As with many (perhaps most) debates, the opponents on this issue differ on fundamental ideas. The arguments are built on these fundamental ideas yet unfortunatly, the debates are highly rhetorical and emotional and they focus on the details, which takes away the focus from where the foundational points of difference lie.

Here is my take on the fundamental, underlying issue:

In my view, religions should be fundamentally kept away from the state to the extent that no religion should ever have the ability to CONTROL or RUN the government. I would never support a theocracy whereby a religious person, on behalf of their particular religion, effectively serves as the government.

But I do NOT agree that the government should NEVER provide any FUNDING or MONEY to ANY religion at all, or provide any level of support to any religion at all. As long as no religion has any political authority to make decisions on behalf of the government, and must instead lobby for it's own interests alongside every other interest group who must do the same, I am fine with it. And I will consistently hold this principle regardless of which religion we are talking about.

It seems to me that this is the fairest approach, if not the ONLY fair approach. If anybody can suggest a fairer system than this, and a fairer set of governing principles than this I'd like to hear it.

Another totally disinterested commentator with no vested interests that deliberately misses the point that for a lot of people, the primary issue is not even religion, it is *deception*...

This is structured continuing smear, and with a pretty thorough checklist of fallacies and rhetorical diversion tactics to obscure the real issues that are at the heart of the matter -

* Access Ministries are liars (stamping your feet and holding your breath doesn't change this)
* They have complete contempt and disregard for binding legal contracts - and by extension, contempt for the rule of law (which they are above), the government and other citizens
* They continue to siphon money from the public purse while fully aware they are breaching those contracts

There is an endless list of other sleazy behaviour from Access which includes flash-mobbing polls, and an army of shills poisoning newspaper and online forums such as this one to deceptively create an illusion broad public support when in fact that support would absolutely shatter Access were any kind of referendum be held on the issue. Plain english - they would find their ass kicked to the curb before they could blink by the ordinary silent majority. This fills them with terror.

So Access employs shills like you to play sleight of hand on the rest of us to cover up the basic facts - Access are LIARS and they siphon revenue under FALSE PRETENCES.

The Access shills are unable to defend against the charges of deceptive bahavious because these charges are TRUE. So they resort to sophist reality manipulation, fallacious argument, smear (you just can't post anything without using the word "militant" can you?), strawmen and ad hominems - but regardless of how much noise you make, it doesn't alter the fact that they are grubby liars and cheats. Read this next line slowly several times -

RELIGION IS NOT EVEN THE PRIMARY ISSUE. THE ISSUE IS DECEPTION AND ETHICAL/MORAL BANKRUPTCY.

And Access are supposed to provide a moral example to are children? How can you say that with a straight face? [continued]

I have broken the Access abuse of trust and deception down at greater length here -

Access' tactics are broken down into two distinct thrusts -

The first is the concept of the divinely sanctioned lie, the concept of "taqiyya" borrowed from islam - that god is OK with lies for the greater good. This has been failing - the public no longer believe the lies, nor the lies claiming the lies aren't really lies at all.

The second is the now familiar squealing about "persecution" - this is handy because it does not need to address the issue of decpetion or fraud in any way. All you have to do is unleash the crocodile tears.

This two prong attack is the sum of all of Access' defense of their position. And their position is clear - they are liars and they cannot be trusted. Ever. Any promises to not do bad tings in future will be just more hollow taqiyya.

Access CRE contracts need to be shredded, all payments frozen and legal action initiated to recoup money fraudulently obtained thus far for breach of contract.

And if anybody sincerely wants their children to grow up with a solid moral grounding - keep them as far away from Access as possible.

Neglected to include link for the breakdown of Access behaviour -

http://greylining.wordpress.com/2011/05/17/the-passion-of-the-persecuted/

Wow, Franc Hoggle, you sure do a good job of throwing around wild accusations without providing a shred of supporting evidence for your claims.

As I keep saying, we need to quit focusing on the details, and quit being emotional and instead discuss the underlying presuppositions and fundamental ideas about the role of the church and the state. I keenly await for anyone to suggest a fairer alternative than the brief statement I gave my in my above post.

Trav says, "If anybody can suggest a fairer system than this, and a fairer set of governing principles than this I'd like to hear it."

Sure. The state should not privilege the convictions of any particular religious tradition, even a majority tradition, over the convictions of those who dissent from it, including nonbelievers. Religion should be self sufficient for the promotion of its own beliefs. Religion should not occupy a default privileged position in public institutions at the expense of taxpayers or the infringement of state neutrality on religion. Parliaments must be independent from religion in law & custom. Law & public policy must treat all equally regardless of religion. Religion must not be imposed on any public office or person. Taxes must fund public interests, not religious enterprise.