To ArthurS and Avw

Thank you Avw for pointing out ArthurS' complete ignorance on the history,geography and demography of Palestine. Every point you made correcting him is 100% correct.

There are more factual errors in his posting:

1. Jordan was part of Mandate Palestine from 1920-1946 when it was granted independence by Great Britain in very dubious circumstances. The Palestinian Arabs had achieved independence in 78% of Palestine before the Jews achieved independence in 17% in 1948.

2. True the Jews owed only 6% of the remainder of Palestine after creation of Jordan in 1946. But what Arthur S fails to mention is that the Arabs only owned 8%. Arthur S also conveniently fails to mention that more than 80% of the territory awarded to the Jews under the Partition Plan comprised what was then thought to be the arid Negev Desert - but which the Jews have since greened after thousands of years of neglect.

3. The Jews do not have effective control over 100% of mandate Palestine. Jordan has sovereignty over 78% of mandate Palestine, Israel 17% whilst sovereignty remains unallocated in the remaining 5%.

4. The Hashemite Kingdom of Transjordan became independent in 1946. Its name was not changed to Jordan until the West Bank was unified with it in 1950. This was done by a joint Parliament comprised of 50% Arabs from the West Bank and 50% Arabs from Transjordan. There was never any suggestion of trusteeship. It was an act of unification and residents of the West Bank accepted and became Jordanian citizens with Jordanian passports.

The kind of propagandist PLO rubbish spouted by ArthurS is indicative of how the history of Palestine has been turned on its head. Sadly people are brainwashed when they read this kind of nonsense day in and day out. I guess even ArthurS must have been similarly brainwashed.

I hope he may take the time to check out the many factual errors pointed out by Avw and myself.

To Yuyutsu

Hussein gave up his claim to the West Bank in 1988 because of pressure from the Arab League and the PLO. His right to reclaim it in the future was included in the Israel-Jordan peace treaty in 1994.

Jordan has allowed the Palestinian Authority 17 years to negotiate a settlement with Israel but to no avail.

The time is fast approaching when negotiations between Jordan and Israel will be the only way to resolve sovereignty in the West Bank and Gaza.

Dear David,

"The time is fast approaching when negotiations between Jordan and Israel will be the only way to resolve sovereignty in the West Bank and Gaza."

But obviously Jordan is not interested. That would be suicidal for them - the king knows it and is not a fool.

In that case, it's a dead end and it seems that the sovereignty issue in the West Bank and Gaza will not be resolved any time soon, perhaps never.

The question is, SO WHAT?
What's the big deal?
Why should this legal formality be so important that you write about it time and again in this forum (as if King Abdullah reads OLO...)?
Why this obsession with legality?
What could possibly happen if the sovereignty in those areas remains undefined?
Would it perhaps, for example, upset God or Allah?
Are we liable to some plague as a result?

Israel already left Gaza with nobody's permission and needs nobody's permission to leave the West Bank as well. I can't imagine that anyone would ever accuse Israel of leaving the West Bank without resolving all its sovereignty issues first.

It has been a while since I have taken the trouble to dissect one of David Singer's articles and as we are rained off a job today I thought I would give it a go.

First the reader must appreciate where the author is coming from. He is a determined purveyor of the myth that Palestine as the rest of the world knows it doesn't exist literally or historically, in fact his website is shamelessly www.jordanispalestine.blogspot.com .

There is little to be gained arguing this with him because even when he is shown to be clearly in error he has in the past completely ignored the facts as presented.

Just to be clear, maps the British Mandate for Palestine, while including the Transjordan area, identify the area west of the Jordan River as Palestine. This is similar to the French Mandate for Syria which included Lebanon and even for a time had its own flag.

The earlier Sykes-Picot Agreement had Palestine (the 'Brown area') completely separate from the rest of the British Zone of interest.
http://www.passia.org/palestine_facts/MAPS/Sykes_Picot_agreement_1916.htm

From the Jewish Virtual Library.

“William R. Hall, head of the Intelligence Department of the British Admiralty. He pointed out that the Jews have "a strong material, and a very strong political interest in the future of the country and that in the Brown area the question of Zionism… [ought] to be considered." “

That 'country' was and is Palestine.

TransJordan on the other hand was recognised as a state by the League of Nations in 1922, a quarter of a century before Israel.

So why does the author fight the facts so vociferously? Well if you want to lessen the condemnation of Israel for its abuses of the Palestinian people and its land grabbing it is far easier if one is able to say that the area involved is a small percentage whose sovereignty is still in doubt.

“Jordan and Israel have the credentials and the clout to peacefully resolve sovereignty of the remaining 5 per cent of Palestine that still remains unallocated between them”

Cont

Cont

The facts tell a different story, Over 55% of the land of Palestine was given to 30% of the population for a Jewish state. Of the main area left to the Palestinians, the West Bank, over half is now controlled by settlements and the IDF.

It may appal the more fair minded among us but to the author these propaganda missives represent very real battles and as the saying goes all is fair...

That is not to say that Jordan can not be a hugely positive force in assisting the future of the Palestinian state.

It spends far greater a percentage of its GDP on the health and education of its citizens than Israel, it also has a higher achievement ranking for its science and maths students, a greater proportion of scientific researchers, and a FTA with the States.

It is heartening to think of a sovereign Palestinian State free from savage boycotts, free from restrictive travel and commerce within its borders, free from house demolitions, free from water theft, free to collect duties.
With those freedoms and the assistance of a country like Jordan the future may be brighter than it has been in a very long time.

Dear David,

I noted the last time we corresponded that the frequency of your contributions had increased from an average of every 18 days to just 9. This one however comes 6 days after the previous. I'm still excited.

Just for the record the rest of the world thinks stopping settlement construction is a reasonable precondition for the Palestinians.

Steele, the world also thinks that now that the PLA has decided to ally with Hamas, that the cessation of the bombardment of Sderot is a reasonable precondition. The Palestinians have overplayed their hand, now with the EU/NATO deeply involved in combating extremist violence (and being threatened with more of the same from Q-Daffy duck), with continuing political violence in Syria and with Hezbollah denying the veracity of the UN's Special Tribunal's warrants (heading for a trial in absentia) world opinion is really starting not to care.

The non-Bedouin & non-Jewish inhabitants of the British Mandated Territory were deemed by the Balfour declaration to be entitled to effectively nothing. That is because the Balfour declaration(s) was/were written during WWI in order to garner support from the local populations and to reward those who assisted the British Empire during that conflict.

The Bedouin assisted somewhat, thus Abdullah was given Trans-Jordan the Jews actually sent troops to Gallipoli (Famously the Zion Mule Corps under Joseph Trumpeldor) and assisted, amongst others, the Desert Mounted Corps (Commanded by Lt.Gen. Henry Chauvel) when they captured the region.

The division of the mandate was anything but equitable, but it was successfully defended. Something I believe the so-called "Palestinian's" are yet to accomplish?

As to the West Bank, I honestly believe that if the PLA declares independence that Jordan will roll it up. They have no desire to have a whole new Lebanon on their doorstep, let alone allowing Syria to increase their influence. They don't like Palestinians, but accepting an independent, Syrian led Country on their western border is not something they could accept.