i agree *its awsome..also re holy days

we both love and admire jesus[who lives even now]
and read his teachings many times with passion

but see how things have kept on moving along
now we have newer answers..than ones they knew 2000 years ago

to explain..quote..""The worms/get my body
but my spirit..is with God..""

appart from the reality gods spirit more importantly
is constantly 'with-us' we agree

""I have the assurance of the Holy Spirit""
who's inner voice wispers constantly to all of us
but lets just say we are aware of his loving guidance

differnt from ""and the word of God..(the Bible).""
men...like us wrote the words
by listening to their inner god

often though men can make error
god ALONE is perfect..[al-one]

'"God promises to provide me
with a new body""

yes a spiritual body of light
once we wearout the astral soul and physical bodies
on our way to his perfection...

[a journey not limited alone only to 'believers'..
[i..[and saul/paul]..for egsample were long dissbeliever's..
..till we saw the light/love/logic...via this mortal life]

""just like His when He returns.""
he has returned
to prove even a thief on a cross
'will be in heaven..this day'
as we all in time shall

""I trust in His promises""
me too

""...contained in His word""
words often try to use words..as s/words..[swords]
s/words are thus sacred..sacred/words..s/words

but as works rate higher
the mover of the pen*
is mightier than the sword
by reading the hily of the whole word
we can eat of the promise of his fruits

""and He doesn't change His mind."

he as in god
not he as in the holy christ

think of the holy trinity being you god and jesus
even though jesus revealed its a duet..[u and god]

GOD/good..*""He does love me
and He does love *every person""

and because he[good/god]
DOES love EVERY per-son
we must try TOO..to love EVERY person

""He has created""

yes AHHHmen

post/limits...lol
more later*

""but do they accept Him,
do they accept His gift...the gift of His Son??""

sadly no many refuse to..

but thats really the fault of overzealiousness
going beyong what the truth [good] of god]..reveals

just the facts themselves are ammasing
and simply by loving anything
of gods creations..

is good enough for god
who knows*..in time we all..''get it'..

hear the truth from the mouth of babes

""But believe what you will,
if it makes you feel better.""

because god is about love
not hate

about mercy
not shame

about grace
not blame

about truth/good..the light
so the blind dont lead the blind astray..in their darkness

jesus loved EVEN the sinner
who lives..by gods good-will ALONE*..

as much as he did
as much as we do

none before god
because he puts none..before any of us

but lets look at your..'words'

""Think about this:
No matter how much one prays,
does good,even goes to church 10 times a day,

if Jesus Christ/is not Lord and Saviour..in ones"..PHYSICAL?MORTAL>>"life..then they?..will not go to heaven-
/-have eternal life.""

ya think i want to go..*to a place
..where lies are made true?

if this type..is in heaven
to give-me hell

realise what lord..*means
what saviour..*means

your 'saved'...lol
from what...god is love..!

who wants to be 'saved'..from love?

""After all,if they don't..want to know Jesus here""

jesus is where good/love..grace mercy etc..*are..!

not with name calling
or only with the clever..in their own eyes

..you say know jesus...""in this life,""

well if you dont know..the true christ[love works]
if you arnt doing..the same things christ did
how well..do you know him..the *all loving?

what means grace
that has lost its taste..ie..[not grace]

if dont know christ
""then why would they want to..spend eternity..with Him?""

if christ
is anything like..his x'tians
who would want to..be?

anyhow

i love you brother
[both of you]

equal/as i love god
equal/as i love our christ
who told us..*we save ourselves..

{works not words]

love..is all we need
go the works..!

but if its..*not love
its..*not of christ
nor good/god.

aj/quote..""a habit of overstating things,
Like your “hard evidence”.

If that’s the case
then why don’t I believe in a god anymore?""

clearly like most you have rejected those
[NOT*]..'acting' as jesus did

[but that would be unfair to assume
now about you say it 'one more time"?

""According to your logic here
we can’t have much confidence at all in the court system.""

i dont trust the court system either
they make you swear truth on a bible
yet then the police lie...!

and because they backup each others lies
the courts are a farce...[lawyers judging the words of other lawyers..!

laws made by lawyers
passed intio law by other..'elected'.govt members
60% of whome actually practiced law...before making 'law'

statute law..isnt the same as criminal law
TRUE law needs an injured party...

under statuted law..we make criminal
that not truelly criminal...[courts are a blind joke]..

the bible has much to rebuke poor lawyers for..[woe]

""Like with you
logic in regards to our ability to reason,
there’s little use in us ever trying.""

thats the athiestic spirit
lie down and die...cause man made law
and thus you think man made god...[its a clever blind shuffle]
gods law casts no stones..[or it aint..[*gods law']

""...indulging in “mental gymnastics”
by building assumptions on top of assumptions.>>

Example #1 of a response to something I didn’t say.""

you dont need to say something
to be doing it

""It’s not the act of building assumption upon assumption
that made...*what you said “mental gymnastics”...

It’s the disjointed logical process
you went through to arrive at your conclusion.""

i think we all pretty much do the same due dilligence
but then make the misstake of judging others..by yet others

to wit judging god
by those who dont got a clue..that he is all love
all life....
all logic..
of the all..in all..

the most..treated..even by those
who claim him...as their own...yet
..who by their works prove they are in-deed..
far from his true/good/living/loving;essence..GO0d

dare i say
his true spirit

life/love/laughter
logic/licence/light

AJ,

It seems we always do this! We always claim that the other person is misinterpreting us and we always fail to reach mutual understanding. This disappoints me.

I said previously and I still strongly believe that the internet is a poor medium for this type of discussion, but nonetheless I try my best. I’ve had plenty of discussions with other users- Pericles and Squeers in the last fortnight. Discussions that haven’t resorted to this. I’m not sure what the problem is, perhaps the simplest explanation is that our styles clash in some way. But if you want to end the discussion here, go for it.

[Like with you logic in regards to our ability to reason, there’s little use in us ever trying].

No.

We can and definitely should try to reason. But we must always remember reason’s limitations and also the factors which limit our ability to objectively apply it, and if we fail to do so this will result in an overstated and naive level of certainty in our conclusions.

[I like how you used the term “bang on” as if what I said was irrelevant to the discussion, though. It provided an intriguing insight into your attitude to anything that doesn’t support your arguments.]

Yes. It was irrelevant to the extent that it distracted us from the real point of discussion, ie: The issue at hand.

[Yes and you saying, “Of course we would”, is not evidence. It’s an opinion. Yet you presented it as evidence and hence my “banging on”...

“This is the evidential weight, the reason I credit religion as a mostly peaceful force is the LACK of violence comparative to what I would expect given the sheer number of believers and their devout belief.” – Trav]

Let me clarify- The “evidence” is the figure of 6.98% of wars being categorised by expert historians in an encyclopaedia as religious wars. My expectation is my opinion- it is my interpretation of the evidence. And I haven’t yet seen any good reason from anyone as to why I should take on any other interpretation.

(cont’d)

[There are external factors that come in to play when people decide how they’ll interpret and cherry-pick the teachings of their religion (hence my poorly-worded point about people not following their religion 100%).]

Yes if that was your point then you did word poorly, but fair enough. I agree with you that there are external factors and that people cherry pick. Nonetheless this doesn’t really undercut my point that believers still, generally speaking, look to their religion for their guide on life and conduct and their religion will impact strongly on their worldview and lens for looking at life.

[But that doesn’t mean we let religion off the hook and lay the blame on human nature alone as you attempted to do.]

Well human nature is the one common denominator here. It’s the only primary cause because it stands on its own in terms of the importance of its contribution, and that level of importance can be identified in EVERY single case of war.

[ My point about taking one less motivation out of the equation still stands there.]

Yes, and your point is still just as unpersuasive as the first time you made it, due to the counter arguments I’ve made.

(cont’d

[Oh they’re very relevant because they are some of the main “proofs” used for the existence of god, they were derived by Christian thinkers, they are modified by Christian thinkers and are often presented by Christian thinkers]

Those types of arguments are inherently very subjective, because we’re talking about philosophical concepts like causation and contingency which are very much abstract and difficult to define, and so it’s difficult for anyone on either side of the debate to prove anything with a great degree of certainty.

But nonetheless as I already noted the failure or otherwise of any individual arguments for God’s existence still fail to provide support for your implication that one can’t be a believer and think intelligently about religious faith.

[But like I said, all the thinking in the world is of little use if you start with a presupposition that you do not permit yourself to deviate from in any way whatsoever.]

I agree. Same goes for you