The entirety of the Greek situation is too complex for me (or, I suspect, any layman) to fully understand. It does seem to me, though, that if the Greeks can choose to accept or reject the bailout, the citizens of the other Eurozone nations should have the same opportunity. How many Germans are really all that keen to tighten their belts in order to fund decades of decadence in the Hellenic Republic? The damage has been done, the other Euro nations have been happy to fund that damage and, now that things are coming unstuck, both the much-maligned Greeks and the 'innocents' elsewhere who profited from their financial mismanagement are going to have to pay.

Would booting Greece out be the best thing for the Eurozone? What would be the impact on France and Germany (and others) if they just cut their losses and walked away? How can they peacefully reclaim what is owed to them without destroying the hollow shell that is left of Greece?

I suspect that, in the end, it will be the average Joe in Greece who will really suffer either way. But if suffering means living like the rest of the world, working while you are able to work and doing a real job (rather than just a made-up public service job), paying taxes and putting your economy on the table rather than hiding it out of sight, is it really suffering?

Nobody likes losing a luxury, but if it's a choice between losing that luxury and losing the shirts off their backs, surely the Greeks would make the right choice? The real task here is to ensure that, if they have a chance to make the decision, the Greek people are given all the necessary information and none of the spin.

Not likely.

Otokonoko, you're right. The Greeks should have the right to choose if to accept or reject the bailout and the citizens of the other Eurozone nations, namely Germany, should have the very same opportunity.

You ask 'how many Germans are really all that keen to tighten their belts in order to fund decades of decadence in the Hellenic Republic'? Very few I suspect.

You query who will end up footing the real bill in the end. I for one hope it's the proverbial non taxpaying Costas and Eleni and not thrifty and industrious Helmut and Trudy.

But I wouldn't bet on it.

"Democracy" can only be stretched so far.

>>The Greeks should have the right to choose if to accept or reject the bailout and the citizens of the other Eurozone nations, namely Germany, should have the very same opportunity<<

The natural end-point of this argument for the "right to choose" can only have a fully definable end-point when everybody is allowed to decide for themselves, whether or not they want to be part of the restructuring. Those that agree, will pay out of their bank account. Those who don't can keep their money.

The only problem with this is that the very same people already decided to live in a parliamentary democracy, and to delegate responsibility for tough decisions to their elected representative. So, there is nothing undemocratic in allowing the government to do the job for which - presumably - they were elected.

So those people who chunter on that denying the people a referendum is a denial of democracy, are being highly expedient, and just a little deceitful.

The financial crisis that is presently happening is a complex topic, of which the average Joe knows very little. And the little they do know, by the way, has been fed to them by the media, which as we all know is a profit-driven branch of the entertainment industry. The issue is further complicated by the fact that the same people chose to become part of the European Union project - which was silly mistake, but which also carries some responsibilities that they cannot simply shrug off.

Well, they can, of course. But it would be a very selfish gesture, one that would not bode well for their economic future outside that community.

For the record, I think the European Union is a crock, in everything except its underlying concepts. In practice, it has been a bureaucrat's paradise, and a drain on the energies of its members.

The Euro, disastrous even in concept, let alone practice.

But you cannot unscramble eggs, simply by wishing that you hadn't picked up the whisk in the first place.

*So those people who chunter on that denying the people a referendum is a denial of democracy, are being highly expedient, and just a little deceitful.*

I think that there are two sides to that coin, Pericles. I personally
think that really large decisions, like this one, or like the carbon
tax in Australia, should in fact be put to a referendum. Or else
people are simply going to go on turfing out govts, which does not
really solve things.

*The financial crisis that is presently happening is a complex topic, of which the average Joe knows very little.*

Well yes, the average Joe knows that his opinion simply does not
matter, so does not bother to inform themelves. But its something
that struck me in a place like Switzerland, where people vote
quite often. I found that that average Joe down at the pub had a
far more sophisticated understanding of the issues, because there
were good reasons to understand them and inform themselves.

There are good reasons why the Swiss sat on the fence, never joined
the EU, but simply established some trade agreements. Both
politicians and industry lobbied heavily to join, but the average
Joe said no. Perhaps the average Swiss Joe, being better informed
because of reasons to be so, was not so silly after all