...Angela is obviously beyond saving. The effort by the state to claim the moral high-ground, using prosecution as a tool to condemn the individuals of a society, enthusiastically encouraged to abandon moral rectitude,( which the state itself encouraged), by decriminalising prostitution; then, little wonder, the Angelas of this life seek rewards in money for sexual services. The current unworkable laws allowing the free-run of prostitution, prove again to be a “laughable” failure!

...For once I agree with the author!

Well, the author does not agree with your bizarre interpretation of the situation.
Jennifer

An excellent article highlighting the plight of genuine victims of abuse. The poor child was let down by everybody in her life.

It also throws into relief the qualitative difference between such an experience and the minor issues that some people try to pass off as "abuse". Being "fearful" is a long way from being systematically raped over a period of time by dozens of men, yet it is now enshrined in our Family Law as an equivalent cause for action.

"1) For the purposes of this Act, family violence means violent,
threatening or other behaviour by a person that coerces or controls
a member of the person’s family (the family member), or causes
the family member to be fearful."

The fear doesn't even have to be reasonable...

There are going to be more cases in which Mum and the boyfriend do horrible things to children in their care, simply because there are going to be more fathers who are completely removed from their children's lives when the mothers of their children say terrible things about them in court, knowing them to be untrue and knowing there is no penalty for doing so.

It's not as bad as prostituting a 12 year-old perhaps, but it's still despicable.

Jennifer:

...Where I agree with your article, is in its defence of Angela as a victim. Where I believe your article strays from the “point”, is not to consider the users of the underage prostitute, as victimised innocents. My post criticized recent changes to laws covering prostitution, by the act of decriminalising the “sordid” industry. So effectively, what has happened in the “Angela” case, decriminalisation has abandoned the “Angelas” of this society, to the free and unregulated market for sexual services.

...Not once in your article do you mention this failing. A failing you, in your position, (you could only engineer by neglect to mention), for the sake of the greater claim you make, that the users of a prostitution service, openly advertised in a local newspaper, were not victims as well, but very low individuals who should all be “whipped” by the law for an act of inadvertence. You have exposed your “crocodile” tears by the omission, and again I expose a hidden agenda often laying shallow below the surface of "pretend" human rights abuse, or some-other such nonsense, bleating loudly from your articles.

I agree with the author, in that this poor child should not be obliged to attend any more court cases, and indeed I feel it would be difficult to get a conviction anyway, given the horrible circumstances.

Some of these 'men' who paid for sex with this girl may not have known they were committing acts of pedophilia, but some must have known she was under 18.

My hope is that all those men contract a deadly disease whereby their penis shrivels and falls off...

Prostitution is a lucrative business, and in demand. It is probably what we do not know is why this 12yo could pass as an 18yo. You can not advertise sex for sale in vic without a code number so the relevant bodies now who is doing the offering. The parents or guardians of this girl need to be dealt with by law, that is where the blame should concentrate. Sus your punishment is out-there but there can be circumstances, maybe.

is Angela another fatherless child or if not why is not he in jail?

No Runner, the child is not 'fatherless', as all children must have a father in order to create them in the first place.

I'm assuming you think that the mum and her boyfriend prostituted the 12 year old because there was no 'real' father involved in her life?
We don't know that do we?
You are just making assumptions as usual.

I have no doubt there are many prostitutes out there who have fathers in their lives.
It doesn't always follow that having married parents will 'save' you from such a fate...

Religion twists the mind, it doesn't allow for rational thinking. To get an unbiased opinion, do not ask runner. What would make parents do this to a kid, drugs, alcohol, cigarets, All i know is they have to be dealt with properly.

It was actually "Angela's" mother and her mother's boyfriend who prostituted her. "Angela" gave all the money to her mother for her drug habit.

"Angela" is now being cared for by her father.
Jennifer.

The first priority must be the young girl in this terrible travesty. As outraged the public might be that these men go unpunished, these feelings should not override the future wellbeing of the young girl.

Outrage is understandable, so is the notion that many of these men must have willingly participated despite suspecting or knowing the child was underage. The burden of proof in these cases is almost impossible to discern and that burden no doubt would be carried primarily by the victim had trials proceeded.

"Respecting “Angela’s” decision not to participate in the legal process is a more urgent moral imperative than society’s right to pursue the offenders. Society must not exploit this child’s misery in order to demonstrate some kind of moral evolution."

That paragraph is really the crux of the matter and as the author points out, many grown adult women choose not to report rape or abuse, why a child to act as society's moral crusader in the same circumstances is unrealistic.

Runner....I just love you bloke:)...NO! I really do..lol..you said "is Angela another fatherless child or if not why is not he in jail?".......lol...I wondering about a hell of a lot of Catholic priests:)

Runner? Do you condone the actions of your be-loved bretheran?....meaning...where does your faith fit in with your judgement's of other, and why do you not look at the thought processes of the shame sites....I mean:)...would you like to see all the pedophile Christan's that have gone before the law?

He will never answer me:).......

CACTUS:)

Susi writes
'It doesn't always follow that having married parents will 'save' you from such a fate...' No but it reduces drastically the chance of being abused.

579 writes

'Religion twists the mind, it doesn't allow for rational thinking'
Actually you demonstrate otherwise.

Catcus asks

'Runner? Do you condone the actions of your be-loved bretheran?. '

No I don 't condone Christians or god deniers acting in abominable practices. I am glad that you finally agree in absolutes.

Look runner, I'll clean my words up a bit with, ( there's good and evil in all of us:) There:)...its all better:) Iam sorry, but when ever I hear the words " victim "...an avalanche of thoughts just overwhelms me from the religious treatment I was.....I JUST cant go on:( ( pass victim myself of much which is considered a victim just for where I was born or what part of QLD I ended up in, which doesn't mean all morons are morons:)...Hello Hervey Bay:)....Sorry:) private joke:) Runner...some of the religious people in Hervey Bay actually take there eyes off the road "with children in the cars with them" and its all just to show their dislike to my posts:)

Yes Runner, your people that believe in the great all-mighty are taking there eyes off the road and in-dangering other road users just to show me how small these country minded drop-kicks are by doing this in-sane act.

"Social and legal demands of victims of abuse"......some of you don't know the haft of it:)

But of course this a fictional story:)...or is it?

To some of the Hervey Bay people, your behaviours is being monitored and now all of Australia now knows what a bunch of w...kers some of you are:).......but taking your eyes off the road while your driving....tis,tis,tis.....now the world knows your bunch of idiots.

This is just what people are like Runner....I hope you don't do the same:)

I'll be posting videos of these offenders soon:P....

Maybe Hervey Bay people, I'll tell the rest of the world how in the frist 4 weeks of coming to Queensland, that my 6 year old girl was molested by one of you, go on, you want to tell everyone about the miss treatment my family has endured by some of you;)....go on...make my day, and lets take it to court:)

But to the good people of Heavey Bay, From my family....I wish you all the best:)

Merry-Xmas.

CACTUS

...You refuse to engage me in debate, you know your argument is “misandry-passé”, In the above quote sectioned, …#we are not blinded by our outrage against these men#….Well, speak for yourself please. I, as many other unsuspecting males believe that, when prostitution was decriminalised, the legal right for men/women to avail themselves of the services of prostitution, is a perfectly legitimate and legal activity now.

...In the case of “Angela” Justice has been served on the offenders of child abuse, and are serving lengthy jail sentences: Both now serving sentences in the vicinity of ten years in prison.
None of the men availing themselves of the services of prostitution offered by “Angela” have been presented as paedophiles. They are simple victims of the inadvertent need for the services of a prostitute, advertised in the classified pages of the “Hobart Mercury”, where she was “masquerading” as an eighteen year old prostitute.

...Since now, Governments appear so disinterested in the consequences of child prostitution, very little evidence is available, through lack of funding, to allow critical analysis to determine effective solutions to the problems of the “Angelas” in society, since little research is available to specify the true extent of the problem.
Jennifer, if you wish to ply the “blame-game”, keep it honest. It is NOT the male users of a legal and legitimate service, advertised freely in ALL local newspapers, offering the unsolicited services of prostitutes, but lack of Government accountability, that forms the problem here.

...It is only the Government with the power to change the law, and it did, across all states: Just as homosexuality is now legal, so too is prostitution legal. Same rules Jennifer. So obviously you are unhappy with the fall-out in this case!
Surely even you can see the difficulty created for the judiciary of the entire country, by the legal mess which is the “sex industry”.

Cont:

cont:

…And to conclude, here is a headline from the weekend “Australian” to nail the point: “Seoul, Canberra clash on sex trade”.
In the interesting article, South Korean officials want to send prosecutors to Australia to help investigate “large-scale prostitution rings” operating in Australia. In South Korea, prostitution is illegal, but our liberal view dictates, it is a “human-right” for young Korean women to enter Australia on a “working holiday visa” and engage in prostitution in our brothels.

...If it wasn’t for grossness of men and their insatiable need for the sexual services of a women, all this messy sex business would disappear, do you think Jennifer?

Diver Dan, I can't find anywhere in my article where I blame any man who availed himself of the sexual services advertised by "Angela's" pimps.

The article wasn't about defending these customers either. Neither was it a rant against the sex industry.

Perhaps this explains why I haven't responded to your demands that I respond to issues I didn't write about.
Jennifer.

diver dan, I'd suggest reading a few other articles by Jennifer (and some of her posts) then have a think about your take on her writings.

Jennifer isn't one of that group of writers who's theme is the evils of male sexuality. More often than not it's on the problems with the writings of those who do find male sexuality ever so distasteful (or those determined to see a rape scene in any depiction of female sexuality).

Take some time, read some of Jennifer's other articles, then read this one again.

R0bert

Stop wasting resources on child sex abuse, you can't prevent 99% of it. However throw the book at the mongrels who consciously have sex with minors. Sick bastards I say.
From what I have heard throughout my miserable life the majority of sexual deviates fall into the Law, showbiz, education fraternity hence not many convictions due to the Government backed network of protecting these pillars of society.
As long as Australians continue on the path of not speaking out for fear of repercussion then it'll be that long before we can even entertain the thought of improvement. We need to get away from this protecting the hoods & up-front condemning of the victims. The mongrels get every ounce of the benefit of doubt whereas the victim is afforded none.
People need to stop jumping on the bandwagon & start thinking instead. There's no chance of change without changing our mentality which has become very very poor indeed. Irresponsible editing in the media & too much focus on frivolity are one of the main causes of our society. Reality appears to be treated as if it were a deadly decease & then we wonder why our children are abused & go off the rails. Kids will not wake up when the parents are in a constantly off the planet. Theirs are the kids which are being preyed on.

...#Diver Dan, I can't find anywhere in my article where I blame any man who availed himself of the sexual services advertised by "Angela's" pimps#.

...Nowhere in particular-everywhere in general, Jennifer my love….

Danny-Boy….

Robert:

She’ll be right on the night! I am onto it! I have read them all, worry not!

Cactus..2,

I am sorry that you or anyone else has been abused. This story was about a young girl of 12 being used by 100 men so that mum could pay for her drugs. One of those men was a Labour party pollie. You started your hateful rant about me condoning child abuse due to being religous. You have been watching the ABC to long.

Also I am sorry I have read your next post a number of times and have no idea what you are talking about in relation to driving with eyes closed in Hervey Bay. I have never been there but am told it is a lovely place.

At least we can both agree with have an adamic nature. You are at least honest about that.

Runner, thank you for your honesty.....a rare gift indeed.

"This story was about a young girl of 12 being used by 100 men so that mum could pay for her drugs"....I know Runner, hence the reply..

"( there's good and evil in all of us:) ....and in my experiences, I now fail to trust anyone, sad isn't. Although I try to remain optimistic that the better haft with-in us all, can be the one to search for.

As for Hervey bay:)....some religious people that have seen or I have spoken to directly, we have some disagreements about religion and its importance's with-in our community at large.....However, with with all commonsense....one should not take One,s eyes off the road because of religious views of difference.

"At least we can both agree with have an adamic nature. You are at least honest about that"

I couldn't agree more Runner, and well said:).....Merry Xmas to you.

CACTUS.

runner
It is my understanding that the MP was an Independent not a member of a major/minor party.

I wish we could throw the book at these mongrels but how to without further detriment to this young girl's life.

Pelican

Thanks for correction. He was booted out of the Labour party for crossing the floor apparently.

You write

'I wish we could throw the book at these mongrels but how to without further detriment to this young girl's life.'

Makes you wonder how many 'mongrels' have destroyed the lives of Asian girls after feasting on porn. No doubt it has desensitived thousands to all sorts of perversion including the ex pollie and his mates. The price we pay for 'freedom ' of depraved individuals.

As someone who formerly worked in child protection (now retired), I thoroughly concur with the views expressed in this article. The needs and wishes of the abused young person must be respected in all cases.

Dickers I concur, and as someone who admittedly doesn't follow every single legal proceedings where child abuse is concerned, I think it's really interesting, and positive, that consideration of the best interests of the girl concerned have been so pivotal.

I have to say though I feel a little uncomfortable about the leniency of the sentence, and I was surprised to read in the judge's statement that more than 50% of cases concerning sex with minors don't attract a custodial sentence. It may be the case that Terence Martin didn't know "Angela" was under 18, but I do think there are pretty compelling, socially conventional reasons why someone in his position should take it upon themselves to ask the question. Given that there is a pretty strong general understanding that the sexual exploitation of children is such a common problem, and perhaps given Martin's recent extensive sexual experience, including his history of viewing child pornography, I think it's reasonable to argue that it should have been incumbent upon him to question her age - and I think his not having done so represents criminal neglect. Giving him a custodial sentence on these grounds might have reinforced the fact that anyone considering sex with an "18 year old" has a duty to establish that for sure. Unless I'm very much mistaken this does become a stronger consideration in cases of people who have picked up "underage" girls in nightclubs for example.

In reference to the article though, yes I think it's important to recognise that we have no reason to suspect due process hasn't been followed, and that, difficult as it is, instead of making this particular set of perpetrators the scapegoats for our outrage, we should direct our efforts towards making sure this sort of thing can't happen so easily in the future.

...When Melinda Tankard-Reist parades herself for self-interest and personal profit, as a champion for abused women and female children, credibility for herself and her cause is suspect. And likewise, this author exposes the problem of academics lining up to fight for the cause of the oppressed in society as a rewarding lifestyle.

...As a simile, culling feral pigs for profit as the motive of the hunter, becomes counter-productive towards its truthful goal of reducing the numbers of destructive wild animals, when profit margins are squeezed by the absence of pigs, due to the success of the culling operation. Manipulation in the culling process will ensure the continued supply of pigs for profit.

...The urgent need of society, is the honest and unsullied voice to speak that honesty to those with the ability to change laws surrounding the sex industry, the free-for all sex industry which is the catalyst of continued abuse of women and children and now prominently men, the major legal users of the service of prostitutes.

...Decriminalising prostitution in Australia was the end result of a concerted campaign by the industry, using the trusty argument of human rights as its vanguard. Decriminalisation certainly assisted profits for the unscrupulous industry, which is now ably assisted in traditional racketeering, by the rewarding simultaneous deregulation of the industry as a consequence of decriminalisation.

Diver Dan,
I am not paid for articles in OLO and neither is anybody else.
Jennifer

Ah Jen,

But a few articles on OLO, then maybe some on the leftie Herald and Age, get yourself on a few NGA boards or even make your own one up, then a cult feminist following, and one day you'll finally gain your stripes as a fully fledged feminist social commentator. You might even get a spot on QandA to plug your latest book!

See, the pay day comes further down the track. Then whenever any equal pay argument or other such rot is published by the Masters of Outrage, there you'll be, 'Leading feminst Jenifer Wilson says....' this is symptom of our misogynist society!, blaming the victim!, you name it.

Woops, sorry, I thought you were Nina.

Perhaps Diver has you mistaken.

You seem to have a career and qualifications and stuff like that. You also seem to think there are two sides to issues and that you cant just designate the woman as the victim in every single social phenomenon.

I mean, just here, you've sacrificed the chance to be outraged on behalf of the sisterhood and have a dig at 'men's attitude to women',even forgoing the chance to assign blame to all men by linking them ever so subtly from rape, to prostitution, to porn, to mens desire for beautiful women, to, well all heterosexual men.

All for the pragmatic aim of helping a rape victim. Poor form! Booo!

I'm sure what 'Angela' really needs is to be paraded around as a 'survivor!', 'Sister Survivor!' a reminder to all men that they are that close to rapists anyway because they are attracted to women. She would be happy to endure years of emotional turmoil so we can make a statement to all the men in the world! The potential rapists who made this misogynist society!

I would be appalled if someone like yourself became a Feminist Social Commentator.

Diver Dan, you've got it so wrong it isn't funny.

Cheers

Thank you Houllie!

Feminist social commentator? That ship long since sailed, and besides, I'd rather have needles in my eyes.
Jennifer.

Jennifer Wilson ,

...This article is another of your usual emotive “rants” against men from the safety of the ivory towers of Academia. It is full of inconsistencies which I have highlighted, and your “quipped” responses simply prove your lack of ability to confront this issue from any practical angle. Your silence signals a lack of honest desire to address the urgent and critical need in our community, to address child prostitution, with all its complexities.

Diver Dan, you really need to stop and have another look. You are completely off the mark regarding Jennifer's writing.

I can't work how you could possibly get that view of what she is saying but it is seriously wrong.

"She’ll be right on the night! I am onto it! I have read them all, worry not!" http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12964#223832, if your continued pushing of the line you are taking then is any indication I don't think it will be all right on the night.

R0bert

RObert:

...All my comment is legitimate and consistent with the article. That is why it will be "right on the night". And would you wish to enlarge on this:

# if your continued pushing of the line you are taking then is any indication I don't think it will be all right on the night.#

...Please explain!

diver dan, Houellebecq and I have both tried to point out how wrong you have got it. There is nothing in the article which could credibly justify the views you are expressing about it. Nor in my view in any other articles that I've seen of Jennifers.

It's deals with reason's why some people can't or won't proceed with seeking justice, in particular the issues around a particular case but it also acknowledges the difficulties adult women and men face dealing with the aftermath of sexual assault.

"There are grown women who will not pursue their attackers in the courts. There are grown men who will not even admit they’ve been sexually abused, let alone name their abusers. Why then should anyone expect a thirteen-year-old girl to do this, not once, but over and over again?"

Not sure where to go with this, I strongly believe that you've got it really wrong in this case.

Not sure why but your current approach is extremist and only serves to attack one of the fairest authors writing on gender related issues on OLO.

R0bert

Nah, I think what we're seeing here is another OLO-inspired example of the way free speech is so valuable in helping us to reassess our most fundamental approaches to understanding social phenomena.

All this time we've been making policy to cater to the needs of the Rational Economic Man, but the thoughts presented in this forum by the likes of diver dan may well indicate that we've had the wrong end of the stick all along. Quite fascinating really when you think about it.

diver dan,
You seem to be angered because I didn't address the existence of the sex industry, and what you see as the victim status of the men who are its customers in my article.

You're right, I didn't analyse either of those issues.

The article was entirely about my disagreement with some people who've been making very public demands for the men involved in one particular case to be prosecuted, without thinking about the effect that would have on "Angela." I wasn't interested in broadening the piece to include the matters you raise, and I think they are deserving of separate articles anyway.

You want to engage me in discussions on articles I didn't write. If and when I write about the sex industry and/or men who are it's customers then I'll willingly engage with you in those debates. In this instance, I'm focussed on "Angela" and the reality that victims of rape, male and female, don't always want to pursue their attackers in court and they have a human right to make that choice no matter what anybody else thinks they should do.
Jennifer.

Jennifer,

...the pity is you did not engage me much earlier than now, and pursue a more productive discussion. Looking for consensus on a lopsided argument, as I believe you show the tendance to do, is not productive to the Angela’s of this life.

...I would be overjoyed to continue a rational discussion if you wish. On a positive note, I was impressed with your research on the case of Angela regarding “law” outcomes and the history of the event, but where it fell down and became disappointing, (one of my criticisms), was the lack of research detail to explain why the Angela’s of this life, at the tender age of twelve, come to the conclusion that prostitution holds an acceptable alternative to a more productive life, in a conventional sense.

diver dan, "at the tender age of twelve, come to the conclusion that prostitution holds an acceptable alternative to a more productive life, in a conventional sense."

Is there any evidence that Angela came to that conclusion?
Her mother and partner used her for that purpose apparently to support a drug habit, I assume with some form of cooperation but that's a long way short of a 12 year old coming to the conclusion that "prostitution holds an acceptable alternative to a more productive life"

A child who has apparently been raised by the sort of person who would use her own daughter as a prostitute to fund her own vices is likely to have some struggles along the way.

R0bert

diver dan,
There is no mystery about why "Angela" was in the situation. Her mother and her mother's boyfriend prostituted her, and used the money she earned to feed their drug habits.

I'm not willing to extrapolate "Angela's" specific circumstances to those of any other child who is prostituted.

I don't accept your premise that "Angela" or any other prostituted child has freely chosen the life.
Jennifer.

diver dan,

What an extraordinary statement...that this child has apparently "...come to the conclusion that prostitution holds an acceptable alternative to a more productive life..."

How do you reach such a conclusion? This child was manipulated and exploited. Where is there any evidence that her predicament was freely chosen? Every facet of this story points in the opposite direction.

Jennifer:

1. # I don't accept your premise that "Angela" or any other prostituted child has freely chosen the life.
Jennifer. #

…Well, at this point is the crack in your defence. (Interpretive care needed with this sentence)…Having been initiated into the “act” at an early age, (the key point), willingness for underage girls to prostitute themselves is not uncommon! Plenty of research confirms the fact, but so too do personal observations confirm the fact.

2. # There is no mystery about why "Angela" was in the situation. Her mother and her mother's boyfriend prostituted her, and used the money she earned to feed their drug habits.#

...Exactly my point! Justice for Angela is complete on this score; both the above are serving ten year jail sentences for the “crime”. Now, with this point behind, the next accusation was towards the users of a prostitution “service” freely and openly and “legally” advertised in the local Hobart Mercury: And I have no-doubt Jennifer, you are aware of this important and relevant “technical” point, of the sordid Angela affair! And I further wonder why you doggedly persist in your attempts to separate child prostitution from the Government initiated decriminalisation of prostitution, and its undoubted input into furthering child abuse and child prostitution.

...It becomes impossible to separate the problem of child prostitution and abuse from this subject when discussing the situation of a child prostitute. I would be appalled if someone in your role were unaware of this critical connection!

Poirot/RObert:

...I am not responsible for the sheltered existence of posters on OLO. If you wish to enlarge your understanding of the complexities of child prostitution, I would suggest a knock on the door of the “Juvenile Justice” department of the Queensland Police in Brisbane for a starting point!