you know, I reckon the government should start sharing information on the various conventions and international agreements they sign up to, before they sign up .. before elections even

how about the people get a look in at what on earth is being signed up to

why do we find out later, some time later, that Oh Australia is a signatory to this or that and then it is used to cuff us under the ear to get back into line .. "we're a signatory! How dare you question it or say it should not be so!"

Cluster munitions are not very nice, agreed .. but this article like so many others (on different subjects) assumes a stance immediately that accuses Australians of not doing our "duty" according to some or other international convention

If you want to talk about duty, isn't it the duty of government to serve the people? Not sign up to things secretly then tell us they have a mandate to do so

no you don't ..

if someone wants to put up a platform for election based on reviewing all our agreements, I'd be very interested in taking a look at that, it seems the wealth of Australia is being drained away by frivolous shopping around for ego and this needs to stop and the people decide whether it's what we want politicians doing

Far be it from me to be a bleeding heart, but I just cant see how any army can still use these things. Surely their are other options. We can fight the enemy with this small handicap if not.

Kills kiddies for years on end after the war. We ban chemical warfare why cant we ban these.

I am an American living in Australia, and I wish that the compassion of Malcolm Fraser was in both the Australian and US government. Like cluster munitions depleted uranium and land mines also harm civilians during and after the conflict. Nations that use any of them are not civilised whatever they may claim.

davidf .. you can have him .. let's face it, when he was Minister for Army sending boys to die in Vietnam he had a slightly different attitude.

When he was in power he made a famous statement regarding people who complained how much tax they were paying and how their lives were difficult .. Malcolm, coming from a wealthy family, a country "squire", and always had a plum in his mouth .. his 'compassionate' response, "life wasn't meant to be easy" (not unlike someone who said, "let them eat cake)

he is trying to rewrite his place in history now, but he will be ever remembered as a man who did nothing, with both houses and nation building potential .. nothing.

Cluster bombs used by the US, self detonate after a time .. cluster bombs by less sophisticated countries do not .. as far as I know we have never bought cluster bombs(?)

other remedies .. no, when you are determined to kill people, being kind to the environment is a side issue.

Dear rpg,

Your criticism of him in office is spot on. That is the way it was during his term.

However, our behaviour and ideas are not fixed in concrete. I look back on my life and realise how flawed and wrong some of my actions have been. I hope I am a better person now than I was then. My wife seems to think so. At least she says so.

Maybe Fraser also is now a better person then when he was when in office.

Are bombs a necessity of life?

Dear rpg

re
"Cluster bombs used by the US, self detonate after a time .. cluster bombs by less sophisticated countries do not ... "

Who told you that?

Cluster bombs used by the US in Iraq and Afghanistan don't
"self-detonate". I expect that the solid majority of cluster duds go off when humans or livestock disturb them. They are nasty, unpredictable items, not even useful as IED's.

Think about it, rpg - a cluster bomb canister with 300 bombies and a bombie failure rate of 1% will leave three duds for every bomb dropped. If the failure rate is higher, as it was in Lao PDR, or more recently in the middle-east, then the duds per CBU increases. As the OpEd says, civilians are the victims, and life is hard enough for people in Afghanistan and Iraq (and other current and former SE Asian and Middle-East combat zones) without adding the challenges of surviving as a disabled person in an informal economy. Is that how you would want to live? Assuming you lead a charmed life, your circumstances will be influenced by others who aren't so lucky.

The validity of Mr Fraser's argument has nothing to do with how he, as a member of parliament, behaved in 1975, or before or after. Ask yourself: do you want to live somewhere there are cluster bomb duds? This essay is not about "The Man'. It's about a pressing humanitarian issue, and a UN treaty to see it right, and how we as Australians should be supporting this visionary treaty, with strong and enabling legislation.

I appreciate your opinions about surprises, regarding the international treaties we Australians have acceded to, but I can only recommend that you get in there and research a bit more about our international commitments to ourselves and other nations. It's easy for me, because I'm more interested in public affairs than I am in "Top Gear".

You show interest enough to read the OpEd and express an opinion. I wish a whole bunch of our government and opposition parliamentarians would make a similar effort

surviva "Who told you that? " US Army officials, Why?

What do you know about current US sub-munitions specifications?

"Think about it", don't need to I know the facts. I don't sit around reading dribble and then assuming I know something about a particular field .. do you? oh ..

"The validity of Mr Fraser's argument " again, read what I said .. I was responding to Davdf's soulful sighing and fond wishes that, "if only the US had MFraser" .. they can have him, for the reasons I stated, you can't just turn things around to try to cover your tracks .. Mal will never have credibility .. ever

(I didn't mention 1975)

don't scold me for what you think I said .. I'm happy to be educated

"It's easy for me, because I'm more interested in public affairs than I am in "Top Gear"

I've never watched it .. care to try again?

Just say it .. without the silly little innuendos, man up for once .. jeez, no wonder you want to buddy up to Mal

Dear rpg

re your comments:

"surviva "Who told you that? " US Army officials, Why?"

I've been on the cluster bombs issue for 9 years or so. Still, that's no reason you should accept my word without question. There is plenty of information available on the internet, about effects and failure rates of cluster bombs.

Here are two articles, one from 2006, "Fatal Footprint":
http://www.mineaction.org/downloads/1/Fatal_Footprint_HI_report_on_CM_casualties.1.pdf

and

http://bit.ly/dR7zMN

Copyright (c) 2000 University of Michigan Law School
Michigan Journal of International Law
ARTICLE: FOOTPRINTS OF DEATH: CLUSTER BOMBS AS INDISCRIMINATE WEAPONS UNDER INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN LAW
Fall, 2000
22 Mich. J. Int'l L. 85
Author
Virgil Wiebe*
Excerpt [from] Introduction

"Cluster bombs are indiscriminate weapons. The inherent nature of cluster bombs as wide-area munitions, at a minimum, should make their use illegal in civilian areas, as the risk of civilian casualties is prohibitively high. Unexploded bomblets act as de facto landmines after initial use, making them indiscriminate killers for decades to come. 2 In light of these characteristics, a moratorium on the use, production, trade, and stockpiling of cluster bombs should be implemented immediately. This moratorium should lead to banning their use, production, transfer and stockpiling through international treaty."

rpg, why not ask your Army official for an opinion of the above information? Kindly let me know what he/she says.

It has been a long time since I was interested in weapons production, but from my memory I am aware that western armies were concerned about the longevity of weapons such as landmines and other munitions. Anti personell and anti vehicle cluster bombs especially had a high failure rate when used on soft surfaces such as sand, and this posed a serious danger to advancing allied troops, or even civilians after hostilities ceased.

It was speculated twenty years ago, that it would be a simple matter to make land mines and cluster bomblets self detonate after a set time, defuse themselves after a set time, and even make them biodegradable. Every person reading this article knows that this is hardly beyond our technology.

But the author of this article makes no mention of this, he just wants to ban cluster bombs, and that is that.

Cluster bombs are a very effective weapon, they were especially effective in the Gulf War against Saddam's army and were one of the reasons why Allied casualties were so low, while enemy casualties were very high. I do not know of any civilian casualties by cluster bombs during that conflict.

I think that the author of this article is just another pacifist who objects to every effective weapon on the grounds that they kill people

The UN and all countries and peoples interested could have a convention making war criminals of all makers, users and distributers of cluster bombs, land mines and agent orange.

Banning does not go far enough.

The enemies made thru using these weapons far outnumber the temporary gain.

The enemies who follow a bad example make it even worse.