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The Forum > Article Comments > Jordan: Abbas offers Abdullah the Kiss of Death > Comments

Jordan: Abbas offers Abdullah the Kiss of Death : Comments

By David Singer, published 13/7/2011

Jordan’s King Abdullah is clearly worried about the future direction of his country - if developments over recent weeks are any indication.

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csteele,

You appear to give willing and uncritical acceptance - to the point of gullibility - of any misinformation emerging from the Palestinian territories.
Posted by Danielle, Friday, 29 July 2011 7:47:57 PM
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Dear Danielle,

In a grungy pizza joint at the moment waiting for a vegetarian with salami, don't ask, strange tastes, however I'm still a day away from being in a position to give you a considered answer.

Therefore this is very much on the fly but here is an Amnesty report from just last week.

http://blogs.amnesty.org.uk/blogs_entry.asp?eid=7854

You will have to tell me why this is disinformation.
Posted by csteele, Friday, 29 July 2011 8:02:28 PM
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Csteele:

“Yet again you distort and evade the point which is the historical extent of Palestine that was recognized by all parties, up until the carving up of the area by the victors, was pretty darn close to the boundaries set by the Faisal-Weizmann Agreement”

Which point did I distort or evade? Who exactly are those mysterious “all parties” that you are referring to, allegedly recognising the extent of Palestine prior to the carving up of the area by France and Britain?

The evidence you offer to support your claim is:

1. Sykes-Picot - a secret agreement between Britain and France dividing the spoils of the Ottoman Empire.
2. The short lived Faisal-Weizmann agreement between Weizmann and a representative of the King of Hejaz. The Palestinian Arabs were not a party to this agreement. Even the King of Hejaz himself did not recognise it. The agreement was later ruled invalid by the UN.

You state that “Ancient history plus the administration boundaries set by the Ottomans also support“ your claim about the boundaries of Palestine being consistent with the Faisal-Weizmann agreement. Let’s examine this claim:

During the Roman times the province included the area of modern Israel, southern Syria, parts of western and southern Jordan, and the Sinai. From Wikipedia:
“Syria Palæstina was a Roman province between 135CE and 390CE”
“Syria Palaestina was reorganised into three administrative units: Palaestina Prima, Secunda, and Tertia (First, Second, and Third Palestine), part of the Diocese of the East. Palaestina Prima consisted of Judea, Samaria, the coast, and Peraea with the governor residing in Caesarea. Palaestina Secunda consisted of the Galilee, the lower Jezreel Valley, the regions east of Galilee, and the western part of the former Decapolis with the seat of government at Scythopolis. Palaestina Tertia included the Negev, southern Jordan—once part of Arabia—and most of Sinai with Petra as the usual residence of the governor.”

continued...
Posted by Avw, Saturday, 30 July 2011 1:05:50 AM
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continued...

The Byzantines included Syria in their version of Palestine:
“During the Byzantine period, the entire region (Syria Palestine, Samaria, and the Galilee) was named Palaestina, subdivided into provinces Palaestina I and II. The Byzantines also renamed an area of land including the Negev, Sinai, and the west coast of the Arabian Peninsula as Palaestina Salutaris, sometimes called Palaestina III” (Wikipedia)

The Ottomans had the district of Greater Syria:
“Territory of the Greater Syria under the Ottoman rule in its final historical period included modern Syria, Lebanon, Israel, the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Jordan, and parts of Turkey and Iraq” (Wikipedia).

So perhaps David is indeed wrong after all. Maybe we should say “Jordan and Syria and Lebanon are Palestine”.

Not a lot of historical support for the old Faisal-Weizmann boundaries, is there?

“For David Singer and the Israeli Foreign ministry to keep banging on about Israel only being 17% of the 'former Palestine' is just straight out objectionable and needs to be challenged”

You are well within your right to challenge any opinion. You cannot, however, change history. David and the Israeli Foreign Ministry claim that Israel forms about 17% of the area of the original Palestine Mandate. This claim is correct.

As per my earlier ‘qualified’ statement the British Mandate of Palestine originally included Jordan as well as Israel. From Wikipedia:
“From the early 1920s to 1946, the British Mandate of Palestine had also encompassed Transjordan, ruled under different arrangements from the area west of the Jordan river. Israel inside the (1949) armistice lines composed about 18% of this larger area including Transjordan.”

continued...
Posted by Avw, Saturday, 30 July 2011 1:09:52 AM
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continued...

“…indigenous Jewish communities lived and thrived throughout the middle east before the proclamation of a Jewish state”

Not really. Throughout the centuries Jews (and Christians or any other non-Muslims) in the Middle East were always treated as second class citizens. While I can understand your concern and compassion for the Palestinian Arabs and your support for them to have their own state, it is unfortunate that your compassion does not extend to Jews and the establishment of their own state.

Jews have been indigenous to Palestine for thousands of years. Many of them were scattered throughout Europe and the Middle East by successive invaders, such as the Assyrians, the Babylonians and the Romans to name just a few. They are native to Palestine, and have been for well over 2000 years (or closer to 3000 if you believe the bible). Saying that they were part of a European colonisation plot is ignorant at best.

“Where is the artist who will paint a 'Guernica' of Operation Cast Lead?”

Cast Lead was a military operation to stop an enemy from firing thousands of rockets into Israel. 'Guernica' is no more applicable to Cast Lead than to any other defensive military action taken by any other free country against an enemy hell-bent on its destruction through violent means.
What we should instead be asking is “Where are the artists who can paint thousands of ‘Guernica’s for the thousands of acts of war and terror perpetrated by Gaza against Israel?”
Posted by Avw, Saturday, 30 July 2011 1:14:36 AM
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csteele,

I accessed the site you provided. I don't know what you are claiming.

Apart from the fact that no permit was applied for, although PECDAR would have been aware of this need, there is no evidence of investigating the matter further and in consultation with the relevant parties.

Also, applying your own criterion, the writer was Palestinian ...

I would suggest that you read: the Declaration on Principles for Cooperation on Water-Related Matters and New and Additional Water Resources, reports from the Multilateral Working Group on Water Resources (April 17-19, 1994), the Multilateral Working Group on Water Resources, (November 9, 1994) when Israelis, Jordanians, and Palestinians agreed on the discussion of principles and guidelines for cooperation on water issues. Also reports from the Working Group of June 22, 1995, May 16, 1996; especially the Second World Water Forum (The Hague, March 17-22, 2000)
Posted by Danielle, Monday, 1 August 2011 11:49:00 AM
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