@Pericles. You conflate theism with faith. It needs no faith to show that God exists, Aristotle did that 300 BC. Proving God exists is the easy part - trusting in Him, having faith in Him during the hard times is the hard part and where Jesus comes in.

To help you make the distinction this is a very good article. http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2010/09/classical-theism.html from a professional philosopher and expert on classical theism

Poirot, no I don't think its about potential. Its about what
constitutes a person, versus what constitutes a being. A sperm
is a being, an embryo is a being, a foetus is a being. Without
a human brain, you have no person.The term murder applies to people,
not beings. If the brain stops, you have a corpse, not a person.

Think of it like building a car. Without an engine, its not yet
a car.

Montgomery, if you reread Mishka's post of Friday 9.32 am, you will
know what I was refering to.

Toni being a god botherer will have trouble with gay union i suspect. It must be hard answering to a fictitious being. If such a person existed so many thousand years ago, what has it got to do with now. It impedes the mind, and distorts thinking for the wider community.

Mishka,

Off topic? Really?

The topic was consciense and you quoted diverse examples. I've responded to one of those as it was completely not relevant to a discussion of westerrn consciense and morality.

I then linked to Israeli lack of consciense simply because you raised Israel and Jewishness ... neither of which adhere to or practise our western morality.

You also wrongfully claimed Isreal to be a Jewish state... technically we westerners set up Israel to be a state containing a homeland for Jewish people. When we did that we stipulated the existing residents rights to property, religions, customs and freedoms were to be respected.

Why would you claim anti-semitism when the dancing was not of Isreali in general nature but only representative of one segment of Israeli society. The organisers were not anti-semitic. They were even handed in not allowing the Jewish misrepresentation of Israel as being a Jewish state. (Something you also do.)

Your history of contributions here show clearly you support Israel and it's propaganda and that you in the past have equated Israeli and Western morality.
It isn't important that you are not Jewish nor Israeli. What is important is that you are repeating the Israeli propaganda and it's big fat lies apparently without assessing such from a western moral viewpoint nor are you applying a western consciense.

You'd utterly condemn Israel aggression if you did those two things. Your intellect is obvious from your utterances so it is extremely unlikely it is coincidental or lacking deliberation that you show you confuse the two divergent moralities and continually try to promote Isreal propaganda.

Now what was you position in regard to those shackled and handcuffed 12 year old stone throwing Palestinian children?

In defence of Mishka against Imajulianutter's flawed criticism, I would add my two-bobs' worth. Imajulianutter accuses Mishka of "Israeli propaganda" but takes the opportunity himself of regurgitating long-discredited anti-Israel and somewhat racist propaganda. He asks "Why don't Jewish Israelis feel the same" in terms of opposing alleged human rights abuses against Palestinians.How does he know that they don't feel the same? In fact, every day there are Jewish Israeli protests in this direction (often resulting in High Court proceedings) via Israeli human rights organizations, media outlets (such as the newspaper Ha'aretz) and via joint Jewish-Arab organizations. Either he has not heard of these or has chosen to ignore them for propaganda purposes. Things are not black and white, one-dimensional or monolithic as he wants us to believe. His opinions reflect a rather immature view of this region. Yes, there are abuses such he describes, but these are viewed with disgust by many Israelis, just as the incarceration of our juvenile asylum seekers and juvenile "people smugglers" are viewed by many Australians (at least nobody levels a blanket accusation against all "Christian Australians" as being collectively responsible).Israel exists in a rather tough neighbourhood. Its level of abuses also needs to be compared (though not excused) with the current massacres in Syria, the ongoing murder of Coptic Christians in Egypt, and the torture of Fatah prisoners by Hamas in Gaza.

imajulianutter, I’m not sure you deserve a reply, but for the sake of others I will this last time.

Firstly, not all the dancers in the Machol Israeli Dance Club are Jewish, so I don’t see how the organisers had any right to demand that an Israeli group change their name to Jewish. They labelled this group Jewish, and that demonstrates their anti-Semitism even if it is untrue, perhaps all the more because it is untrue. When people send me hate mail calling me a “dirty Jewess” as they have done, that is anti-Semitism even though I am not Jewish, because they clearly see it as an insult to call someone a Jew. (Personally, I feel quite honoured.)

Israel was established as a Jewish state. Seeing as you seem to doubt this, you may wish to read the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel (May 14, 1948):
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace%20Process/Guide%20to%20the%20Peace%20Process/Declaration%20of%20Establishment%20of%20State%20of%20Israel

As for “those shackled and handcuffed 12 year old stone throwing Palestinian children”, I can only speak generally, because you haven’t given me a specific incident. I would note that you can kill a person by throwing stones at them, and you can certainly cause very dangerous traffic accidents by throwing stones at vehicles, so I don’t think stone-throwing is a minor offence. I have also seen 12-year-olds holding rocket propelled grenades in a war zone, so I am not inclined to consider all children harmless. No country is perfect, and I am sure Israel is no exception, but I can think of situations in which the shackling and handcuffing of 12-year-olds could be justified.

You have concluded that my morality is defective because I believe there is such thing as a Judeo-Christian basis to the Western tradition. I think your moral reasoning is defective because you judge everyone’s morality by their stance on the Middle East conflict. You have said I support Israel and its propaganda. I would dispute the propaganda part, but if you mean that I support the existence of the State of Israel then I plead guilty. I have no more to say to you.