The National Forum   Donate   Your Account   On Line Opinion   Forum   Blogs   Polling   About   
The Forum - On Line Opinion's article discussion area



Syndicate
RSS/XML


RSS 2.0

Main Articles General

Sign In      Register

The Forum > Article Comments > Not all leaks are created equal > Comments

Not all leaks are created equal : Comments

By Antony Loewenstein, published 11/2/2011

When it comes to unknown unknowns, Wikileaks is head and shoulders the best source.

  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. 4
  6. 5
  7. Page 6
  8. 7
  9. All
Good points, Hazza.

As an old socialist, I've come to believe that genuine socialism will only ever be brought about as an IMPROVEMENT ON democracy, something building on, expanding and enriching democracy, rather than as an ALTERNATIVE TO it.

And a strong measure of transparency is vital to a strong and healthy democratic political life.

Ergo, transparency is necessary, in the extremely long run, for genuine socialism to ever succeed. - including transparency within its own organisations - at least, no secret plans to go back on the promises that get them into power - no 'land to the tillers' today and 'collectivise now' tomorrow, and butcher off whoever objects.

Like that Murdoch lickspittle, Greg Sheridan, I've been surprised at how little US nefariousness the Wikileaks have shown up so far. Surely they plot and plan the overthrow of defenceless and popular [i.e., anti-US] governments ? The invasion of weak countries for economic gain ? The spreading of lies and instability against governments they want to overthrow ? Collusion with vile dictatorships ?

So where is the evidence of it ?

Either Arjay is close to the mark, that Assange is a US double-agent, or the US does not demonstrate remarkable evil, at least not in its emails ?

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Tuesday, 15 February 2011 11:56:13 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Indeed Loudmouth- or to put it in another light, the more refined a democracy becomes (and the more we get into the use of referenda and less on reliance on party-politics), the better suited it is to adjust its own system to incorporate which elements and principles of a range of systems, and the balance of civil rights to a manner that more precisely suits the need of the public at large, instead of having to pick and choose which packaged-deal is most tolerable.

Of course, party stances towards different policy could be for anything, from vested interests to opposition for the sake of posturing- and of course, if either of these were leaked, it would save us a LOT of time on parties pushing for, or blocking policy on dodgy grounds.

For evidence damning the USA (and other countries) - there are plenty of dirty deals covered by the leaks- it's more a case that not many people seem to have actually noticed them, care about them as issues, or simply fail to realize how serious they are.
It is also a matter that for a government department to send a message (especially via an embassy), they would keep semantics out of it in case it WAS leaked or stolen (they would always have a minimum of information without pages of the national leaders' feelings which he can simply express on his next visit in private).

For example- the Saudis requesting the US government invade Iran shows collusion with a dictatorship and conspiring with them to invade another country. Of course, why the King wants it is anyone's guess (desperate plea for protection from a rogue nation- or a dodgy deal to bump off a rival)?
Only the basic demand is necessary, the rest can wait instead of risk sending in the mail, essentially.
Posted by King Hazza, Tuesday, 15 February 2011 9:01:23 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
And as I understand it, Hazza, not just Saudi Arabia but other Arab (mainly Sunni) countries demanded that the US launch attacks against (Shi'ite) Iran, but the US has declined, or at least prevaricated.

Of course, no foreign minister would be so half-witted, one would think, as to set out all of his/her complaints, demands, suspicions and insults in emails: as you point out, they would save them for face-to-face meetings. So, from one point of view, no wonder we don't find much incriminating in the Wikileaks, but from another point of view, they may not be there to begin with. Take your pick :)

From my own point of view, the US - anti-US is not the only dynamic in town: what well may be looming as more serious is a democracy-vs-fundamentalism dynamic. We'll see if and when the dust settles in the Middle East, and elsewhere.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Tuesday, 15 February 2011 10:24:04 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I disagree with the US/Anti-US dynamic Loudmouth.
A lot of people are assuming (or trying their best to portray) the Wikileaks movement as little more than an anti-US/anarchist vendetta mob, when motives could vary from anti-US, to staunchly Pro-US patriotic in some forms (eg the "I want the best for my country"/"I want my country to run ethically" persons- to staunch First-Amendment advocates, and Democracy advocates- or just generally percieve only positive changes to occur from leaking misconduct.
Posted by King Hazza, Wednesday, 16 February 2011 3:56:23 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Hazza,

Yes, but above and beyond all that, what well may be looming as more serious is a democracy-vs-fundamentalism dynamic. I don't mean just the US, but all-of-modern-society vs. a fundamentalist return to pre-capitalism and autocracy, that sort of world-wide and to-the-death struggle. A sort of re-run of the Thirty Years' War, but across most of the world and with nukes. I hope that doesn't sound too hysterical and over-blown :)

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Wednesday, 16 February 2011 6:09:14 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Wikileaks is much more than it's perceived anti-US agenda. If a government seeks to abuse its power the "anti" comes from those actions not via others who by contrast seek to expose them. Many other nations other than the US have fared badly in these exposures. Corruption will always fare badly, and it is kneejerk to shoot the messenger than seek for internal reform in the first instance.

It is doubtful that the US, even with pressure from the ultra-Conservative wing, will ever charge Julian Assange with a crime, thus far it is only the rhetoric that is contributing to the hysteria. However for the person involved, Assange, even aggressive rhetoric calling for his assassination must give one pause for thought and fears of personal safety.

However, despite recent polling in the US showing 70% support for a judicial case against Assange and Wikileaks, I think many Americans who support support WL and the concept of better democracy are largely muffled by all the anti-WL noise. It was afterall pressure from within that led to withdrawal from Vietnam in particular after the release of the Pentagon Papers. The US has been down this road before.

US Ambassador Bleich made some more reasoned comments recently, probably influenced by the overwhelming support for Assange in Australia and worldwide.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/02/11/3135975.htm
Posted by pelican, Wednesday, 16 February 2011 11:32:14 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. 4
  6. 5
  7. Page 6
  8. 7
  9. All

About Us :: Search :: Discuss :: Feedback :: Legals :: Privacy