BOAZ-David, Like ID proponents claim of scientists saying evolution is the the best theory open our eyes to the facts as others have seen. Christianity like every other religion in the world have components of the beliefs from older religions. The catholic church has borrowed extensively form the Eqyptian sun worshipping as indicated in my last posting. Noahs flood come from the ancient Summerian and Babylonian floods stories when Tigris and Euphrates rivers flooded. So using the same arguments these facts must be taught in religious studies (as well as other religions and their history) to give students all the facts and let them have choice.

As to your arm . The power of the mind is a powerful thing.

Grey, along with most other religious blanks, you fail miserably to uphold your arguments. A deep flaw within the oppressed enslaved ideologists, is their inability to understand truth and implement it as truth, rather than try to delude with fantasy. You attempt to label me as hypocritical, because I accept others beleifs, I call it understanding. Then state, that I am trying to push my philosophy upon you, when you have no idea of my beleifs or philosophy and probably couldn't understand them.

That is just a typical act of the drowning religious, clutching at straws as their beliefs are rapidly being shown for what they are. You can fool blindfolded fools, but you can't fool unmasked reality.

As you claim to be science orientated, explain the substance or medium called space, from an ID and or IC understanding. What that represents, how and for what reason was it designed. If all things have been created in finality, what is ID's plan for the future of this creation and the aim. Also you have still failed to explain where the daughter in laws of Adam and eve came from.

Why, if ID or IC, created paradise that gave the original humans everything they needed, did the ID create a flaw for them to use and wreck the ID. What relationship and reason is there for the rest of the universe in ID, if the only intelligent reasoning beings in existence, reside on this planet.

Philo, so god is outside of physical science eh, that would mean god is in another dimension, wouldn't it.

BD, could you please refer us to the link or address of the medical facility that holds the x ray's of your arm, showing the broken bone and the subsequent x ray's taken within 24hrs of that one, showing total healing of the bone. I am sure you would convince many with that unscientific evidence, against the veracity of your words.

Actually, not a bad request, Alchemist.

Sincerely BD, if you could provide permission to view both the before and after x-rays – you just may have me thinking more deeply regarding God (Surely, a change of that magnitude would have all the doctors falling over themselves to check out, wouldn’t it?).

Care to advise your doctor/hospital that a group of people will be dropping in for a viewing?

Imagine that after life, there is Heaven, but no Hell.
This would negate our freedom. How could we choose to be with God if we would just have to go to Heaven anyway? There would be no choice. No freedom.
The main pain of Hell is the pain of loss- loss of that priceless opportunity. The physical pain, (which, although it is worse than any pain here), is nothing compared to this pain of loss.

I think, Alchemist, you were referring to the tree that Adam and Eve ate the fruit from. This too proves freedom. If there were no tree or whatever, then there would be no opportunity to choose to be obedient. No freedom; they would be obedient as robots are obedient.
Through disobedience we were lost and through obedience (of Christ) we were redeemed.

Substance of Space? As in Nothing? It does not have a substance. It is called space because it is the distance from and between matter.
(A field is the field of an object- gravitational, electrostatic, magnetic, etc)
You cannot measure this "space" you are reffering to. You can only measure the distance from and between objects.
Grab a ruler and take it away from all the matter and say, "there, 30 cm." But you will only be measuring the ruler.

God is not "within a universe". This is paradoxical because it implies that He is contained by laws. Rather, all things are within God.

[snort] Grey, you cannot be serious!

>>'Actually kenny, over 80% of the american population believe that ID is correct.'<<

now becomes:

>>"check the gallup poll of October 13... 'Which of the following statements comes closest to your views on the origin and development of human beings' to which respondents answered 53% for creation, 31% for God guided evolution. Both of these are consistent with ID."<<

If you look again at Gallup's findings, they are - and I quote their report verbatim -

"Americans are more likely to endorse a purely creationist view of the origin of humans than a purely evolutionary view or a view involving elements of both. Majorities of the public say evolution and creationism should be taught in public school science classes, while fewer believe intelligent design should be taught."

They add "It is unclear exactly how well Americans understand the different theories."

If you are going to use statistics, especially those that can be checked, it is prudent to use them honestly. You have patently not done this. I can only reiterate my previous point, that you simply invent stuff to support your argument. No attempt at intellectual rigour, simply a blatant attempt to subvert the discussion by lying through your teeth.

Unfortunately, this sloppy and devious behaviour encourages others.

Jeshua wrote: "Spirituality is reported to be of interest to 80% of the College population and Spirituality is being introduced into curriculums especially in medical schools - 50% of US schools."

Once again, quote your source please Jeshua. You don't want to end up like Grey, a proven fibber.

Philo,
I believe that all Creation is totally awe inspiring and not insulting at all. Scientific understanding increases my awe not only in the Creation but in the capacity and intelligence of my fellow Man.

ID is, and giving it too much credit, a hypothesis on the evolution of life on this planet (not as you suggested the creation of the world/everything).

Michael Bene, an ID proponent, does accept that life did evolve by natural selection and all life on this planet evolved from a common ancestor; this opinion is not held by all ID advocates.

But he then goes on to say that because there are structures that he observes that he can’t imagine evolving by chance then they have to be designed by an Intelligent Designer; Note: Bene has not, at least directly, equated the Intelligent Designer to God, although most ID proponents do.

Why should people be insulted by this?

Well ID is just bad science and logic. Bene not understanding how something complex evolved via the rules of the Theory of Evolution does not automatically imply that there is an Intelligent Designer. To claim so is a lie.

At best all Bene has shown is that there exist structures that the Theory of Evolution can’t possibly account for. Even if this did prove to be the case it does not automatically imply the existence of some Designer, all it would prove is the Theory of Evolution is not totally accurate. It should be pointed out that most of what Bene claims to be “Irreducibly Complex” has been show to be reducible.

I also find the dishonesty involved insulting. The ID movement pretends that they are not talking about God, but some Intelligent Designer. They are trying to present what is metaphysical in a way that can be considered physical. In essence they are denying God as a way to foist their fundamental religious beliefs on others.

There are things that are outside science and should not be considered or taught as science, to pretend otherwise is I believe a lie and therefore an insult to intelligence.