangible wealth for anyone.
Posted by Daffy Duck, Friday, 9 December 2011 7:53:30 AM
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Brilliant.

Look the whole thing is just too absurd for words. The climatology is riddled with malfeasance and circularity, the economics just keeps getting disproved over and over again, and the politics is just blatantly corrupt and disgusting. The whole belief system is immune against disproof and ethics.

The political criminals behind this massive scam should all be in prison for a very long time.

What is missing from the entire rationale of policy in this matter is the concept of freedom, the concept that the coercive sector may not know better than everyone else in the world put together, and the concept that the best response may be not by way of forced decisions by an elite at all but voluntary decisions by everybody.
Posted by Peter Hume, Friday, 9 December 2011 7:59:25 AM
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Monkton=Fraud
Posted by John Ryan, Friday, 9 December 2011 8:43:30 AM
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Meanwhile, the world's glaciers keep melting.

David
Posted by VK3AUU, Friday, 9 December 2011 8:45:10 AM
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Yeah, David...strange about that....

Onya, Santa,

Nice to see your keeping up the argument for the status quo.

"If you really believe that a natural trace gas that greens the planet is somehow dangerous..."

Ho...Ho...Ho....

Your 1930' makeover by the Coca-Cola company certainly placed you in good stead as an apologist for the neoliberal agenda of corporate laissez faire. You're the perfect symbol on unrestrained mega-consumption....why would we be surprised that you would choose Lord Monckton as your private secretary on this particular occasion.

http://www.thecoca-colacompany.com/heritage/cokelore_santa.html

"...the image of Santa most people have today is largely based on our advertising."
Posted by Poirot, Friday, 9 December 2011 9:06:21 AM
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Another Vote for 'Brilliant'. Have loaned out my copy of a book entitled 'To slay a giant, try humour' and sadly it has not been returned, but the dragon of the age, the mythical monster of man-made climate change, is all in the mind you know, and it is in the minds of men and women the battle must be fought. Humour is a magical weapon of mass instruction, and we are fortunate to have such a well-humoured and well-armed knight on the battlefield.

Well done, Sir Knight.
Posted by John McRobert, Friday, 9 December 2011 10:18:01 AM
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Normally I don't approve of Santa, but this time I salute him for this brilliant article.

"The Planet was triumphantly Saved 2000 years ago and it does not need to be Saved again."

I love that statement, but in fact the world does need to be saved again - from that evil ruling class. They are not really so foolish or childish as to fail to understand that they cannot control the climate and the oceans, but it was never the climate and oceans which they wanted to control in the first place - it is us!
Posted by Yuyutsu, Friday, 9 December 2011 12:30:09 PM
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His lordship is even worse at satire than he is at science. Curiously, however, I find myself in agreement with some of his admonishments.
I agree that we can't buy a cure for AGW, but not that it isn't happening. I agree that you "can't expect your taxpayers to cut their carbon dioxide footprint until you have set an example by cutting your own", but for me this applies to the entire cashed-up class; austerity measures should be exacted from the top down, which sadly means his lordship will have to find more modest digs and foment his nonsense from the kitchen table.
It is pure fantasy to suppose we can even halt the growth in greenhouse gas emissions, let alone reverse the trend, by taxing it; in effect this implies growing economically while contracting materially--this is unprecedented, indeed non-sequitur. If there is one "law of economics" that's not but should be in the official list, it's that economic growth is not the illusionary product of improved efficiency, but of material expansion.
The only way to address AGW is to shrink materially, which means shrinking economically. We could do this by voluntarily entering an era of controlled attrition (an enlightened dark age), wherein our geologically significant human presence diminishes gradually (rapidly in geological terms) and with as much dignity as possible over a few generations, or we can and probably will just continue on regardless until the inevitable collapse and go out blazing.
His lordship is right that we can't fix the problem with money--except by doing away with it--but he's wrong that there is no problem.
Living standards have to plummet dramatically, but those of us who already live comparatively modestly lives shouldn't have to suffer a pang until the wealthy classes lead the way.
Posted by Squeers, Friday, 9 December 2011 12:56:33 PM
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That may well amuse some but as a hard working elf I have have just received this letter from jolly old Santa.

"Dear Elf
As we enter this joyous time of year when we all sweat away in the North Pole workshops ready for the big day, you may have noticed that this year there is not a lot of activity in the elves wood workshops. Unfortunately even the magical North Pole is not immune to the changes in toy popularity and modern efficient production techniques. This has been reflected in this years childrens Christmas Lists data. Our Christmas List database center management have high lighted a disturbing trend showing wooden toys that elves so lovingly craft, are not as popular as they once were and have almost disappeared off lists. Children nowadays prefer electronic toys, DVDs and TV branded products made far more cheaply that we can, especially with our excessive heating costs. With this in mind I regret to announce that North Pole Industries will be closing down the Elves workshops just after the Christmas delivery run when your services will no longer be required and your employment terminated.
I would like to take the time to thank you for your efforts in the past and wish you all the best in whatever future path you take.

Merry Christmas and Ho Ho Ho
Father Christmas

Please note you will need to vacate the Elves residence by 30th December 2011."

Nice eh? big fat red corporate bastard
Posted by Hoopdy Hoopdy La La, Friday, 9 December 2011 1:17:40 PM
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Daffy
The governing class is those who are governing ... durr. Those who live at the expense of others by the use of force or threats.

Unlike governments, private businesses are answerable to their customers in a plebiscite repeated many times every day. They have no "power" to require people to pay them whatsoever, and your assertion that they do only evidences your confusion. The customers are the mass of people, whose actions represent themselves and the social good far better than government, with its compulsory monopoly of force and fraud, ever does or ever can. The fact that some businesses have more wealth than many countries, is because they provide a service that people *voluntarily* buy.

But note that none of the warmists even pretends to try to justify this absurd hoo-haa on the basis of climate science, but of appeals to absent authority that has been have been exploded in here over and over again. They don't have a feather to fly with. They prove their case by stupid remarks such as that glaciers are melting. Nothing in the world is allowed to change any more without the parasite class claiming it's a justification for more forced redistributions of wealth in their direction. Their rationale is a combination of a belief that human existence is bad, and an obnoxious envy of other human beings. They simultaneously indulge the highest living standards the world has known by virtue of modern capitalism, while calling for policies that would be the death large numbers of poorer people, thus exhibiting the worst combination of pious hypocrisy and economic illiteracy.
Posted by Peter Hume, Friday, 9 December 2011 1:42:22 PM
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I want to live in the sort of cloud-cukoo land where Monckton resides...it would make life so much simopler and easier...just make up a story whenever you like and treat it as fact - brilliant!
Posted by Phil Matimein, Friday, 9 December 2011 1:55:55 PM
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Lord Christopher you tell us poor commoners what we really want to hear - that it'll all be OK and the notion that climate catastrophes will increase due to our carbon pollution is nonsense. And in such dulcet cultured English tones cite your own selected factoids - so convincing to the innocent among us.

Unfortunately for you and the obscenely rich and greedy 1% corporate overlords whom you represent, the majority of us are not so innocent and the rest of us are becoming less so.

Maybe a skilled childrens' author will distill your fantasies into a really good fairy tale for our grandchildren.
Posted by Roses1, Friday, 9 December 2011 2:44:14 PM
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(Apologies in advance for the verse - letters from Santa have that effect on me)

"Twas the night before Christmas when all through the house
Not a creature was stirring, not even a mouse
The stockings were hung by the chimney with care
In hopes that St Nicholas soon would be there

But Santa was cosying up to a toff
Who maintained that warming was a big load of tosh
"Think of the greening we help to maintain
By filling the skies with much acid rain"

So let's write a letter full of fanciful rot
Satire, I think, will just be the shot
You hold the pen, Lord, put your brain out of gear
I'll tell the folks they've got nothing to fear

Except for the governing class, I'll invoke
If they get their way, the 1% will go broke
We all know consuming is good for our "growth"
And carbon excess relies on plenty of both

After all, exclaimed Santa, what would I do
If chimneys were outlawed, I'd have to shoot through
I say, said Lord Monckton, there just one more thing
The North pole is melting - I hope you can swim
Posted by Poirot, Friday, 9 December 2011 3:30:03 PM
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As expected, many are playing the man, not the ball.

Hardly surprising, given the fact the he's such an inviting target, being a self-deluding, arrogant Pommie nutter. But the underlying question still needs to be addressed.

Is the "cure" likely to be more painful, or less painful, than the disease? Is adaptation to changed circumstances not a more constructive approach, given the horrendous impact on the world economy of the planned preventative measures. Let's face it, if we chose adaptation, it wouldn't then matter if AGW forecasts proved to be bang-on accurate, or merely a statistical blip.

Surely, even the most ardent AGW proponent can pause for a moment to ask that question. And some might even give it some dispassionate attention.

Hey, who am I kidding?

Hysteria that the sky is about to fall provides far more self-satisfaction, is far more exciting, and far less taxing on the brain, than calm and sober reflection.
Posted by Pericles, Friday, 9 December 2011 3:34:32 PM
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Thanks 'MiLord' - at least your post has generated some thoughtful blog reponses - thanks Pericles and Squeers for yours.

Yes I agree that the statement 'we can't buy a cure for AGW'is true but the questions is to what extent. AGW cant be cured - we're already suffering consequesnces and the rate of suffering will increase.

But by God we've got to do something to slow it down or it will be curtains for civilization as we know it. And yes we'll have to spend a lot on mitigation - from building standards to resettlement of residents of low lying areas.

Taxing carbon (yes carbon cap and trade is still a tax) is the 'least pain' way to a low carbon economy. Even if the carbon price exceeds $100 per t CO2e it won't lead to economic ruin. Paying 30c per unit for electricity would still be cheap.

Carbon tax merely shifts tax from labour (to be encouraged) to polluting (bad; to be discouraged). It is a progressive tax but only if all, including industry and transport who are as yet exempt - pay it in full. That will be the next battle.

Limiting AGW (to cure it is impossible), will require political will world wide. Can be done by the 'power of one' - individuals getting involved and 'spreading the action'. I think we'll need to operate on 'war footing' to change the way we as a civilization do industry, taxation, transport, agriculture and business.

As you say Squeers, we'll have to be willing to tighten our belts, work hard and demand the same from the recalcitrant wealth class. That starts with ousting recalcitrant politicians at the ballot box; also some mobilization on the streets outside the offices of the powerful. Long live the 'Occupy movement'

I am a veteran of the non violent occupation that saved the native forests of the Franklin - Gordon valley. It worked. That was small, this is huge and will take much longer but the principles are the same.
Posted by Roses1, Friday, 9 December 2011 4:17:23 PM
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John Ryan = Stupid
Posted by JBowyer, Friday, 9 December 2011 5:02:34 PM
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"But by God we've got to do something to slow it down or it will be curtains for civilization as we know it."

Indeed? Wow!! Instead of a threat, that should be looked at as a great opportunity :)

You see, your socialist friends, Roses, have made civilization-as-we-know-it so depressing that we will be better off without it, getting people out of their misery!

Unfortunately I can't see how global-warming can actually make a serious dent in civilization-as-we-know-it. It may cause some discomfort here and there, but nothing drastic enough.

If the seas were indeed to rise 300 meters as originally predicted, then perhaps there was hope, but given that they will rise no more than just one meter in a century, I won't hold my fingers crossed.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Friday, 9 December 2011 5:22:35 PM
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Just out of curiosity YuYu - what kind of impact do you think a one metre rise in sea level will have on 50 million people living in the deltas of Bangladesh, for example?

Do you think it will have an impact on the number of 'refugees' ariving in Australia by boat, for example?

Put another way, whilst I certainly don't believe in human induced catastrophic global warming - the consequences of global warming even at 2 degrees C by 2100 will be serious enough.

Pericles is part right, adaptation to a warmer and wetter world is very inportant - but so too is moving towards a cleaner energy future - we will have to one day, regardless of AGW.

As to "playing the man and not the ball" - a furphy. M'lord has made much of his "credentials", his "authority" and his "heredity" in arguing his "take" on the issues. There is nothing wrong in taking his "lordship" to task on the very things he uses to assert his influence.
Posted by bonmot, Friday, 9 December 2011 5:44:08 PM
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David Suzuki is now telling innocent young children Santa will no longer have a home because of climate change.

See the ' Give us the money or Santa gets it' story - its just plain pathetic.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2011/12/03/rex-murphy-give-us-money-or-santa-gets-it/

Anything Monckton can do to stop this cruel lunacy is welcomed.
Posted by Atman, Friday, 9 December 2011 5:45:12 PM
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I hope my comments don't bespeak Hysteria, Pericles, I don't think we're at any tipping point within the time-frames we naively consider stable; we're such short-lived creatures in the scheme of things and this has dire consequences for the way we manage our long-term affairs. Why is it that we habitually assess matters in terms of our puny generations? It's probably likely the human world will continue to degenerate, economically, ecologically and ethically, before the sky actually falls in. This is bad because as natural disasters, famines and atrocities become worse, emerging generations adapt and harden to the only reality they've ever known, finding it hard to conceive of the world as any different.

I'm more and more persuaded, Roses1, that our idealism is not only ineffectual, but a salve for the hard realities (and powers that be) that proceed regardless. I think our best course, internationally, would be a generational phase of economic quiescence and material contraction, during which time nationally and internationally communitarian peace-keeping forces would try to keep the peace and prevent opportunistic uprisings. The human race just needs to hybernate peaceably for a time and emerge leaner, wiser and solvent. But this is pure idealism and the reality is probably that at some point we'll meet a violent and ignoble fate--again.
If a family lives beyond its means, regularly "consolidating" its debts and rationalising its excesses, it will eventually collapse (declaring bankruptcy is rapidly ceasing to be an option). Nations have been at this passe for a long time, but engineer inflation so as to outgrow their debts, or just print more money, like a shot of adrenalin, to stimulate life. There comes a point when it's all ineffectual, where private and public debt are consolidated to the hilt--and reality has to be faced. We've had to confront uncompromising realities during during wars, this is no different except, and this is the problem, we don't have a gun at our heads!
Sooner or later idealism consolidates into reality.

Loved your xmas ditty, Poirot!
Posted by Squeers, Friday, 9 December 2011 5:49:05 PM
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The Governing class are the banking,military,industrial complex.They have also have strong connections to the royality of Europe,Britian and the Vatican.

This all began in earnest in the 1980's when scientists predicted that CO2 and human populations would destroy the planet.AGW looked real until the mid 90's when the facts would no longer support the theory.The elites had a really magnificient reason to bring in their"New World Order" They would save the planet by their total control.A. very noble cause of course

Debt slavery now envelops the world and the lie of AGW is now being revealed.

War will be the elites escape from us,since they now realise that this growing awarness,focuses all the attention on them.

Israel is totally focused on attacking Iran.They are the tool for the banksters who financially back all sides in conflicts to maximise their power and profits.
Posted by Arjay, Friday, 9 December 2011 6:44:50 PM
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Well done, Arjay - despite all the quantities of alcohol that you consumed, you still managed to hit the nail on its head:

The only two sources for all our problems are the Jews and the bicycle riders!
Posted by Yuyutsu, Friday, 9 December 2011 7:09:30 PM
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Why am I not surprised to see the usual bunch of conspiracy theorists and wannabe sceptics refer or link to their pet ideological hate or favourite shock-jock MSM outlet?

YuYu
Very well let go to the keeper - too hard I suspect.
Posted by bonmot, Friday, 9 December 2011 7:18:23 PM
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Peter Hume and other non believers please read

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retreat_of_glaciers_since_1850

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retreat_of_glaciers_since_1850

David
Posted by VK3AUU, Friday, 9 December 2011 9:55:21 PM
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Come on Yuyutsu, you know he's right about the bicycle riders. Most of them are town planners, so doubly cursed.

Bonmot, it's time to get off the train mate. You'll have to admit to yourself your lack of sound judgement in picking the wrong team, but it is time.

It's been a great & profitable ride, but the train is heading for a major crash, very soon, & those left on it, too greedy to get off perhaps, are going to drown in all the spilled gravy.

Do jump now, before it's too late.
Posted by Hasbeen, Friday, 9 December 2011 10:45:45 PM
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[Deleted for abuse.]
Posted by Geoff of Perth, Friday, 9 December 2011 11:00:49 PM
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Hope you'll excuse me for "playing the man" in this instance, but I was curious about just how much credibility Christopher Monckton can claim on this or any other issue.

I note he is referring to himself in this article from Santa as (clever) "Lord Monckton"...and "His Lordship".
According to this epistle from the UK Clerk of Parliament, he is not and never has been a member of the House of Lords.
http://www.parliament.uk/business/news/2011/july/letter-to-viscount-monckton/

His scientific credentials appear just as nebulous, as he's often challenged by fellow skeptics as well as scientists.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/sep/21/climate-scientists-christopher-monckton

Surely we're entitled to question the credibility of the author when his article is the point of departure for discussion.

I'll just add that I agree with others here that merely taxing carbon seems just another way of creating a new market without tackling our excess consumption.

Peter, You'll be thrilled to learn that the eurozone has voted to further centralise power to Brussels over member countries taxing and borrowing capacity.

Interesting times.
Posted by Poirot, Saturday, 10 December 2011 9:41:51 AM
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the sky is falling
the ozone hole is expanding

you all gonna get birdflue
no your going to get bird/swine huh-man hybreed flue
get ya shots eh wot?

the year 2k bug will kill ya globe
your goiong to get mad dog mad cow diss ease

im sick of the spin
''Put another way, whilst I certainly don't believe
in human induced catastrophic global warming - the consequences of global warming even at 2 degrees C by 2100 will be serious enough.""

yep two degrees
so whats this 2 degres mean?

so if its going to be zero
instead its minus 2 degrees

or if its gonna be 50 degrees
its going to be 52 degrees

[with high humidity or low humidity]
with wind..or without

in the shade [under a tree]
or in the middle of that black asphelt car park

on the face of the reef
or reglecting off black ice or white ice

so whats the rule re ice melting
heat is taken in..or given out

so where is the heat taken in comming from
does this relate to the upconmming cooling period
[ie..if it wasnt going to go through its cooling phase
would it have ben 4 degrees..not 2?]

or how about the difference between winter temp..near zero
and summer at 50 degree

thats a 25 fold increase over and abouve the 2 degree

its spin folks
a way to say the sky is falling again
so we gotta tax you to death..so you dont suffer a long slow death

and heck we gotta build a spaceship at dubi
to escape to the moon...[its made of cheez
just give us more tax

we gotta bailout the bank
by borrowing it from bankers
so we can tax you..to repay perpetual intrest

and a capitalist cash cow..that bids up
for nice extra bonus..the price of ya carbon credit

6 dollars a ton today...
to 60,000 a ton tomorrow
then betting others money..to bet it goes up
without even having to own a signle carbon credit
Posted by one under god, Saturday, 10 December 2011 9:45:08 AM
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Yep, no wonder Australia is condidered a nation of dunder-heads in science and maths.
Posted by bonmot, Saturday, 10 December 2011 10:34:14 AM
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Yes, you're playing the man and not the ball Poirot, and it's not to your credit. I assume you realise that not all Lords sit in the House of Lords, so what is the point of your first point?

He's not using any claim to being a scientist as the argument behind this article, so I'm not sure what your point is about his scientific credentials.

In the past he's over-egged his publishing record and claimed to be a member of the House of Lords, but he's doing neither in this article, so I am not sure how it is relevant.

I should also point out that anonymous posters are in no position to question the credibility of what others say based on that person's credibility rather than their actual words.
Posted by GrahamY, Saturday, 10 December 2011 10:39:26 AM
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Yes Bonmot, led unfortunately by our academics, who's opinions are the best money can buy. It really is amusing to see how high they can jump when ordered.
Posted by Hasbeen, Saturday, 10 December 2011 10:43:03 AM
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I'm suitably chastised, Graham.

However, I also believe that an author's reputation and credibility precedes them, and influences the readers opinion as to the pertinence of author's latest commentary - just a personal foible.
Posted by Poirot, Saturday, 10 December 2011 11:12:53 AM
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Mr 'hasbeen', you really are out of touch - appropriate pseudonym.

Graham, as the overwhelming majority of OLO posters are anonymous and prefer it that way, it seems self defeating to change course mid-stream.

After all, it's not like real people with real scientific credentials haven't found the Lord Father Christmas' epistles egregious - numerous times.

Poirot, you say "an author's reputation and credibility precedes them, and influences the readers opinion as to the pertinence of author's latest commentary".

I agree but would go one step further Poirot. The author in question is a master at "playing the audience" (not just the man), much the same as what our media shock-jocks do, more so when they have a particular agenda and 'dumbed-down' audience to push, imho.
Posted by bonmot, Saturday, 10 December 2011 11:25:16 AM
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forgive them father
they know not the evil they think to know

fear has dulled their thinking
and paying money..is easier than changing their enegy use

especially when we subsidise their off peak power
with our cheap coal powers

and give them double credit
for the energy they made...when the sun shone
but steal ours..when their power source went off

guilt has blinded them
made them mind numb

thus they attack the mess-anger...
not the mess-age...nor hold that messanger to full accounting

its ok to lie
if your not..stopping the elites from..stopping their thievery

no tax without representation?
force the poor to pay for their own chains

tax them into bailing out
commercial corperate gamblers..capita-list's
banking on being too big to fail..to enshine..their speculative carbon credit gain underwriting..the communal good..into peonic poverty

tax the poor..to death..
for simply wanting to keep on breathing

let nature take its course
if consumers can spend..as they will chose..to spend..

[their own money..not mine]
tax the big ab-users

teach them
to live more simply
so others can simply live
Posted by one under god, Saturday, 10 December 2011 11:42:37 AM
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It is amazing how this great truth:AGW, is so afraid of challenges.
There is always reason why this or that critic should not be listed to.

There was an interesting article in last weeks Sun Herald about just how findings that run counter to the official AGW narrative are being
silenced,makes you wonder--or leastways, it should:
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/opinion/stars-party-as-we-burn/story-e6frfhqf-1226213210427

'Twas the last night at Durban, and all through the house.
Not a creature was stirrin, 'cept a li'l Belgian louse
The reparations list complete & plastered on high
In hopes great cargo-cult lord would rain manna from the sky

And the delegates were snug in their fresh maid beds
While visions of hand-outs danced in their heads.
And Ban-Ki in his ray-bans, and Gore in his Gucci
Had just settled down to chat in the Jacuzzi

When down in the lobby there arose such a clatter
I sprang from my bed to see what was the matter
Real Julia had arrive,with tan Tim in toe
That's Julia the green for those in the know

But her spiel killed hopes & sunk delegate hearts
"Was she really telling 'em it's time to play your part?"
Well they thanked her for industry that her tax sent their way
But told her "we don't understand your language" if you want us to pay

said "If there be no more freebies, Durban's no place for us".
"It's quick down that free beer, and on the next airbus"
"We'll confer with ole Ban-ki to see what he proffers"
"And check in next confab to see whats on offer".
Posted by SPQR, Saturday, 10 December 2011 6:04:05 PM
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Good poem SPQR, reminds me of the poetry of another OLOer.
Posted by bonmot, Saturday, 10 December 2011 7:46:14 PM
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Oh yeah, that opinion piece by Miranda Devine - same old same old.
Posted by bonmot, Saturday, 10 December 2011 7:50:32 PM
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Every time I get attacked personly on this site,I know I'm hitting a nerve of truth.Yu Yu is yet another in long list.He has no replies, only derision.

Russia has moved 3-4 Nuclear subs + 2 wars ships and armed Syria with X 300 advanced missiles which can destroy shipping.Israel is pushing for and attack on Iran under the lie of having not even one nuke while Israel has an est of 75-400 nukes.Iran says it has thousands of missiles than can stop most of the oil coming out of the Middle East.What will that do for a collapsing world economy?

Every time a US President comes here our leaders fall over themselves grovelling for approval.It is sickening.If we don't stand up to the war mongering elites in the West,they will take us down the path of destruction.Russia and China will no longer back down or accept the invasion of sovereign countries under the lie of terrorism.Putin regets not intervening on the Libyan invasion.

Ordinary people be they Jewish,Islamic,Christian or Buddhist have never wanted war.Only the psychopathic war mongerers who want absolute power crave war.Mostly they are our leaders.They have never stopped plotting and scheming throughout history to achieve their evil ends.

It is time all people around the planet rose up put an end to this insanity.

Live by the truth or die by the lie.
Posted by Arjay, Saturday, 10 December 2011 8:16:14 PM
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<< what kind of impact do you think a one metre rise in sea level will have on 50 million people living in the deltas of Bangladesh, for example?

Do you think it will have an impact on the number of 'refugees' arriving in Australia by boat, for example?>>

So by extension, if I should decide to build on a sandbank off Bondi, and get swamped. I would be entitled to a whole lot of compensation from your great green climate fund. And I might even be entitled to re-settle on your front lawn as a climate refugee.

Whooppee! I can see why this will be a growth industry--there must be a least a billion potential (ab)users in south Asia alone.
Posted by SPQR, Sunday, 11 December 2011 5:40:04 AM
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David
Okay, read that.

And what do you say it proves that is relevant to the Durban conference?

Or rather, obviously you think it does prove something relevant, or you wouldn't have posted it. And so obviously you don't recognise the glaring gaps in your line of reasoning, or you wouldn't have exhibited them so candidly.

The problem is that the whole AGW belief system just keeps on getting disproved, and just keeps on popping up again like one of those grinning punching clowns that is biased at base:
a) you haven't established that glaciers melting is happening because of man-made global warming.
b) you haven't established, and wikipedia doesn't even try to establish, whether the downsides of AGW would be greater than the upsides, and how you would know, nor even what data set you would need to start pronouncing on it, and
c) you haven't established whether the upsides of a policy would outweigh the downsides, and how you would know.

You haven't shown how you know that a voluntary response would not be better, all things considered, than a coerced response.

So once we again, all we get are endless presumption, and the belief that AGW's protagonists should have a privilege to tell everyone else to do, destroying people's freedom, livelihood, lives and the environment as they go.

And they go straight from a supposed problem to the conclusion that bureaucratic central planning of the world's climate and ecology would be better for man and the environment BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

You guys should be ashamed of your presumption and ignorance.
Posted by Peter Hume, Sunday, 11 December 2011 7:31:10 AM
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Graham,

Just a few points.

I concede that Christopher Monckton, as a viscount, is entitled to be addressed as "Lord" (even by Santa). I failed to express myself well in attempting to highlight his past intimations that he was "a member of the House of Lords."

I'm somewhat confused, however, that you wasted no time in admonishing me for "playing the man", while allowing numerous instances of the same treatment to go through to the keeper.

On this thread, Pericles, while arguing against playing the man, referred to the article's author as a"loony-tunes idiot" and a "self-deluding, arrogant Pommie nutter..."
Hasbeen posted this is response to Chris Wright's article:
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12994#224165

I reiterate my point that an author's reputation and credibilty precedes them in public life. My links were pertinent to Lord Monckton's credibility and his reputation as a commentator on climate science.

And if you provide a mechanism for people to post under a pseudonym, then perhaps it's a tad disingenuous to dismiss comments relating to authorial credibility because the poster chooses to avail themselves of the anonymous posture.
Posted by Poirot, Sunday, 11 December 2011 10:57:41 AM
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NASA is at the forefront of climate science, if they are wrong everybody is wrong. They have all the hardware and everybody else has pencils.
They blame carbon and c02 for changing weather patterns, but can not predict the future. They know that c02 in the atmosphere is at its highest levels for 160 thousand years. Carbon particles in the upper atmosphere are creating a green house effect. My idea is if we get rid of carbon caused by fossil fuel burning, maybe c02 levels will come down also.
Posted by 579, Sunday, 11 December 2011 11:19:42 AM
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579..[numbers]..quote..''My idea is if we get rid of carbon
caused by fossil fuel burning, maybe c02 levels will come down also.""

isnt that neat..keep it simple[kiss?]
so what about all them others warming gasses
like methane from home composting..and farts

or laughing gas..[nitouse oxide..
from putting phosphates onto our food crops]

one quater of which becomes nitrouse oxide..
far worse than carbon..these are just fine?
we wont trade in their damage to whatever c02 is supposed to be dam,aging?

how about cfc's..that put a huige hole up there
we were told that hole would let the heat in
too late to tax cfc's?

or sue the chemical agencies that put it there?

but kiss..right
blame one c02 source

all them pictures of that white stuff
[you know the guilt imagry]..
comming from smokestacks..]

THATS STEAM...!

next we tax steam?

or tax the rich
its time poluters pay

the more you use..the more you MUST pay
Posted by one under god, Sunday, 11 December 2011 12:23:52 PM
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Can't tax too much all at once, save something for next year. One thing may be causing the build up of the other. Get rid of carbon, and that will get rid of the green house roof so the c02 can disperse. maybe.
Stick to ya solar and you won't have to worry about the tax, or buy green power ,no tax.
Posted by 579, Sunday, 11 December 2011 12:45:58 PM
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Not the most convincing effort at self-exculpation, Poirot.

>>I'm somewhat confused, however, that you wasted no time in admonishing me for "playing the man", while allowing numerous instances of the same treatment to go through to the keeper. On this thread, Pericles, while arguing against playing the man, referred to the article's author as a"loony-tunes idiot" and a "self-deluding, arrogant Pommie nutter..."<<

That is, indeed, my opinion of the individual concerned.

However, I did not rely upon this opinion in order to contradict the points he made, which is "playing the man". I specifically set aside my opinion of his talents, in order to look at the arguments he put forward. Which is "playing the ball".

Someone's reputation is on many occasions a pointer towards the quality of their arguments. However, it is not valid to use this reputation as the sole determinant of the validity of the points they make.

"Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise." (Cato the Elder)
Posted by Pericles, Sunday, 11 December 2011 1:59:18 PM
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Excellent, Pericles.....I like a man with a healthy sense of his own self-righteousness.

You play the ball, and not the man....

I'm sure Fiona Heinrichs would agree wholeheatedly.
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12210&page=0#210610

I take it then that your many posts on that thread are an example of you "playing the ball".

"You're as full of it as the next chap" - (my Aunt Edna - the Elder)
Posted by Poirot, Sunday, 11 December 2011 2:56:44 PM
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Christoper Monckton has his own agendas.While he did good deeds in revealing the plan for a New World Order aided by our CO2 taxes and the lies of AGW,he also is part of the Royal Aristocracy.

Note that recently Bush and Blair have been found guilty of war crimes in Iraq at a Kuala Lumpa high court.The Royals have shunned Blair since it is now unravelling.

The elites are in disarray because their plans for Global Govt have been revealled.Notice that the Greens and Bob Brown are all for " Global Governance."The Zionists and their nutters want to take us down the path of war.They are all caught between a rock and a hard place with Occupy Movements and the revelations that 911 was a false flag terrorist act.

The elites backed by their banks counterfeiting our currencies want a communist form of Govt since this elimates the middle class who are a threat to elite power and for the Greens,because we consume too much and destroy the environment.

The elites have never engaged in true competition.Competition is for the us,the 99.999%. Nathan Mayer Rothschild "Competition is a sin." The fractional reserve system of banking (counterfeiting) has been their golden goose which has the West enslaved in debt.

So where to these Banking/Wall St elites go from here? If the people gain assendency,many are looking like going to gaol or worse for a long time.Prof William K Black says the evidence exists proving that 90% of the Fannie and Freddie loans were fraudulant.Your lost super money but it did not evaporate.It can be redeemed.

The whole system is now totally corrupted.So for the elites it is either face us and justice or go to war with China and Russia.War will be their escape.
Posted by Arjay, Sunday, 11 December 2011 4:00:40 PM
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Just goes to show, doesn't it, Poirot.

>>You play the ball, and not the man....
I'm sure Fiona Heinrichs would agree wholeheatedly.
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12210&page=0#210610<<

And I thought I was being very kind and gentle with the lady. I even assured her that she has a fine career ahead of her, so long as she didn't listen to all the sycophants goggling at the marvel of a literate 23-year-old.

>>I take it then that your many posts on that thread are an example of you "playing the ball".<<

Yup.

The bulk of that thread was a bunch of Fiona-boosters trying to justify the flimsy logic and rickety structure of her chef-d'oeuvre. Plenty of ball-playing there. The insults I gathered along the way were quite stimulating too, and very reassuring.

Thanks for reminding me.
Posted by Pericles, Sunday, 11 December 2011 4:50:31 PM
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Peter Hume. You will sooner or later have to admit that global warming is actually taking place. It might be debateable what effect mankind has on it, but logic would suggest that you can't continue to pump large tonnages of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere without having some effect. It would therefore be prudent to do something about reducing our dependence on fossil fuels including natural gas, not only because of the carbon dioxide, but also because future generations will need access to these diminishing resources. Father Christmas and his mates will ulimately have to back to using reindeer and huskis instead of the Skidoo.

David
Posted by VK3AUU, Sunday, 11 December 2011 5:23:53 PM
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David with all the recent research showing that higher levels of CO2 allow plants to be more productive, with less water, rather than paying a carbon tax, we should start charging all these third world states, particularly those breeding like rabbits, for the co2 we put into the air to help them to support their population, with more productive farming.

It's time to start locking up the perpetrators of this fraud, & the elites trying to force their version of world government on the rest of us. It is treason you know, & should be punished.

Even the leaked IPCC report is predicting no warming for at least 3 decades, what more do you need to help you wake up.
Posted by Hasbeen, Sunday, 11 December 2011 5:41:10 PM
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If there is no warming, then pray tell, why are the world's glaciers melting.

David
Posted by VK3AUU, Sunday, 11 December 2011 7:42:00 PM
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David, this is the so called leaked IPCC report. I got it from the IPCC web site. It was officially released on 18th November.

http://www.ipcc-wg2.gov/SREX/images/uploads/SREX-SPM_Approved-HiRes_opt.pdf

I understand anti-global warming bloggers got a copy on the 14th November.

Rather than taking things out of context as our usual conspiracy theorists tend to do – read it yourself and make up your own mind.
Posted by bonmot, Sunday, 11 December 2011 8:22:14 PM
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Aaah … the soooo publicity-seeking Monckton again! His own peers have vetoed him. He apparently knows more about science than the actual scientists. The best way to deal with Monckton is to ignore him. Folks, he is not even one of us to sweat over his unscientific & outrageous climate views. Stay back in England, Monckton.
Posted by Jolly, Sunday, 11 December 2011 8:59:36 PM
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Bonmot, thanks for that. The trouble is that once a conspiracy theorist, always a conspiracy theorist, and no matter how much hard evidence is placed before them, nothing can make them amenable to reality. It is like trying to convince a creationist that the world is somewhat older than 6000 years, it just isn't ever going to happen. None are so blind as those who will not see.
Posted by VK3AUU, Sunday, 11 December 2011 9:00:09 PM
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vk3auu - once again accusing people of his favorite conspiracy, that climate skeptics do not believe the climate changes, or that it is getting warmer.

Of course the climate changes and it is getting warmer, naturally, since the last ice age.

There may be some additional input from land clearing, but the fallacy that increasing atmospheric CO2 is linked to AGW is quite suspect and certainly not proven.

Will a huge tax in Australia fix this situation? Highly unlikely and I wait to see if the income from the tax is used for anything other than political pork barreling - the ALP have no interest in the world beyond being in power.

Glaciers melt, well yes, I believe 10 out of 5,500 are melting in the Himalayas .. man the canoes!

So what? We have had an increase in temperature world wide of less than 1 degree C in the last 150 years, which sounds pretty gosh-durned stable to me .. but I'm not prone to hysterics. Even if they all melt, that's life and it goes on and we will adapt.

TBC 1 of 2
Posted by rpg, Sunday, 11 December 2011 11:40:59 PM
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2 of 2
I'd prefer to see us all adapting to the climate, rather that this folly of trying to keep it at some arbitrary temperature setting, which appears to be what the majority of AGW believers want to do.

So accustomed are we in daily life to controlling things, surely we can control something trivial like the climate? (that's sarcasm)

The believer reaction is to always lambast the skeptics, as if that will convince anyone, I'm sure it makes them feel better. It doesn't convince anyway of anything except the believers have suspended logical thought processes.

How do you reconcile the whole Durban event is based on redistribution of wealth, with science? Clearly the attendees are all of 2 camps, those with $ and those without who would like some. So we're going to redistribute the wealth, and if you know your world history, you will know it will all end up back with the original owners of the money anyway.

You can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear, not can you bootstrap people to a higher level of civilization by showering them with money.

I do note though at Durban, the money is not going to countries directly, it goes to the UN first .. wow, there's a bunch of bureaucrats who will of course do the right thing.

I don't remember voting for the ALP to give up sovereignty to the UN, do you?
Posted by rpg, Sunday, 11 December 2011 11:42:08 PM
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Father God must do nothing but laugh at the mother earth worshippers whose doctrine and prophecies are shattered every day. It is quite amusing to read of their church gatherings in different parts of the world preching their counterfeit faith. No shame needed for that religion as every prediction proves false or deceitful. The money to be made by the high priests would even make crook American evangelist cringe.
Posted by runner, Sunday, 11 December 2011 11:47:37 PM
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"rather that this folly of trying to keep it at some arbitrary temperature setting, which appears to be what the majority of AGW believers want to do."

Really? Do you really believe that they care about the climate, Rpg?

Their only intention, and there never was any other, is to take your money and give it to their ilk, because they are unable/unwilling to make a living productively, like to waste on luxuries and especially cannot miss flying to conferences to talk a lot and stroke each other's egos. This specific operation, one of many, is code-named "AGW".
Posted by Yuyutsu, Monday, 12 December 2011 12:14:49 AM
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Some of you people need to go back and read my posts again and stop inferring what my positions are. I am not , repeat not, in favour of the governments carbon tax. It won't do anything to reduce emissions. It is aimed at the wrong targets. Having said that, something must be done to rein in our profligate use of resources.

I agree that there is a possibility of some natural warming taking place, but because of the large input by humans, there is more than a possibility of there being an anthropogenic effect as well. I cannot see any possibility of this effect being reversed until the world population is reduced. We may well run out of resources before this happens at some time in the indefinite future. Current forecasts of a slowing of the population increase seem a bit nebulous, but it doesn't appear to be happening just yet. The birth rate is slowing, but modern medicine is increasing the survival rate. Please note that I don't advocate any deliberate killing of anyone just to accomplish this.

Despite what Runner believes, nature, not God, might well intervene and the survivors will be those who adapt best to the changed environment, as has happened in the past in the evolution of homo sapiens. Evolution is a continuing process, it has not stopped and we may well turn out to be just a blip in history. There is a distinct possibility that ultimately the species homo sapiens may become extinct as did our predecessors. If we follow the advice of Lord Monkton and do nothing, we will just hasten the event.

David
Posted by VK3AUU, Monday, 12 December 2011 2:49:38 AM
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The whole CAGW-CLIMATECHANGE-CARBONPOLLUTION-CLEANENERGYFUTURE-(...x?...) is a damnable spectacle.

Latest Climate Gate 2.0 emails expose the depth of the corruption of institutional science. Scientists so easily bought to provide the fig leaf the governing class need. Multiplying of bureaucracies, fanatical tax and spend, regulatory control over every energetic movement in society - and the goal? impregnable power, creation of a kind of hereditary caste. And the war they wage is against us, in whom they've bred apathy, disengagement, and atomistic disempowerment - especially by allowing a sickening flood of sexual pollution, state dependency, regulatory attacks on fatherhood and marriage, free speech and our Christian tradition. Non-liberal threats to liberal dominion.

They know how to assure their own survival and that of their family and friends.

Lawless and arrogant they've become utterly disconnected from reality e.g. Wall Street http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/2011/12/10/the-cult-of-wall-street/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=the-cult-of-wall-street

And the various public broadcasters and their group think? of their statutory obligations? they haven't hesitated to wed themselves to the public scandal. http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/12/08/the-bbc-and-climate-change-a-triple-betrayal-ho-ho/#more-52709

There'll be a reckoning, and I wonder if they don't know it deep down which is why they're in so much of a rush - they don't have much time.
Posted by Martin Ibn Warriq, Monday, 12 December 2011 7:49:38 AM
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Father M’lord, you have made my Christmas >>

http://www.youtube.com/user/potholer54#p/a/u/1/9K74fzNAUq4

Followed by;

http://www.youtube.com/user/potholer54#p/a/u/0/1xx5h1KNMAA

Ergo, the “Monkton Manoeuvre” - with 12 days to go, you gotta laugh!
Posted by bonmot, Monday, 12 December 2011 5:38:54 PM
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It makes you wonder from what mental illness the good lord is suffering. His acolytes must be similarly affected. He seems to be quite adept at continually shooting himself in the foot. However, it is nearly Christmas so we must be charitable.

David
Posted by VK3AUU, Monday, 12 December 2011 7:12:18 PM
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VK3AUU David writes

'Despite what Runner believes, nature, not God, might well intervene and the survivors will be those who adapt best to the changed environment, as has happened in the past in the evolution of homo sapiens.'

The nation of Israel which was much smaller in number than many others throughout history makes a mockery of your theory.
Posted by runner, Monday, 12 December 2011 7:25:16 PM
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I have little time for the denialist brigade who think because they can equivocate over the ultimately uncertain causes of global warming they may continue business as usual. But I'm getting even less tolerant of those who accept the science of AGW--even the scientists--but refuse to look critically at the economics of the carbon tax. I've posted again and again that a carbon tax is untenable because it's based on economic growth, and economic growth means increased carbon emissions. This is not rocket science! So why are so many adherents of action on AGW uncritical of an unviable method? Just as the deniers deny for the sake of business as usual, so do the adherents of global warming and a carbon tax base their stance on business as usual. Neither side wants to acknowledge the need for RADICAL change.
Posted by Squeers, Monday, 12 December 2011 7:33:39 PM
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Squeers
The point is: the science is the science - science really isn't the issue - despite the shouts to the contrary.
What is at issue is politics, or economics, or religion, or culture - take your pick and you're on the button.
That is why the IPCC summary reports for policy makers can't change what the scientists have said, let alone their findings (how can they, they're not scientists).
That is also why the UNFCCC is a difficult negotiation process, because all of the above (except the science) is negotiable.
Sure, look at the economics, look at policy, look at each others' arm-pits - they all do. But that does not change the science.
Yes, radical change (a paradigm shift) is needed - but it ain't going to happen anytime soon.
In Oz, if some of the tax will go to investigating and implementing an alternative energy future to fossil fuel burning, I'm all for it. However, it seems too many caveats have been negotiated to get people/businesses on side - difficult for a minority government.
Abbott and Co would be in the same position but couldn't negotiate out of a wet paper bag, as we have seen - NO, NO, NO and NO!
The real failure (as I see it) is in getting the message out there.
Despite the recalcitrance by the naysayers, what we have is far better than the alternative, in my opinion.
Posted by bonmot, Monday, 12 December 2011 8:08:45 PM
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bonmot,
I have no argument with the science, and the equivocation I alluded to is in the nature of the complexity of the beast--that the denialists exploit and the populists lap up. But I differ with you that we should accept whatever action we can get. Action has just been postponed, again! this time till 2020, and guess why? Because we have to get the global economy in better shape first--that is growing again, uniformly--with the US on top.
This has got nothing to do with sniffing armpits. I'd welcome the the carbon tax if I thought it was even a long-shot at addressing AGW, but it's not. It's an all or nothing gamble, wishful thinking. It's betting the farm that new technologies (driven by greed) will somehow transcend the simple equation that economic growth means material growth means carbon emissions.
It is irresponsible to knowingly accept pissling pretentiousness as action on climate change, and naive to see it as ingenuous.
Certainly some action would seem, surely, to be better than no action, but a solution that reinforces the cause--as the solution!--is worse than leaving the sore to fester and appal the common gaze. The carbon tax only buys the present malfeasance more time, whilew filling its coffers.
It should be the job of economists to inform scientists of this fact, that carbon emissions are the entropic effect of economic growth, but economists are the most biased, myopic and unreflective professionals of all.
The paradigm shift you're so eager to dismiss is what you should be promoting.
Posted by Squeers, Monday, 12 December 2011 8:48:29 PM
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Would you agree that an essential part of the paradigm shift needs to reverse the "one for mum, one for dad and one for the country" that Costello introduced, but which the Labor party seems to be following with all their baby incentives.

David
Posted by VK3AUU, Monday, 12 December 2011 8:59:54 PM
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It's a dilemma that society (in general) and their respective leaders (in particular) can't seem to come to terms with.

No more so than in the so called "developed" world, and those who aspire to 'what we got'.

Yes, we should have that shift, but it ain't going to happen anytime soon because 'we' are too warm and cozy with what we got and 'they' want.

Perhaps 50 - 100 yrs down the track (as projected) when those projections come home to roost we will make that shift - but it will cost more.

What is needed is a convergence of thought. What we have is a divergence. Example: hard right vs hard left.

The best way of moving forward is a meeting in the middle - with respect for all views, centrist if you like.

It definetley won't happen with Abbott or Milne (Brown's successor?) - diametrically opposed, for opposition sake.

It may happen with a progressive Liberal (e.g. Turnbull) or the current mob - time will tell.

I don't have much empathy for economists, but they have more sway than scientists, as you suggest and is as has been played out. We can't change that.

It's late, I'm going to bed.
Posted by bonmot, Monday, 12 December 2011 10:19:18 PM
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