Dear Lea,

Unlike the former 5 movies, your latest link is gentle, civilized and orderly. Thank you for that!

This presentation depicts all believers of God at their worst and all atheists at their rosy best. In reality, examples abound of both believers and unbelievers that are (socially-speaking) angels and of others that are (socially-speaking) monsters. It is even quite common to find atheists that are more religious than the average believer as well as believers that are less religious than the average atheist!

I will endeavor to take apart each argument as time and space allows. I'll begin with this one:

The presentation claims that believers would inform Nazis that knock on their door that they hide Jews, in order to avoid lying. That is historically incorrect: there are many known cases of Christian monks and nuns who went to great lengths to save Jews and risked their life lying to the Germans "Jews? not here!".

Also, the 5 Yamas and 5 Niyamas are the yogic equivalents of the 10-commandments. The first Yama is AHIMSA (remember Gandhi?) - non-violence. The second is SATYAM - truth. The religious instructions are clear: Ahimsa comes first and Satyam is second. If there is ever a clash between them, then non-violence takes precedence over telling the truth, thus a religious yogi would never give away Jews to the Nazis in order to tell the truth.

Dear Joe,

"Meanwhile, in the real world of oppression and injustice and pain and deprivation, real people are suffering"

The cause of oppression is distancing oneself from God. A man who acknowledges that others are inherently divine as himself, would not wish to oppress others, treat them unjustly, hurt or deprive them.
The cause of suffering also, is distancing oneself from God by identifying instead with the human body, its needs and desires. A man who truly understands that being human is a temporary condition would not be affected and shaken by the afflictions of the body.
The only reality underlying what seems as "the world", is God. Realizing this, one is freed from enmity and suffering.

Hi Yuyutsu,

Thanks for demonstrating my observation that one can embroider, re-fashion, up-date, fantasise and conjure up whatever one likes from a questionable body of written work put together long ago by people with vested interests. Meanwhile, the world moves on, 'laden with happiness and tears', regardless.

Keep spinning, I'm sure it can be great fun :)

Joe

Hi Joe,

"one can embroider, re-fashion, up-date, fantasise and conjure up whatever one likes from a questionable body of written work put together long ago by people with vested interests."

- Sounds to me just what humanists are doing!

You mentioned some unspecified "vested interests". Do you think I also have vested interests?

Well, I do have one:

To prevent the persecution of my people, those who love God (regardless of our specific beliefs or even the lack thereof), by the emerging materialist/humanist/environmentalist culture.
To protect us against being thrown once more to the lions, gulags, re-education camps and mental hospitals, or from having our children taken away from us to be brought up as humanists.

Yes, the world moves on and it is my vested interest to defend ourselves from being forcefully dragged along in that sad direction which the world is taking.

Hi Yuyutsu,

" .... a questionable body of written work put together long ago by people with vested interests."

Wow ! What a reaction one can get, using a small stick :)

Hey, was that you, back there in the fifth century BC or whenever ?

I support your right to believe as you do, free from harassment or discrimination, provided you abide by the common law of the country, and provided your religion does not in turn discriminate against or harass, say, women, and allows them also the freedom to exercise all the rights recognised by the secular state.

A secular state properly recognises everybody's right TO their religion, and an equal right FROM religion. It does not recognise any right by any religion to put demands on the state for preferential or differential treatment.

And no, I would not support your being sent to some gulag or laogai, or for your children to be taken from you, unless it is relevant to your pretty drastically breaking of the law.

But nobody is arguing for Christians to be thrown to the lions Yuyutsu. That is an absurd suggestion. I am sure you don't really believe that is what is being suggested (even metaphorically).

Many humanists and secularists are Christian. These terms are not mutually exclusive.

"The cause of oppression is distancing oneself from God. A man who acknowledges that others are inherently divine as himself, would not wish to oppress others, treat them unjustly, hurt or deprive them."

Nice words and great if it works, but history shows it doesn't. What about all the murder and oppression done in the name of God.

God is not a good tool for ensuring peace, man needs to look to himself for a peace based in reality to that end.

Yuyutsu......yes, pelican is right. Indoctrinate your own children! Why do you need ours? Only parasites needs a host.

I was going to back away on this subject, but the E-mails wouldn't stop, as I see it, and if its any consultation....Christianity is the least of our problems. However.....change must be slow, for a equal transitional balance that comes with the evolution of man. Love and virtues that is teached by religion, has put us all here......but as you, or some might not think......Times do change and we are a flawed creation:) See! as I see it! Bullies like in schools, need to be taught a lesson, and I feel for those that do think they have a choice.

My respects for the journey of mankind, will always hold a close and private place for me, and so it should for all others. Religion is and should be, a private thing while the conscious minds of mankind develops in such a way......we all understand it.

Until then.......we are all but guessing.

To all religious people which are human!

We are all the same organism:)

So what are you fighting about:)

Idiots:)

LEA